Fox News was and is an old people thing. (Look at who advertises on them.)
Fake News hit all age groups and hit the left and the right.
Clinton: 'I was on the way to winning' until Comey, Russia intervened
- Thread starter chubigans
- Start date
Fake News hit all age groups and hit the left and the right.
Pre-Comey letter she was leading by up to 5-6 points in all of the states that ended up flipping... There was no way her campaign would have been able to predict that letter or its impact and nothing she could do in the last days could reverse it.
They got it bad, but it absolutely multiplied in the last few years. Part of it is because of the proliferation of social media and part is the Russians taking advantage of the issues inherent in social media. Basically social media fucked us pretty hard this cycle.
Dude Abides
Banned
She campaigned in PA plenty and still lost it, so the notion that her physical presence was a crucial factor is not very reality-based.
Auto_aim1
MeisaMcCaffrey
It doesn't matter how many votes he got. She required 100k in three states to win the presidency. You know the states she ignored.
She campaigned in the cities of Philadelphia and Pittsburgh but not much out of the Urban areas. As someone who goes to Coal ountry Western PA all the time I heard a lot of talk about how Trump would go out there to the nowhere towns while Hillary was nowhere to be seen.
Before the Comey letter (i.e. on Oct 28) she was up 50/43 vs. Trump in Wisconsin.
sugarhigh4242
Banned
Obama got it from Clinton in the form of muslim-baiting:
Clinton aides claim Obama photo wasn't intended as a smear
And this one from Clinton saying Obama is not a Muslim "as far as I know":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHFREDHB-nQ
She's disgusting.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
That's possible it wasn't a factor, but -
1. Compared to what control, though? We don't know if she would have done better or worse if she hadn't been in PA.
2. Some Democrats have said that she campaigned in the wrong way in PA.
https://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/11/10/us/politics/hillary-clinton-campaign.html
that's still not an excuse but there is also the possibility that the polls were not totally accurate
I mean, you are comparing apples to ...apple juice; the polls or poll aggregates vs the actual election. I'd take that comparison with some salt
Dude Abides
Banned
I agree it's unknowable, but people keep asserting it as if it's been established that was a reason she lost. The idea that retail campaigning in a national election is significant seems dubious on its face.
Fast Forward
Member
Yep.
Hannity, in particular, during the 08 election, would not shut up about Obama being a COMMUNITY ORGANIZER.
And then there was the stuff with Rev. Wright, and Bill Ayers.
Not to mention, the birther movement, or Glenn Beck's hundred different wacky conspiracy theories about Obama.
The point is that she had every rational reason to assume Wisconsin was safe before the Comey letter was released. It made sense to focus her energies elsewhere, since time is limited.
There was no real time between the letter's release and subsequent polls to shift strategies before the election.
Her assertion that the Comey letter / Russia flipped the election is relatively sound, given what happened to her in the polls after the letter's release.
Suikoguy
I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
This is a real issue as opposed to the "in-person" campaign fallacy.
If/when they withheld resources from areas that requested or needed them, and existing areas already had adequate resources, that's a significant tactical mistake.
Spending time at a Donor dinner is an effective use of time if it means more resources for areas that need it, a waste of time if it's wasted resources.
The Birther thing didn't pick up steam until after Obama was elected, and most Americans were aware that it was obvious bullshit.
The Fake News against Clinton was Corruption (which was bullshit) and Treason (also bullshit), helped along by the fact that most Americans don't know how government works. So you have a bunch of people who constantly confuse breaking administrative rules of a government agency with breaking an actual law. Add to that the public view of the FBI as federal cops and you see people confuse the FBI investigating Clinton's email server (which happened) with the FBI running a criminal investigation into Clinton (which did not).
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
Okay, but that is irrelevant to whether or not what I just wrote was an important factor in her campaign.
My feeling is that yes, it has grown, but it has grown with the pace of the internet in general. It just seems larger because more people are wising up to the game. And it's a game anyone can play.
I think the biggest reason people are dogpiling her on this statement is because she never qualifies what mistakes she made personally.
It's a little disingenuous to say "what, you want an itemized list of all the mistakes her campaign ever made!?" when, to my knowledge, she's never publicly acknowledged the criticisms about her campaign schedule or decisions that clearly put off progressives and independents.
It's weird to see people so willing to accept that she "takes full responsibility" when she doesn't have a thing to say about the mistakes she made, but has a lot to say about factors she's already gone on about again and again. Sure, anyone in her position would want to deflect to Comey and Wikileaks, since they were damaging factors outside of her control, but that's not really taking responsibility, not in spirit.
Edit: Also, I find it kind of weird that she can say "I was on the way to winning," when it's generally accepted that the pollsters were way off. Didn't they only get an indication that Trump was going to win the day of the election? Just because the polls dipped after Comey's letter doesn't necessarily mean they were on the money in the first place... right?
It's a little disingenuous to say "what, you want an itemized list of all the mistakes her campaign ever made!?" when, to my knowledge, she's never publicly acknowledged the criticisms about her campaign schedule or decisions that clearly put off progressives and independents.
It's weird to see people so willing to accept that she "takes full responsibility" when she doesn't have a thing to say about the mistakes she made, but has a lot to say about factors she's already gone on about again and again. Sure, anyone in her position would want to deflect to Comey and Wikileaks, since they were damaging factors outside of her control, but that's not really taking responsibility, not in spirit.
Edit: Also, I find it kind of weird that she can say "I was on the way to winning," when it's generally accepted that the pollsters were way off. Didn't they only get an indication that Trump was going to win the day of the election? Just because the polls dipped after Comey's letter doesn't necessarily mean they were on the money in the first place... right?
She admitted personal responsibility in this very interview.
Did you read what I wrote at all?
TestOfTide
Banned
I didn't say that Obama didn't get it bad. But compare how Obama got it to how Hillary got it. Obama dealt with a few crazies screaming about him being a Kenyan muslim socialist. Meanwhile Hillary was accused of:
- Running a Child Sex Slavery Ring out of a Pizza Parlor
- Murdering 4 people at a US embassy
- Starting birtherism
- bullying Bill Clinton's accusers
- Rigging the 2016 primaries
- Being a war-monger (even though I doubt a war monger would have pushed for the Iran Nuclear Deal) and a republican-lite
- Being a far left socialist
- Being in near dying health
- Using her private email server to coordinate every heinous crime there is
- Running her family's charity as a slush fund
And that's just off the top of my head.
And I say that the fake news stuff is connected to Russia because there is documented proof that the past few years Russia has been employing trolls and botnets to spread fake news that is favorable to them. Russia isn't even ONLY doing it in the US. They are doing it all over Europe and they even did it in Ukraine.
This isn't me deflecting blame from Hillary. I'm just pointing out that fake news has become a very real problem that needs to be addressed ASAP.
shoplifter
Member
"Buy my book and you can find out how I misused all of the money you donated to my campaign!"
Dude Abides
Banned
She-Witch Clinton must flagellate herself until the end of time. No lesser punishment can hope to atone for the cardinal sin of denying Saint Bernard his rightful place next to William Jennings Bryan and FDR in the pantheon.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
In situations like this, I defer to experts who can back up their philosophy with results. If winners like Rendell and Obama say that's what you gotta do, then I can't really doubt their credibility this issue. Are there any quotes from winning candidates who have said that showing up in person didn't really matter for them?
Those issues are intertwined, however. The general thrust of the "in person" argument would entail the "but you need to do it the right way" clause as well.
President Obama 2x winner said:
there is this mentality that states cannot be flipped. before the election, the blue wall was unflippable. after the election, you are now saying that the rust belt could not have been flipped by Clinton's presence
so basically everything is predetermined forever, except that the fool, idiot guy who said it could happen, went, flipped the states and is now president
yes, as a reaction to the Comey letter, Clinton going there could not have preserved those states. Or maybe she could, the voter advantage for Trump was sometimes minimal. but the important part is that it should NOT have gotten there in the first place. the campaign was poorly planned, poorly ran, and to blame the last few days of it when it had ran for several months is crazy
the whole Blue Wall idea was dangerous, and Nate Silver warned of it loooong before Comey and the russians hackers came around
El_Tiguere
Member
I'll come back to address your points and your PM, but this...
You are the one spewing the laughable "my side is pure and wholesome, just look at those Repugs!!" BS. If you can't look at the speck of sawdust in your own eye (and why the world has become anti status quo) then you are the one living in blissful ignorance.
You are the one spewing the laughable "my side is pure and wholesome, just look at those Repugs!!" BS. If you can't look at the speck of sawdust in your own eye (and why the world has become anti status quo) then you are the one living in blissful ignorance.
wait
she admitted fault in benghazi
she did not murder them but she accepted it was all her fault
but unlike this instance, she did not stop to say 'but in reality it was all the fault of those russians and comey'
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
you .... disagree with Nate Silver's article about the blue wall??
you disagree that the campaign was ran on shaky grounds?
Disagree that continuing to respond to each other is worth our time, apparently.
TestOfTide
Banned
Except I have numerous times in this thread said how Hillary's campaign screwed up.
Meanwhile you claim to be SUCH a progressive but refuse to do anything to actually help the more progressive party of the two.
And we went over this. It's not "anti status quo" that is sweeping the world. It's right wing populist bullshit.
Tell me, in the French Run-Off, do you support Macron or Le Pen? Something tells me you'll give some BS excuse for why you refuse to support Macron.
You don't get what I am saying. I know numerous right wing lunatics who, due to fake news, LITERALLY think that Hillary committed murder with regards to Benghazi.
Hillary said that her department fucked up, but she never claimed to have deliberately murdered those people.
Dude Abides
Banned
In situations like what? Where the experts confirm your priors? Ed Rendell has never run a national campaign so I'm not sure why you're appealing to his authority. Hillary had plenty of experts involved with her campaign.
You are the one not backing it up with any relevant data and keep saying both sides. The ignorance of your posts are pretty crazy.
When she says:
"I take full responsibility for having lost, but if it wasn't for Comey and the Russian Wikileaks I'd be your president right now"
It's clear that she's putting saving face over showing humility in the face of her loss. It's the way CEOs "take full responsibility" when it's clear they would rather do nothing of the sort. Whereas if she said something along the lines of:
"I take full responsibility for having lost. There are tough decisions in every election and you never know how things are going to work out. Maybe we should have campaigned more in the rust belt. Maybe we should have made more commercials focusing on policy rather than talking about Trump's behavior... I still believe Comey's letter and the Russian Wikileaks were the biggest reasons why I lost, but I can't deny there were certain things that I could have done better."
It would seem like she actually wants us to believe she understands where she went wrong. And she still doesn't have to completely drop the Comey/Russia angle. Doing it the other way just keeps the emphasis on the things outside of her control, which comes off like deflecting the blame even more.
"Blue Wall" based on prior elections is and always was a BS theory.
"Wisconsin looks safe" based on polls is actually making campaign decisions based on what's available and what's discernible from the current cycle's data, and that's what they did. Obviously they were wrong.
But it is moot, because that's not why she lost the election. She lost PA and FL despite campaigning there and spending there, but those states were lost in the same White Wave that crushed IA, OH, MI, and WI.
You're deliberately misrepresenting her.
She is in the process of writing a book so she can say things precisely how she wants to. She will admit more mistakes, in detail, in the book.
She clearly hasn't said everything she wants to about the subject, and an interview about women's rights (i.e. her very first interview post-election) would not be the proper forum for a complete debrief of every mistake made during the election.
TestOfTide
Banned
THANK YOU. Someone finally understands what 2016 was: The Red Rural Wave Election
In fact, Hillary outperformed Obama in many suburban and urban counties, but Trump managed to get ridiculous turnout in red rural areas.
For example in Florida you had the goddamn panhandle outvoting the cities.
Let's be real: social media helps that shit spread faster and further than ever before. It also lends it an air of authenticity because you see it in the same places you see actual news.
Also, it's not just the growth of the internet. Are you forgetting the fact the Russians have warehouses full of people literally making and spreading this shit now? That's not something they were doing 8 or even 4 years ago.
El_Tiguere
Member
LOL the very same French election where Macron won BECAUSE he was an anti-establishment newbie? So you see... your right wing populist bullshit movement had no legs in France I guess.
P.S. right wing populism has its roots in economic anxiety too, but don't let that burst your identity politics bubble.
"Every mistake"
There's the disingenuousness again. If she can list off 2 factors that influenced her loss outside of her control it's not too crazy to think she could have at least mentioned 2 factors within her control. You know, while she's taking responsibility and all.
The fact that it's a women's forum is irrelevant, considering she was being interviewed, at that moment, about her loss in the election. Comey and Wikileaks have nothing to do with women's rights either.
TestOfTide
Banned
hahahahahaha you are calling Macron the antiestablishment candidate oh that's rich. You realize that Macron is literally running on neoliberalism to appeal to moderates on both sides, right?
There you go again complaining about identity politics in the EXACT same manner as the alt-right MR PROGRESSIVE
And no, right wing populism has its roots in a combination of economic anxiety and straight up bigotry with nice dose of deliberate fascism.
We clearly disagree. Let's leave it at that.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
"Situations likes these" = cases where we're only going by our own hunches due to lack of testable evidence, in which case I look to the experience of others who have achieved results. In this case, I can find a lot of quotes where winners have said "yeah, it matters", but not a lot of quotes where winners have said, "nah, it didn't matter that much". It's not evidence, sure, but at the same time it's not something I can easily ignore.
I'm appealing more to the authority of President Obama, actually.
Hillary had experts who don't have a good track record of winning, like Mook who is batting a 0.500 and Brazile who is batting a zero.
People were never this harsh on Gore, Kerry, McCain, Romney, Dole, etc.
The degree to which people demand Hillary to crucify herself (and she better pay for her own fucking nails) seems rabid and insane. My God.
I really can't reconcile any of it other than viewing sexism as some kind of hatred multiplier.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
Uh, yes, then you're agreeing with me that it has grown with the pace of the internet in general.
Did you not read the second part of my post?
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
You mean the part of your post where you described something that is only possible nowadays due to the growth of the internet?
TestOfTide
Banned
I agree that people are ridiculously harsh on Clinton, but stop thinking it has anything to do with gender.
It has to do with the fact that for 4 years the GOP ran a relentless nonstop campaign of blaming everything bad on Hillary.
Regardless, the fact remains that Fake News was a huge contributor to last year's results and is something that needs to be addressed ASAP. I would even go so far as to say it's just as important as any messaging issues the Dems have.
Similar threads
- Locked