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NYT: Democrats: Our Brand Is Worse Than Trump
- Thread starter Saucycarpdog
- Start date
sturgboski
Member
If you let the GOP media machine dictate the direction of the Democratic Party, you have a problem.
Problem is it works for the Bernie supporters (there has got to be a better description?) in the Democrat party. Rather than seeing the attack ads from the right as what they are, they go "yeah they are exactly right, let's burn it all down" much to the applause of the right.
Healthcare is their one killer issue. Democrats should have taken the Sanders line on healthcare long ago. Universal single-payer. Global warming and the environment is another strong issue. The public is not with the current administration on these issues.
They are invalids in the face of the most self-sabotaging president in modern history. The Democratic incompetence of the last few years is an absolute scandal. The current strategy is pitiful, "resistance" without any kind of clearly explicated worldview that the will inspire and be accepted by the majority of the country. The Democratic party doesn't have a big enough message to deal with the scale of the tensions and (justified) anxieties about the future that the country is wracked with.
They need to look deep into their history for a model of how to lead, back to the Kennedy era. They need to project a sense of confidence, informed patriotism, and socially cohesive inclusion. The Obama coalition was a moment, not the future. It is not holding together in the face of changing realities. The blue wall is broken. The Clinton campaign was breathtakingly tone-deaf in a way that history will find obvious and inexcusable. The embrace of fashionable identity politics has massively compromised the viability of the party as a national political force.
If the democrats don't radically re-think their core identity as a party, they'll hand the future to the Republicans, and increasingly the notable political narrative will be about the disputes between different Republican factions, not the challenge from the Democrats.
The Democrats can start the housecleaning by making clear that the Clintons and everything they represent should be consigned to the dust-heap of history, with all the contempt that they deserve.
They are invalids in the face of the most self-sabotaging president in modern history. The Democratic incompetence of the last few years is an absolute scandal. The current strategy is pitiful, "resistance" without any kind of clearly explicated worldview that the will inspire and be accepted by the majority of the country. The Democratic party doesn't have a big enough message to deal with the scale of the tensions and (justified) anxieties about the future that the country is wracked with.
They need to look deep into their history for a model of how to lead, back to the Kennedy era. They need to project a sense of confidence, informed patriotism, and socially cohesive inclusion. The Obama coalition was a moment, not the future. It is not holding together in the face of changing realities. The blue wall is broken. The Clinton campaign was breathtakingly tone-deaf in a way that history will find obvious and inexcusable. The embrace of fashionable identity politics has massively compromised the viability of the party as a national political force.
If the democrats don't radically re-think their core identity as a party, they'll hand the future to the Republicans, and increasingly the notable political narrative will be about the disputes between different Republican factions, not the challenge from the Democrats.
The Democrats can start the housecleaning by making clear that the Clintons and everything they represent should be consigned to the dust-heap of history, with all the contempt that they deserve.
Every powerful Dem is hated by the right. Who the fuck cares what the right wants. The claim was that there is no way someone could be hated so quickly. Hillary had great approvals into 2015. Despite the smear campaigns over the years.
Those were blown up overnight.
someone name three in office democrats that republicans do like
Have they maybe tried running on relevant and popular policy like single payer, college tuition, the minimum wage, or a jobs program around renewables in opposition to Trump's coal delusions, instead of betraying any claims to representation of minorities and working class people by fronting a candidate bleating about "the deficit", a narrative that plays right into the hands of state-shrinking republicans who will always, always come across as a more authentic representation of that kind of policy?
Eager to read thinkpieces about how running on popular issues is the wrong approach from the geniuses who lost to Donald fucking Trump.
If there are Republican voters who are still happy to vote for that party after 6 months of Trump, then they are a lost fucking cause and the Democrats should instead turn to the huge numbers of people who aren't voting at all. The exact thing they should have been doing in the GE, instead of "For every blue-collar Democrat we lose in western Pennsylvania, we will pick up two moderate Republicans in the suburbs in Philadelphia, and you can repeat that in Ohio and Illinois and Wisconsin."
Eager to read thinkpieces about how running on popular issues is the wrong approach from the geniuses who lost to Donald fucking Trump.
If there are Republican voters who are still happy to vote for that party after 6 months of Trump, then they are a lost fucking cause and the Democrats should instead turn to the huge numbers of people who aren't voting at all. The exact thing they should have been doing in the GE, instead of "For every blue-collar Democrat we lose in western Pennsylvania, we will pick up two moderate Republicans in the suburbs in Philadelphia, and you can repeat that in Ohio and Illinois and Wisconsin."
Autodidact
Banned
Yet another thread where young, "liberal," white heterosexual men (the main demographic of this forum) blame a woman and agree with an article's thesis that civil rights - sorry, "social issues" and "identity politics" - hinder electoral fortunes. Surely such an educated, compassionate forum couldn't contain privileged members of the majority who are either indifferent to or contemptuous of minority rights and pleas. Nah.
Some of you who complain about your Republican families at Thanksgiving and Christmas need to ask yourselves if you've really moved that far away from them. I mean that comment seriously, not facetiously. As mentioned above, sometimes you can internalize hateful rhetoric, allowing it to color your worldview subliminally even if you support liberal principles.
Some of you who complain about your Republican families at Thanksgiving and Christmas need to ask yourselves if you've really moved that far away from them. I mean that comment seriously, not facetiously. As mentioned above, sometimes you can internalize hateful rhetoric, allowing it to color your worldview subliminally even if you support liberal principles.
"Free" vs. "lower cost" is not a matter of semantics...
My only point in responding to your initial post is that you can't promise free college or free healthcare or free whatever, not because it's morally wrong, but because people won't believe it. Trump promised a bullshit solution to healthcare, but he certainly never said it was free. People believe Trump can deliver them something more while paying less, but they wouldn't believe he can deliver something more in exchange for paying nothing.
Well, he did promise free college tuition. Are are you going to argue that didn't happen?
And the point still stands- If you think someone can offer you better, more inclusive healthcare while lowering costs, you're a fucking idiot. So I have no idea what your main argument is other than to differentiate 'free' and 'lower cost'... Both of which any rational human being should be skeptical of right off the bat.
And the key to the left losing. The left doesn't coalesce under the Dems and vote for them to stop the right because they can't see the big picture: it is more important to vote the only party that has a chance of getting into office that hues closest to your ideals or at the least prevents the party that actively hates your ideals from getting into office. Instead, they rather just not vote or vote 3rd party. The left needs to realize it is a two party system and one side is absolutely against everything you stand for and you need to prevent them from getting into power.
It's interesting nobody has brought up the parallels to institutional racism. People love to suggest "Just play the game, it's your only choice" when the game is systematically stacked against you for historical reasons. And on a sociological level this will go over just as well.
Waiting for the Dems to embrace the progressive wing of the party and promote a platform centered on universal health care, college tuition and combating wealth inequality. A message that's easily discernible from the status quo, not just Republican-lite, vague references to job creation or "not Trump."
If the current leadership can't effectively communicate those ideals they need to step aside for those that can. It doesn't mean they're bad at their jobs or Dems are caving to caricatures from the right, it means they're not the right politicians for the right time anymore.
If the current leadership can't effectively communicate those ideals they need to step aside for those that can. It doesn't mean they're bad at their jobs or Dems are caving to caricatures from the right, it means they're not the right politicians for the right time anymore.
teruterubozu
Member
Republicans continue to successfully drive wedges in to the Democratic Party.
The wedge was there before Trump. Remember Bernstans vs Hillbots?
John Rabbit
Banned
I'll pretend for one post only that I can actually reason with the Hillary Faction.
Logically, by telling Bernie supporters to "let it go", you are telling them to accept the outcome of the primary and forever move on knowing that Hillary became the Presidential candidate in the general election.
If you follow YOUR OWN LOGIC, you must also "let it go" because you are also telling yourselves to accept the outcome of the general election and forever move on knowing that Trump became the President.
Logically, if you people cannot "let it go" that Trump is President, then following the same exact logic Bernie supporters also have the right to not "let it go". Do you understand?
The level of assumption in this post is staggering. I don't even understand what you're trying to communicate here.
If you let the GOP media machine dictate the direction of the Democratic Party, you have a problem.
They literally use the Democratic party and its supporters as a slur.
You could have fucking Superman running with a D they would choose Metallo because he's running as a R.
No need for fancy pansy articles or whatever, just listen to their rhetoric for the last 20 years, it's not a case of people being good or bad.
GoldenEye 007
Member
Maybe that senator from WV. That's one I could reasonably think of.someone name three in office democrats that republicans do like
Healthcare is their one killer issue. Democrats should have taken the Sanders line on healthcare long ago. Universal single-payer. Global warming and the environment is another strong issue. The public is not with the current administration on these issues.
They are invalids in the face of the most self-sabotaging president in modern history. The Democratic incompetence of the last few years is an absolute scandal. The current strategy is pitiful, "resistance" without any kind of clearly explicated worldview that the will inspire and be accepted by the majority of the country. The Democratic party doesn't have a big enough message to deal with the scale of the tensions and (justified) anxieties about the future that the country is wracked with.
They need to look deep into their history for a model of how to lead, back to the Kennedy era. They need to project a sense of confidence, informed patriotism, and socially cohesive inclusion. The Obama coalition was a moment, not the future. It is not holding together in the face of changing realities. The Clinton campaign was breathtakingly tone-deaf in a way that history will find obvious and inexcusable. The embrace of fashionable identity politics has massively compromised the viability of the party as a national political force.
If the democrats don't radically re-think their core identity as a party, they'll hand the future to the Republicans, and increasingly the notable political narrative will be about the disputes between different Republican factions, not the challenge from the Democrats.
The Democrats can start the housecleaning by making clear that the Clintons and everything they represent should be consigned to the dust-heap of history, with all the contempt that they deserve.
This post would be funny if it weren't so pro-condoning white supremacy.
It does nothing for them because in 2016 Dems (including Hillary) often acted like they were talking to a stereotype of a voter and not an actual voter. It did not sound genuine, too much like tone deaf pandering.Does nothing for them. Minority turnout was depressed (black) or stable (latino) at best in 2016.
Get another Obama or (Bill) Clinton and there will be no issue with civil rights. Like almost everything in US politics it isn't necessarily what you say but how you say it
VendettaRed07
Member
Does nothing for them. Minority turnout was depressed (black) or stable (latino) at best in 2016.
Maybe Hillary's bad history on both matters regardless of what she said or walked back wasn't enough. While the majority voted for her the dissent is noteworthy.
I can see people not buying into "I will undo my husband's presidency. Promise".
Healthcare is their one killer issue. Democrats should have taken the Sanders line on healthcare long ago. Universal single-payer. Global warming and the environment is another strong issue. The public is not with the current administration on these issues.
Climate change is not that strong of an issue to campaign on. Most people may agree that climate action is important, that climate change is a threat, that Trump and the GOP's climate denialism is wrong, but it's not a voting priority for the left or the right.
Healthcare actually is. But climate change is not #2 on that list.
Well, he did promise free college tuition. Are are you going to argue that didn't happen?
And the point still stands- If you think someone can offer you better, more inclusive healthcare while lowering costs, you're a fucking idiot. So I have no idea what your main argument is other than to differentiate 'free' and 'lower cost'... Both of which any rational human being should be skeptical of right off the bat.
Bernie Sanders did not win the presidency or the primary, so clearly promising free college is not a winning platform.
And yes, American voters are not rational human beings! No shit! They respond to emotion appeals and gut instincts, and the natural gut instinct response to "I promise you free [blank]" is "That's bullshit, he's a liar." Yes it's stupid to believe that someone can deliver you better healthcare for lower costs, but it's a more believable message than healthcare for no costs. I can't explain why that is, I didn't program these people!
timetokill
Banned
The Republican platform is basically about judgment and people getting "what they deserve," good or bad. "Hardworking folks like you should get everything, lazy *dog whistle* welfare queens are living it up on your hard work and taxes!" So every Democratic proposal comes off as "oh, another service for people who don't deserve it!" So this has captured the people who view themselves as "working class" (which is way more people than are actually "working class").
What Democrats need to do is turn it that around and go hard on "corrupt bosses" who are making money hand over fist and spending time on the golf course while you work extra hours. Bosses that are cutting jobs, cutting hours, cutting benefits. They need to reframe the issue as Democrats fighting for what you deserve as a hard worker. The Republicans have already successfully blamed the poor for their ills, the Democrats need to go in hard from the other direction.
In the end, what Democrats need is a compelling STORY of why people's lives suck. This is what Republicans do so well -- create a compelling story by creating a compelling villain and hammering that villain home over and over and over.
What Democrats need is their own villain, and to start hammering them in the same way, over and over and over. Ad nauseum. Everyone likes to root for the underdog because everyone feels like the underdog. Be the party of the underdog.
What Democrats need to do is turn it that around and go hard on "corrupt bosses" who are making money hand over fist and spending time on the golf course while you work extra hours. Bosses that are cutting jobs, cutting hours, cutting benefits. They need to reframe the issue as Democrats fighting for what you deserve as a hard worker. The Republicans have already successfully blamed the poor for their ills, the Democrats need to go in hard from the other direction.
In the end, what Democrats need is a compelling STORY of why people's lives suck. This is what Republicans do so well -- create a compelling story by creating a compelling villain and hammering that villain home over and over and over.
What Democrats need is their own villain, and to start hammering them in the same way, over and over and over. Ad nauseum. Everyone likes to root for the underdog because everyone feels like the underdog. Be the party of the underdog.
Matrix XII
Member
Still boggles my mind that the lady who won doesn't agree with a livable wage and still gets voted in. I mean, that is really scary. Low times for the Democrats. They have to find a way to win. I don't think America or the world can handle 4-8 years of Trump.
Carpe Libertatem
Member
Because unless you ever want to be competitive in red or pink districts, it matters?
And this is ready?? What has she done? Besides refusing to work with Republicans (which is all a minority leader can hope to do), she talks a lot at town halls. And looks completely disconnected to the movements of her own party.
And by the way, even the rank and file are beginning to question her fitness for the role:
http://www.politico.com/story/2017/06/21/nancy-pelosi-fallout-georgia-special-election-239804
People have forgotten about the mid 2000s I guess???
Or that Pelosi pushed through a public option in the House when the Senate couldn't??
I H8 Memes
Member
You guys are going to have to drop support for gun control and abortion if you want to win the house.
Autodidact
Banned
You don't have to tone down social issues you just need to offer other stuff too
Rural voters won't vote for the "other stuff" if they think that black people will get it, too.
Plinko
Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
Every powerful Dem is hated by the right. Who the fuck cares what the right wants. The claim was that there is no way someone could be hated so quickly. Hillary had great approvals into 2015. Despite the smear campaigns over the years.
Those were blown up overnight.
Again, this is revisionist history.
NoFaceNico
Member
A lot of people are not showing up to vote at all or voting for the lesser of two evils. It would be a great time for a political third party to gain some ground. I would hear them out. But it would take time to wean voters off the two party system.
The left at least needs a radical offshoot to give the party as a whole some courage to be more ambitious. Kinda like what the Tea Party did for the right, but not moronic.
Also we need more black candidates. I'm sorry to put it so bluntly but the numbers show that the black vote stays home if they're not represented.
The left at least needs a radical offshoot to give the party as a whole some courage to be more ambitious. Kinda like what the Tea Party did for the right, but not moronic.
Also we need more black candidates. I'm sorry to put it so bluntly but the numbers show that the black vote stays home if they're not represented.
BrutishMrFish
Member
Hell, I'm quite sure some of them even prefer Trump to Bernie because that way they won't have to make some tough decision, you know, like abandoning their corporate sponsors.
Russ Feingold campaigned on that, and he did even worse in Wisconsin than someone who didn't campaign there at all. You want to hobble the party over something that doesn't get votes?
Oh there's definitely blame to be tossed around.
Hilary had bad optics, and some of them were definitely self inflicted.
Here's my issue with my home state democrats. NJ is a blue state that Chris Christie won because our last two democratic governors were corrupt. The second one being a former Goldman Sachs Ceo. We all know how bad the reputation of Wall Street is right now, specifically with Goldman Sachs and former members in Trump's cabinet.
Of course now that Christe is on his way out, who happens to win the NJ Democratic primary? Another former Goldman Sachs executive.
There is political fatigue there and it is entirely self inflicted.
The more money that's required to win elections in the U.S., the more we will see this happen.
You guys are going to have to drop support for gun control and abortion if you want to win the house.
LOL, tossing women to the wolves, that is a winning strategy
teruterubozu
Member
Hot take: Democrats won the popular vote, are making huge gains in special elections in deeply red districts, and have way more popular policies. They are doing everything right and should keep it up.
Awesome. No need to worry then. It'll all come together naturally.
Evening Musuko
Black Korea
Accusing democrats of spending too much time talking about social issues and civil rights is wild.
As a minority in the south this is just mind blowing.
I'll give you one guess what they often mean by "Democrats".Accusing democrats of spending too much time talking about social issues and civil rights is wild.
Insane, slanderous response. Come on.This post would be funny if it weren't so pro-condoning white supremacy.
People have forgotten about the mid 2000s I guess???
Or that Pelosi pushed through a public option in the House when the Senate couldn't??
It's easy to make the argument at this point that Pelosi hurts the party more than helps it. It's not just random people on forums discussing this, it's people on Capital Hill. That was a decade ago, this is now. Politicians have a shelf life, unless you're someone very special.
Hot take: Democrats won the popular vote, are making huge gains in special elections in deeply red districts, and have way more popular policies. They are doing everything right and should keep it up.
lol you lost to Donald fucking Trump.
Autodidact
Banned
Hot take: Democrats won the popular vote, are making huge gains in special elections in deeply red districts, and have way more popular policies. They are doing everything right and should keep it up.
Agreed.
My hot take: last year, starting with Bernie, a group of young white heterosexual malcontents decided that a party focused on women and minorities should change itself to accommodate them. (Whom do you think "economic issues" benefit most?) They've been taught from birth that they should control everything and everything should be about them, so why not the Democratic Party?
GoldenEye 007
Member
I do think climate change hasn't been messaged correctly. Nobody ties it to national defense or job creation. People say go green, lower temps/co2! But they don't go further and talk about a new economy with it or being able to abandon dependence on foreign sources. That stuff could get more people excited I think.Climate change is not that strong of an issue to campaign on. Most people may agree that climate action is important, that climate change is a threat, that Trump and the GOP's climate denialism is wrong, but it's not a voting priority for the left or the right.
Healthcare actually is. But climate change is not #2 on that list.
But I'm not an expert.
Carpe Libertatem
Member
The more money that's required to win elections in the U.S., the more we will see this happen.
The Democratic candidate running in SC-05 was also a former Goldman Sachs executive, but people still complained that the party didn't give him money :lol
John Rabbit
Banned
Deep Red district full of affluent whites isn't a place where "livable wage" is going to get a lot of traction. Minimum wage isn't meant to be "livable". It's what you earn while you attend a 4-year college that your parents are paying for so you can blow your $6/hr on iPhone apps and fast food. If you're black you're just not trying hard enough.Still boggles my mind that the lady who won doesn't agree with a livable wage and still gets voted in. I mean, that is really scary. Low times for the Democrats. They have to find a way to win. I don't think America or the world can handle 4-8 years of Trump.
excelsiorlef
Member
You guys are going to have to drop support for gun control and abortion if you want to win the house.
Lol yes. Let's just tell women sucks to be you if you get pregnant
teruterubozu
Member
It's easy to make the argument at this point that Pelosi hurts the party more than helps it. It's not just random people on forums discussing this, it's people on Capital Hill. That was a decade ago, this is now. Politicians have a shelf life, unless you're someone very special.
Special like John McCain?
I H8 Memes
Member
LOL, tossing women to the wolves, that is a winning strategy
I forgot that being pro abortion was a winning strategy for Democrats.
The post you're replying to reveals a problem: A lot of liberals think the issues that matter the most to them are the ones that matter the most to the general public.Climate change is not that strong of an issue to campaign on. Most people may agree that climate action is important, that climate change is a threat, that Trump and the GOP's climate denialism is wrong, but it's not a voting priority for the left or the right.
Healthcare actually is. But climate change is not #2 on that list.
People really don't give a shit about climate change.
It really is the ultimate sobering reminder that despite ALL of their flaws (and, yes, Dems have flaws) and missteps (they made plenty of those), they still won the popular vote and it wasn't enough because the electoral college has no place in this century and no one ever had the will to get rid of it. I was indifferent about it this time last year, but it has failed us the second time since 2000 (2016 being even more ridiculous because in 2000 we were only talking about 500k votes). It could happen again someday. Such a stupid system.Hot take: Democrats won the popular vote, are making huge gains in special elections in deeply red districts, and have way more popular policies. They are doing everything right and should keep it up.
If Dems ever get to pass amendments (wet dream I know), their first order of business -- before universal healthcare, before tight regulations on the financial sector, before anything -- should be an amendment abolishing the electoral college and replacing it with a national popular vote tally, period. Frankly, we wouldn't have such a sense of urgency on everything else if votes mattered more nationally and not just in competitive states because their EVs play into the math needed for a party to win. I mean we would have won in 2000 and 2016 for example. Or in years like 2004 Dems could have focused hard on blocs of voters nationally and not just in swing states. It changes the dynamic completely and in a way that represents the actual mood of the country and not what some idiots in the rust belt or the panhandle of FL happen to think (and don't even represent the winning side of the popular vote)...
timetokill
Banned
Deep Red district full of affluent whites isn't a place where "livable wage" is going to get a lot of traction. Minimum wage isn't meant to be "livable". It's what you earn while you attend a 4-year college that your parents are paying for so you can blow your $6/hr on iPhone apps and fast food. If you're black you're just not trying hard enough.
Yep, you're dealing with a lot of older people who believe "working at McDonald's isn't a career."
Awesome. No need to worry then. It'll all come together naturally.
Well there's some strategic stuff to work on like not investing all your money and your hopes and dreams into one special election in a Republican district. But otherwise yeah.
Frozenprince
Banned
Show of hands, who's surprised the Dems answer is "alright well we'll just huck women and brown people to the side again and deal with their shit when we deal with it"?
Cause I sure ain't.
Cause I sure ain't.
You guys are going to have to drop support for gun control and abortion if you want to win the house.
Wow, you're pulling this outta your ass. Gun control and pro-abortion have deep rooted support with the majority of Americans.
Edit:
http://www.gallup.com/poll/1645/guns.aspx
http://www.gallup.com/poll/1576/abortion.aspx
In a lot of the anti-Ossoff attack ads I saw, the two people they were trying to link him to were Pelosi and Sanders, they'll pick any prominent Democrat (for their purposes Bernie counts) on a national level to attack. I wouldn't underestimate how quickly the right can whip up some hate for someone.
I might be naive, but the first thing the left and liberals should to do is swallow their pride. Ultimately, we had our time to see which side was right and in the end we were both wrong so maybe its time to fully work together? And not just "get behind this person or else", but actually find people most of us can get behind and excited about, or at least understand when those people might not be available for every race? Now that I wrote this all out it sounds kinda dumb, "Just find someone everyone kinda likes and we'll win! Easy!". But its all I got.
I might be naive, but the first thing the left and liberals should to do is swallow their pride. Ultimately, we had our time to see which side was right and in the end we were both wrong so maybe its time to fully work together? And not just "get behind this person or else", but actually find people most of us can get behind and excited about, or at least understand when those people might not be available for every race? Now that I wrote this all out it sounds kinda dumb, "Just find someone everyone kinda likes and we'll win! Easy!". But its all I got.