NYT: Democrats: ‘Our Brand Is Worse Than Trump’

I H8 Memes said:
Well I wish you guys luck. I'm still waiting for those "shifting demographics" to kick in. Supposedly that's the Democrats strength yet they have less federal control now then in any other time in my entire 43 years.

I will be happy to vote again when the left has control of the supreme court. You guys just do that and I will be right out there again voting with you!
Click to expand...
You can't sit out future elections thinking that is going to help the SCOTUS lean left again.
 
Maxim726X said:
We do realize it. We also realize that it's more effective when they've been pounding the candidate for decades.

Do you?
Click to expand...

In the age of the internet and 24 hour news cycle I find this doesn't hold true. It doesn't take long at all for the normal sources to whip up a feeding frenzy especially for anything related to the left.
 
I H8 Memes said:
Well I wish you guys luck. I'm still waiting for those "shifting demographics" to kick in. Supposedly that's the Democrats strength yet they have less federal control now then in any other time in my entire 43 years.

I will be happy to vote again when the left has control of the supreme court. You guys just do that and I will be right out there again voting with you!
Click to expand...

Or how about you vote with every goddamn opportunity you have.
 
I H8 Memes said:
Well I wish you guys luck. I'm still waiting for those "shifting demographics" to kick in. Supposedly that's the Democrats strength yet they have less federal control now then in any other time in my entire 43 years.

I will be happy to vote again when the left has control of the supreme court. You guys just do that and I will be right out there again voting with you!
Click to expand...

Great. Nice to see we have such wonderful support when the country is tumbling and our rights and protections are in danger of being eroded.

Our allies everybody.
 
Crab said:
There's an awful strawman in this thread where changing your messaging has turned into changing your governing when the two are only very loosely related. When people are suggesting a reduction on focusing on certain civil issues, they're not saying don't implement those issues in office, they're saying that marginal vote doesn't care about those issues and you need to talk to that marginal vote about something else. The Democrats should absolutely continue to offer every manner of support to black Americans, women, the LGBT community, and so on. But you need to understand that this means very little to a white guy in Pennsylvania who lost his job because rural industry is dead. You need to have a message for him; he is your marginal vote.
Click to expand...

No disrespect, but you again ignore the specific political and societal context that defines American politics.

Democrats have been demonized as the party of "the other" - of gays, of blacks, of immigrants, of Muslims, of women who get abortions on their way to the club. Fox News et al. have convinced rural Pennsylvania voters that Democrats will steal their hard-earned money and give it to those people. Democrats could utter nary a peep about civil rights during an election, and right-wing media would still peddle those lies to credulous rural white people. Your hypothetical voter (poor white man victimized by circumstance... except all those times he voted against his own interests) will never support Democrats. In his mind Republican = "stand up for the WHITE MAN."
 
Maxim726X said:
She is one of the faces of the Democratic party. Republicans just spent millions of dollars trying her to Ossoff, and it appears to have worked, at least in part. The party needs a refresh and she is not a part of the solution.

It's not about her, politically, it's about her image and what she represents- The old guard. Optics do matter and hers suck right now. All she's provided in the way of messaging is 'Trump is the worst, right guys??' which clearly isn't a winning strategy.
Click to expand...

Again it has nothing to do Republican actions. Republicans will shit on anyone for any little thing. The American people have so little faith in one branch of government and that has to change. It plays directly into republican talking points that government is dysfunctional. Democratic Congressional leadership should put out an agenda and fight hard for it with the right message. They can't keep doing what they're doing and only reacting while waiting to pitch up the sails when the winds are favorable. I'd rather not go through another Iraq War and economic disaster for the House and Senate to flip. There should be plenty work with what we have.

I don't hate Pelosi and what she did for ACA should be acknowledged, but democrats need a new public face.
 
HStallion said:
In the age of the internet and 24 hour news cycle I find this doesn't hold true. It doesn't take long at all for the normal sources to whip up a feeding frenzy.
Click to expand...

Did Obama not win two elections in the age of the internet and the 24 hour news cycle?

He was fresh, charismatic, and didn't have decades of hit pieces by the Republican party. Meanwhile, Clinton had to deal with the bullshit that was Benghazi for years and people are still talking about it.
 
Gutek said:
Majority of Americans are pro stricter gun laws/background checks.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I think gun control is one issue that's actually on our side--it's the obfuscation of the issue by the right that creates concern for voters (i.e. "they want to take away our guns!")... but I suppose that explains the crux of the problem for many Democrats (e.g. taxes).
 
Autodidact said:
I bet this forum's ideal Democratic leader will be someone white. And relatively young. And "cool" and able to relate to people.

Some of us in this thread are black. Some of us are gay (hi!). A few of us might be women.
But this forum largely skews young, white, male, and heterosexual. Surprise that this demographic, many of whom haven't acknowledged their subliminal biases, would want someone to whom they can easily relate. But people in general struggle to recognize their biases and flaws, so this discussion will likely go nowhere productive.
Click to expand...

I mean, isn't the topic of conversation getting rid of an older white woman? If she was male and in the same position I think she'd be getting criticized just as badly.
 
Erevador said:
People need to understand that identity politics and civil rights are NOT the same thing.

The Democrats must protect the civil rights of all citizens. Unequivocally.

What they shouldn't do is take the losing side in the waging of an unnecessary and divisive culture war. They cannot allow the hardline radical social activists to stage a hostile takeover of the national party.

This is not entirely about policy. It is about language. It is about America's relationship with its history, its relationship with its iconography, and its sense of confidence and cohesion in its own identity. Throughout the western world the left-wing elite are getting these things very badly wrong. There are many areas where the public agrees with left-wing stances, but can't swallow the attitude and rhetoric of the parties that are advancing those stances.

Democrats must embrace ONE universal message, rather than trying to pander separately to every interest group. They have to be a big-tent party that speaks to the dignity and dreams of every American, without sowing the seeds of division and separatism. All the double-speak does is make every faction feel suspicious and betrayed, leading to constant internal self-cannibalization. This happened under the surface in 2016, and the populist/union element of the party quietly defected to Trump. Meanwhile the party continues to devour itself in infighting and paralysis while Republicans continue to win.

Remember, Hillary actually thought it was a good idea to tie her image to that of Lena Dunham and the stars of Broad City. Is she insane, or just hopelessly out of touch? All of this while failing to show up in Wisconsin and Michigan.

Breathtaking cluelessness.
Click to expand...

"Fuck your protection laws and need for cohesive justice and social reform, we won't win unless you agree to have your issues be distilled down into nothing".
 
Autodidact said:
I bet this forum's ideal Democratic leader will be someone white. And relatively young. And "cool" and able to relate to people.

Some of us in this thread are black. Some of us are gay (hi!). A few of us might be women.
But this forum largely skews young, white, male, and heterosexual. Surprise that this demographic, many of whom haven't acknowledged their subliminal biases, would want someone to whom they can easily relate. But people in general struggle to recognize their biases and flaws, so this discussion will likely go nowhere productive.
Click to expand...

At this point most Dems or anyone against Trump would take anyone, no matter their skin colour or age, so I disagree.

I really don't understand this sudden hatred against Democrats as if they are suddenly the same as Republicans when it comes to race and social rights, it's baffling.
 
There are millions upon millions of single issue voters who solely vote for the 2nd. If the left became "gun pro" that would be a wrap imo. It's sad to say, but there are a lot of people who are with the left on social issues, but if you mention one thing that could muddy their personal passion, they'll go the other way. At one point in time the left was pro gun and the right was more stern on the issue. That was because of the black panther party presence and open carry back in the day.

Take it back.
 
Erevador said:
People need to understand that identity politics and civil rights are NOT the same thing.

The Democrats must protect the civil rights of all citizens. Unequivocally.

What they shouldn't do is take the losing side in the waging of an unnecessary and divisive culture war. They cannot allow the hardline radical social activists to stage a hostile takeover of the national party.

This is not entirely about policy. It is about language. It is about America's relationship with its history, its relationship with its iconography, and its sense of confidence and cohesion in its own identity. Throughout the western world the left-wing elite are getting these things very badly wrong. There are many areas where the public agrees with left-wing stances, but can't swallow the attitude and rhetoric of the parties that are advancing those stances.

Democrats must embrace ONE universal message, rather than trying to pander separately to every interest group. They have to be a big-tent party that speaks to the dignity and dreams of every American, without sowing the seeds of division and separatism. All the double-speak does is make every faction feel suspicious and betrayed, leading to constant internal self-cannibalization. This happened under the surface in 2016, and the populist/union element of the party quietly defected to Trump. Meanwhile the party continues to devour itself in infighting and paralysis while Republicans continue to win.

Remember, Hillary actually thought it was a good idea to tie her image to that of Lena Dunham and the stars of Broad City. Is she insane, or just hopelessly out of touch? All of this while failing to show up in Wisconsin and Michigan.

Breathtaking cluelessness.
Click to expand...

Black people getting shot in the streets and LGBTQ rights are a culture war people...

Allies....man who needs the GOP
 
Dr. Benton Quest said:
Some of you are acting like you've never seen Pelosi speak publicly. She's terrible. Carries no enthusiasm, seems confused, and is a lighting rod to get the right out to the polls. Couple that with being a gaffe machine and I see no reason to keep her out front. Let her use her influence behind the scenes.

The right's propaganda machine was barley able to stop a wet towel from becoming president after a decades long smear campaign. Other party leaders face nowhere near the targeted attacks she does and that's because she feeds them the ammo they need.
Click to expand...

She's excellent in the leadership role, and anyone placed in it will be put through the propaganda ringer and gradually discredited over time purely via attrition. It's inevitable.

Dr. Benton Quest said:
"We have to pass it for you to find out what's in it."

Jesus fucking Christ they still beat this drum to get their side to vote. Everyone here knows what she meant but most voters don't.

She has to take a less public role.
Click to expand...

I mean, that quote may as well be the best example that substance is totally irrelevant where propaganda is concerned. She never actually said that.
 
Autodidact said:
I bet this forum's ideal Democratic leader will be someone white. And relatively young. And "cool" and able to relate to people.

Some of us in this thread are black. Some of us are gay (hi!). A few of us might be women.
But this forum largely skews young, white, male, and heterosexual. Surprise that this demographic, many of whom haven't acknowledged their subliminal biases, would want someone to whom they can easily relate. But people in general struggle to recognize their biases and flaws, so this discussion will likely go nowhere productive.
Click to expand...


Or, you know, many of us aren't obsessed with the race or gender of candidates and only give a fuck about their actual policies. Shocking I know, but some people care about what politicians represent not how they look like or what they do in their private lives.
 
Frozenprince said:
"Fuck your protection laws and need for cohesive justice and social reform, we won't win unless you agree to have your issues be distilled down into nothing".
Click to expand...

"We need to remain the big tent party - but please everyone in the tent that isn't with the largest group can you please stop trying to have a voice?"
 
Maxim726X said:
Did Obama not win two elections in the age of the internet and the 24 hour news cycle?

He was fresh, charismatic, and didn't have decades of hit pieces by the Republican party. Meanwhile, Clinton had to deal with the bullshit that was Benghazi for years and people are still talking about it.
Click to expand...

Yeah Obama won just like the rest of the Democratic party off of two teams of George Bush fucking up. He still got a metric shit ton tossed in his direction and much of that latent hate for Obama led to where we are now.

The GOP having been priming their base with this mentality for decades. They don't need years and years to turn their demographics on the Left. It's automatic now.
 
Mahadev said:
Or, you know, many of us aren't obsessed with the race or gender of candidates and only give a fuck about their actual policies. Shocking I know, but some people care about what politicians represent not how they look like or what they do in their private lives.
Click to expand...

Nancy Pelosi has been one of the most progressive members of Congress for thirty years.

What does she not represent that you think another leader could?

And for your information, Republicans seem to care a lot about what women and gays do in their private lives. How dare we want someone who explicitly and vociferously fights for us. We are such entitled little snowflakes.
 
Why are you guys making a big deal about it? I mean I havent looked into it or anything, but I'm sure Democrats getting control of the Supreme Court would be super easy.
 
If nobody will discuss my issues because they aren't important to winning then how can I trust that they won't just be pushed to the back of the que? That's the point, you can't assume my vote is for granted just because the other side is repugnant.

There's little difference between being under a repugnant party and under one that just kinda ignores you.

My ability to have a voice is important to me.
 
I H8 Memes said:
Well I wish you guys luck. I'm still waiting for those "shifting demographics" to kick in. Supposedly that's the Democrats strength yet they have less federal control now then in any other time in my entire 43 years.

I will be happy to vote again when the left has control of the supreme court. You guys just do that and I will be right out there again voting with you!
Click to expand...
You do realize that sitting on your ass hoping for things to change is not a very effective strategy, right?

I H8 Memes said:
Why are you guys making a big deal about it? I mean I havent looked into it or anything, but I'm sure Democrats getting control of the Supreme Court would be super easy.
Click to expand...
...
 
Came close in deep red areas

Party immediately assumes a close loss like this means everything is on fire

Seems like a totally legit response and in no way an overreaction







/s obviously
 
Gattsu25 said:
"We need to remain the big tent party - but please everyone in the tent that isn't with the largest group can you please stop trying to have a voice?"
Click to expand...
The Democrat's biggest weakness has always been that while we are technically a majority we are really composed of a number of parties that, while not actively opposed to each other nessecarily, do not share the same priorities. It makes composing a unified message difficult, although healthcare might do it
 
GOP keeps laughing as they close more precincts, cut hours, institute voter ID and other forms of disenfranchisement. Meanwhile Democrats blame people with minimum-wage jobs for not voting as if they have complete freedom and ability to do so.

The very way we conduct elections is intrinsically biased towards the GOP's main demographic group and they keep doubling down on it without any consequences.
 
Brawndo Addict said:
GOP keeps laughing as they close more precincts, cut hours, institute voter ID and other forms of disenfranchisement. Meanwhile Democrats blame people with minimum-wage jobs for not voting as if they have the freedom and ability to do so.

The very way we conduct elections is intrinsically biased towards the GOP's main demographic group.
Click to expand...

Also this. Good lord why isn't every single person left of center shouting about this and little else at this point?
 
Autodidact said:
Nancy Pelosi has been one of the most progressive members of Congress for thirty years.

What does she not represent that you think another leader could?
Click to expand...

Nancy Pelosi is an "elections progressive" like most Democrats, they're progressives as long as they're campaigning and then become typical corporate Democrats and forget about us until the next elections.
 
Chmpocalypse said:
Came close in deep red areas

Party immediately assumes a close loss like this means everything is on fire

Seems like a totally legit response and in no way an overreaction







/s obviously
Click to expand...

The folly of expectations. 7 months ago, this result would have been an unexpected surprise. But hyping it up as some kind of epic waterloo made responsible adults lose their minds at the result.
 
Balphon said:
She's excellent in the leadership role, and anyone placed in it will be put through the propaganda ringer and gradually discredited over time purely via attrition. It's inevitable.



I mean, that quote may as well be the best example that substance is totally irrelevant where propaganda is concerned. She never actually said that.
Click to expand...
She literally said those words. I know that she was talking about the complexity of the bill in relation to the public, but most voters don't. I don't buy that the right can take down anyone. Hell, they couldn't fucking touch Obama and they were basically dedicated to smearing him for years.
 
Mahadev said:
Nancy Pelosi is an elections progressive like most Democrats, they're progressives as long as they're campaigning and then become typical corporate Democrats and forget about us until the next elections.
Click to expand...

Saying stuff like this isn't exactly helping your case, considering it's not true.
 
Crab said:
There's an awful strawman in this thread where changing your messaging has turned into changing your governing when the two are only very loosely related. When people are suggesting a reduction on focusing on certain civil issues, they're not saying don't implement those issues in office, they're saying that marginal vote doesn't care about those issues and you need to talk to that marginal vote about something else. The Democrats should absolutely continue to offer every manner of support to black Americans, women, the LGBT community, and so on. But you need to understand that this means very little to a white guy in Pennsylvania who lost his job because rural industry is dead. You need to have a message for him; he is your marginal vote.
Click to expand...
Here's the thing- the Dems weren't messaging on it! But w/ BLM, Kaepernick, etc. in the news, and so many people's association of "Black" = "Democrat" = "*insert derogatory name here*", it created the impression that we were as a party (via Fox News and Friends) even if it wasn't a major focus of Clinton's campaign!
 
Autodidact said:
Nancy Pelosi has been one of the most progressive members of Congress for thirty years.

What does she not represent that you think another leader could?

And for your information, Republicans seem to care a lot about what women and gays do in their private lives. How dare we want someone who explicitly and vociferously fights for us. We are such entitled little snowflakes.
Click to expand...

30 years as a representative for San Francisco, no less.
 
Mahadev said:
Nancy Pelosi is an elections progressive like most Democrats, they're progressives as long as they're campaigning and then become typical corporate Democrats and forget about us until the next elections.
Click to expand...

You know what, as long as corporate Democrats object to white supremacy, misogynistic abortion laws, LGBT discrimination, and inhumane treatment of immigrants, slap my ass and call me Property of Goldman Sachs.

Pelosi voted against the Defense of Marriage Act and the war in Iraq. Good enough for me.
 
A large chunk of Democratic leaders line of thought these days are just as much "Fuck you, got mine" as a lot of GOP members.

They're apathetic and extremely out of touch with their constituents. They have absolutely no backbone and aren't willing to fight for jack shit.
 
Isaac Otherworld said:
Because Bernie Sanders campaigned so hard on abolishing work place rights for LGBT individuals.
Click to expand...

You realize that they don't have any workplace protections in 17 states, right? And that 8 more states only offer protection for government jobs? So how are they going to benefit from an improving economy if they're discriminated against?
 
I H8 Memes said:
Well I wish you guys luck. I'm still waiting for those "shifting demographics" to kick in. Supposedly that's the Democrats strength yet they have less federal control now then in any other time in my entire 43 years.

I will be happy to vote again when the left has control of the supreme court. You guys just do that and I will be right out there again voting with you!
Click to expand...
Yes it is very tough to overcome a country founded on white supremacy. Still a long ways to go. And there are roadblocks at every direction.

Doesn't help that there are plenty that sit around and protect their privilege and act high and mighty about it to boot.

Anyway, the GOP has become a white supremacist party. It's the logical conclusion to the Southern Strategy. Their base and a good chunk of moderate whites can't be trusted.

So Dems will need to figure out a path that relies less on moderate and extremist whites. Bring em aboard if they're willing and for progress but focus on policies that are uplifting and can benefit all but speaks to the plight of poor and minority voters. Healthcare, education, new economies, criminal justice, etc.

The suppression and enthusiasm gap will have to be overcome and the party will have to act differently.
 
I H8 Memes said:
Well I wish you guys luck. I'm still waiting for those "shifting demographics" to kick in. Supposedly that's the Democrats strength yet they have less federal control now then in any other time in my entire 43 years.

I will be happy to vote again when the left has control of the supreme court. You guys just do that and I will be right out there again voting with you!
Click to expand...
Spoken like someone who's quality of life is not at stake.
 
BrutishMrFish said:
You realize that they don't have any workplace protections in 17 states, right? And that 8 more states only offer protection for government jobs? So how are they going to benefit from an improving economy if they're discriminated against?
Click to expand...

There are people in the US right now that could be evicted because they share their home with someone of the same sex.

Right now.
 
Mahadev said:
Nancy Pelosi is an "elections progressive" like most Democrats, they're progressives as long as they're campaigning and then become typical corporate Democrats and forget about us until the next elections.
Click to expand...
Who is "us"?

You are going to have to deal with the moderates in your party determining how far left legislation goes because they hold the marginal votes! This is true in any legislative body!
 
To be clear, I most certainly don't want Democrats to ignore social issues, as it's my number one concern personally. I just think that they need to do more to entice a wider array of voters. That's easier said than done of course, but we have to realize that people are for the most part inherently selfish and won't care as much when they don't see the issues around them. Democrats need to do a better job at explaining why they will better protect American lives while emphasizing civil liberties and overall quality of life.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Grok is so much better than ChatGPT now
45
441
sono replied
Is Dave Chappelle the greatest 'stand-up' comedian of our time?
2
70
639
INC replied
Section 31 Rottenwatch: Kurtzman makes a worse Star Trek movie than Into Darkness, Nemesis, and Final Frontier combined
2
93
5K
Fluffytheterrible replied
There is no greater pain than acute illness
NSFW 
38
2K
Mistake replied
  • Poll
Which is worse: Food or Drug Addiction?
2
74
4K
NuncaBob replied
Top Bottom