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[Slater]

Why?

The travel time from where Tyrion was at wall going to that inn and where Cat was don't match up.

At all.

Actually the first 3 books had a lot of stuff like that, but it didn't really matter because everything was tight.

Then Martin decided to ignore his editors and we got garbage like Brienne wasting a full book fucking around looking in a place every reader knew was wrong

 

[Psychoward]

For the first time, I feel like the shows pacing is really bad this season. So many moments this episode really deserved more than the five minutes everything got outside of Olena's death. You had two of the greatest castles int he 7 Kingdom's fall, Bran returning to Winterfell, Jon and Dany meeting and it all felt so mundane.

Welp, at least Winds of winter will be out at some point.

yep, they're going by way too fast

remember when season 3 had like 7 scenes about theon's torture :/

glad they wasted time on that and now we're stuck racing through the climax without proper gravitas or enjoyable filler/banter

 

[Herr Schwarz]

The unsullied become sieged by eurons forces. Slowly starving etc. Eurons forces charge the weakened unsullied, mortally wounding Greyworm.

Then Danerys flys in torching the fleet and burning Eurons land forces with her dragons and dothraki horde in tow.

Jaimes army abandons euron, as he doesn't want him fingering cerseis bum.

Closes with whatever that hand maiden to Danerys is called crying over Greyworms dying body.


"Goodbye missendei"

 

[Slater]

For the first time, I feel like the shows pacing is really bad this season. So many moments this episode really deserved more than the five minutes everything got outside of Olena's death. You had two of the greatest castles int he 7 Kingdom's fall, Bran returning to Winterfell, Jon and Dany meeting and it all felt so mundane.

Welp, at least Winds of winter will be out at some point.

Haha if you mean 30 blog posts about fucking wild cards then yeah, will get WoW at some point

 

[finowns]

The travel time from where Tyrion was at wall going to that inn and where Cat was don't match up.

At all.

Actually the first 3 books had a lot of stuff like that, but it didn't really matter because everything was tight.

Then Martin decided to ignore his editors and we got garbage like Brienne wasting a full book fucking around looking in a place every reader knew was wrong

You never really get a sense of specific time scale in books. You don't get a feeling of shenanigans at all reading the book, mostly.

 

[Rentahamster]

.

What else can they do specifically with one rider? Get the dragons who explicitly can't be tamed to fly out by themselves when all they wanna do is hang around there mom? How do they scout shit without a human to relay anything they see?

Time for Tyrion and Jon to pilot the other dragons xD

 

[Psychoward]

also what the hell was up with bran this episode

I get that he's changed and all but he didn't explain that there was a person before him who taught him warging? that was too complicated? why was he a dick to his sister for no reason

so many questions, so little time to show them

 

[KahooTs]

The travel time from where Tyrion was at wall going to that inn and where Cat was don't match up.

So how exactly are you tracking the timing of Tyrion's chapters against Catelyn's timing?

 

[Slater]

You never really get a sense of specific time scale in books. You don't get a feeling of shenanigans at all reading the book, mostly.

Well if you mean in the GOOD books you don't then sure. But boy fucking howdy you get a sense of how fucking slow time is moving in the last 2 books.

 

[Chumley]

They did a pretty good job with Lena Headey's body double. The way they framed that shot it actually seemed for a second like it was her.

 

[Neece]

Yea no big deal. Just write it all away in brain dead simple scenes. No need to have standards or at least pretend to care.

Next episode Bran kills the white walkers with mind bullets because it's simpler that way, and really, who cares how simply they wrap this up? It works doesn't it?

Lets not turn this into the worthless contribution to...well, anything, that is that other thread.

You did not address my point.

King's Landing nearly fell in one night. We know strongholds can fall in a single day given the right circumstances - and this was the right circumstance given what has been presented in the show. The Tyrells lost the most powerful part of their army, and their stronghold fell. If this would have occurred entirely off-screen, and was mentioned in a speech, would that have been better storytelling?

 

[Cvie]

You did not address my point.

King's Landing nearly fell in one night. We know strongholds can fall in a single day given the right circumstances - and this was the right circumstance given what has been presented in the show. The Tyrells lost the most powerful part of their army, and their stronghold fell. If this would have occurred entirely off-screen, and was mentioned in a speech, would that have been better?

are the Tarly's more powerfull than Hightower? not to mention all the other dozens of bannermen and the Tyrels own forces. In the books I would say absolutely not but in the show who knows

 

[Apt101]

You did not address my point.

King's Landing nearly fell in one night. We know strongholds can fall in a single day given the right circumstances - and this was the right circumstance given what has been presented in the show. The Tyrells lost the most powerful part of their army, and their stronghold fell. If this would have occurred entirely off-screen, and was mentioned in a speech, would that have been better storytelling?

Yea a huge army just vanished and died like nothing. An army marched through the most provisioned territory like it was nothing. This is a dumb conversation. I feel like I am trying to explain why water is wet.

 

[Chumley]

You did not address my point.

King's Landing nearly fell in one night. We know strongholds can fall in a single day given the right circumstances - and this was the right circumstance given what has been presented in the show. The Tyrells lost the most powerful part of their army, and their stronghold fell. If this would have occurred entirely off-screen, and was mentioned in a speech, would that have been better storytelling?

No. That would have been even worse. D&D aren't entirely to blame, but being in the position they're in where they have to wrap up everything in two shortened seasons is clearly causing huge pacing issues even beyond what we saw in S5 and S6.

The Tyrell's falling like that is a huge moment that needed way more time and money. They had an unlimited budget for this final stretch IIRC so I don't really understand why they're making these kinds of sacrifices. I get that CGI and post-production work takes resources, but they have the money to hire as many people as they need to get this shit done.

 

[finowns]

You did not address my point.

King's Landing nearly fell in one night. We know strongholds can fall in a single day given the right circumstances - and this was the right circumstance given what has been presented in the show. The Tyrells lost the most powerful part of their army, and their stronghold fell. If this would have occurred entirely off-screen, and was mentioned in a speech, would that have been better storytelling?

What do you mean strongholds can fall in a single day? What specifically are you talking about? Generally stronghold don't fall easily, right?

 

[Slater]

What do you mean strongholds can fall in a single day? What specifically are you talking about? Generally stronghold don't fall easily, right?

KL. Capital of the 7 kingdoms. Stanis almost took it in one night. Was a pretty big deal at the time

 

[KahooTs]

A point was made of KL being undefended, as Tywin had the Lannister forces out in the field. Considering they were supposed to march on KL you'd have to think the Tyrell host was both mobilised and in Highgarden as no-one has mentioned their whereabouts otherwise.

It's just easier for them to have what they want to happen happen, free of any logic and information. We show we care more than they do by discussing it.

 

[Lord of Castamere]

Oh please. Tyrion and Cat being at the same inn in the books made fuck all sense even at the time, the internal logic of travel distance got fucked right at the start.

Yeah, that instance never really made sense, but I don't think that was a common thing. I agree that I'e always had issues with the plot convenience of that. Tyrion getting captured and Tywin mobilizing so quickly are glaring spots in the first book, but that was mostly it from I can remember from my last read.

 

[Neece]

1. Yea a huge army just vanished and died like nothing. An army marched 2. through the most provisioned territory like it was nothing. This is a dumb conversation. I feel like I am trying to explain why water is wet.

I'll try one more time.

1. Robb Stark lost half of his forces when one house abandoned him. Why is it bad storytelling if something similar happens in a different region?

2. The "most provisioned territory" says nothing about how strong their stronghold is, so it's irrelevant. Riverrun withheld a siege because it's a hard castle to take because of their rivers, AND they had an incompetent bunch of Freys trying to siege when they knew nothing about sieges. Those facts don't exist for a Lannister army recently joined with the Reach's best military commander and the Tyrells most powerful bannerman (in the show) while trying to take a castle not known for being difficult to take.

 

[finowns]

KL. Capital of the 7 kingdoms. Stanis almost took it in one night. Was a pretty big deal at the time

Are you comparing Kings Landing, a massive city, to Highgarden, a massive castle?

 

[KahooTs]

I'll try one more time.

1. Robb Stark lost half of his forces when one house abandoned him. Why is it bad storytelling if something similar happens in a different region?

It wasn't bad story telling because it was actually told.

 

[Ramirez]

No. That would have been even worse. D&D aren't entirely to blame, but being in the position they're in where they have to wrap up everything in two shortened seasons is clearly causing huge pacing issues even beyond what we saw in S5 and S6.

The Tyrell's falling like that is a huge moment that needed way more time and money. They had an unlimited budget for this final stretch IIRC so I don't really understand why they're making these kinds of sacrifices. I get that CGI and post-production work takes resources, but they have the money to hire as many people as they need to get this shit done.

lol, I highly doubt this.

 

[Slater]

Yeah, that instance never really made sense, but I don't think that was a common thing. I agree that I'e always had issues with the plot convenience of that. Tyrion getting captured and Tywin mobilizing so quickly are glaring spots in the first book, but that was mostly it from I can remember from my last read.

Oh I'm fine with it to, like I said the first 3 books are nice and tight, so it's worth it. But anyone pretending the books internal travel logic was ever deep in comparison to the show has blinders on big time.

 

[Apt101]

I'll try one more time.

1. Robb Stark lost half of his forces when one house abandoned him. Why is it bad storytelling if something similar happens in a different region?

2. The "most provisioned territory" says nothing about how strong their stronghold is, so it's irrelevant. Riverrun withheld a siege because it's a hard castle to take because of their three rivers/moats, AND they had an incompetent bunch of Freys trying to siege when they knew nothing about sieges. Those facts don't exist for a Lannister army recently joined with the Reach's best military commander and the Tyrells most powerful bannerman (in the show) while trying to take a castle not known for being difficult to take.

Robb Stark was slaughtered in an ambush. A shitload of soldiers surprised them while others moved in. These two instances aren't even barely comparable.

I guess one can hand wave away why an army was able to march through the Reach uncontested and then take a stronghold guarded my a huge army in a nothing of a battle but then we find ourselves back at my original point. That is fucking insane and dumb, by any reckoning. You say it's pointless. But it's anything but. They had provisions and men. Duh. You're summoning fancy from thin air. Much like the writers were.

 

[Chumley]

lol, I highly doubt this.

Well, not unlimited, but probably substantial.

 

[Neece]

It wasn't bad story telling because it was actually told.

The story of the Tarly's switching sides was told, too.

 

[Matt]

I'll try one more time.

1. Robb Stark lost half of his forces when one house abandoned him. Why is it bad storytelling if something similar happens in a different region?

2. The "most provisioned territory" says nothing about how strong their stronghold is, so it's irrelevant. Riverrun withheld a siege because it's a hard castle to take because of their three rivers/moats, AND they had an incompetent bunch of Freys trying to siege when they knew nothing about sieges. Those facts don't exist for a Lannister army recently joined with the Reach's best military commander and the Tyrells most powerful bannerman (in the show) while trying to take a castle not known for being difficult to take.

Several houses abandoned the Starks, and they were houses that had purposefully avoided battle so that they would remain at strength while the rest of the army was weakened.

Highgarden has pretty much avoided almost all the fights everyone else has engaged in, and they were always the largest. The Lanisters should be nothing compared to them.

 

[Neece]

Robb Stark was slaughtered in an ambush.

I was talking about when the Karstarks went home.

 

[Lord of Castamere]

Btw isn't Dragonsreach supposed to have a town, and port? I thought Davos went to an inn at one point either when he returned from Kings Landing, or when he was plotting to free Stannis from Mel.

 

[Chumley]

I was talking about when the Karstarks went home.

The show covered that pretty well, it basically followed the books and showed why they bailed on Robb.

They showed why Tarly switched sides but that's about it as far as making sense of what went down at Highgarden. They explained absolutely fuck all as to why they fell so easily and had nobody scouting or defending. It just happened. Tarly being the largest house serving them isn't even close to enough of a justification.

Oh I'm fine with it to, like I said the first 3 books are nice and tight, so it's worth it. But anyone pretending the books internal travel logic was ever deep in comparison to the show has blinders on big time.

That's just not true. Off the top of my head I can point to Brienne's chapters and Ghost in Winterfell at being a masterclass in building atmosphere through a clear communication of time and distance traveled. Brienne was basically a road trip story but at no point did it ever feel like she was covering too much ground too quickly, it all felt grounded.

 

[finowns]

Oh I'm fine with it to, like I said the first 3 books are nice and tight, so it's worth it. But anyone pretending the books internal travel logic was ever deep in comparison to the show has blinders on big time.

You're just wrong, there was never anything in the books as blatant as some of stuff in the show, not that I particularly care about Varys teleporting around.

 

[Vice]

Haha if you mean 30 blog posts about fucking wild cards then yeah, will get WoW at some point

I can only pray for an NFL strike at this point.

yep, they're going by way too fast

remember when season 3 had like 7 scenes about theon's torture :/

glad they wasted time on that and now we're stuck racing through the climax without proper gravitas or enjoyable filler/banter

I'm looking forward to Clegane Bowl, Dany vs KL, Arya reaching Winterfell and Sam finding the solution to the Night King all happening within two episodes.


Edit: As for the Tyrell's falling and the reason I disliked it, is based on how effortless everything looked and how little was shown. The Tyrell's aren't know for fighting, but seeing their stronghold fall in three minutes is a joke. That taking Highgarden looked easier than a barely manned Castlery Rock is just disappointing. This season some forces have had wins handed to them with what looks like no effort. Euron destroyign entire fleets and taking out several people in personal combat, castles falling in minutes, and people switching sides in a scene to betray longtime alliances. It all feels to easy and there's barely any time dedicated to how anyone prepares for these choices or battles.

 

[KahooTs]

The story of the Tarly's switching sides was told, too.

The implications were not conveyed to the viewer in any sense, unlike with Robb. That's the difference between the show then and now and why it rings hollow.

 

[Slater]

I do wonder why people pine for WoW anyway at this point. It's going to have all the same shitty problems the last 2 had cause he never listens to his editors. The sample chapters already prove that.

Excited to see fake Aegon fail super hard I guess? Or Arrianna fuck around doing nothing productive? Shireen? Hodor? Jon? All been done already.

Tsk, if only Martin had Sandersons word ethic and willingness to listen to editors. Both the show and books should be much better off.

 

[KahooTs]

I do wonder why people pine for WoW anyway at this point.It's going to have all the same shitty problems the last 2 had cause he never listens to his editors. The sample chapters already prove that.

Excited to see fake Aegon fail super hard I guess? Or Arrianna fuck around doing nothing productive? Shireen? Hodor? Jon? All been done already.

Tsk, if only Martin had Sandersons word ethic and willingness to listen to editors. Both the show and books should be much better off.

Some people enjoy good literature.

 

[Slater]

Some people enjoy good literature.

Then they must have hated AFFC and ADWD

 

[finowns]

I do wonder why people pine for WoW anyway at this point. It's going to have all the same shitty problems the last 2 had cause he never listens to his editors. The sample chapters already prove that.

Excited to see fake Aegon fail super hard I guess? Or Arrianna fuck around doing nothing productive? Shireen? Hodor? Jon? All been done already.

Tsk, if only Martin had Sandersons word ethic and willingness to listen to editors. Both the show and books should be much better off.

The main reason is they want to see what GRRM has made, he has done some pretty cool stuff.

 

[Chumley]

Then they must have hated AFFC and ADWD

ADWD was one thousand pages and the majority of it was great, and the entire Theon plot was the best writing GRRM has ever done. Nonsense hyperbole that the entire book was bad doesn't make for a good discussion because it's just not true, unless you've always hated GRRM's writing.

I do wonder why people pine for WoW anyway at this point.

Aside from GRRM being my favorite fantasy writer ever, I'm interested in all the plots besides Dany's and I primarily want to know how the Stannis cliffhanger is resolved.

 

[Oldest Snake]

Btw isn't Dragonsreach supposed to have a town, and port? I thought Davos went to an inn at one point either when he returned from Kings Landing, or when he was plotting to free Stannis from Mel.

It's small, but you're correct. Dragonstone is both the name of the castle and the island, which is why it has a small town/port. I don't remember seeing any evidence of it in the show even back in season 2/3.

 

[KahooTs]

Then they must have hated AFFC and ADWD

So much so that each novel was more successful on release than the last. Must be really turning readers off.

 

[Slater]

So much so that each novel was more successful on release than the last. Must be really turning readers off.

ADWD came out after the show raised the products profile. And if numbers are how we're judging the quality....well then this season of the show would be the best of them all yeah? Must be really turning the watchers off? And season 5 must have been twice as good as season 1.

Lol

 

[KahooTs]

ADWD came out after the show raised the products profile. And if numbers are how we're judging the quality....well then this season of the show would be the best of them all yeah? Must be really turning the watchers off? And season 5 must have been twice as good as season 1.

Lol

By what standard do you want to debate quality then? I mean, you brought up Sanderson.

 

[higgsboson1997]

yep, they're going by way too fast

remember when season 3 had like 7 scenes about theon's torture :/

glad they wasted time on that and now we're stuck racing through the climax without proper gravitas or enjoyable filler/banter

I feel like this season has had more enjoyable filler than most others. The Hound at the inn, Arya with the Lannister soldiers, etc were all fantastic.

I think this has the potential to be one of the stronger seasons of the show for me - I really like the writing so far and where the developments are leading. I also think the pacing has been great. I've never enjoyed ASOIAF as much as I enjoyed the very first book, and I think this seasons has very similar pacing to that one.

 

[Slater]

By what standard do you want to debate quality then? I mean, you brought up Sanderson.

Don't think there is anything to debate. Rare is the fan of the books who doesn't notice the massive problems with the last 2 books and compares them poorly to the first 3.

As for Sanderson, his work ethic isn't arguable, and if Martin had half of it the books would be done.

But then, talking about his other book series that nobody on the planet gives a fuck about takes up most of his time these days. Shame, keeps us from getting more of his later day "Marish swamp" writing. Real high quality stuff I tell ya what

 

[Chumley]

Don't think there is anything to debate.

You can try and start by actually explaining how every single bit of both books was bad instead of making blanket statements. If you don't want to debate the merits of the books all you're doing is shitposting.

 

[KahooTs]

Don't think there is anything to debate. Rare is the fan of the books who doesn't notice the massive problems with the last 2 books and compares them poorly to the first 3.

No, the fan knows what they're reading and it is why his next book is so wildly anticipated. We enjoy crafted quality literature, arcs and themes, of which we won't get from a Sanderson.

 

[Lord of Castamere]

Seems to be a standard attack. Insert "wet pink mast" " or Myrish swamp" as a blanket. Handwave the wonderful Victarion or Selmy chapters as filer or bloat. Finish with the books not coming out anyway. Rinse repeat.

 

[higgsboson1997]

ADWD was one thousand pages and the majority of it was great, and the entire Theon plot was the best writing GRRM has ever done. Nonsense hyperbole that the entire book was bad doesn't make for a good discussion because it's just not true, unless you've always hated GRRM's writing.

Theon's chapters were fantastic. Bran's and Davos's were good too. The rest of it really made me question why I still read this series.

The 3 primary ASOIAF characters - Jon, Dany, and Tyrion - have some of the most plodding arcs I've seen in recent fantasy series. It is on par with the middle Wheel of Time books, where it feels like there was no sense of purpose in where GRRM was taking the story. The same things he took 10+ chapters to tell for each of the characters in AFFC/ADWD could have been done in 3-4 chapters in the first three books.

I also got the feeling that he was just adding things without have any sense of how it was going to go down. The Greyjoys, Martells, Aegon, etc are characters I personally find either completely flat (Arianne) or caroony (Euron). So far, with what we know of TWOW, there's no indication that things will improve. And while Martin's writing is easy to read, it's not some stellar prose that makes keeps me invested even as the pacing is slowed to a crawl with no interesting developments.

I loved ASOIAF and, when I read the first three books several years back, I thought this was by far the greatest series I'd ever read. Then Feast came out, followed by Dance, and it has fallen considerably imo. I'm still astounded by how opinions on them have changed to them being accepted more in the last 5 years or so. Many works of fantasy are better, and I personally think the show adaptation is stonger than the books.

 

[wesleyshark]

The teleporting is really starting to irk me. I thought it was bad before, but wow.

7 episodes... Large chunks of time pass between scenes and episodes themselves. Not all of this is happening in real time. No one is teleporting lol.

 

[Blue Ninja]

Goddamn, Dany keeps taking L's. Didn't expect that at the end of last season.