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[Gold_Loot]

It depends on the game, a game like Siege has no AA and can be played without AA and the players can still be competitive. But that's a different kind of game. Killzone Shadowfall is another console FPS without AA and you can see how slow that game plays in comparison.

The kind of gameplay and "gunplay" Destiny offers, is just not possible to have without the AA it has. Bungie are masters of console shooters (hell they invented modern console shooter controls) and they know what's needed to make a movement based FPS feel good on a controller.

One of the most amazing things about Destiny was that you had a console shooter where you are shooting while being constantly on the move jumping, hipfiring, shooting with instincts. In that, Destiny is unique and even shooters like Titanfall don't offer that because despite the fast traversal system the actual shooting/gunplay (on consoles) is slower and grounded compared to Destiny. And this is why you don't really do these things in any console shooter because the system just isn't built around it to support that...especially when it's a game without AA.

While yes, you're right about that I would argue that you can play a game like Destiny without AA enabled. I think not many people know the beauty of bumper jumping yet. But yes, it would be harder for sure and dare I say it ,more fun

Would be cool to set up a friendly match with no AA to see how it pans out.

 

[currynation]

I own a XIM and have used it in Destiny, and I can say that it makes guns with fast bullet travel much easier to use. I can say that aiming in Destiny 2 PC is easier with Aim assist but the recoil felt different.

XIM doesn't make me a instantly win & 180 turning is harder but it DEFINITELY does improve my accuracy compared to regular KB+M.

 

[janoDX]

I own a XIM and have used it in Destiny, and I can say that it makes guns with fast bullet travel much easier to use. I can say that aiming in Destiny 2 PC is easier with Aim assist but the recoil felt different.

XIM doesn't make me a instantly win & 180 turning is harder but it DEFINITELY does improve my accuracy compared to regular KB+M.

Stop using XIM

 

[VisceralBowl]

so does this automatically grant you AA then? Can you see if your reticule actually focuses on a target while aiming?

Because holy shit that sounds....really bad...

Based on my attempt to use a controller for movement and mouse at the same time the game will only take input from one or the other but not at the same time so I don't know how that would respond to that kind of mouse.

 

[Terrifyer]

I'm all for them including AA for controllers and not for kb/m. I think it presents a really messy balancing problem, but it's a nice idea in theory.

The problem is that it's impossible to do it in practice without creating the obviously too powerful combination of kb/m with AA. This can be accomplished on PC, AFAIK, with some free, commonly used controller emulating software utilities and it seems really likely that there's nothing consumer friendly bungie can do to stop this. The setup to do this will only become easier if the game releases this way.

Exploits will always exist, but I think there's a big difference between paying for some sketchy closed source aimbot that has to interact with the game and risk detection vs. just installing some free, often open source and ubiquitous utilities that interact with the OS only.

I think the solution is for them to tone down the AA, add it to the kb/m experience with an on/off setting and remove recoil from the controller experience.

IIRC the division had similar issues with trusting the client too much on PC and was an exploitable mess when it launched until they (maybe) cleaned some of it up with patches later.

 

[mcrommert]

Ban mouse
Lol

 

[texhnolyze]

Yea lets remove kb/m instead!!!

Spoiler

/s

Thank you for your contribution, thread starter.

Based on my attempt to use a controller for movement and mouse at the same time the game will only take input from one or the other but not at the same time so I don't know how that would respond to that kind of mouse.

You, you can't simply plug a controller in and emulate aim assist whilst using a kb/m. You need to setup/install certain device or program (way easier and free) to enable it. It's basically cheating, or somewhat cheating. Because it's been mentioned that the advantage is actually debatable. Pure kb/m user might still be at advantage.

 

[Ivory Samoan]

Honestly after playing half the beta with PC and half with controller, they're both fine in PvE, but the aim-assisted tracking is a tad too high on controller in PvP. If you're at all good with one, it's so much easier to hit headshots on controller compared to MKB.

Maybe if they change it to only snap onto body and make the players manually adjust every shot to the head it'd be fine. Still eliminates strafing though, needs to be toned down a bit.

If AA needs to be toned down on controllers, then recoil on KB+M needs to be bumped up: SMG is lazer right now with hipfire, unfair is as unfair does, if we're doing comparisons/balancing here.

 

[Cypren]

I might be misunderstanding something here, but it seems like it should be fairly easy for the game to monitor input on all hardware pointing devices on the system, and if movement is detected on any of them, disable aim assist for a period of time. (Even a quarter of a second would be sufficient since the cheat relies on you being able to move your mouse and receive aim assistance at the same time.)

This could only be bypassed by custom hardware or a device driver which allows a person to attach a mouse to the system and have it identify not as a pointing device, but as a controller (similar to a XIM). In return, the person using the cheat would be limited to all of the usual problems that affect XIM players: inability to do quick spins, rapid precision shots, etc. These problems haven't caused the collapse of the PVP ecosystem on consoles and don't seem likely to cause a major problem on PCs either, especially when placed up against players with the full precision of an unhampered M/KB setup.

Can someone give me a solid technical reason that this wouldn't work?

* Edited to add: obviously these protections could also be bypassed by hot-patching the executable in memory, but if you can do that without being caught by the anti-cheat system, you can write a conventional aimbot anyway.

 

[Koki]

Couldn't they just add a Controller/Aim Assist only Crucible playlist to pit all of those guys together?

 

[Fitts]

Couldn't they just add a Controller/Aim Assist only Crucible playlist to pit all of those guys together?

Because fragmenting a player base has never been a good idea.

 

[Koki]

Because fragmenting a player base has never been a good idea.

PvE is the main draw of the game, I don't see an issue with splitting the community regarding the PvP aspects. Everyone is happy.

 

[vasametropolis]

I appreciate a sticky reticle with a controller (slows down near the enemy) at high sensitivities because it makes it playable. Overwatch there are several characters that don't require good aiming so it's fine. This game probably needs something, although the snapping is completely unnecessary.

 

[RichiRamjag]

PvE is the main draw of the game, I don't see an issue with splitting the community regarding the PvP aspects. Everyone is happy.

PvP is what keeps that community active long term.

PVP kept the game going (Trials) for years - I'm guessing you didn't play D1....

What I'm saying.

 

[Ivory Samoan]

PvE is the main draw of the game, I don't see an issue with splitting the community regarding the PvP aspects. Everyone is happy.

PVP kept the game going (Trials) for years - I'm guessing you didn't play D1....

 

[Koki]

PVP kept the game going (Trials) for years - I'm guessing you didn't play D1....

Played up to TKK, that was my last raid before I moved on.

I enjoyed the PvP myself, but I'd be surprised if someone showed me the receipts regarding why people play Destiny, and PvP comes out on top.

All in all, I stand by splitting the PvP community if Bungie is adamant about keeping AA in the PC version.

 

[Huge Succeeded]

I think I've actually flipped sides on this debate. I know that some feel strongly about Destiny PVP, but as someone who's never been able to take it too seriously, I am sort of interested in seeing the sort of 'flavor' that results from kb/m and controller effectively being two different gameplay schemes sharing one game. Especially for the sort of community engagements that might arise. Competitions between groups of mouse players and groups of controller players, rivalries and such. Unified communities of pad players and mouse players alike taking advantage of their 'game's' quirks in tandem. Could be neat. It'd certainly be a sort of unique thing among PC shooters, and I'm starting to feel the idea shared in this thread, that, y'know, there's tons of PC games with a more even playing field than this... might as well let this one be the fuckin' party zone right, I mean it's Destiny
Bungie should revisit this topic after the game's been out for a few weeks, after there's a little more indication whether this upsets the game's balance in a way that's truly egregious in practice.

 

[firehawk12]

It didn't even occur to me that controllers would work on the PC version. Seems like a nightmare to balance for both and I would just assume they disable auto aim entirely.

 

[MaLDo]

I think I've actually flipped sides on this debate. I know that some feel strongly about Destiny PVP, but as someone who's never been able to take it too seriously, I am sort of interested in seeing the sort of 'flavor' that results from kb/m and controller effectively being two different gameplay schemes sharing one game. Especially for the sort of community engagements that might arise. Competitions between groups of mouse players and groups of controller players, rivalries and such. Unified communities of pad players and mouse players alike taking advantage of their 'game's' quirks in tandem. Could be neat. It'd certainly be a sort of unique thing among PC shooters, and I'm starting to feel the idea shared in this thread, that, y'know, there's tons of PC games with a more even playing field than this... might as well let this one be the fuckin' party zone right, I mean it's Destiny
Bungie should revisit this topic after the game's been out for a few weeks, after there's a little more indication whether this upsets the game's balance in a way that's truly egregious in practice.

Lots of games do that. Titanfall 1 and 2, COD, BF....

 

[Cypren]

It didn't even occur to me that controllers would work on the PC version. Seems like a nightmare to balance for both and I would just assume they disable auto aim entirely.

A lot of angry players are advocating for this, but I'm sincerely hoping they don't give into the pressure. Disable auto-aim for mouse/keyboard players, sure. But disabling it for controllers will make it basically impossible to use them.

As a console player I'm looking forward to coming over to PC for the uncapped frame rates and 4K rendering. But I don't really want to have to relearn the game with mouse/keyboard when I'm already very comfortable with a controller. Controller players, even _with_ auto-aim, will still be at a disadvantage to M/KB players in PVP because we can't do snap aiming and 180 degree spins. There's no need to make it even worse by taking away the necessary crutch that allows us to compete at all.

If Bungie wants an incredibly blunt but effective solution, they can just disable aim assist entirely when there's a pointing device of any sort plugged into the system. I'm okay with unplugging my mouse to play if it means I can have the same controller experience on the PC that I do on console.

 

[Sniffynose]

I like playing games on PC with a controller, I did great in Gears 4/Borderlands etc and was really debating D2 on PC vs PS4 but seems the pitchforks are out already so guess if I do get D2 it will be for PS4 even though I could run it much better on my PC.

 

[ChazGW7]

I hope Bungie just removes AA altogether from atleast PVP modes. PVE is fine.

Disable auto-aim for mouse/keyboard players, sure.

The problem is that there doesn't seem to be a way to do this without removing AA altogether. The problem is outside of the game, where you trick the OS into thinking you're using a controller. A game can't fix that, its tied into Windows.

As a console player I'm looking forward to coming over to PC for the uncapped frame rates and 4K rendering. But I don't really want to have to relearn the game with mouse/keyboard when I'm already very comfortable with a controller.

and we're happy to have you, but not at the cost of one of the things that makes PC gaming so good - M+KB allowing you to translate how skilled you really are at a video game. If I am going to be getting killed because a controller player can pull a trigger and suddenly snap to my head, its not an even playing field. (Im not saying controllers require no skill, I just think its a different world to m+kb, im having a hard time picturing them working out together) You are having a system help you compete. You might think I am taking it too seriously, I probably am. I've played too much CS:GO it seems.

If Bungie wants an incredibly blunt but effective solution, they can just disable aim assist entirely when there's a pointing device of any sort plugged into the system. I'm okay with unplugging my mouse to play if it means I can have the same controller experience on the PC that I do on console.

Even if that could work, Bungie wouldn't do it. It's too much of a hassle for the player in Bungie's eyes, they need something simpler.

 

[MaLDo]

I hope Bungie just removes AA altogether from atleast PVP modes. PVE is fine.



The problem is that there doesn't seem to be a way to do this without removing AA altogether. The problem is outside of the game, where you trick the OS into thinking you're using a controller. A game can't fix that, its tied into Windows.



and we're happy to have you, but not at the cost of one of the things that makes PC gaming so good - M+KB allowing you to translate how skilled you really are at a video game. If I am going to be getting killed because a controller player can pull a trigger and suddenly snap to my head, its not an even playing field. (Im not saying controllers require no skill, I just think its a different world to m+kb, im having a hard time picturing them working out together) You are having a system help you compete. You might think I am taking it too seriously, I probably am. I've played too much CS:GO it seems.



Even if that could work, Bungie wouldn't do it. It's too much of a hassle for the player in Bungie's eyes, they need something simpler.

And you are ignoring every message here detailing why using AA with mouse is not a clear advantage in PC because has lots of drawbacks.

 

[Cypren]

The problem is that there doesn't seem to be a way to do this without removing AA altogether. The problem is outside of the game, where you trick the OS into thinking you're using a controller. A game can't fix that, its tied into Windows.

As I pointed out in an earlier post, there's a technical solution to this: briefly disable aim assist when any movement input is received on any pointing device on the system. This prevents simple user-mode software solutions (like the ones being listed right now on Reddit) from working completely, since the game may think you're inputting with a controller, but it can still detect the mouse inputs behind the scenes. Subverting this protection would require a custom driver.

One of the major things Bungie has going for them is that the game isn't being released on Windows XP. Starting with Windows Vista, hardware device drivers have to be Microsoft-signed with an expensive license, or a system has to be booted into the test-signing mode which allows unsigned drivers. This makes exploit drivers easily detectable and allows Bungie to disable aim assist for (or suspend/ban) people who run the game in test-signing mode or use any software-only solutions for "hiding" the existence of their mouse and pretending it's a controller (once they know the software exists). The cost of the signing license means that playing the usual game of exploit whack-a-mole is prohibitively expensive (~$5000 for a new USB-IF vendor ID every time Bungie bans your exploit, plus a few hundred bucks for a certificate, and months to get through certification/approval). Even if the exploit is sold to recoup the monetary cost of the cert, who's going to keep buying it once they realize that it only lasts a few days before Bungie bans it again, and then it's unusable for months until they can buy another one?

Doing this would prevent any software-only solution that doesn't directly hack the client EXE (and if you can hack the client undetectably, you can write a real aimbot with perfect aim; there's no need to mess with emulating a controller) from working and basically restrict the number of players who can use the aim-assisted mouse to those willing to buy a XIM or similar hardware device, just like on console. Given that XIM players haven't managed to disrupt the console ecosystem, where they have a very significant advantage over regular controller players, it seems hard to fathom that they would be a significant influence on the PC ecosystem where the default controller scheme already gives most of the same advantages. Remember that XIM-emulation has many of the same disadvantages of controllers themselves (reduced turning speed, limited precision) on top of needing a $100+ breakout box to make it work.

 

[martino]

As I pointed out in an earlier post, there's a technical solution to this: briefly disable aim assist when any movement input is received on any pointing device on the system.

One of the major things Bungie has going for them is that the game isn't being released on Windows XP. Starting with Windows Vista, hardware device drivers have to be Microsoft-signed with an expensive license, or a system has to be booted into the test-signing mode which allows unsigned drivers. This makes exploit drivers easily detectable and allows Bungie to disable aim assist for (or suspend/ban) people who run the game in test-signing mode or use any software-only solutions for "hiding" the existence of their mouse and pretending it's a controller (once they know the software exists). The cost of the signing license means that playing the usual game of exploit whack-a-mole is prohibitively expensive (~$5000 for a new USB-IF vendor ID every time Bungie bans your exploit, plus a few hundred bucks for a certificate, and months to get through certification/approval). Even if the exploit is sold to recoup the monetary cost of the cert, who's going to keep buying it once they realize that it only lasts a few days before Bungie bans it again, and then it's unusable for months until they can buy another one?

Doing this would prevent any software-only solution that doesn't directly hack the client EXE (and if you can hack the client undetectably, you can write a real aimbot with perfect aim; there's no need to mess with emulating a controller) from working and basically restrict the number of players who can use the aim-assisted mouse to those willing to buy a XIM or similar hardware device, just like on console. Given that XIM players haven't managed to disrupt the console ecosystem, where they have a very significant advantage over regular controller players, it seems hard to fathom that they would be a significant influence on the PC ecosystem where the default controller scheme already gives most of the same advantages. Remember that XIM-emulation has many of the same disadvantages of controllers themselves (reduced turning speed, limited precision) on top of needing a $100+ breakout box to make it work.

Interesting but don't most emulator for directinput -> xinput come with signed driver ?
I used them on some games and i don't have to boot my windows in test signing mode.
if yes, using them to emulate xinput from keybaord could work

 

[Cypren]

Interesting but don't most emulator for directinput -> xinput comes with signed driver ?
I used them on some games and i don't have to boot my windows in test signing mode.
if yes, using thoses driver to simulate xinput from keybaord could work

The current ones that I know about, at least, don't go to the trouble of hiding the driver for the pointing device; they use it in order to get the inputs to translate. That means Bungie can still see the pointing device and capture its inputs as well, which again allows them to negate auto-aim because the mouse is still visible to the game. The kind of driver that would be necessary to get around this protection would have to completely hide the existence of the pointing device at the system level, which means it has to fully implement a mouse driver for the device as well as the controller emulation for it; whatever mouse you hooked up via this system would be unusable as a mouse until you removed the driver.

And once someone does this and makes it sufficiently available that Bungie can get a copy, the driver can be detected and the game can disable aim assist if it's found on the system, which triggers the whack-a-mole game I mentioned earlier at a cost of $5000+ to the exploiter every time it gets banned. (Not to mention Bungie's ability to ban all of the accounts of the people who used it as well.)

I would ask everyone participating in this discussion to please keep in mind that being banned for cheating in a game like Destiny, where people have hundreds or thousands of hours of investment into a character, is a very different prospect than being banned in a game like CS:GO, where you simply buy another copy and continue playing. Destiny characters are defined by their gear, much of which takes dozens or hundreds of hours to acquire, and starting over from scratch every time you're caught cheating is a massive deterrent completely unlike a traditional competitive shooter. Punishment doesn't need to be swift, only certain, for the deterrent to have the desired effect.

 

[JoeLT]

The current ones that I know about, at least, don't go to the trouble of hiding the driver for the pointing device; they use it in order to get the inputs to translate. That means Bungie can still see the pointing device and capture its inputs as well, which again allows them to negate auto-aim because the mouse is still visible to the game. The kind of driver that would be necessary to get around this protection would have to completely hide the existence of the pointing device at the system level, which means it has to fully implement a mouse driver for the device as well as the controller emulation for it; whatever mouse you hooked up via this system would be unusable as a mouse until you removed the driver.

And once someone does this and makes it sufficiently available that Bungie can get a copy, the driver can be detected and the game can disable aim assist if it's found on the system, which triggers the whack-a-mole game I mentioned earlier at a cost of $5000+ to the exploiter every time it gets banned. (Not to mention Bungie's ability to ban all of the accounts of the people who used it as well.)

I would ask everyone participating in this discussion to please keep in mind that being banned for cheating in a game like Destiny, where people have hundreds or thousands of hours of investment into a character, is a very different prospect than being banned in a game like CS:GO, where you simply buy another copy and continue playing. Destiny characters are defined by their gear, much of which takes dozens or hundreds of hours to acquire, and starting over from scratch every time you're caught cheating is a massive deterrent completely unlike a traditional competitive shooter. Punishment doesn't need to be swift, only certain, for the deterrent to have the desired effect.

Wow, this actually sounds like a possible solution

 

[TSM]

As I pointed out in an earlier post, there's a technical solution to this: briefly disable aim assist when any movement input is received on any pointing device on the system. This prevents simple user-mode software solutions (like the ones being listed right now on Reddit) from working completely, since the game may think you're inputting with a controller, but it can still detect the mouse inputs behind the scenes. Subverting this protection would require a custom driver.

One of the major things Bungie has going for them is that the game isn't being released on Windows XP. Starting with Windows Vista, hardware device drivers have to be Microsoft-signed with an expensive license, or a system has to be booted into the test-signing mode which allows unsigned drivers. This makes exploit drivers easily detectable and allows Bungie to disable aim assist for (or suspend/ban) people who run the game in test-signing mode or use any software-only solutions for "hiding" the existence of their mouse and pretending it's a controller (once they know the software exists). The cost of the signing license means that playing the usual game of exploit whack-a-mole is prohibitively expensive (~$5000 for a new USB-IF vendor ID every time Bungie bans your exploit, plus a few hundred bucks for a certificate, and months to get through certification/approval). Even if the exploit is sold to recoup the monetary cost of the cert, who's going to keep buying it once they realize that it only lasts a few days before Bungie bans it again, and then it's unusable for months until they can buy another one?

Doing this would prevent any software-only solution that doesn't directly hack the client EXE (and if you can hack the client undetectably, you can write a real aimbot with perfect aim; there's no need to mess with emulating a controller) from working and basically restrict the number of players who can use the aim-assisted mouse to those willing to buy a XIM or similar hardware device, just like on console. Given that XIM players haven't managed to disrupt the console ecosystem, where they have a very significant advantage over regular controller players, it seems hard to fathom that they would be a significant influence on the PC ecosystem where the default controller scheme already gives most of the same advantages. Remember that XIM-emulation has many of the same disadvantages of controllers themselves (reduced turning speed, limited precision) on top of needing a $100+ breakout box to make it work.

This doesn't work on the PS4 since the devices piggyback off an actual controller. What's to stop someone from just piggybacking off an approved device?

 

[Cypren]

This doesn't work on the PS4 since the devices piggyback off an actual controller. What's to stop someone from just piggybacking off an approved device?

Nothing at all. But like I said earlier, XIM has been around for years and hasn't managed to destroy the console PVP ecosystem in Destiny 1, CoD or any other major competitive shooter. People bitch about its existence, sure, but the cost of the device winds up being a pretty effective deterrent for all but a small handful of people.

And a XIM player on a PS4 or Xbox has a huge advantage over a controller player by comparison to what they'll have over a mouse/keyboard player on the PC. I'd be shocked if you see it being more utilized.

The goal of my proposed solution is to prevent software-only controller emulation solutions from working, since they're cheap and have zero marginal cost to replicate. Expensive hardware solutions are a different problem, and one that isn't really possible to permanently solve. A sufficiently determined hardware engineer can make a perfect aimbot that's completely undetectable to the game if they really want to; the deterrent is in cost, effort and expense of replicating it for other people.

One guy somewhere having an aimbot isn't likely to make a noticeable difference. A hundred thousand having it will.

 

[JoeLT]

Nothing at all. But like I said earlier, XIM has been around for years and hasn't managed to destroy the console PVP ecosystem in Destiny 1, CoD or any other major competitive shooter. People bitch about its existence, sure, but the cost of the device winds up being a pretty effective deterrent for all but a small handful of people.

And a XIM player on a PS4 or Xbox has a huge advantage over a controller player by comparison to what they'll have over a mouse/keyboard player on the PC. I'd be shocked if you see it being more utilized.

Yep basically this.

 

[ChazGW7]

As I pointed out in an earlier post, there's a technical solution to this: briefly disable aim assist when any movement input is received on any pointing device on the system. This prevents simple user-mode software solutions (like the ones being listed right now on Reddit) from working completely, since the game may think you're inputting with a controller, but it can still detect the mouse inputs behind the scenes. Subverting this protection would require a custom driver.

One of the major things Bungie has going for them is that the game isn't being released on Windows XP. Starting with Windows Vista, hardware device drivers have to be Microsoft-signed with an expensive license, or a system has to be booted into the test-signing mode which allows unsigned drivers. This makes exploit drivers easily detectable and allows Bungie to disable aim assist for (or suspend/ban) people who run the game in test-signing mode or use any software-only solutions for "hiding" the existence of their mouse and pretending it's a controller (once they know the software exists). The cost of the signing license means that playing the usual game of exploit whack-a-mole is prohibitively expensive (~$5000 for a new USB-IF vendor ID every time Bungie bans your exploit, plus a few hundred bucks for a certificate, and months to get through certification/approval). Even if the exploit is sold to recoup the monetary cost of the cert, who's going to keep buying it once they realize that it only lasts a few days before Bungie bans it again, and then it's unusable for months until they can buy another one?

Doing this would prevent any software-only solution that doesn't directly hack the client EXE (and if you can hack the client undetectably, you can write a real aimbot with perfect aim; there's no need to mess with emulating a controller) from working and basically restrict the number of players who can use the aim-assisted mouse to those willing to buy a XIM or similar hardware device, just like on console. Given that XIM players haven't managed to disrupt the console ecosystem, where they have a very significant advantage over regular controller players, it seems hard to fathom that they would be a significant influence on the PC ecosystem where the default controller scheme already gives most of the same advantages. Remember that XIM-emulation has many of the same disadvantages of controllers themselves (reduced turning speed, limited precision) on top of needing a $100+ breakout box to make it work.

Excellent post, you clearly know what you're talking about. I hope Bungie can look into something like that and come up with a solution. Thanks for the explanation.

And you are ignoring every message here detailing why using AA with mouse is not a clear advantage in PC because has lots of drawbacks.

No i'm not, I just think thats bullshit.

 

[jaosobno]

As I pointed out in an earlier post, there's a technical solution to this: briefly disable aim assist when any movement input is received on any pointing device on the system. This prevents simple user-mode software solutions (like the ones being listed right now on Reddit) from working completely, since the game may think you're inputting with a controller, but it can still detect the mouse inputs behind the scenes. Subverting this protection would require a custom driver.

One of the major things Bungie has going for them is that the game isn't being released on Windows XP. Starting with Windows Vista, hardware device drivers have to be Microsoft-signed with an expensive license, or a system has to be booted into the test-signing mode which allows unsigned drivers. This makes exploit drivers easily detectable and allows Bungie to disable aim assist for (or suspend/ban) people who run the game in test-signing mode or use any software-only solutions for "hiding" the existence of their mouse and pretending it's a controller (once they know the software exists). The cost of the signing license means that playing the usual game of exploit whack-a-mole is prohibitively expensive (~$5000 for a new USB-IF vendor ID every time Bungie bans your exploit, plus a few hundred bucks for a certificate, and months to get through certification/approval). Even if the exploit is sold to recoup the monetary cost of the cert, who's going to keep buying it once they realize that it only lasts a few days before Bungie bans it again, and then it's unusable for months until they can buy another one?

Doing this would prevent any software-only solution that doesn't directly hack the client EXE (and if you can hack the client undetectably, you can write a real aimbot with perfect aim; there's no need to mess with emulating a controller) from working and basically restrict the number of players who can use the aim-assisted mouse to those willing to buy a XIM or similar hardware device, just like on console. Given that XIM players haven't managed to disrupt the console ecosystem, where they have a very significant advantage over regular controller players, it seems hard to fathom that they would be a significant influence on the PC ecosystem where the default controller scheme already gives most of the same advantages. Remember that XIM-emulation has many of the same disadvantages of controllers themselves (reduced turning speed, limited precision) on top of needing a $100+ breakout box to make it work.

Just wanted to thank you for writing a great, informative post.

 

[VlaudTheImpaler]

I don't care what they do as long as they implement C+M so that I can actually play this game.

Question. As an alternative and last resort in the meantime. Could it be possible to use something like Joy2key to set up C+M? I realize I would be giving up the precision of analog movement by having to map wasd to the left thumbstick but I think I could deal with it for now.

Has anyone tried this? Would it work with the paddles on the back of the Elite controller?

EDIT: Be back in a couple hours, have to go look at house.

 

[tuxfool]

Alternatively people could just get a Steam controller. You get closer to mouse snappiness but remain using a controller. The right TouchPad can be used in a first order aiming mode instead of the bullshit that is first order integration of a joystick velocity.

 

[MaLDo]

No i'm not, I just think thats bullshit.

What do you mean?

You can't move your character like using a mouse with aim assist on top of that.

For aim assist to work in Destiny 2 you have to use the controller scheme that means, that if you're using a mouse device masked as a controller, you will be in fact emulating a controller with your mouse. And that means reduced speed, reduced acceleration and not at all 1:1 movement. You can find footage of someone using a mouse with aim assist activated like a controller, but you will find that him will have very increased recoil and a lot of problems to move perfectly through the map because the character can not be controlled like if he was using a mouse + mouse control scheme.

 

[SpiceMelange]

Excellent post, you clearly know what you're talking about. I hope Bungie can look into something like that and come up with a solution. Thanks for the explanation.



No i'm not, I just think thats bullshit.

How is it bullshit? Please explain. The downsides of emulating an analog stick were very well laid out.

 

[martino]

Excellent post, you clearly know what you're talking about. I hope Bungie can look into something like that and come up with a solution. Thanks for the explanation.



No i'm not, I just think thats bullshit.

It's more thoughtful and less bullshit than video interpretations done by thoses who want aa gone and "make it a problem"

 

[rodrigolfp]

Alternatively people could just get a Steam controller. You get closer to mouse snappiness but remain using a controller. The right TouchPad can be used in a first order aiming mode instead of the bullshit that is first order integration of a joystick velocity.

better input methods are not options for some people. they still prefer sticking to worse inputs for whatever reasons and want bullshit help from assists...

 

[Gragen]

I doubt that they straight up disable AA. I could see them making adjustments. It's going to be funny when you see topics like the current meta. High RoF pulse rifles, sticky grenades and controller.

 

[FX-GMC]

better input methods are not options for some people. they still prefer sticking to worse inputs for whatever reasons and want bullshit help from assists...

You're making a mess with all that salt.

 

[nOoblet16]

While yes, you're right about that I would argue that you can play a game like Destiny without AA enabled. I think not many people know the beauty of bumper jumping yet. But yes, it would be harder for sure and dare I say it ,more fun

Would be cool to set up a friendly match with no AA to see how it pans out.

I play every single console shooter with bumper jumper if there's an option. It's not just that it'd be hard, it's that it just wouldn't be fun in he same way because you'll lose one of the very essence of what makes Destiny's gunplay so amazing. It's far less fun to play a game which is meant to be about instinctive shooting when you are spending your time doing he exact opposite of instinctive shooting i.e. carefully aligning your shots and taking time.

You almost never get the feeling in Destiny that you aren't able to do what you want to do, if there was no AA you would get a whole load of "I intended to hit but missed all my shots because my reticule was a millimetre away from the target" situations. Destiny isn't a game about pin point accurate shooting, that's not where the skill comes in. The skill comes in the quick decision making i.e. do I swap to my sniper while jumping and take a shot before reloading my primary in cover? Do I take a risk a total wipe by popping out of cover while low on health if it means I could save my buddy? Do I pop my golden gun mod air and take advantage of airborne modifier by shooting 4 different targets while still in the air? The metagame of destiny revolves around this and it's the only console shooter I can think of where you are doing all of this so quickly. But when you make the meta game about making sure all or most of your concentration is dedicated to aligning your shots then you will slow down the game as people simply will not take the risks knowing that there is a greater chance of them not accomplishing what they intend to do than the chance that they succeed. The balance between risk-reward gets skewed. Without AA on consoles, abilities like blinks would get abused so much because it would be so hard to track enemies while much easier for the blinker to just shoot in your face knowing that you can't track them as well and that they have the upper hand everytime by default.


Maybe a tiny fraction of the crowd would find that amazing and fun but for the vast majority that play Destiny they would have to slow down so much in order to even got a shot that it'd just destroy the Destiny gameplay as we know own of...for them.



Trust me when I say this, Destiny would be a different game if it didn't have AA...and it'd be for the worse.

 

[ChazGW7]

What do you mean?

You can't move your character like using a mouse with aim assist on top of that.

How is it bullshit? Please explain. The downsides of emulating an analog stick were very well laid out.

It's more thoughtful and less bullshit than video interpretations done by thoses who want aa gone and "make it a problem"

Poor choice of words on my part, I apologize. I don't mean its bullshit as in 'I don't believe you', I just don't think its the correct path to take in finding a middle ground/solution. It feels like stepping on the lines of 'just ignore it, it won't be an issue'. It could become an issue and I just feel like a proper system for both would work in everyone's benefit (kb+m and gamepad).

If a solution can't be found? I still say remove AA from PvP. I hope that doesn't have to be the solution though.

 

[rodrigolfp]

You're making a mess with all that salt.

people that don't like the idea of removing AA like OP is suggesting are the salt ones. it is the best solution like Overwatch did. don't like it, git gud or switch your worse input method...

 

[OriginalPoe]

So do people still think the aim assist literally snaps the cursor to people's heads? Lol...

 

[lumzi23]

I don't think adding aim assist to the PC's versions PvP or Multiplayer modes to dumb it down or whatever is fair to PC gamers (assuming that is what is happening).

 

[MaLDo]

people that don't like the idea of removing AA like OP is suggesting are the salt ones. it is the best solution like Overwatch did. don't like it, git gud or switch your worse input method...

Currently Overwatch can't be played with a controller in PC. It's unfair.

That's not a solution. Do you feel better with that situation?

 

[rodrigolfp]

Currently Overwatch can't be played with a controller in PC. It's unfair.

That's not a solution. Do you feel better with that situation?

you can't or no one can?

 

[MaLDo]

you can't or no one can't?

Nobody that want to play in same conditions than the rest.

 

[deoee]

Nobody that want to play in same conditions than the rest.

Imo if there is no other way - yes, this is acceptable because controllers on the pc are not the preferred methode of input and you should not be punished for playing with kb+m like you did for the last x years.
If you want Aim Adjust and full controller benefits you should always shoul consider to play on a console.

 

[rodrigolfp]

Nobody that want to play in same conditions than the rest.

same conditions like you want = everyone using the same controller with assist. even on consoles this doesn't always happen, because XIMs. PC is the worst place to get same conditions. go play Overwatch on consoles and prey for no one to use XIMs, then...