And yet most of those players would probably still be much better with the kb/m then most controller players would be without the aim assist. You can't see how someone that would be playing worse than them getting an artificial boost over them would be unfair? It's like the developers said to the lesser skilled mouse players: "Most controller players would be worse than you just because of their choice of input device. So we have given them assists to aiming so that they can now play better than you can by default." There will likely be many more lowly skilled mouse players than there will be controller players in total.
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Destiny 2 PC Aim Assist Needs to be FIXED
- Thread starter Strakt
- Start date
And yet most of those players would probably still be much better with the kb/m then most controller players would be without the aim assist. You can't see how someone that would be playing worse than them getting an artificial boost over them would be unfair? It's like the developers said to the lesser skilled mouse players: "Most controller players would be worse than you just because of their choice of input device. So we have given them assists to aiming so that they can now play better than you can by default." There will likely be many more lowly skilled mouse players than there will be controller players in total.
Aim assist has been a console aiming staple since Goldeneye and was a big part of why Halo felt so good to play. That never stopped the master race from shitting all over controller users anyway. Aim assist should ideally bridge the gap between a clumsy, acceleration-based, thumb-controlled camera and precision aiming without feeling like any kind of lock-on toggle. It should bridge the gap between an experienced controller user and an experienced mouse & keyboard user.
But getting to that point is like trying to balance apples & oranges like Puyo Puyo and Tetris. It can be done, but there are still going to be debates on who gets the short end of the stick.
That said, it all kind of goes out the window once M&K players have aim assist. Though I'd like to think this is largely master racers having sour grapes about a 20 year old gaming convention that they've been shitting on but never encountered in their home turf.
But getting to that point is like trying to balance apples & oranges like Puyo Puyo and Tetris. It can be done, but there are still going to be debates on who gets the short end of the stick.
That said, it all kind of goes out the window once M&K players have aim assist. Though I'd like to think this is largely master racers having sour grapes about a 20 year old gaming convention that they've been shitting on but never encountered in their home turf.
SpiceMelange
Member
No it doesn't because emulating an analog stick is still inferior to using a raw mouse. M/KB have nothing to worry about, they will shit on xims / analog emulators just like they shit on controllers user atm.
Oh, I thought it was like Titanfall where you got all of the advantages of aim assist and none of the disadvantages of analog.
This ignores the inherent disadvantages controllers have compared to kb/m in FPS.
And the actual number of players using each input method doesn't matter. I think we can all agree that pad use on PC is far from niche at this point and it's not going away. Even with AA enabled pad players are still at a huge disadvantage when it comes to movement, (recoil is also greatly reduced for mouse users as of now) so it's not like controllers are suddenly the clear cut "winners" in this.
SpiceMelange
Member
It's the same idea but in Destiny in particular emulating an analog feels pretty shit. You will deal with higher recoil than MK/B users, a much slower maximum turn rate than in other xim-enabled games without even going on about the usual no 1:1 mapping and muddy/input lag mouse look.
Hephaestus
Member
In PVP games isnt it just as important that the optics look fair? regardless if they say the two different imput methods have different strengths and weakness so in the end are sorta equal.
Can the split the groups for pvp controllers and KB? Then there is no appearance of cheating. In PVE I dont think anyone gives a shit what input device you use controller, guitar hero, donkey kong drums.
Hey what do people think of people using the wii motion controller on a PC? apparently its even faster and more precise then a mouse. would destiny recognize the wii controller as just a controller and give it AA as well?
Can the split the groups for pvp controllers and KB? Then there is no appearance of cheating. In PVE I dont think anyone gives a shit what input device you use controller, guitar hero, donkey kong drums.
Hey what do people think of people using the wii motion controller on a PC? apparently its even faster and more precise then a mouse. would destiny recognize the wii controller as just a controller and give it AA as well?
They choose to use a controller, so I'm not seeing how choosing to accept the disadvantages that brings should mean that they automatically get an aiming assist that likely makes their aim significantly more accurate than the lesser skilled players using mice. To be fair the assist should also be an option for mouse users as well. The better mouse players will turn it off unless the aim assist is ridiculously overpowered in which case the assist is problematic to begin with.
Hephaestus
Member
This does seem like the simplest solution, just an option you check when you select pvp
martino
Member
Or those player are beter using controler than you are at using a mouse...(comparatively on each input device skill curve)
You're making it like at same level of skill on each device there is an advantage for one...
I'm ok with it but It's an opinion, not a fact.
You seems to be of those who are only happy if balance means k/m crush controler.
Future PhaZe
Member
Recoil levels for kb and m are stupid as hell. There's nearly no reason to modify your gun because everything is a laser.
If they were better at using the controller than the mouse players were at using the mouse, we wouldn't be discussing giving them an advantage with aim assists. That much should have been obvious? There are certainly players that are worse at aiming with the mouse than the controller players are with using the analog stick. Every game has a bell curve in skills and this one will be no exception. Why wouldn't the entire lower end of the bell curve get an assist and not just the controller players? It seems unfair to only boost the controller players to move them out of the lower end of the bell curve. If you are going to attempt to normalize the skill level of aiming in your game, it should be available to everyone and not just to a select group.
Future PhaZe
Member
The only way you accomplished this is if you made a mouse look like a controller, otherwise the game hard switches between kbam and controller inputs. I even tested this specifically during the beta, if the game detects -any- gamepad input it blocks KBAM inputs. I couldn't even aim with the mouse while moving with gamepad.
It's exactly about a skill gap. The controller lowers the overall top end of your skill ceiling. The auto aim is an attempt to artificially extend that skill ceiling by automating the aiming, but as a consequence it raises the skill floor to a level above the skill floor of unassisted mouse aiming. Thus the worst controller user has by default better aiming than the worst mouse user due to the skill floor being higher than the mouse's floor. The skill floor should be raised for everyone or for no one.
We're going in circles. Please read the thread (if even just the previous page) for why one might choose a controller over kb/m.
As for enabling AA on mouse to "be fair," that's counterproductive to the inclusive balance that devs should be striving for.
Fragmenting your player base is a good way to weaken/kill it. The number of pad players on PC is also ever-increasing, so it's better to figure out how to make the predominant input methods coexist rather than side step the issue.
grfunkulus
Banned
Why? This is 'I want my cake and I want to eat it too' argument. The skill floor for controller users SHOULD be higher than the skill floor for mouse users, just as the skill ceiling for mousers should be higher than the skill ceiling for controller players. AA is an integral part of the controller experience, for better or worse.
Wait what? You are saying that controller users SHOULD always have an advantage over the worst mouse users by default? How is having a higher skill floor an integral part of the controller experience?
texhnolyze
Banned
I want controller support, aim assist, locked 60 fps and downsampling. What's my platform?
Exactly, there are plenty of other options available rather than flat out removing it. I also see the argument that you can't let people match make based on controller preferences (e.g. play in matches with or without aim assist) because it will fragment the population, well if they remove it I won't buy the game, how's that for fragmentation.
Wow...just read about this. Explains why the guns feel like shit on PC.