Do people still believe the xim or xim like software emulating a controller, even with AA enabled, is anywhere near as good as a native mouse and keyboard? It's not. I feel like some people are just making excuses as to why they're getting killed, kinda like how so many people call hacking in other FPS games become a better player is dominating them. The simple solution is to just get better.
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Destiny 2 PC Aim Assist Needs to be FIXED
- Thread starter Strakt
- Start date
RichiRamjag
Member
This is really comical considering your general stance on the matter.
vasametropolis
Member
I play Overwatch with a controller on PC and do fine. I can't really use sniper characters or Pharah but I don't like them anyway.
I effectively have a living room setup as a console replacement.
That said, Destiny needs some form of AA since aiming is a lot more critical as there are no other character types than "you need to aim well"
I'm OK with it being tweaked but it needs something.
I effectively have a living room setup as a console replacement.
That said, Destiny needs some form of AA since aiming is a lot more critical as there are no other character types than "you need to aim well"
I'm OK with it being tweaked but it needs something.
BRocknRolla
Member
It's a ridiculous assertion that people should "play on a console." Maybe they don't own one. Maybe they have a much better PC than they do consoles and want to use it. And all that when we're talking about a sequel to a game that was only on consoles. If people want to play with a controller, just like they did in the previous game, there is no reason they shouldn't be able to. AA is part of the controller experience.
This notion that we need to protect the purity of keyboard and mouse play on PC is nonsense. PC is about having choices, and devs should support a variety of input methods. It's bizarre that 90% of the time in the past, controller players are "punished" by losing standard AA in PC games, but the moment someone suggests the tables might be turned, it's time to burn it down.
rodrigolfp
Haptic Gamepads 4 Life
Glass Shark
Banned
.
That's a really short sighted point of view.
PC is not a mouse+keyboard platform. It's a wide open configurable and adaptable platform. It can be used to work, to play, to navigate internet and to see any kind of content.
PC gaming for me means, best possible version in every possible way with the widest range of control devices available and endless ways of configuration.
Nor in the most remote of my nightmares can I imagine that I use a closed console to play. My oldest son has a PS4Pro and my youngest one has a Wii. So they have their function in my house: to take away my sons of my PC
and I found them in the PC most of the time. If you want to talk about aim assist in Destiny 2 PC, take out consoles of the discussion. I was using a controller in my pc before the first playstation was released.
rodrigolfp
Haptic Gamepads 4 Life
what is the only option to play overwatch with assist if not on console, then?
because being beyond junior = non skilled player. noted...
TheContact
Member
They just need to make it incompatible with kb/m. It's like having an aimbot currently
martino
Member
aimbot are slowing rotation speed and add recoil ? that's new to me.
the situation is not as black and white as some want it to be.
The simplest solution is to tone down, not eliminate, aim assist in PvP. It will reduce the effectiveness of XIM users while still allowing those who use a controller to have their aim assist.
I would suggest trying out the Steam Controller for those who are used to controllers (haven't used a traditional controller for FPS/TPS since Crysis 3). It's the best of both worlds (controller form factor with Kb+M mappings and trackpad mouse aim).
I would suggest trying out the Steam Controller for those who are used to controllers (haven't used a traditional controller for FPS/TPS since Crysis 3). It's the best of both worlds (controller form factor with Kb+M mappings and trackpad mouse aim).
RichiRamjag
Member
you see me crying about this? i just accepted that there is no equality on PC
Yeah. It's basically what you've been doing. You're trying to be clever about it with some of those nonsense hypotheticals, but it's transparent enough. You've outright ridiculed the need for aim assist on controllers and don't seem to get it after it's been explained. Your opinion on the matter is clear. Anyhow, it just seems like you're goofing at this point.
Huge Succeeded
Banned
Here's a question
Among all the people in this thread downplaying the efficacy of XIM
Who among you has
uhhhh
ever used a XIM???
Because, yeah, an emulated controller is no mouse in terms of pure accuracy, but it doesn't need to be, especially not with AA. And XIM can get way closer to native mouselook than I think some people understand.
rodrigolfp
Haptic Gamepads 4 Life
you are right. i still don't get why people knowing they are using a shit input method that "needs" external bullshit help to aim still want to stick with that shit input. go figure...
martino
Member
i have because one of my friend coming from pc to play destiny was a "keyboard extremist"
When he choose to join us he bougth a xim
He was playing on the couch with a self made k/m support ...exteme !
And yes it helps for performance but it don't feel the same....
Do you know the funny thing in his case ? he finally drops using it and prefer playing with ds4 now because he also think it feels beter.
The thing even funier is it's the ds4 light bar (he play mostly in dark on video projector ) that helped the transition !
Where it's sad(imo) is that he won't switch back to pc for 2 (he now perfers console overall)
Soulblighter31
Banned
Yes it is. M/Kb is to a PC what controllers are to consoles. The computer wont start if you unplug your keyboard. They define the PC and they are the tools that dellimitated PC gaming from console gaming, before everything had to be multiplatform. Its why you were playing complex simulation games on PC and arcade ones on consoles back in the 90's. Because one had M/Kb and specific gamedesign options available and the other one did not. Its why entire genres were birthed on PC, created around mouse and keyboard.
What, the gravis? You must not have played many pc games then or genres other than action games. Your insistence as a pc only gamer of using controllers exclusively locked you out of thousands of games, entire genres.
BRocknRolla
Member
There is no option. Rather than find a solution for PC controller players, Blizzard chose to diminish those users. As a result, there are only some heroes which are easily usable with a controller. As I said, they chose the route that many games have chosen, which I'm sure doesn't bother you because it hurts someone else's experience, and not your own. It's only now, where you have some sense that your experience might be affected that you care.
And of course, you've ignored everything else I said, because...
You're not actually engaging with a conversation. Just parroting your narrow-minded opinion over and over. I shouldn't be surprised that someone with such an elitist attitude has nothing interesting to add to the conversation.
Erm, pcs can work fine without a keyboard.
It's not the 90s, you can't say pc is "comfy couch" friendly if you stealth enforce KbM.
Exploratory
Banned
Lol no it's not and please never post again.
rodrigolfp
Haptic Gamepads 4 Life
but there is? play without AA or use KBM?
uh? but i don't care for myself if the will remove AA or not. i care for OP
and elitism? this implies that something is better than other. if you are saying this its because you know there is something better than controller, so why not using it? its elitism liking what is in fact and even in your opinion better? makes no sense to me...
With all the growth PC gaming has seen in recent years the regressive attitudes of some are seriously embarrassing. It wasn't long ago that PC ports were either an afterthought or nonexistent. A big draw for many has been the openness of the platform, yet some advocate for a closed one under the guise of "the good old days."
Like it or not, controller is now a popular input method on PC and it isn't going away. It wasn't due to the agenda of a dev or hardware manufacturer, but rather the evolution of the player base. Ignoring these players simply isn't an option and something like Overwatch can get away with it because it's not a traditional FPS. (only a handful of characters rely on accuracy and even then the game's hit boxes are forgiving)
No one can realistically make the argument that pad is inherently superior to kb/m in FPS, so the former needs an added boost for balance reasons. Implementing console-like AA is the easy answer so I can't blame devs for carrying it over, and realistically in the case of D2 each predominant input method gets its own advantages by adopting it. It's the best we've got until something else comes along and absolutely should be there on all traditional PC shooters for the time being. In turn, it would be nice to see native kb/m support added to consoles, but those are closed platforms that are seemingly becoming less consumer/gamer-friendly all the time... but that's a discussion for another thread.
What I'd personally like to see is a move away from the analog stick altogether and toward something like the Steam controller only... you know, much more refined than what we currently have. I owned a Steam controller and it was a poorly built POS that required way too much tweaking and was still a chore to use. Some can make it work, but then again some can make a Guitar Hero controller work in Dark Souls.
But now I'm just rambling while I kill some time... lol. Point being, cater to the player base that exists in the here and now, don't take a regressive/closed approach, and refine the process as time goes on. Continue to grow the platform for the benefit of all. People will always find something to complain about and will always make excuses (ex. hacks) no matter how trivial they actually are.
Like it or not, controller is now a popular input method on PC and it isn't going away. It wasn't due to the agenda of a dev or hardware manufacturer, but rather the evolution of the player base. Ignoring these players simply isn't an option and something like Overwatch can get away with it because it's not a traditional FPS. (only a handful of characters rely on accuracy and even then the game's hit boxes are forgiving)
No one can realistically make the argument that pad is inherently superior to kb/m in FPS, so the former needs an added boost for balance reasons. Implementing console-like AA is the easy answer so I can't blame devs for carrying it over, and realistically in the case of D2 each predominant input method gets its own advantages by adopting it. It's the best we've got until something else comes along and absolutely should be there on all traditional PC shooters for the time being. In turn, it would be nice to see native kb/m support added to consoles, but those are closed platforms that are seemingly becoming less consumer/gamer-friendly all the time... but that's a discussion for another thread.
What I'd personally like to see is a move away from the analog stick altogether and toward something like the Steam controller only... you know, much more refined than what we currently have. I owned a Steam controller and it was a poorly built POS that required way too much tweaking and was still a chore to use. Some can make it work, but then again some can make a Guitar Hero controller work in Dark Souls.
But now I'm just rambling while I kill some time... lol. Point being, cater to the player base that exists in the here and now, don't take a regressive/closed approach, and refine the process as time goes on. Continue to grow the platform for the benefit of all. People will always find something to complain about and will always make excuses (ex. hacks) no matter how trivial they actually are.
BRocknRolla
Member
We are discussing AA. Obviously you can play Overwatch with a controller without it. The point is, that's a lesser experience for controller users.
No, what elitism means is that someone *thinks* something is better. Which *you* clearly do. You literally called AA "external bullshit" when just about every game that uses a controller has some form of it. It's part of using a controller (Which you called a "shit input").
MKB and Controller are both perfectly valid ways to play, and devs should support both options to the fullest extent possible. If supporting both means there are challenges to overcome, they should find creative solutions to do so without telling one group of players that they will have to have a lesser experience. Removing AA is not a solution; it's the absence of a solution.
If you're going to misrepresent what I'm saying, there's really nowhere to go with this interaction.
Huge Succeeded
Banned
I think that poster is being a bit elitist too, but what you just described isn't elitism. Thinking something is better (on it's own) isn't elitist.
Although that is the definition I've always imagined runs through the minds of those dudes who cry elitism at everything PC
Those people are suffering from a severe case of confirmation bias.
RichiRamjag
Member
Most of them read something elsewhere and are regurgitating it here. We even had the one guy who said he got aim assist on mouse and keyboard by plugging in a controller. It's nuts.
BRocknRolla
Member
If this isn't an example of:
behavior of a person or group who regard themselves as belonging to an elite. (IE, mkb users over controller users)
I'd say we're splitting hairs.
It's a completely valid use of the word.
rodrigolfp
Haptic Gamepads 4 Life
so you are telling me that one input that "doesn't need" assist is not better that one that "needs". that its just my opinion that one is better than another. can you really not see where the nonsense is?
But it's still not as good as native mouse and keyboard on Destiny 2 PC version. People using xim on console is kinda bullshit because it's clearly an upgrade on a controller. Xim on Destiny 2 PC, even with AA, is a downgrade on mouse and keyboard. It's not just about accuracy but also movement which a xim is just way worse at than native mouse and keyboard. The issue is completely overblown.
rodrigolfp
Haptic Gamepads 4 Life
what??? are you implying that people who uses MKB for shooters think they are superior players/human beings that people who uses controller? can be sure if serious...
BRocknRolla
Member
If KBM was in fact "better" than a controller in any holistic sense, then no one would be using a controller for anything. Consoles would use KBM as well as their main input. So seeing as that hasn't happened, I'd say it's obvious KBM is not "better" than a controller.
Is it easier to point and click on something than it is to do that with a stick? Absolutely. Hence why AA was created to improve the accuracy of precise controller input. But we do lots of other things with a controller as well that make it a good, even sometimes easier, input method for other tasks. It's the very reason Bungie rebalanced certain weapons and tasks to improve how they work with mouse input. Different inputs need different balancing to make then ideal to their task. Someone preferring one over the other is a matter of opinion.
So no, one is not better than the other. Insofar as we are using them to play a game, either of them are perfectly good options if set up appropriately. And both should be set up appropriately.
I don't know if you're being sincerely or deliberately obtuse anymore. Do you honestly think I was saying anything about "superior human beings?" We're talking about video games. That's idiotic.
And are there people in this very thread who feel that MKB users are superior players to controller users? Of course.
Let's see some basics.
Something can be better than something else in some aspects but worse for others.
Mouse devices are more precise and fast than controllers. But controllers are more easy to handle, symmetrical, produce smoother experience and have force feedback.
Imagine you want to play a FPS game and suddenly you note that the game has mouse acceleration and smooth movement enabled. And oh wait, there is no option to disable them because this way the experience is the same than controller players. Do you see that this is a problem for people that want real mouse control scheme?
Bungie know that mouse players wants great raw traslation between mouse movement and camera movement. A controller can't not achieve that lighting fast response so they have to add aim assist LIKE EVERY OTHER FUCKING GAME on PC but Overwatch. Destiny 1 and 2 have been designed for controller experience first. So they have big recoil that is compensated by the aim assist. That's why the recoil is way reduced in the mouse control scheme, because that scheme doesn't have aim assist.
At the end, what is important is that different control schemes are balanced and with similar global effectiveness. One is better somewhere and the other one is better elsewhere. Someone using a mouse with controller scheme is not better than someone using mouse scheme because first one will have aim assist but will lose 1:1 control.
OriginalPoe
Banned
Seriously this thread is hilarious. I feel like I'm the only person who took the time to ShadowPlay a clip of trying to recreate the snapping (PvE) and it IS NOT THERE. There's "suggestive" aim assist where if you are ALREADY aiming at the head it seems to sway recoil towards the head using a controller.
This is necessary otherwise controllers would be painful to use.
So silly.
rodrigolfp
Haptic Gamepads 4 Life
we are talking about Destiny 2 and MKB and controller for this game here. I use controller for games like Mario 64 or Dark Souls, looks to me like you are implying i use only MKB for every game. but if you still think one not better than other for Destiny 2, well, whatever makes you happy then...
are you really saying mouse acceleration makes the experience be the same as on pad??? 0.o
anyway, way before Destiny, first person shooting with "free look" was designed to "mouse looking". so you are wrong. Destiny 2 works well with mouse look like almost every PC shooter since always... its controllers that are being adjusted to "mouse look like" aiming in sticks to work since the PS1. but looks like still don't work so well since assists are still "needed".
and how can you prove that someone using mouse assisted not 1:1 control will not win vs some with raw mouse??? 0.o skill still matter for any kind of input, assisted or not, discussed here
paperspace
Member
Last edited:
"Better" is a matter of context. While it's true that kb/m is overall more accurate than pad, (as it should be -- its primary function is productivity) that doesn't mean that it doesn't come with its own set of disadvantages. I don't want to play games whilst sitting at a desk, hunched over my coffee table, or with a plank laying across my lap. I want to kick back on my couch with my feet up on said coffee table. I want to be free to shift my position at will. My priority is to enjoy my leisure time, and for me pad is better than kb/m for that purpose.
I still play fighting games pretty often. They have their roots in the arcade, but over time the input methodology has evolved to cater toward pad players. I prefer to play 2D fighters on stick (specifically on an arcade cab I built) because that's what I grew up with and enjoy. I prefer to play 3D fighters on pad because that's what I grew up with and enjoy. Sure there was some kicking and screaming from arcade vets because pads changed the game, but it's wonderful to have choices. There are inherent advantages and disadvantages when comparing stick and pad but ultimately no one cares or cries about someone "cheating" or whatever because they didn't use the right input device. Hell, Hitboxes have taken off in recent years, some are really good on a standard keyboard, and many build their own sticks with custom button layouts. No one cries foul. (save for a select few circumstances in which people tried to get away with using macros in a tournament setting -- last time I recall was over 2 years ago)
But obviously fighting games and FPS have different execution requirements and, therefore, require a different approach. Still, having viable options only benefits the player base in the long run and resistance to this sort of evolution seems silly in retrospect.
BRocknRolla
Member
Every time you claim I "imply" something, you're just inventing new arguments that I never made. I never even brought up other games.
If Destiny was just a point-and-click adventure game , I would say you have a point. Since it isn't, and you do lots of things besides clicking on things, your argument doesn't make any sense.
But you've clearly made up your mind on this matter and aren't actually engaging with my points, so I think we're done here.
Call of duty, battlefield, doom, Titanfall, Titanfall 2, Prey, Rainbow Six vegas 1 and 2, Farcry 2, 3, 4, etc
There is no added recoil. There is reduced recoil for mouse players.
Habaneroguy
Member
The rich don't need to get richer here. Controller users are already at a disadvantage playing against mouse and keyboard, don't make it harder for them. There are people in here that can convey their thoughts on the matter far better than I. That being said, I'm bewildered as to how "Lol controller sux Lets make it even harder for controller users to play! Mkb4lyfe" is even considered a valid viewpoint. Literally self contradictory.
To be charitable, I don't think people are really saying "controller sucks, make it suck worse!" and then cackling madly while they barbecue a box of baby kittens and eat it in front of starving orphans. I suspect the opposition comes from two premises:
1.) As long as auto-aim exists for controllers, people will find a way to exploit it while using a mouse/keyboard, gaining an unfair advantage over non-cheating players in both control schemes.
2.) Even if they don't, the existence of controllers with auto-aim and mice with precision aim means that players are not on a level playing field. They'll have asymmetric advantages and disadvantages based on the hardware they're using.
I don't agree with point 1, as I've outlined at length; I think there are effective technical solutions that can contain the problem to, in the absolute worst case, be no worse than what already exists on the console platforms. (Which demonstrably hasn't destroyed or dramatically unbalanced PVP on those platforms.)
Point 2 is a harder thing to argue because it's effectively a moral argument, a sense of what should be. The best answer I can give is that we already live in a world where people will have asymmetric gameplay experiences based on the hardware they choose to invest in: a gamer with a top of the line rig playing in 4K at 144Hz is going to have a significant PVP advantage over the poor schlub running at min spec who struggles to get 30Hz at 720p. The PC is not the platform for "everyone gets an identical experience"; if you want that, you should be playing on console.
From my perspective, Destiny was a console game which has been ported to PC. It was designed first and foremost to play with a controller, and the mouse/keyboard support should be integrated with the objective of balancing it against controller play; taking the attitude that controller play should be crippled or eliminated because M/KB are "the real way to play FPS" seems both parochial and incredibly smug, given that PC gamers are the newcomers from the viewpoint of Destiny veterans. I'd prefer to see the controller scheme that works on the other two platforms left alone, and whatever balance changes need to be made to bring control scheme parity be made to the new and platform-unique mouse aiming scheme.
texhnolyze
Banned
Yes, core of the problem here is those people. Kb/m players who're not good enough or just suck and want to step up their game in the easiest way possible, which in the end fuck up the other group of people (pure kb/m & gamepad users) who did nothing wrong at all. In an ideal world, no one would use the exploit for their benefit. But we're not living in such world. People would do anything to be on edge.
But hey, there's an easy solution here. Let's just remove/nerve AA so the game will be a better place for the MAJORITY of players. Screw those MINORITIES, they brought it upon themselves.
Sygma
Member
They're likely keeping the assist as it is for the ex console players swapping over to pc / to keep the original destiny feel if some are enclined to use controller.
I don't know why PvP always is a serious issue for so many people's pride. It makes sense that they dropped it in Overwatch because it was aiming to be a flagship of Blizzard's fps esport involvement... destiny will never, ever, reach that status. It will never be competitive
In Destiny to begin with you need the best gear which creates an imbalance from the get go. Now we could argue forever that people not that greatly mechanically gifted could swap over to the controller in pvp if its too fast for them, in order to have a bit of assist so they can do something instead of ignoring the mode altogether because they know they'll get rolled ... instead of being forced to keep kb + m
You need both modes striving for a MMO to last. Destiny 2 is in a weird spot because if console players are swapping over to pc after having all their progression basically deleted from the first game + not able of just playing like they used to since years on console, you're losing customers / people happy to buy your title more than once
I don't know why PvP always is a serious issue for so many people's pride. It makes sense that they dropped it in Overwatch because it was aiming to be a flagship of Blizzard's fps esport involvement... destiny will never, ever, reach that status. It will never be competitive
In Destiny to begin with you need the best gear which creates an imbalance from the get go. Now we could argue forever that people not that greatly mechanically gifted could swap over to the controller in pvp if its too fast for them, in order to have a bit of assist so they can do something instead of ignoring the mode altogether because they know they'll get rolled ... instead of being forced to keep kb + m
You need both modes striving for a MMO to last. Destiny 2 is in a weird spot because if console players are swapping over to pc after having all their progression basically deleted from the first game + not able of just playing like they used to since years on console, you're losing customers / people happy to buy your title more than once
martino
Member
yeah they think every fps is quake and is about reflexes and aiming...you can build with more than and make that less important when you build a game. And if so and you don't accept it , the problem is not the game.
You can not have aim assist in the mouse control scheme. You can only emulate a controller with your mouse. Is not the same and is being posted every hour.
martino
Member
or you're too old and narrow minded to discover new ways to do things.
shitposting is so easy...
Must surely be that. Aim assist is just the game playing for you. What s the point ?
Tomeru
Member
This is probably the most archaic post I've read on gaf in a long, long time. Please get with the times.
Sygma
Member
They re simply trying to have the Destiny experience shared across platforms. If you plug in a controller on PC the gunplay is essentially changed and becomes console's Destiny.
But seriously if you can aim with a mouse you won't really be destroyed by anyone with a controller. The only dude who has been wrecking hard that I know of is Gamesager. He kept rolling on dudes by using a controller on PC when playing Titanfall 2, on top of having the gauntlet records
Is every controller player a Gamesager's level of threat ? would be safe to say no