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Jim Sterling: Microsoft, You Greedy Wankers! Let's Talk Forza 7...
- Thread starter Saucycarpdog
- Start date
Ive always fought against it. Ive detested it since horse armor and, as of today, have yet to spend money on one single micro transaction. Not even one. Have always been against it and will continue to be. Id like to see developers succeed and including harmless trinkets isnt TOO awful (not for me, though) but when this type of design influences the core game design its bad news. Forza 7 is a lesser game as a result of this. Its very clear that the single player game has been heavily influenced by this model.
Daffy Duck
Member
I'll tell you whats fucking bullshit:
Having to explain to a 9 year old child that loves cars that the mods tabs does not actually mean mods for his cars but some bullshit consumable item sold in a loot box.
Having to explain to a 9 year old child that loves cars that the mods tabs does not actually mean mods for his cars but some bullshit consumable item sold in a loot box.
Psycho_Mantis
Banned
PCars is also a new IP, not a decade old with large investments that come from being first party.
I think its more notable that Forza Motorsport is still stuck in the rut of 1-2 million sales despite MS's push. Heck, even Asseto Corsa has managed to sell around there.
Like puzzle pieces in BF1 loot boxes that have low % to drop from the box and you need all pieces from the same set to unlock unique melee weapon?
ISee
Member
Don't we have that already in overwatch and heroes of the storm? You can earn different amount of shards directly from boxes and from duplicates. With enough of those shards you can 'craft' every skin you want.
In-game currency =/= 1 / 10th of armor set that you can't equip before all 10 parts in inventory
They also have drastically reduced amount of duplicates from loot boxes so you now keep unlocking new stuff consistently. That doesn't change the fact that they bloat loot boxes with throwaway content like player icons and pointless voice lines just so skin drops are far and between.
Daffy Duck
Member
But it isn't though.....
Games like Call of Duty are £85 which includes the season pass, and then there is a very aggressive supply drop system buried at the core of the game.
As above, Battlefield 1 got you covered on that with the puzzle pieces.
We already have 100+ dollar games and some with micros as added bonus.
It's very debatable if you are getting full game when you pay 60 for e.g. latest CoD or BF when Season Pass will splinter community in MP driven game and add so much content. Season Passes in general are publishers way to bump up price of the game for those fans who want full experience.
ISee
Member
No you got it wrong. It's all because PC players don't pay for multiplayer. Those cheap, egoistic, selfish, self proclaimed FPS gods. Now we have to suffer from loot boxes because PC servers have to be paid by someone. The other problem are people with 4k TVs. Making a game 4k and HDR ready costs sooo much money and Microsoft + Sony are irresponsibly pushing their 4k Agenda down everybody's throat. This way they are forcing developers to spend more money on 1000k assets and more pixels. The third, but most insignificant reason is the fact that listed companies will exploit everything to maximise profit and use every excuse possible to justify consumer unfriendly decisions. The big Free to play revolution was followed by the cooperate Premium Pay agenda. What a surprise.
matrix-cat
Member
Oh well, guess we should just take our medicine then, if there's no other alternative. Now where's my wallet, I have to support these poor, starving multi-billion dollar corporations who just can't make a buck any other way.
Chronospherics
Member
I think Jim is going to need to let his reservations against premium games with MT go. They are premium games, but devs do also have the right to sell additional value on top of that, if they so wish. It's simply not going to change.
I also don't think that these games, generally abuse the player. Jim was complaining about Destiny, and Destiny offers a very fair MT system. You can get everything in the game just by playing, fairly easily, but there's some cosmetic bits and bobs that you can get faster if you're willing to pay. I don't see that as being an issue. Destiny is a huge game, and whether you like it or not, it clearly has enough content to justify the £50 premium price tag, even without those additional cosmetics. I haven't played Forza 7, but I assume it's a similar situation.
It isn't going to change. There are players willing to spend heaps of cash on cosmetics and other bits and bobs in their games, and I don't feel that these generally harm my experience, as a regular, premium, but generally MT adverse consumer. Jim's time would be better focused on games that misuse their MT system, predatory practices and things of that kind (such as loot boxes, randomisation of MT purchases, particularly those without disclosure of probability).
I also don't think that these games, generally abuse the player. Jim was complaining about Destiny, and Destiny offers a very fair MT system. You can get everything in the game just by playing, fairly easily, but there's some cosmetic bits and bobs that you can get faster if you're willing to pay. I don't see that as being an issue. Destiny is a huge game, and whether you like it or not, it clearly has enough content to justify the £50 premium price tag, even without those additional cosmetics. I haven't played Forza 7, but I assume it's a similar situation.
It isn't going to change. There are players willing to spend heaps of cash on cosmetics and other bits and bobs in their games, and I don't feel that these generally harm my experience, as a regular, premium, but generally MT adverse consumer. Jim's time would be better focused on games that misuse their MT system, predatory practices and things of that kind (such as loot boxes, randomisation of MT purchases, particularly those without disclosure of probability).
So... basically every current AAA game with MT implementation in form of loot / gambling boxes? Like he has been doing for some time now?
When I try think good MT models in gaming all that pops right into mind are Path of Exile and WarFrame. F2P games both.
Maintenance
Member
ArkhamFantasy
Member
Or you know, reasonably budgeted games and publishers who aren't looking to make every game the only game you play.
NullPointer
Member
And Titanfall 2 in the AAA space. No RNG. No effect on competitive balance. Free titans, maps and modes for all.
Stone Ocean
Member
Because whoever makes these monetization decisions also wants your 60 dollars
Bullshit. The alternative is to stop treating gaming like a fucking poker table and going all in on everything. AAA games are too expensive for these gigantic corporations to make? Even if that's true, too fucking bad? No one told you to only make games with hundred+ million budgets that need hundreds of devs. It's never fucking enough, whether its price gouging special editions, season passes and now we get this shit.
Deal with the bubble you created yourselves or fuck off the industry.
I think the other issue with this is the gambling undertones where you're not even paying for x or y cosmetic but an undisclosed %age chance of getting one. In the "old days" you paid and got your horse armor, but today:
Oh didn't get what you wanted? Fuck you, pay me.
Oops you rolled a duplicate? Fuck you, pay me.
Oh didn't get what you wanted? Fuck you, pay me.
Oops you rolled a duplicate? Fuck you, pay me.
SeeNoWeevil
Member
Isn't that reflected in the review scores though? I'm fairly sure reviewers aren't reviewing 'VIP' type editions. As long as reviewers keep reviewing base games, it all should balance out in the end, surely?
Maintenance
Member
When you have publications saying this
Reviewers just don't care, consumers are fucked.
These things are here to stay, too many people don't mind, or like the situation.
I think the only thing that can be done is some regulation, be that being forced to disclose the odds of these crates rewards, and limiting their usage in some way, either by age gating, or a maximum daily limit of spending.
I think the only thing that can be done is some regulation, be that being forced to disclose the odds of these crates rewards, and limiting their usage in some way, either by age gating, or a maximum daily limit of spending.
SeeNoWeevil
Member
Isn't that more the problem though? Shitty reviews? I guess pandering to people's weakness to gamble is a completely separate issue though worthy of discussion.
matrix-cat
Member
God, that's the fucking shill-est thing I've ever read. I actually had to look up the full review because I couldn't quite believe it. Advocating the thrill of loot boxes like they're a tick in the plus column! I have to go and take a shower.
Maintenance
Member
Shitty reviews are a problem, yes, but that doesn't change that the industry is going towards this fee-to-play (yes, fee not free) path.
Having a shitty review trying to get clicks by creating controversy "just because" is not the same thing as defending what is basically gambling in a video game. You can have shitty reviews while the industry is doing great things, sadly that's not the case here, the industry is going down the toilet and reviews are just saying
dragonfart28
Banned
I hate random loot boxes as much as the next guy, but I've been playing for over 6 hours now and avoided them completely.
It's like the loot boxes Battlefield 1 - you can just ignore them and enjoy the game.
It's like the loot boxes Battlefield 1 - you can just ignore them and enjoy the game.
s_mirage
Member
That's been my opinion for some time now. I'd like to see the sale of games with loot box systems that in any way involve real cash restricted to over 18s, and any such games automatically awarded the highest age ratings. Hopefully that could put enough of a dent in sales, and be damaging enough from a PR perspective, to put publishers off pulling this shit.
Unfortunately, most regulatory bodies seem either disinterested or lacking in awareness of the problem. I don't expect anything to happen unless there's significant blowback from the mainstream press over the normalization and encouragement of gambling in ostensibly non-gambling related video games.
wapplew
Member
He's not wrong tho, the act of gambling itself is thrilling, that why publisher make fancy opening box animations.
It's no different from your Yakuza gambling mini game, loot box is a meta game by itself, reviewer have every right to express his opinion on that part.
slosherbomb
Member
Dynamite Shikoku
Congratulations, you really deserve it!
Cosmetic drivers really is fucking pathetic
The problem with this game and Destiny 2 in particular is that an option available in previous games is now not an option but a chance in a lootbox, what are they going to take out in the next game and put behind lootbox next game? Rewinds? The ability to choose High Definition graphics? At what point does it start to bother you so long as it doesn't affect your ability to hold accelerate and turn corners?
This is how pubs are normalising lootboxes now, chip away feature by feature year after year until they hit a nerve like in NBA 2K18.
I like you.
It's funny because there are tons of games released every year from developers of every size that don't contain microtransactions, but certain huge monolithic corporations just can't figure out how to make profitable games without turning them into wallet grinders.
Is it?
Oh ok I guess incredible games like the Witcher 3 which can come out without transactions but still be at normal price aren't an option then.
They only add micro transactions because idiots pay for them. Can't stand the practice.
Audioboxer
Member
Please give this child your credit card and let them experience and enjoy the excitement of opening these exquisite loot boxes without having to grind*. Some would probably tell you it's child abuse not to let them join in with the excitement. You know as well there will be one legendary car or outfit the youngster would like and it just won't drop. That pesky RNG. It's almost as if buying what you want outright from an in-game store would work better...
*once space bux go live
TheThreadsThatBindUs
Member
This is false conclusion based on a very disturbing narrative among gamers that publishers "need" to introduced micro-transactions because developer budgets have increased.
The flaw in this logic is that publishers overall have compensated for increased development budgets of individual projects by releasing less games, as well as chasing a more AAA model by pushing game design and marketing to see games being bigger successes now than ever before.
Just look at the number of 10-20+m selling games released this gen. Now compare that to the previous gen. and the one before that... Conclusion: the fewer games being released are now bigger and bigger hits.
Even in spite of all this, publishers have never been struggling to merely cover the costs of games development. They've been making millions in profits, with the biggest publishers now making more money than ever before.
It's not about covering cost, but rather increasing profits. Further monetization schemes like DLC, season passes, special additions, online passes, micro-transactions and now lootboxes are purely about extracting as much money out of gamers as is possible for the purposes of fueling profit growth to please shareholders.
If it was purely about covering costs then we would expect to see these monetization measure employed more by smaller more independent developers, when in fact the ones going all in with this BS are the biggest publishers who traditionally have always been making tens of millions of dollars each year in profit.
BrassDragon
Member
The thing that troubles me about this particular iteration of the microtransaction plague is that they won't be introducing the real money purchases (tokens?) until later, after the initial launch cycle.
Is this a tactic to avoid in-game purchases affecting reviews and early hype/pre-launch news cycles?
The Shadow of War strategy of announcing early and letting us 'get used to it' obviously backfired so maybe this is the new trend - buy the game at a premium, then get a whole new real money economy patched in later. It's really hard to give publishers (and developers who happily defend these business practices in public) the benefit of the doubt when they pull things like this.
Is this a tactic to avoid in-game purchases affecting reviews and early hype/pre-launch news cycles?
The Shadow of War strategy of announcing early and letting us 'get used to it' obviously backfired so maybe this is the new trend - buy the game at a premium, then get a whole new real money economy patched in later. It's really hard to give publishers (and developers who happily defend these business practices in public) the benefit of the doubt when they pull things like this.
Nah, they wouldn't do that would they.
PvZ: Garden Warfare did this years ago.
https://www.reddit.com/r/PvZGardenW...locking_legendary_characters_15k_or_35k_pack/
Just wish more games followed Driveclubs policy on DLC. I usually ignore these micro-transactions, but recently its getting really hard. With the shit thats going on with Shadow of War and now this, I've started to actually boycott these games. Unless they do a u-turn on their policies, I just cannot support them financially anymore. This saddens me too as I wanted to check out SoW...
Zombie James
Banned
LordRaptor
Member
You are very misinformed.
1) Plenty of PC players pay for online multiplayer, and they do so by paying the developers who have infrastructure costs directly - see: literally every subscription MMO on the planet.
2) Developers don't see jack shit of the console online tithe. All it does is act a barrier to entry to people buying their multiplayer games in the first place and pad the platform owners pockets so they can take that cash and use it to fund cockblocking the other platform owner with exclusivity deals.
IISANDERII
Member
The final straw that made me pretty much quit going to the movie theatre was having to sit through multiple commercials before the movie(can't remember if they're before or after trailers/teasers).
IISANDERII
Member
And/or review copies differ from retail, coming loaded with extra credits and more things unlocked.
This industry has turned ugly.
BrassDragon
Member
That's just the visual tweak - I'm very concerned about the gambling algorithm under the hood being secretly tweaked to give reviewers and influencers a better, less time-consuming and more rewarding experience.
I mean, who would know if they did this?