Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
Indeed...
Xbox Scarlett could be a generation forward respect the Playstation 5.
- Thread starter IbizaPocholo
- Start date
MeatSafeMurderer
Member
My point is that shaders, by your own admission, are hardware accelerated. Shaders run on compute units. Therefore RT "running on compute units" is shader based RT. Shader RT is RT being performed in shaders...shaders which are hardware accelerated...something which you tried to beat around the bush on for some reason. Why does it matter? Marketing spin. They can honestly paint shader based RT as hardware accelerated and people won't bat an eyelid, not realizing that it's slower than a RT core or the AMD equivalent.
Remember, just because one method is slower than another doesn't mean it's not hardware accelerated.
SpinningBirdKick
Banned
Seems pretty straight forward to me.
AMD is coordinating with partners before they release anything about Navi.
Sony have their own hand rolled RT implementation so went ahead and announced it in Wired.
AMD were quiet about Navi RT until after the MS reveal at E3.
So it looks like MS is cherry picking AMD RT features from RDNA 2.0 or whatever it's called these days.
Sony has no need to wait for a directX compatible RT implementation from AMD. MS on the other hand...
MS haven't a clue what's in the Sony RT implementation.
AMD is coordinating with partners before they release anything about Navi.
Sony have their own hand rolled RT implementation so went ahead and announced it in Wired.
AMD were quiet about Navi RT until after the MS reveal at E3.
So it looks like MS is cherry picking AMD RT features from RDNA 2.0 or whatever it's called these days.
Sony has no need to wait for a directX compatible RT implementation from AMD. MS on the other hand...
MS haven't a clue what's in the Sony RT implementation.
ethomaz
Banned
I'm still not understanding your point...
When I said hardware accelerated Ray-tracing I meant that the GPU in these consoles will have specific silicon units to run Ray-tracing faster than actually running on the shader/compute units.
That is definition of hardware accelerated since ever.
"In computing, hardware accelerationis the use of computer hardwarespecially made to perform some functions more efficiently than is possible in software running on a general-purpose CPU."
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MeatSafeMurderer
Member
The point is that they can easily spin it. They can use the term "hardware accelerated" or "hardware support" (which is more honest) whilst basically lying to your face (but not technically). That's half of what marketing is. Last I checked a GPU is not a "general-purpose CPU". I'm also fairly certain shader based RT would run faster on a GPU than a CPU, seeing as how that's kind of the point of GPUs. Actually I'm not fairly certain, I know for a fact that's the case.
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ethomaz
Banned
I finally understood your point.
Marketing or not... they will have a hardware specific unit to run ray-tracing (of course it will be limited just like RT cores on RTX)... how much limited I don't know but probably they will have different limitation because each implementation is customized by Sony and MS to reach what they think is better for them.
I don't expect neither hardware ray-reading solution to be similar to what AMD will implement in future RDNA revision.
DynamiteCop!
Banned
As my buddy pointed out they're dropping hints all over the place and no one even picked up on it. What wasn't clear at the time clear is very clear now.
The logo for Scarlett is ray traced for crying out loud.
Xbox new logo on the Beta PC app with a drop shadow.
The logo for Scarlett is ray traced for crying out loud.
Xbox new logo on the Beta PC app with a drop shadow.
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
As my buddy pointed out they're dropping hints all over the place and no one even picked up on it. What wasn't clear at the time clear is very clear now.
The logo for Scarlett is ray traced for crying out loud.
Xbox new logo on the Beta PC app with a drop shadow.
Nobody is saying that Scarlett will not have RT... you are again fighting against windmills
.Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
.
DynamiteCop!
Banned
What I'm saying is Sony won't, not beyond shaders and audio. They talked about RT and audio for christ sakes, that was their selling point, anyone who had something hardware accelerated in their system would have made it known.Nobody is saying that Scarlett will not have RT... you are again fighting against windmills
That whole trailer was a stab at Sony, they know they don't have it, they mentioned it on purpose, they ray traced their logo on purpose, it's backhanded.
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Bingo. It's the same as this gen, where we have true native 4K (see RDR2) X1 compared to fake checkerboard 4K from PS4.
And yes, the difference is HUGE between those two, if you have a huge 4K tv of course.
This time we have true ray tracing (Xbox) and fake or ray tracing lite (PS5)
Geki-D
Banned
I'll grant you that Sony didn't precise hardware accelerated but "raytraced logo is a 4D chess move" is some silly-ass postulating. Come on, man.
ZywyPL
Banned
Well, there was some info back in the day saying that next Xbox will indeed use a mix of Navi and next gen architectures. And with the Ryzen 3 and Navi reveal at E3, AMD confirmed that Navi is not a completely new arch, but a mix of GCN and RDNA, where the GCN is the base, in order to be compliant with all the current dev tools, while the CUs are organised differently (RDNA) in order to speed up gaming-related computations and lower the latencies as much as possible (some media claim this solution boosts up the performance even TWICE(!) compared to previous AMD GPUs), while the GPUs after Navi will be pure RDNA-based. And I think this is the direction next Xbox took - with as little GCN remains as possible, just for the compatibility sake, while almost entire GPU architecture being pure RDNA-based, to boost the performance even further than Navi already does, and to provide new rendering solution like RT for example.
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
Uh uh,., and then went on to say that they are only sure it will be their most powerful Xbox not the most powerful console... oh my, the Freudian slip... the guilt... surely that must mean it is barely more powerful than Xbox One X!!!
This is how that sounds, "reaching" is a good word to summarise it. As an engineer, Cerny was just highlighting how accelerated RT (else just use async compute on GCN) can serve more than a single purpose, but it is a sound engineering investment as that can be reused in many more places than you would think (actually it already is...).
You are deciding to take whatever is said about PS5 under the worst possible light and whatever is whispered about Xbox under the best possible one...you are free to do so of course, but do not expect everyone to just blindly agree...
Ar¢tos
Member
I would LOVE an ARPG Don Quixote game.Nobody is saying that Scarlett will not have RT... you are again fighting against windmills
nowhat
Member
Oh hell, it could be an online PVE game too. Just make it so that the windmill never dies no matter how much people bash it.
...I'd actually play that.
Snake29
Banned
The article says "GPU supports ray tracing". If it was really just software, then it wasn't even a big deal to announce since every GPU has support for RT via software. PS5 will have hardware RT...nothing else.
I have the feeling that only Xfans are worry about this whole RT thing, because they want something to hold on, like "YOU SEE, XBOX IS MORE POWERFUL, SONY DOESN'T EVEN HAVE REAL RT, JUST FAKE RT". RT is the new "True 4K" meme.
RT is one of the big features on this slide. Software RT was always available for every console or pc....
IbizaPocholo
This is the same shit and nothing different, just others words. Both are co-engineerd, custom solutions. It's nothing different from previous Sony consoles. Look at the PS4 Pro, it has a more advanced feature set then the One X GPU.
Look at the article:
Not only audio....
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Self_Destructive
Member
Some people here really don't seem to understand what the "hardware accelerated" part of the RT equation is. When people talk about RT being hardware accelerated, they're referring to special silicon dedicated to accelerating specific aspects of the RT pipeline.. at this point referring to incoherent ray traversal and bounding volume hierarchy.
Can you run those same calculations on the CUs using shaders... yes... however since there's no silicon in the hardware dedicated to accelerating those specific (important) aspects.. it's not what people would call "hardware accelerated".
Can you run those same calculations on the CUs using shaders... yes... however since there's no silicon in the hardware dedicated to accelerating those specific (important) aspects.. it's not what people would call "hardware accelerated".
thelastword
Banned
I saw that article since early yesterday, when I noticed it was a pipe piece, I didn't even finish reading...... I'm surprised it wasn't posted much earlier by Xbox fans.....
Yet, the article was clearly written on some vague notion of what rdna means, it has also been confirmed by a dev that Sony's is pushing hardware accelerated raytracing...... So the article is squarely based on a "make a wish foundation".......
Self_Destructive
Member
You're right... it's not something you'd announce... it's something that you'd mention.. in passing. Kind of like what Sony did. Because you wouldn't want people thinking that your competitor has something over you THIS far in advance.
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Self_Destructive
Member
No, actually. That same developer confirmed that he doesn't actually know what Sony's solution is and just assumed it would be "hardware based". Unless you can point to something proving otherwise?
My reading of the Wired article is that Sony will have RT hardware, with that said I'm not really a RT lover at this point. I expect the two solutions to be similar in design and overall power and expect the sales trends to continue regardless of any small differences in hardware.
HeresJohnny
Member
I like Digital Foundry but watching their videos hasn't ever been exactly heart racing. They look for minutiae that most people have trouble noting even when it's pointed out to them.
I think what's going to be most interesting is the resolution disaster that's coming. Right now, I think I read 4K sets make up around 30 percent of the market. I'm assuming 1080p makes up the rest, but that's probably not even true. I'm sure there are still 720 sets out there too. And the display industry is already farting out 8k ads, meaning that shit is coming before too long, which is fucking ridiculous. Why would I buy a 4K set when I know it's gonns be obsolete in a few years? Our house still has all 1080p sets and one 5k monitor and I've never felt compelled to buy another set yet, especially after hearing all the egghead shit about them.
I think the systems will be fine, but Digital Foundry is going to have a lot of fun comparing LOTS of different resolutions.
Evilms
Banned
Michal Valient previously explained the basics in Guerrilla's post-mortem of the PlayStation Meeting demo, but was on-hand to go into more depth during our visit to the studio.
"What we do on-screen for every pixel we run a proper ray-tracing - or ray-marching - step. We find a reflection vector, we look at the surface roughness and if you have a very rough surface, that means that your reflection is very fuzzy in that case," he explains.
The technology of Killzone Shadow Fall
It was an irresistible opportunity. Just before the launch of Killzone Shadow Fall, Guerrilla Games offered us the chan…
www.eurogamer.net
It was in 2013, ray tracing software solution is not new.
Sweet n sour
Geki-D
Banned
Michal Valient previously explained the basics in Guerrilla's post-mortem of the PlayStation Meeting demo, but was on-hand to go into more depth during our visit to the studio.
"What we do on-screen for every pixel we run a proper ray-tracing - or ray-marching - step. We find a reflection vector, we look at the surface roughness and if you have a very rough surface, that means that your reflection is very fuzzy in that case," he explains.
The technology of Killzone Shadow Fall
It was an irresistible opportunity. Just before the launch of Killzone Shadow Fall, Guerrilla Games offered us the chan…
It was in 2013, ray tracing software solution is not new.
This is something I think people aren't taking into account; Sony's first party devs are tech wizards, they're known for doing more with less. MS on the other hand besides the Forza guys, they got the most powerful system on the market right now with the X, what exactly have they done with all that power?
Honestly, if the X2 is more powerful than the PS5 I'm assuming it'll be slight and the trade-off would most likely be that a less powerful PS5 comes out first and is cheaper. I'd also expect Sony's devs to still release better looking games than nearly any MS studio because that's what history shows us.
HeresJohnny
Member
I'm going to laugh if either of these companies tries to sell $500 and $600 hardware. It'll be fun watching them burn.
Who dominates a generation has really never been about power, it's been about games.
They will sell minified cheaper current gen consoles and expensive next gen versions. You can bet on $500. MS charged that for a midgen upgrade.
HeresJohnny
Member
Yeah and that's what gets me... they know, firsthand, that the market will not support that price. You have a base of hardcore players that will and beyond that, it withers.
Geki-D
Banned
Yeah, power is good as a fanboy talking point, for dick waving at conferences. But it's never decided a console gen and we already know that PS5 & XB2 will, if anything, be close because they're both using similar confirmed hardware. To really throw the gen the difference is going to have to be way more than something you can only notice in a DF video when you ram your eyes into the screen to see it. If it was a deciding factor the XB1X would have turned the tide this gen, yet to my understanding it's barely affected MS' sales and PS4 powers on totally unstoppable.
It'll come down to the games and that's going to be an uphill battle for MS compared to Sony's army of well established first party exclusives. That's why being the most powerful is so important to MS, they want at least that to brag about.
Sony can place less emphasis on hardware now they've created a very strong first party line up. They're following Nintendo's direction in some regards.
MS have to differentiate somehow and it could be better hardware performance.
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JustP_Gaming
Banned
I don't think so mate.
Kazza
Member
To be honest, the only part of their content I consistently watch is their DF Retro series and the occasional Switch miracle port. The Xbox/PS4 stuff can be a little dull (not their fault, the hardware is just too similar and it's hard to make the usual 900p/1080p/checkerboard 4k/true 4k breakdown between the consoles sound interesting). I sometimes wonder what DF would have been like circa 1994 (probably distributed via VHS on the front of a magazine
). Imagine them comparing games between all the available hardware at the time: the 3DO, Jaguar, Megadrive, SNES, PS1, Mega CD, 32X, Game Gear, Game Boy, Saturn...it would have been amazing! I'm afraid next gen could be even more boring when it comes to comparing systems. Hopefully there will be enough new tech and creativity within the games themselves to make things interesting. I hope it'snot just current-gen game design, but at 4K/8K.Regarding resolution, wasn't HD TV adoption in a similar situation at the dawn of the PS3/360 gen? I really hope they stick to 4K. Isn't 8K 4 times the resolution of 4K? Hopefully that we put them off trying to market 8K...hopefully.
Ar¢tos
Member
Sticky White Stuff
They don't care. They are getting their money from GaaS. They don't care if you're playing on this gen or the next, they charge the same for their subscriptions. They won't support next gen only games much if at all. Look at the Xbox One X support. There is not much first party support that showcase it even. The people buying the more expensive machine at a profit to the manufacturer will get scaled graphics upgrades. If that is a lot of people or not will not matter to them.
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Assuming you have to get to a number, I mean at this point, we're basically down to resolution/framerate between PS4/PS5, in 3-5 years more devs can take advantage of the differences. Having to sell hardware to me day 1 is less important. I'm expecting the PS4 cycle to last a total 10-12 years (meaning PS4 games will be released even 3-5 years now), the next cycle is going to be super long probably 12-15 years.
I think everyone should dampen their expectations over the next few years, with Moore's Law and the ability (or lack of) devs being to dedicate additional resources in games = wall in graphics.
Don't forget to throw in a fan boy into the mix.
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
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I find discussions surrounding Raytracing rather confusing. These days you have a bunch of game use it for screen-space calculations, often with - imho - absolutely minimal impact, that is just barely visible in a direct picture vs picture comparison.
Yea sure, that's raytracing by definition, but frankly speaking, that's marketing speech to me.
Quake II RTX, now that is proper Raytracing. Now given the simplicity of geometry/everything else in this game, and the fact it's just barely runnable on the very latest, crazy expensive high end hardware - and we don't have any purchasable hardware at all that could actually render modern games with that kind of raytracing - I remain highly skeptical we'll see any form of proper holistic RT in coming console gen.
Will it be enough for MS to stick that "look at me, Raytracing! So cool!" logo on the retail box? Sure. Will it be enough so you can actually see any differences without a side by side comparison? I doubt it
Yea sure, that's raytracing by definition, but frankly speaking, that's marketing speech to me.
Quake II RTX, now that is proper Raytracing. Now given the simplicity of geometry/everything else in this game, and the fact it's just barely runnable on the very latest, crazy expensive high end hardware - and we don't have any purchasable hardware at all that could actually render modern games with that kind of raytracing - I remain highly skeptical we'll see any form of proper holistic RT in coming console gen.
Will it be enough for MS to stick that "look at me, Raytracing! So cool!" logo on the retail box? Sure. Will it be enough so you can actually see any differences without a side by side comparison? I doubt it
Bani
Member
Nop
ResilientBanana
Member
This is interesting, so basically the next-gen feature might be hardware based Ray-tracing vs Shader based Ray-tracing? That would make a big difference in the way games look. Even if Xbox has a lower TFlop count, this type of lighting makes a world of difference and would explain why the PS5 would need more TFlops if they're using shader based RT. But raw TFlop count would only mean so much if Microsoft doesn't need to waste GPU resources on RT.
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