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[Three]

But they're not getting their money from GaaS. They have a few million customers, many of which are paying a dollar, some of which are paying $5 and the rest that are paying $9, which means (assuming everyone bought equally which I doubt) that they are averaging $5 a customer. Let's say they have a hundred games up on the service. They bring in $10,000,000 a month, divide that by a hundred, you're left with a hundred grand to each company. That leaves no scratch for Microsoft's pocket, upkeep and maintenance, infrastructure and hardware, staff, and so on. Further, they have to bake in all the lost profit to both the developers and Microsoft themselves when games appear on the service and physical sales at $60 are lost as a result.

They need hardware, because hardware sold means that customer is going to buy software. GaaS customers can jump in and out of the pool with no investment on their part at all; the relationship is non-existent. You can sign up for a month, play the shit out of the new game that just came out and then cancel. In that case, Microsoft is -$55 compared to the conventional model, and I expect this is what most people will do.

It's more change just for the sake of change, because they got their asses reamed out for making bad decisions and launching with too high a pricetag (twice) this generation. Instead of introspection about what they could've have done differently or better, they've concluded the industry is broken, despite proof that it clearly isn't.

I hear you, I want the conventional model too but that's not where they are headed it seems.

They get xbox live money per customer too, not just game pass. After that xCloud. The reason that this model was adopted is because their games struggled to sell enough even on the Xbox one install base. The numbers didn't add up for the games they were cancelling. Their games being next gen only would be a bad investment for them. Their game plan changed and it is to create a subscription service, focus mostly on online games, get xbox live money, offer the games on an additional subscription so that risk of the online game failing on player numbers is mitigated. Make it hard to unsubscribe because you would be too lazy (especially as they prevent you from doing it on the console) and create a steady stream of first party games that might not be that great but you will be curious enough about to remain subscribed for $120 a year.
MS xbox has increased their revenue despite the fact that actual console sales dropped 33%, the worst out of all of them. There are hardly any xbox One X users out there, likely lower than 4 million but it's not important to their subs, it brings in the positive PR for them and they likely made a small profit selling it at $500. They will try and market next gen as 'premium' or 'Elite' and charge a pretty penny I'd imagine.

 

[DESTROYA]

Where did it get me? It got me in a position where I'd worry about how much worse games would look on the XB1 compared to the PS4.

My point was you got the power with the Xone and cross platform games look and play great but exclusive software just can't compare to the PS4.

 

[yurinka]

So correct me if I am wrong.

Current Navi does not do Hardware Accelerated Raytracing. So because of this Microsoft and AMD co engineered a custom chip that does Hardware Accelerated Raytracing?

PS5 and Sony also co engineered a custom Navi RDNA chip that supports raytracing. But seems they have 2 raytracing support versions, the one that accelerates raytracing by hardware and another that don't.

Seems MS will have the accelerated by hardware version and we don't know which version will use Sony since we know it will feature raytracing but we don't know if it will be accelerated by hardware or not because the Wired article wasn't very clear, and the journalist back then didn't know that AMD was going to have hardware accelerated and non-hardware accelerated version even if they mention that PS5 hardware was going to feature ray-traycing.

Considering all the other MS specs seem to be the same ones Sony announced before for PS5 (Zen 2, custom Navi with raytracing, SSD on steroids, they even going to add their version of PS Now and Remote Play to Scarlett/xCloud) and considering that they may be aiming for a similar price point ($399-$499), I bet Sony and MS will have the same or very similar options, and that both consoles will be pretty similar in terms of performance and architecture.

If MS really would aim for something way more powerful then the price of the console would double or more, which would mean they would get a market share even way smaller than the one they have in the current gen and it's something they don't want. They aim to be 1st in sales for next gen so they must have an affordable price (in the past $599 was perceived as too expensive for PS3 and affected its sales during its first years).

 

[Hoya Destroyer]

My point was you got the power with the Xone and cross platform games look and play great but exclusive software just can't compare to the PS4.

Thats true, but most of the games I care/cared about are multi platform anyway.
If MS can make me feel confident in their hardware next gen, thats one less thing to worry about at least.

 

[ethomaz]

So correct me if I am wrong.

Current Navi does not do Hardware Accelerated Raytracing. So because of this Microsoft and AMD co engineered a custom chip that does Hardware Accelerated Raytracing?

Every console APU is a semi-custom silicon where the client choose the parts they wants plus what customization they needs.

That is the case of the AMD semi-custom business. XB1, PS4, Pro, X, etc are all client customized chip too.

MS and Sony are using Zen2 and Navi as base of their APU adding their own customizations like RT hardware units.

 

[joe_zazen]

I wonder if AMD has internal teams keeping secrets from one another?

Yes, because amd can afford two have double redundant staff doing the same thing. They work in isolation biodomes for four years at a time. Also, dev kits do not exist.

Sony and Microsoft have no clue what the other is doing and specs wont be final until 3 weeks before launch. I have it on good authority that microsoft is going with intel and nvidia. This whole amd thing is a giant ruse to bamboozle Sony into making a weak console.

 

[Xenon]

at Sony and MS for chumming the water with this teaser info. It's going to be a fun year.

 

[RokkanStoned]

Misterxmedia affiliated sources LOOL.

Dat second GPU is ready to get activated just about now displaying XBox One's chad status and demolish Sony out of the console race with their weak virgin PS4.
2>1. Checkmate.
Misterxmedia and the boys at Microsoft:

 

[joe_zazen]

It's not really bait, it's plausible.

Tech takes a long time to develop. In mobile, from final tape out to store shelves is a minimum of 18 months (12 if you are apple and do everything in house), and mobile is the most cut throat, competitive area of computing.

APUs are final now if they are releasing in nov 2020 and there is no way AMD is going to release sandbagged rx gpus and gimped ps5 just so xbox can 'put on over' on everybody. If amd had next-next gen tech ready, that is what they would be selling to everyone everywhere.

 

[yurinka]

Tech takes a long time to develop. In mobile, from final tape out to store shelves is a minimum of 18 months (12 if you are apple and do everything in house), and mobile is the most cut throat, competitive area of computing.

APUs are final now if they are releasing in nov 2020 and there is no way AMD is going to release sandbagged rx gpus and gimped ps5 just so xbox can 'put on over' on everybody. If amd had next-next gen tech ready, that is what they would be selling to everyone everywhere.

Yup, it would be stupid because AMD wants to make money and if they want to sell some nice tech they wont hide it to their biggest costumer on that market: Sony.

 

[LostDonkey]

I think so buddy .

NOT SO SURE PAL!!!

 

[KlickKlack]

Its all becoming clear now.

AMD and Microsoft actually came together and co engineered a custom chip. I can tell Lisa Sue from AMD is way more excited for Scarlett then she is for PS5 by the way she talks about them.

your can clearly read about sony:

".. next gen radeon architecture"
- means clearly next arch after vega = navi

about MS:
"... next gen RDNA architecture"
- next gen RDNA is Navi+

 

[KlickKlack]

Yup, it would be stupid because AMD wants to make money and if they want to sell some nice tech they wont hide it to their biggest costumer on that market: Sony.

but what when Sony decided to go with smaller budget for the apu then MS?

 

[Evilms]

PS5/Scarlett

 

[JareBear: Remastered]

One thread tells me the PS5 is more powerful.

Another thread tells me Next Box is more powerful.

 

[DynamiteCop!]

One thread tells me the PS5 is more powerful.

Another thread tells me Next Box is more powerful.

They don't cancel each other out, one may have a higher compute ceiling while being technologically inferior to the other which can do things the other can't.

 

[Panajev2001a]

NOT SO SURE PAL!!!

Quite sure, old chum

 

[Lukin1978]

It's gonna be a long wait until the final specs are known plenty of rumors and bullshit until then.

 

[Vasto]

Every console APU is a semi-custom silicon where the client choose the parts they wants plus what customization they needs.

That is the case of the AMD semi-custom business. XB1, PS4, Pro, X, etc are all client customized chip too.

MS and Sony are using Zen2 and Navi as base of their APU adding their own customizations like RT hardware units.

Long story short,

Sony paid AMD to make a chip.

Microsoft engineers and AMD engineers came together and made a chip.

 

[Panajev2001a]

your can clearly read about sony:

".. next gen radeon architecture"
- means clearly next arch after vega = navi

about MS:
"... next gen RDNA architecture"
- next gen RDNA is Navi+

... clearly as "you can read pretty much anything into it if you believe it strong enough" ?

Next generation RDNA is likely to be the basis of both GPU's: current Navi is a summer 2019 mid end desktop GPU.

 

[TGO]

Anyone got any piriton?

 

[CJY]

Nvidia really has the whole industry in the grinder.

I remember before RTX, everybody said Real-time RT was impossible. Then it comes out, but supported applications are highly limited and the utility is highly suspect.

Rtx2080ti, a $1k+ card is not even that good at RT and we want it in consoles. I just find it a little sad the industry is chasing this red herring right now, because I feel RT is still not ready for prime-time yet.

 

[TGO]

One thread tells me the PS5 is more powerful.

Another thread tells me Next Box is next next gen.

Fixed

 

[LittleBusters]

Long story short,

Sony paid AMD to make a chip.

Microsoft engineers and AMD engineers came together and made a chip.

Also Microsoft engineers made a vapor chamber in the X, and who knows what else they'll come up with!

 

[yurinka]

but what when Sony decided to go with smaller budget for the apu then MS?

Who said Sony decided to go with a smaller budget? Sony and MS didn't mention their budgets.

And if we look it from a logical standpoint, PS is the main Sony business, while Xbox is a small part from MS who seems to be more interested to keep moving their gaming business to PC with every new thing they announce.

 

[DynamiteCop!]

Also Microsoft engineers made a vapor chamber in the X, and who knows what else they'll come up with!

They also invented the power management tech in the system (Hovus method), did custom work to the GPU and CPU devoid of AMD etc.

The PlayStation 4 Pro is just proprietary AMD and was built with a memory bottleneck, the One X has multiple facets that are customized by Microsoft directly. With both of their most recent outings MIcrosoft's current hardware team appears more competent than Sony's.

 

[LostDonkey]

The X is extremely impressive from a design standpoint. Its hard to believe the same company birthed the OG One.

 

[DynamiteCop!]

The X is extremely impressive from a design standpoint. Its hard to believe the same company birthed the OG One.

Same company but it appears to be a different engineer team.

 

[LostDonkey]

I think Sony calmed down after the exotic ps3 but a part of me hopes there is some of that visionary design in the 5. Mind you saying that they did achieve some incredible things with the "off the shelf" base ps4. Its exciting times for all and I dont think any camp will be disappointed.

Ill get the PS5 but im still torn on wether to upgrade my pc to ray tracing capable or just get whatever Xbox comes.

 

[Snake29]

They also invented the power management tech in the system (Hovus method), did custom work to the GPU and CPU devoid of AMD etc.

The PlayStation 4 Pro is just proprietary AMD and was built with a memory bottleneck, the One X has multiple facets that are customized by Microsoft directly. With both of their most recent outings MIcrosoft's current hardware team appears more competent than Sony's.

The Pro GPU is also co-engineered and custom made with features beyond Polaris. You really act like a dumb fanboy around here. People reading to much in the words we've had from Lisa,

And how do you know they are more competent?

 

[DynamiteCop!]

The Pro GPU is also co-engineered and custom made with features beyond Polaris. You really act like a dumb fanboy around here. People reading to much in the words we've had from Lisa,

And how do you know they are more competent?

The Pro GPU isn't 'custom', it has Vega RPM which is again AMD proprietary. You're confusing a feature set being added with customization of the hardware and architecture beyond what AMD offers. The X GPU has Vega DCC and no one would dare say that's part of the customization Microsoft did to their GPU.

 

[alabtrosMyster]

The main pissing contest when both consoles come out will be who ran them at higher boost clocks as that will determine who hast the "fastest" console.

While I mostly agree with your first paragraph, I think you are over simplifying potential differences.

- GPU cores
- Caches and their size (how much each team reduced them)
- Memory latency and bandwidth
- Cerny secret sauces (boosted ROPs and render queues for the GPU) - whoever are the system architects on the xbox side
- They may have more or less Operating system overhead (we know the PS5 has, like the ps4, a dedicated ARM CPU + RAM bank for background OS tasks, no hypervisor, etc.) which means that the main CPU and GPU are completely dedicated to games
- Both will feature some chips dedicated to accelerate specialized functions via hardware, be it some version of raytracing, or other less glamorous functions

As for the article, I think MS may have used "hardware accelerated ray tracing" in a deceptive way, like they called their NvME drive a RAM "extension", as we have seen in the Cry Engine demo we could still have pretty decent shader based ray tracing.

 

[Snake29]

The Pro GPU isn't 'custom', it has Vega RPM which is again AMD proprietary. You're confusing a feature set being added with customization of the hardware and architecture beyond what AMD offers. The X GPU has Vega DCC and no one would dare say that's part of the customization Microsoft did to their GPU.

Pro GPU is custom. All console CPU/GPU's are custom made and co-engineered by teams from both companies. They work together to bring the features Sony request and Sony engineers need to optimize the hardware together with the tools they develop for it.

Behind The PS4 Pro’s Architecture Part I – Efficiency Gains, Delta Color Compression And More

gamingbolt.com

Pro has DCC...

 

[DynamiteCop!]

Pro GPU is custom. All console CPU/GPU's are custom made and co-engineered by teams from both companies. They work together to bring the features Sony request and Sony engineers need to optimize the hardware together with the tools they develop for it.

Behind The PS4 Pro’s Architecture Part I – Efficiency Gains, Delta Color Compression And More

gamingbolt.com

Pro has DCC...

Vega DCC is again a feature set, not a customization.

These SoC's are custom from the ground up, AMD does not make these for anyone else so in that right they're all custom. However there's a difference between that and customization done to AMD's proprietary tech which you're not grasping.

Nothing about the Pro in both CPU and GPU is customized, it's AMD proprietary. Sony didn't actually make architectural improvements on top of their proprietary, Microsoft did.

 

[CrustyBritches]

I think the main take away from PS4 Pro and Xbox One X should be the method of achieving compatibility with previous hardware. I would describe what Sony did more as hardware compatibility and what MS did as abstracted and virtualized. Shit is way above my pay grade, but interesting to think about the general approach.

 

[DynamiteCop!]

I think the main take away from PS4 Pro and Xbox One X should be the method of achieving compatibility with previous hardware. I would describe what Sony did more as hardware compatibility and what MS did as abstracted and virtualized. Shit is way above my pay grade, but interesting to think about the general approach.

I would agree with that as the Pro shares a lot more in common with the PS4 than the X does with the Xbox One.

I'm sure there was a lot of wizardry involved with the BC of the X and ensuring compatibility.

 

[CrustyBritches]

I would agree with that as the Pro shares a lot more in common with the PS4 than the X does with the Xbox One.

I'm sure there was a lot of wizardry involved with the BC of the X and ensuring compatibility.

I always had the feeling that Polaris 10 was made on some level with PS4/PS4 Pro in mind. Looking at how Sony achieved BC with the Polaris 10 in butterfly config and the same mem config, then turn off half and downclock...that's much different than MS was dealing with moving from DDR3+ESRAM to GDDR5. The way Xbox One X handles BC with Xbox, 360, and XO is probably just part of a bigger picture. Scalability, forwards compatibility, whatever you want to call it...they are streamlined and ready.

If anything it gives precedent, that when combined with patents and Navi 10 info could yield useful insight into each manufacturer's thought process.

 

[Clear]

Nothing about the Pro in both CPU and GPU is customized, it's AMD proprietary. Sony didn't actually make architectural improvements on top of their proprietary, Microsoft did.

Categorically untrue. Cerny outlined the modifications Sony requested in substantial detail around launch.

 

[Panajev2001a]

With both of their most recent outings MIcrosoft's current hardware team appears more competent than Sony's.

Only if getting the performance crown at any cost with the Pro was the single must have point of pride priority (it was not for Sony, while MS HAD to have that at any cost) ... but you know it is not.
Could have they pushed it harder? Probably (PS4 was possibly more customised for its time), but it was a risky proposition to come out with a mid generation console, so they edged their bets too... all in all, I think they made the right call: sales wise vs X, timing, profits margins, risk mitigation, and trajectory to PS5 wise.

Comparing apples to apples would be if both teams had the same performance goal, the same target price point, and took an extra year to roll it out... MS did a good job, but nothing that would make me amazed beyond belief compared to the Pro.

In the end though, it is all about business priorities and how that influences the budget you dedicate: PS4 OS being a lot snappier, installs being faster, even while having the same if not at least comparable all in all multi media services (some could say better, but lack of UHD Blu-Ray brings that down a notch for me) is now evidence that Sony OS engineers are better than MS ones (that Sony does better OS design than MS)?

I am not saying MS does not have good chip designers, the chief architect behind the X SoC was the same one who designed the OG Xbox One too btw, as they have a good kernel of engineers dating from the 3D0/M2 days (ex Cagent), but so does Sony... with an experience in gaming SoC going for over 20 years.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Categorically untrue. Cerny outlined the modifications Sony requested in substantial detail around launch.

Compatibility with PS4 being only one of the many, but if you take anything MS marketing PR says about Xbox as gospel (including the claim of encoding DX12 instructions support in the GPU to make it sound even more impressive... part of the optimisation work they then admitted was already part of OG Xbox One) and every special thing in it as designed by MS while Sony sat on their ass and let AMD design it all... well, you can take such conclusions.

Funny thing is that no matter how deep the pockets of a company could be and how committed they are or are not, it would have made little to no business sense to go all out with PS4 Pro in the grand scheme of things. Sony, thank God, is not trying to bring yearly iterative consoles to market.

 

[DynamiteCop!]

Categorically untrue. Cerny outlined the modifications Sony requested in substantial detail around launch.

Substantial you say? So there should be an abundance of receipts, let's see them.

 

[alabtrosMyster]

Nothing about the Pro in both CPU and GPU is customized, it's AMD proprietary. Sony didn't actually make architectural improvements on top of their proprietary, Microsoft did.

Well, they should not have, because somehow the PS4 pro perform better or as good in some games (not the rule, but it has happened a couple of times).

That comment came back a couple of times (who customize more) I would like some hard fact on this - something that goes beyond fanboy drivel and some insinuations based on wording that may have been made just so Lisa Shu does not repeat the exact same thing.

I'm sorry, but MS has proven to be the most deceptive PR company in gaming so far - so I don't take anything they say at face value, often they will just use "engineered" to insinuate something that is just the same as the competition does, just like they used raytracing, it probably means nothing that we should worry about - they bragged about having virtual memory as a next-gen feature in the same presentation.

The point is, we don't have real specs sheets, just vision statements and controlled leaks. So arguing about some level of customization being a better tradeoff over some other architectural choices is useless at this point. What if MS asked for some crazy raytracing silicon to be added to their CPU/GPU, but it generates so much heat and add so much cost that they need to keep the frequencies low in order to keep the yields high - control the price? (this is an example, but it's a possible side effect of overengineering).

 

[ethomaz]

Long story short,

Sony paid AMD to make a chip.

Microsoft engineers and AMD engineers came together and made a chip.

Both paid to made a chip.

That is AMD business... there is no difference.

I don't understand where come that wish to spin things?

 

[Geki-D]

Sony paid AMD to make a chip.

collaboratively
adverb
UK /kəˈlæb.ər.ə.tɪv.li/ US /-ɚ.ə.t̬ɪv-/
in a way that involves two or more people working together for a special purpose:
We must work collaboratively with other countries facing the same threats.


custom-
prefix
UK /kʌs.təm-/ US /kʌs.təm-/
used before another word to mean "specially designed for a particular person or purpose":
custom-designed
custom-built software

 

[Nikana]

One thread tells me the PS5 is more powerful.

Another thread tells me Next Box is more powerful.

Ps6 is more powerful than both.

 

[DynamiteCop!]

Well, they should not have, because somehow the PS4 pro perform better or as good in some games (not the rule, but it has happened a couple of times).

That comment came back a couple of times (who customize more) I would like some hard fact on this - something that goes beyond fanboy drivel and some insinuations based on wording that may have been made just so Lisa Shu does not repeat the exact same thing.

I'm sorry, but MS has proven to be the most deceptive PR company in gaming so far - so I don't take anything they say at face value, often they will just use "engineered" to insinuate something that is just the same as the competition does, just like they used raytracing, it probably means nothing that we should worry about - they bragged about having virtual memory as a next-gen feature in the same presentation.

The point is, we don't have real specs sheets, just vision statements and controlled leaks. So arguing about some level of customization being a better tradeoff over some other architectural choices is useless at this point. What if MS asked for some crazy raytracing silicon to be added to their CPU/GPU, but it generates so much heat and add so much cost that they need to keep the frequencies low in order to keep the yields high - control the price? (this is an example, but it's a possible side effect of overengineering).

There's only one game (at launch) which I am aware of where the Pro actually outperforms the Xbox One X, and it's Ace Combat 7.

That game has seen 6 or 7 patches since its release so I highly doubt that's the case now, but when it was that comes down to optimization and nothing more. When equally optimized there's nothing the Pro can do that can out-render the Xbox One X, it's a computational certainty. Its GPU is of the same architecture but substantially weaker less PPC, its CPU is of the same starting architecture but underclocked and lacking the improvements Microsoft made to IPC. It has less RAM and 33% lower memory bandwidth which results in high resolution bottlenecking.

And you want to talk about Microsoft PR and being deceptive? Who sold you a 4K console that is averaging 1440p resolution with almost zero ability to actually hit 4K while the competition is averaging 1920p resolution with the ability to hit 4K in many instances? Who sold you a console with an extra 365 days of lead time that now has less enhanced games by a factor of 57 titles (437 vs. 494).

Oh Microsoft is talking out of their ass? Or did you not do the proper research? They outline their improvements, they list the scaling and what has changed. Where is the corresponding data from Sony?

 

[meirl]

Read and listen again please.

Both MS and Sony are hardware solution.

Maybe you are trying to create a false narrative?

Where did Sony ever say that they have hardware based ray tracing?

So far, only Microsoft confirmed hardware based ray tracing.

 

[ethomaz]

Where did Sony ever say that they have hardware based ray tracing?

So far, only Microsoft confirmed hardware based ray tracing.

Yeap sure

 

[Roberts]

I don't care, frankly. And regardless of hardware will probably pick PS5 over Scarlett because what's the point in having a powerful console if the library of games is lacklusting.

My backlog of at least 200 awesome games wants to have a word with you.

But yeah, let's wait until full specs are revealed.

 

[luca_29_bg]

People Matt on resetera already confirmed hardware ray-tracing for both. Come on, a little common sense.