Next-Gen PS5 & XSX |OT| Console tEch threaD

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WhispersintheWind said:
I cannot verify this as fact. Only my Speculation based of conversations. I will explain my reasoning and why I have come to the conclusions that I have reached. So here we go.

I speculate the PS5 to be 11.5TF-12TF. 13 is a possibility slightly in my Opinion I will explain why.

It is rumored and I haven't heard anything to counter the rumor as the time of me typing this. Is that Xbox Series X has more GDDR6 Memory Bandwidth. It's GPU as of now is 12TF.
It take a lot of bandwidth and memory to fed and hold data for a GPU that high and also the CPU. It is also believed the memory bus of the Xbox Series X is larger then the PS5. Because of that I don't think Higher TFlop count would be need. Because you would starve the GPU.

I believe because the The SSD On PS5 is rumored to have a higher bandwidth of 1GB higher transfer rate over The Xbox Series X you wouldn't need higher GPU with a huge TFLOP count. Because you have an advantage with SSD Transfer rate. You can render and tile resource or mega texture ( What ever name you want to name it) data to the SSD. Which would lower the grunt work of your GPU and CPU. So you can get by with a lower clocked CPU and GPU.

With a lower clocked CPU and GPU. You create less thermals. Less heat means you can go with a smaller form factor.

Also when I say Devs say they are targeting 11TF doesn't mean the console is only that. There is usually some overhead available that they use later in the optimization stage that they can leverage and polish up a game.

So in my Opinion that translates to PSV being around 11.5-12TF with 13 having a slight chance.

Now for the record no Dev has told me the exact TF count of the projected retail PSV.
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Hatsuma said:
Well one thing the Insiders are consistent about is that it very close, above 9.2, and double digits. Variance lies in how high. Majority claim above 12. Odium and Heisenberg say it is slightly in Xbox favor, so 11 close to 12
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So they pretty much said what anyone could easily predict or guess? I'll call it right now. Ps5 will be in the range of 10.2-11.6. Easy. If I'm a little off just remember things change. Boom insider batiman
 
01011001 said:
so you don't think it is desperate to automatically side with an unknown user that is unverified and says his info is vague and he has to share it through his own interpretation?

any arguments on how this is not desperate?
for real. we have people that go through pages and pages of data to find data leaks... but these data leaks are obviously not trustworthy... because... reasons.

then comes a guy noone knows, who says he knows someone who doesn't tell specifics... and you and many others instantly jump on that boat and go with it...

no sign of scepticism whatsoever... simply because you like the kind of info they share.

don't tell me that's not the case because it so obviously is.
Click to expand...

Listen man, it is not my job to credit or discredit this guy. This is a job for Mod of War Mod of War

Lets wait what he has to say about the matter, no needs to panic yet, man :)
 
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WhispersintheWind said:
I cannot verify this as fact. Only my Speculation based of conversations. I will explain my reasoning and why I have come to the conclusions that I have reached. So here we go.

I speculate the PS5 to be 11.5TF-12TF. 13 is a possibility slightly in my Opinion I will explain why.

It is rumored and I haven't heard anything to counter the rumor as the time of me typing this. Is that Xbox Series X has more GDDR6 Memory Bandwidth. It's GPU as of now is 12TF.
It take a lot of bandwidth and memory to fed and hold data for a GPU that high and also the CPU. It is also believed the memory bus of the Xbox Series X is larger then the PS5. Because of that I don't think Higher TFlop count would be need. Because you would starve the GPU.

I believe because the The SSD On PS5 is rumored to have a higher bandwidth of 1GB higher transfer rate over The Xbox Series X you wouldn't need higher GPU with a huge TFLOP count. Because you have an advantage with SSD Transfer rate. You can render and tile resource or mega texture ( What ever name you want to name it) data to the SSD. Which would lower the grunt work of your GPU and CPU. So you can get by with a lower clocked CPU and GPU.

With a lower clocked CPU and GPU. You create less thermals. Less heat means you can go with a smaller form factor.

Also when I say Devs say they are targeting 11TF doesn't mean the console is only that. There is usually some overhead available that they use later in the optimization stage that they can leverage and polish up a game.

So in my Opinion that translates to PSV being around 11.5-12TF with 13 having a slight chance.

Now for the record no Dev has told me the exact TF count of the projected retail PSV.
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That's pretty much the most obvious outcome though.... Really hard to be wrong there
 
WhispersintheWind said:
No Not speaking in code. My New IPhone 11 Pro Max does it on its own. I have big hands also.
Click to expand...

I hear the new iPhone 11 Pro Max Mach 3 tends to randomly leak information on message boards for the joy of all people. Is it the same with the iPhone 11 Pro Max Regular?

Also, show us your hands! we need to verify these hands (preferably holding that iPhone 11 Pro Max)



(How thirsty did I sound? 😆)
 
WhispersintheWind said:
I cannot verify this as fact. Only my Speculation based of conversations. I will explain my reasoning and why I have come to the conclusions that I have reached. So here we go.

I speculate the PS5 to be 11.5TF-12TF. 13 is a possibility slightly in my Opinion I will explain why.

It is rumored and I haven't heard anything to counter the rumor as the time of me typing this. Is that Xbox Series X has more GDDR6 Memory Bandwidth. It's GPU as of now is 12TF.
It take a lot of bandwidth and memory to fed and hold data for a GPU that high and also the CPU. It is also believed the memory bus of the Xbox Series X is larger then the PS5. Because of that I don't think Higher TFlop count would be need. Because you would starve the GPU.

I believe because the The SSD On PS5 is rumored to have a higher bandwidth of 1GB higher transfer rate over The Xbox Series X you wouldn't need higher GPU with a huge TFLOP count. Because you have an advantage with SSD Transfer rate. You can render and tile resource or mega texture ( What ever name you want to name it) data to the SSD. Which would lower the grunt work of your GPU and CPU. So you can get by with a lower clocked CPU and GPU.

With a lower clocked CPU and GPU. You create less thermals. Less heat means you can go with a smaller form factor.

Also when I say Devs say they are targeting 11TF doesn't mean the console is only that. There is usually some overhead available that they use later in the optimization stage that they can leverage and polish up a game.

So in my Opinion that translates to PSV being around 11.5-12TF with 13 having a slight chance.

Now for the record no Dev has told me the exact TF count of the projected retail PSV.
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Just when the thread was getting stale, I get pulled back in!
 
Batiman said:
So they pretty much said what anyone could easily predict or guess? I'll call it right now. Ps5 will be in the range of 10.2-11.6. Easy. If I'm a little off just remember things change. Boom insider batiman
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Send your receipts to the mods for verification before you claim to be an insider.
 
Guys, I want to remind you something. BG is a real developer and he clearly suggest PS5 isnt 9.2TF. With RDNA2 info on top of that is safe to assume PS5 is really close to XSX, and maybe even faster (Osiris Black has mentioned 12-13TF).
 
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thicc_girls_are_teh_best said:
It's not even so much what I saw in there (btw I personally still at least feel the actual chip is a bit bigger than that), versus a lot of surrounding circumstantial information. Basically what I'm referring to (in no particular order):

  1. -Rumors of PS5 releasing in 2019
  2. -Supposed delay of PS5 launch in 2019 thanks to stronger-than-expected sales performance
  3. -Earlier quotes of Sony saying something to the effect of targeting affordability (TBF could be interpreted in different ways, i.e
  4. subsidization through software sales and subscriptions)
  5. -Somewhat recent-ish comments from Jim Ryan once again interpreted as aiming for a solid price
  6. -Recent Bloomberg article giving a price estimate on the BOM
  7. -Zhuge EX (reliable sales insider) giving their own BOM estimates mostly matching up with the Bloomberg article
  8. -Relative history of Sony console pricing in the past (i.e they've always targeted being at most only as expensive as the competition, never exceeding them in price. I.e PS1 was about in-between N64 and Saturn in pricing (actually when you consider you had to get an extra game and memory card with the PS1 to match the launch Saturn package it was only about $25 cheaper but that's still cheaper), PS2 did not exceed OG Xbox in price and was a bit cheaper than OG Xbox because you needed to get the $30 DVD remote to use OG Xbox as DVD player, etc.)
  9. -PS4 doing very well selling at $399 even if just for a slight loss for a few months (the speculated $450 BOM estimate is probably not that much higher than PS4's BOM at its launch)
  10. -Base PS4/PS4 Pro sales ratio very strongly favoring base PS4, even just looking at holiday 2016-onward (might've convinced Sony to take a more conservative yet balanced approach in system design knowing they'd have leeway to go cheaper than MS, who likely will have to price themselves north of Sony since they've had little choice but to chase the power narrative this time)
  11. -Quietness from Sony recently mirroring their quietness around PS4 Pro shortly after MS revealed the X (yes the PS team has completely changed but the pattern is still the same).
  12. -Sony opening focus on PS5 news on speed, particularly the SSD speed
  13. -MS and Sony likely knowing a good bit more of each other's specs than any dataminers or insiders, yet MS still chose to openly state their 12TF figure among other things somewhat brazenly (I would also say they know a good bit on each other's specs because of future necessities such as Sony's utilization of the Azure servers for PS cloud backend)
  14. -Sudden PS departures such as Shawn Layden which has still gone unexplained (idea seems to be he had disagreements with Jim Ryan)
  15. -Jim Ryan's nature as a "business-first" guy who likes to maximize revenue and profit; it doesn't matter what crazy stuff Mark Cerny can technically do, if he doesn't get approval from the top to do them, then he can't do them.
  16. -Unquestionable PS4 success (selling even faster than PS1 and even PS2 for a good long while) accomplished with a relatively conservative performance target hitting $399 MSRP at its launch (likely solidifying the desire to pursue similar results with PS5. Even if XSX doesn't screw up with Kinect or "TV TV TV", Sony would have effectively pushed them into a power narrative that by necessity puts them out of a sweetspot $399 range)
  17. -Jim Ryan's comments about wanting PS4 owners to transition to PS5 as fast as possible
  18. -Persistent Oberon testing data spanning from June 2019 to January 2020 (that's this year btw)
  19. -All Oberon testing data being relatively consistent (that we know of) in terms of CU counts from revision to revision (that CU count could be referencing Ariel iGPU data but it'd seem some of the dataminers have provided more context on some of the more recent test data being ran on Oberon outside of Ariel iGPU? Still trying to get a definitive answer on that one)/
  20. -A 36/40 (perhaps even somewhat larger) GPU being very well-fed by a 256-bit memory bus
  21. -Sony seemingly wanting big volumes in stores, best way to hit that is to disable 4CUs on the chip for better yields (granted maybe the cooling talk is because they're going with a full 40CU chip but just slightly lower clocked? Dunno)

With all of that said, again it's not the only scenario I can see playing out for the system. I wouldn't even say the delta between it and a scenario with a somewhat larger chip is that big TBQH. But all of those reasons above are why I think 36/40 is the most probable (and I hope folks can see that all of it is literally just based on me looking at those mentioned points as neutral as possible i.e not pro-MS/anti-Sony or any BS like that. But all of that stuff does begin to stack on top of one another and leads down an inevitable conclusion IMHO).
Click to expand...

Thanks, today I actually came around to thinking 36-40 CU's is most probable, but I would never bet on that because of statements by Klee, Heisenberg and BGs contradicting that configuration. I also think that even if there is a 3 TF difference between the consoles, it's highly likely the performance of them are very close, which would fall in line with what most, if not all, developer leaks have said. Plus, I do believe that 9.2 TF RDNA2 is superior to an RX2080 in power, and that would align with what Schreier said as well.
 
Batiman said:
So they pretty much said what anyone could easily predict or guess? I'll call it right now. Ps5 will be in the range of 10.2-11.6. Easy. If I'm a little off just remember things change. Boom insider batiman
Click to expand...

That's where the main variability lies. No matter the side the numbers champion, they have all consistently claimed the systems are near identical. Either they are all lying, being told fake numbers, or being fed controlled leaks. It's a possibility, but some noteworthy industry characters like Reiner, Moriarty, and Schreier have claimed it is close. Anything is possible I guess.
 
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thicc_girls_are_teh_best said:
Well why can't we find any actual chips matching that specific performance range, when it's already middle of March 2020 (same year PS5 is supposedly launching)?

That's been my biggest skepticism behind some of these newer spec rumors. They all feel almost reactionary, and continuously creeping upward, while varying wildly almost as consistently.

But to give you an example, you can technically reach 11.5TF with a 40CU chip if you have all 40CUs on clocked @2.25GHz. I mean, if Oberon has already been tested at 2GHz what's to say they have not pushed it further than that...

...is how I try relating the testing data with, say, your claim here. Except the problem is there is no clock setting in any of that data actually reflecting 40CUs @ 2.25GHz. So does that leave another yet-undocumented Oberon revision? And if so what's the setup for that revision differing it from the most recently-known one?

Because your word alone isn't going to get me to discard actual data completely. At the very least, it's speculation I can combine with that data and try finding something in the middle. But the middle doesn't necessarily have to be the obvious middle I suppose.
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I think you are relying too much on github with this answer though. I don't believe anyone knows how many CU's were disabled, unless there's something that I missed. That's what I was asking you about earlier.
 
Like I said if Mod of War Mod of War isn't on. I'm willing to verify and vet what i said about the conversation with a dev with another mod if they know the context of the situation. If somebody knows another mod to Page.
44alltheway said:
WhispersintheWind WhispersintheWind , you say that your source is at a major (third party?) dev. If they are third party, that person would also have access to the series x right? Have you heard anything about it?
Click to expand...

What is already out there. And what I posted in my first Post here on Neogaf.
 
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WhispersintheWind said:
I believe they can get by with saying we are targeting 11TF perf. Versus saying PS5 Retail console is.....
Click to expand...

Well it's safer to remain vague at this point, the most believed insiders do just that.

Almost anyone who has come in and tried to drop hard specifics has been proven wrong over a number things from event dates to Lockhart.

Stay safe, stay vague, stay relevant.
 
WhispersintheWind said:
Except that's not what devs are telling me. The system is not 9.2TF. I would say it's between 11.5-13TF...

In Fact had a Dev tell me in a message off site that a recent leak was 100% right with PS5. Just waiting on him to tell me which one.

For the record I can back what I'm saying up if Mod of War Mod of War wants to verify it. That I'm waiting on a response to which leak by a Dev.
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Oww now we have to look all the last leaks
 
BlacknGold_Blood said:
I think you are relying too much on github with this answer though. I don't believe anyone knows how many CU's were disabled, unless there's something that I missed. That's what I was asking you about earlier.
Click to expand...

It's possible I might, although like I said it's not the only scenario I can see playing out, just the most likely given everything I've been keeping track of. If things play out like they should I think some corroborating testing data should eventually come forth lining up with some of the insider speculation that's more well outside of what current data shows.

If it doesn't, then I guess it was speculation leading to a dead end. But there's still ways where the insiders can be right and some later Oberon revision is still the chip; there's different methods Sony could take to reach a given TF amount but the only method we have any actual info on is a 40CU Oberon chip. That's the main point in all of this for right now IMO.

Playboi Carti said:
I don't know, you tell me. How much IPC gains does RDNA2 have over RDNA1?
Click to expand...

50% extra perf-per-watt vs RDNA1, but that doesn't actually translate into 50% throughput over RDNA1.

Safer throughput amount is probably between 15% - 20%.

WhispersintheWind said:
I cannot verify this as fact. Only my Speculation based of conversations. I will explain my reasoning and why I have come to the conclusions that I have reached. So here we go.

I speculate the PS5 to be 11.5TF-12TF. 13 is a possibility slightly in my Opinion I will explain why.

It is rumored and I haven't heard anything to counter the rumor as the time of me typing this. Is that Xbox Series X has more GDDR6 Memory Bandwidth. It's GPU as of now is 12TF.
It take a lot of bandwidth and memory to fed and hold data for a GPU that high and also the CPU. It is also believed the memory bus of the Xbox Series X is larger then the PS5. Because of that I don't think Higher TFlop count would be need. Because you would starve the GPU.

I believe because the The SSD On PS5 is rumored to have a higher bandwidth of 1GB higher transfer rate over The Xbox Series X you wouldn't need higher GPU with a huge TFLOP count. Because you have an advantage with SSD Transfer rate. You can render and tile resource or mega texture ( What ever name you want to name it) data to the SSD. Which would lower the grunt work of your GPU and CPU. So you can get by with a lower clocked CPU and GPU.

With a lower clocked CPU and GPU. You create less thermals. Less heat means you can go with a smaller form factor.

Also when I say Devs say they are targeting 11TF doesn't mean the console is only that. There is usually some overhead available that they use later in the optimization stage that they can leverage and polish up a game.

So in my Opinion that translates to PSV being around 11.5-12TF with 13 having a slight chance.

Now for the record no Dev has told me the exact TF count of the projected retail PSV.
Click to expand...

Wait, so... they might push to 13...yet they have a narrower bus (256-bit) and you even say here that higher than 12 for XSX isn't needed because the GPU would be starved.

So wouldn't PS5's GPU be massively starved? It would have an even smaller bus and even less amount of memory, So let's say the memory bandwidth is 512GB/s. That's about 39GB per TF with 16Gbps chips. Assuming XSX has the same 16Gbps chips, at same clock as PS5s, and so they're getting 53.3GB per TF.

But last gen, Sony had about 95GB per TF, and the XBO had about 55.5 GB per TF (just counting the DDR3, not the ESRAM). Why would Sony want to drop per TF bandwidth so massively from PS4 to PS5?

The thing with the SSDs is that yes they will be very advanced in both and PS5's might be faster, but speed and bandwidth aren't the same thing. It can be faster but actually have narrower bandwidth on the SSD for all we know, because the bandwidth will depend a lot on the NAND layout of the SSD itself. And that's the other thing: it's still NAND. They will memory-map chunks of it and use it as a virtual cache but it still lacks the speed and some of the bit/byte alterability of volatile RAM like the GDDR6, the CPU cache memory etc.

Or maybe I can give some leeway here and perhaps the SSD is using some persistent memory, like those recent Micron X100 drives?

Well, that's just my own takeaway on it. The elaboration's appreciated even if we're kinda seeing this differently. But that about does it for me for now, need some shut eye :sleep:
 
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thicc_girls_are_teh_best said:
It's possible I might, although like I said it's not the only scenario I can see playing out, just the most likely given everything I've been keeping track of. If things play out like they should I think some corroborating testing data should eventually come forth lining up with some of the insider speculation that's more well outside of what current data shows.

If it doesn't, then I guess it was speculation leading to a dead end. But there's still ways where the insiders can be right and some later Oberon revision is still the chip; there's different methods Sony could take to reach a given TF amount but the only method we have any actual info on is a 40CU Oberon chip. That's the main point in all of this for right now IMO.



50% extra perf-per-watt vs RDNA1, but that doesn't actually translate into 50% throughput over RDNA1.

Safer throughput amount is probably between 15% - 20%.
Click to expand...
Someone on era said that based on AMD saying at FAD that RDNA2 gains were "based on internal estimates," he doesn't think AMD has RDNA2 silicon ready yet. Otherwise, why wouldn't they test the silicon instead of using estimates? If he's right, I'd think that would put more doubt on Oberon being an RDNA2 chip back at the time of Github, but who knows?
 
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thicc_girls_are_teh_best said:
It's possible I might, although like I said it's not the only scenario I can see playing out, just the most likely given everything I've been keeping track of. If things play out like they should I think some corroborating testing data should eventually come forth lining up with some of the insider speculation that's more well outside of what current data shows.

If it doesn't, then I guess it was speculation leading to a dead end. But there's still ways where the insiders can be right and some later Oberon revision is still the chip; there's different methods Sony could take to reach a given TF amount but the only method we have any actual info on is a 40CU Oberon chip. That's the main point in all of this for right now IMO.



50% extra perf-per-watt vs RDNA1, but that doesn't actually translate into 50% throughput over RDNA1.

Safer throughput amount is probably between 15% - 20%.



Wait, so... they might push to 13...yet they have a narrower bus (256-bit) and you even say here that higher than 12 for XSX isn't needed because the GPU would be starved.

So wouldn't PS5's GPU be massively starved? It would have an even smaller bus and even less amount of memory, So let's say the memory bandwidth is 512GB/s. That's about 39GB per TF with 16Gbps chips. Assuming XSX has the same 16Gbps chips, at same clock as PS5s, and so they're getting 53.3GB per TF.

But last gen, Sony had about 95GB per TF, and the XBO had about 55.5 GB per TF (just counting the DDR3, not the ESRAM). Why would Sony want to drop per TF bandwidth so massively from PS4 to PS5?

The thing with the SSDs is that yes they will be very advanced in both and PS5's might be faster, but speed and bandwidth aren't the same thing. It can be faster but actually have narrower bandwidth on the SSD for all we know, because the bandwidth will depend a lot on the NAND layout of the SSD itself. And that's the other thing: it's still NAND. They will memory-map chunks of it and use it as a virtual cache but it still lacks the speed and some of the bit/byte alterability of volatile RAM like the GDDR6, the CPU cache memory etc.

Or maybe I can give some leeway here and perhaps the SSD is using some persistent memory, like those recent Micron X100 drives?

Well, that's just my own takeaway on it. The elaboration's appreciated even if we're kinda seeing this differently. But that about does it for me for now, need some shut eye :sleep:
Click to expand...
I was speaking of PS5 if the PS5 had lower Memory bandwidth and bus. It would be starved with a high TF GPU.

Rumor is Xbox Series have higher Memory Bandwidth and Bus. Maybe I didn't make that part clear?

Also Sony Supposedly has a patent on some Tech with Nand In PS5 SSD that makes them faster for Virtual Ram and Caching data from them in a Consistent stream. Like I said that is a rumor.
 
WhispersintheWind said:
I was speaking of PS5 if the PS5 had lower Memory bandwidth and bus. It would be starved with a high TF GPU.

Rumor is Xbox Series have higher Memory Bandwidth and Bus. Maybe I didn't make that part clear?

Also Sony Supposedly has a patent on some Tech with Nand In PS5 SSD that makes them faster for Virtual Ram and Caching data from them in a Consistent stream. Like I said that is a rumor.
Click to expand...

Rumor as in what? Your dev contacts or reddit/pastebin?
 
WhispersintheWind said:
I have legitimately sent Mod of War Mod of War evidence. But if he isn't on and another mod is. I willing to send evidence and proof to them if the PM conversation me.
Click to expand...

What kind of evidence did you send him? Because at the moment you are only sharing your opinion.

It is the factual evidence/data what people here are looking for.

I am telling this because I could send to Mod of War Mod of War a photo of me with Mr Cerny in an E3 and this would not show that I have inside info from Sony.

Data, man ;)
 
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Self High Five said:
Rumor as in what? Your dev contacts or reddit/pastebin?
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A Little Bit of everything above. Somethings I haven't got Info on. Can only go with speculation and rumor on. So when I say rumor it's that until I get info that changes that.

Also talking with Devs they don't just tell everything and at the same time they don't always do yes and no questions either. You accept the info they are willing to share.
 
WhispersintheWind said:
A Little Bit of everything above. Somethings I haven't got Info on. Can only go with speculation and rumor on. So when I say rumor it's that until I get info that changes that.

Also talking with Devs they don't just tell everything and at the same time they don't always do yes and no questions either. You accept the info they are willing to share.
Click to expand...

Cool, but beware going forward any information you provide some ppl are going to believe it is insider information unless you clarify.
 
Rusco Da Vino said:
What kind of evidence did you send him? Because at the moment you are only sharing your opinion.

It is the factual evidence/data what people here are looking for.

I am telling this because I could send to Mod of War Mod of War a photo of me with Mr Cerny in an E3 and this would not show that I have inside info from Sony.

Data, man ;)
Click to expand...
The Evidence Clearly shows the dev saying a recent leak is 100% fact. It also shows me trying to narrow down which one. It clearly shows me asking about projects they are working on.
 
Yes yes yes I can feel it.. it's finally time.
No longer do I have to say " why are we here, just to suffer for nothing ?" 😂😂😂
 
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Question: Do manufacturers like AMD and Nvidia normally round up their new cards TF numbers when they first announce it?
 
VanSiriusGabriel said:
Well, according to Wikipedia there are technical differences between OLED and QLED, they are different technologies for what I understand. It's not just "well it's OLED but it's Samsung so QLED it is".
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QLED is just LCD with LED backlight. There are OLED's and there are LCD's, even the best TV's in the future which are microLED are LCD's. Just keep an eye for the new models and their reviews.
 
I realize how much more efficient RDNA is over GCN in terms of Compute performance, but I still do not believe for a second Sony would target below double digit Tflop numbers. PS5 might not be 12 Tflops, but 9.2 vs 12 Teraflops looks a lot worse than 4.2 vs 6 Tflops did. It'll 100% be 10 Tflops minimum.
 
Gamernyc78 said:
Bro wtf? I make my own hotsauce and first put tht on the pizza then put pineapples on top. Lol you sure we not related? 🤔 🤔 🤔
Click to expand...

I avoided talking about pineapples inside beef burgers being a hit here few months back and you actually need to come fast for the guy doing it or he'll run out of ingredients. Now I feel more secure with that inflated, strong arm siding with me and protecting me from potential death threats. You know, just like vegans. (I have nothing against vegans though, but I find them a bit hostile against meat-eaters:messenger_tears_of_joy:)

 
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