Support NeoGAF

[chilleverest]

Lmao its his way of saying ''we cant compete with the quality of Sony's exclusives'' so he has to come up with something that sounds pro consumer but really isnt.

 

[DeltaPolarBear]

They will just PR the shit out of the situation they are in at that time and people will lap it up. Years ago Phil was singing a different tune about exclusives as was already posted by someone here. MS was singing a different tune about sales, MS was singing a different tune about cross-play, etc.

Now it suits them to say they don't need exclusives because they need the install base to have the software they are selling do well. They need the sales from the past gen, they need cross-play. They will do all that by putting on the PR spin that this is all for you, all pro-consumer.
If in 5 years time they do better the tune will change again and it will still have the same spin of how the opposite is now good for you.

The fact is no company is "pro-consumer". And any company that says so is lying. To say it is "pro-consumer" is just trying to pretend they didn't do it for a different reason. Like, for example, that their Series X 1st party games are behind schedule and can't make it to launch.

Console makers are not your friends. Anyone who isn't your friend, trying to pretend to be your friend, is trying to deceive you.

 

[oldergamer]

I guess that Get a Second Job pushed a button there? The mental gymnastic you are playing to both justify anything Phil is saying now about their cross generation approach for first party titles and not completely look like a fool in 8-14 months when they start announcing their own first party XSX exclusives is mind boggling and so entertaining.

As a bonus, you get some truly wow worthy moments when you get people tying it to Xbox One not holding XSX back by saying that as long as the game runs at all on Xbox One no matter how shitty it looks or runs then MS has fulfilled their promise and is not having the minimum common denominator of the Xbox One holding things back for the XSX vision (games are ported down afterwards/XSX is the lead and target platform) or burning R&D budget at all.

I thought it was funny, i mean "Get s second job" was famously a quote from Ken Kutagari after announcing the price of ps5 er i mean ps3. Announcing a machine that is more expensive and less powerful, isnt easy to explain away truly a wow moment.

So now not only do you "know" how optimized the game is on xsx will be, but you also "know" that it will be a shitty port and ms is targeting the end goal of "as long as it runs" ? Your chock full of bollocks today i see.

You know how porting works (or should) and you know quality level is dependent on how much down port time is spent, and how much can be rewritten to be more optimal for that older hardware often with alternate paths through code.

Apparently unreal engine can allow for game scaling but no other tech or game engine can achieve a similar feat, right? I guess that xbox 360 version of titanfall really sucked for people that bought it.

 

[oldergamer]

Lmao its his way of saying ''we cant compete with the quality of Sony's exclusives'' so he has to come up with something that sounds pro consumer but really isnt.

Until ms shows us "cross gen" games that look better and appear more next gen then what sony showed on ps5. Im sure this and other sony fan statements will shift the goalposts to "but what happens a year from now??? "

 

[Drewpee]

Because putting it on Playstation means third party games in Gamepass would have its profit split three ways rather than two. Surely you are not blind to that simple math? And Playstation being the platform holder would demand the full 30% REVINUE, and whatever left is then split between third party studios and Microsoft.

It seems like GamePass potentially coming to Nintedo and PS has really triggered you this morning. Is everything ok? We are just having a pointless conversation about 2 giant companies that have no idea we exist, there is no need to escalate.

 

[geordiemp]

I thought it was funny, i mean "Get s second job" was famously a quote from Ken Kutagari after announcing the price of ps5 er i mean ps3. Announcing a machine that is more expensive and less powerful, isnt easy to explain away

So now not only do you "know" how optimized the game is on xsx will be, but you also "know" that it will be a shitty port and ms is targeting the end goal of "as long as it runs" ? Your chock full of bollocks today i see.

You know how porting works (or should) and you know quality level is dependent on how much down port time is spent, and how much can be rewritten to be more optimal for that older hardware often with alternate paths through code.

Apparently unreal engine can allow for game scaling but no other tech or game engine can achieve a similar feat, right? I guess that xbox 360 version of titanfall really sucked for people that bought it.

360 and Xb1 CPU were both toaster CPUs so of course....

Zen2 and Jaguar is not comparable.

 

[Qudrat Rabbi]

Until ms shows us "cross gen" games that look better and appear more next gen then what sony showed on ps5. Im sure this and other sony fan statements will shift the goalposts to "but what happens a year from now??? "

You should be asking yourself that as well. What happens a year from now? I mean we all remember OG xbone having a stronger first year in terms of exclusives (sunset overdrive, titanfall) and then what happened? It literally fell off the cliff. Xbox always aims for a better head start and then just wanna rely on third party.

 

[Hobbygaming]

Are exclusives gonna be enough for them? I get the console being stronger thing and them having more studios but there is a huge number of people with a huge digital library of games who will just move to ps5 from ps4. Not only do they have to do everything right, the have to kinda pray for Sony to fuck up as well. Otherwise I just don't see Xbox taking on ps5

You're right. I don't think there's a chance even with the cheaper Lockhart

 

[DeltaPolarBear]

It seems like GamePass potentially coming to Nintedo and PS has really triggered you this morning. Is everything ok? We are just having a pointless conversation about 2 giant companies that have no idea we exist, there is no need to escalate.

I am not sure accusing me of being "triggered", what ever that means, is your way of swimming in a river in Egypt.
When you start to pretend "both sides are wrong", is when you admit you lose the argument. Good day and enjoy quite possibly Xbox's final console generation.

 

[Azurro]

In the same interview he discusses this to.



He's completely right here.

You don't have an argument there, Phil is not discussing anything interesting there either, he's talking BS. On PC, if your PC can't handle a piece of software, you uninstall it or change parameters. Modularity, scalability, simple, right?

However, in a game, what if you create a core game mechanic that is heavy on the CPU and you build your game around this mechanic? What if this mechanic can't run on a Jaguar CPU? You can't rip out the mechanic, as you either don't have a game, or you have to design two games. You need a game in both XSX and Xbox One, so what will designers do? It's too expensive to design two games and you need a game on both machines, so you will design with the lowest common denominator, the Jaguar CPU, and build from that.

I get that your preference is Xbox and you think it's just fanboys attacking, but that's not the case. Why do you think they are going around mentioning 120 FPS, a feature almost literally no one has a TV capable of, and scalability? Because they only have cross gen games to offer and are trying to market that as a good thing.

 

[Drewpee]

I am not sure accusing me of being "triggered", what ever that means, is your way of swimming in a river in Egypt.
When you start to pretend "both sides are wrong", is when you admit you lose the argument. Good day and enjoy quite possibly Xbox's final console generation.

You do the same

 

[Great Hair]

"Get s second job" was famously a quote from Ken Kutagari

WRONG! He never said that.

During a recent interview with Japanese economic website Toyo Keizai, ever-charming Ken Kutaragi had this to say about Sony's goal for the PS3: "for consumers to think to themselves 'I will work more hours to buy one'.

 

[Nikana]

Y'all mother fuckers need Jesus.

 

[Deleted member 775630]

You don't have an argument there, Phil is not discussing anything interesting there either, he's talking BS. On PC, if your PC can't handle a piece of software, you uninstall it or change parameters. Modularity, scalability, simple, right?

However, in a game, what if you create a core game mechanic that is heavy on the CPU and you build your game around this mechanic? What if this mechanic can't run on a Jaguar CPU? You can't rip out the mechanic, as you either don't have a game, or you have to design two games. You need a game in both XSX and Xbox One, so what will designers do? It's too expensive to design two games and you need a game on both machines, so you will design with the lowest common denominator, the Jaguar CPU, and build from that.

I get that your preference is Xbox and you think it's just fanboys attacking, but that's not the case. Why do you think they are going around mentioning 120 FPS, a feature almost literally no one has a TV capable of, and scalability? Because they only have cross gen games to offer and are trying to market that as a good thing.

Like I said developers can decide this themselves... So again no issue here. Developers decide which hardware they support, so if THEY want to support jaguar CPU they can. Just like THEY can decide to support i3 gen-5 Intel CPU

 

[Keihart]

damn, sounds like someone wants to jump out of consoles altogether there.
yikes!

 

[vkbest]

Exclusives provide the most value to a game console. It has always been this way. If it wasn't for exclusives we might as well have one console manufacturer

Killzone and Knack were crap and people bought PS4. People buys launching consoles because they want some new. Microsoft strategy is pretty better than Sony. MS can release a Halo because is cross gen, Sony couldnt because they would lose much money with AAA on a console with 0 users. That is because they are releasing Ghost and last of us 2 on PS4.

Spiderman is a DLC reusing the original game assets and code, probably even began like cross gen.

 

[Azurro]

Like I said developers can decide this themselves... So again no issue here. Developers decide which hardware they support, so if THEY want to support jaguar CPU they can. Just like THEY can decide to support i3 gen-5 Intel CPU

I'm a developer too (not games though), I just explained to you how this works and how a piece of software can be hamstrung by old hardware. You are not even disagreeing with me here, if course if management comes and says "make me a cross gen game", then development will do just that. You think developers will willingly go "let's make a game hamstrung by this shitty ~9 year old CPU"?

Fact is, MS only has cross gen games hamstrung by old hardware at the moment and are just trying to market their way out of that decision.

 

[splattered]

Some people will be eating their own words when in a year or so PS5 games will be playable on Epic store, how about then you'll see exclusives to a console won't be a thing anymore.

Unfortunately that's exactly what it's going to take for certain people to wake up... and then when they finally don't have that argument anymore they will suddenly be ok with it but find something else to fight about.

 

[Psykodad]

MS can release a Halo because is cross gen, Sony couldnt because they would lose much money with AAA on a console with 0 users. That is because they are releasing Ghost and last of us 2 on PS4.

Maybe it's because I need some sleep, but

 

[Explosive Zombie]

Killzone and Knack were crap and people bought PS4. People buys launching consoles because they want some new. Microsoft strategy is pretty better than Sony. MS can release a Halo because is cross gen, Sony couldnt because they would lose much money with AAA on a console with 0 users. That is because they are releasing Ghost and last of us 2 on PS4.

Spiderman is a DLC reusing the original game assets and code, probably even began like cross gen.

Killzone is great.

 

[Elog]

Like I said developers can decide this themselves... So again no issue here. Developers decide which hardware they support, so if THEY want to support jaguar CPU they can. Just like THEY can decide to support i3 gen-5 Intel CPU

The point is that a bunch of features are not scalable but discrete. That is Azurro's point. Phil is avoiding that topic like the plague.

FPS is scalable. Native resolution is scalable. That is why those two things are the most talked about on the PC platform and by MS as of now. Almost all other features are not scalable at all or only semi-scalable and will require different versions of the same software to function on various platforms (and hence the different game versions will not be the same).

Edit: Spelling

 

[Hobbygaming]

Killzone and Knack were crap and people bought PS4. People buys launching consoles because they want some new. Microsoft strategy is pretty better than Sony. MS can release a Halo because is cross gen, Sony couldnt because they would lose much money with AAA on a console with 0 users. That is because they are releasing Ghost and last of us 2 on PS4.

Spiderman is a DLC reusing the original game assets and code, probably even began like cross gen.

Most people didn't buy a PS4 for Killzone and Knack. They bought a PS4 because they knew PS4 would have the best exclusive software

Spider-man Miles Morales will sell consoles and most likely more than Halo, Horizon Forbidden West will do the same in 2021. They can release big titles early to get people to buy the new console

 

[quest]

Killzone and Knack were crap and people bought PS4. People buys launching consoles because they want some new. Microsoft strategy is pretty better than Sony. MS can release a Halo because is cross gen, Sony couldnt because they would lose much money with AAA on a console with 0 users. That is because they are releasing Ghost and last of us 2 on PS4.

Spiderman is a DLC reusing the original game assets and code, probably even began like cross gen.

Or course its cross generation Sony just gives it an "exclusive" yippy. At least Microsoft is being honest about it and not screwing over current customers for the "exclusive" label. Spiderman miles should be released on the ps4 its just story line DLC for current version with some new skins.

 

[oldergamer]

Scaling after the fact you decided to build a game for both XB1 and Series X is not the issue. Under these conditions, of course it will be possible. But the problem is the types of games devs are making from the beginning when they are shackled to netbook CPUs and HDDs. Say hypothetically you have two dev teams at 343i:

- One is asked to make a Perfect Dark FPS where the baseline is a 12tflop system with 2.5gb SSD and 16gb system memory
- The other is asked to make a Perfect Dark FPS where the baseline is a 1.3tflop system with a ridiculously slow HDD

What you would end up with would be very different. This right here is my problem with it. The issue is not whether scaling after the fact is possible. It's the scope and ambition of the exclusive games from their inception being impacted by having to be cross gen with an 8 year old piece of tech.

I swear by Street Jesus (good luck tonight Jorge) that if this was Sony doing it I would voice my absolute displeasure. It's holding back the hobby because of greed (wanting as large an install base as possible for their exclusives).

Thats the thing though. You don't have to port or scale after the fact. The port can be nearly at the same time or trail by a few weeks. It could have a dedicated port team

In your example it would be very different graphically but how different otherwise is dependent on how much time and resources are used.

The thing is sony does do this from time to time. Forget the time difference and if they waited until the game ported from was complete. Didnt they have a few titles released on both ps3 and ps4 and will do the same with ps4 and ps5. If you all are saying this is only possible wafter fully completing the game they are ported from, i think you are clearly wrong.

 

[Dory16]

You don't have an argument there, Phil is not discussing anything interesting there either, he's talking BS. On PC, if your PC can't handle a piece of software, you uninstall it or change parameters. Modularity, scalability, simple, right?

However, in a game, what if you create a core game mechanic that is heavy on the CPU and you build your game around this mechanic? What if this mechanic can't run on a Jaguar CPU? You can't rip out the mechanic, as you either don't have a game, or you have to design two games. You need a game in both XSX and Xbox One, so what will designers do? It's too expensive to design two games and you need a game on both machines, so you will design with the lowest common denominator, the Jaguar CPU, and build from that.

I get that your preference is Xbox and you think it's just fanboys attacking, but that's not the case. Why do you think they are going around mentioning 120 FPS, a feature almost literally no one has a TV capable of, and scalability? Because they only have cross gen games to offer and are trying to market that as a good thing.

The mandate is only in first party games (and for another year). That means MS fits the bill if the Jaguar version needs to be so gimped that it requires a complete different team to focus on it. They've done it before with Forza Horizon.
Not sure why you're worrying about this more than the developers or the CFO or Microsoft. None of them has (publicly) complained so far.
They're hoping you'll be too busy playing the great games that arrive weekly on game pass to worry about their jobs but I guess they don't control manufactured controversies.

 

[oldergamer]

That was a game written for Jaguar. Thats the whole point, Zen2 is well over 4 x Jaguar.

Go watch any Destiny game with 6 enemies spawning in with same animations. Thats what it means by holding back.

We will see soon enough, Halo infinite if 10 different enemies spawn and all move and animate different = zen2 baby.

If 10 enemies spawn and all look and animate similar with the same limited intelligence, Jaguar baby.

Does not mean wont be fun to play either way, but it does limit the SCOPE.

you are latching onto one part of the hardware without clearly understanding how they are utilizing it.

Im not talking about destiny. For all we know they made engine choices that prevented them from having more enemies.

I can tell you that halo 5 had more enemies on screen and not only scaled the ai updates based on distance from the player, but scaled animation interpolation, lod, texture, lighting, etc... based on distance from the player all to maintain 60fps on xbone.

With faster hardware they wouldn't have do use those same optimizations. Not only that you could have more enemies ( if you wanted) higher res geometry, more animations, etc. Thats the point im making. Its scalable.

 

[Azurro]

The mandate is only in first party games (and for another year). That means MS fits the bill if the Jaguar version needs to be so gimped that it requires a complete different team to focus on it. They've done it before with Forza Horizon.
Not sure why you're worrying about this more than the developers or the CFO or Microsoft. None of them has (publicly) complained so far.
They're hoping you'll be too busy playing the great games that arrive weekly on game pass to worry about their jobs but I guess they don't control manufactured controversies.

That's sidestepping the discussion, if you have to make a version of the game without the core game mechanics that the only thing it has in common with the higher tier version is some gimped game assets from it, is it even the same game?

 

[Aggelos]

Well these two made it to PCs, mind you.

Death Stranding - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Horizon Zero Dawn - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The biggest gaming arena in the world is PC gaming.
Why would fill think that they Sony has many device exclusive games. Many PS5 timed exclusive will end up on PCs one way or another. There might be very few and far in between that are hardcore PS5 exclusives.
Ghotswire Tokyo and Project Athia are heading to PCs

Ghostwire: Tokyo - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Luminous Productions - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[DeepEnigma]

Well, an Xbox thread filled with Sony fanboys and MS haters. What could go wrong?



It's giving time for people who maybe can't buy a next console early to still enjoy the new games launched.

It's not that difficult to understand if you leave your hate of the brand at the door.

I don't hate the brand, you're projecting there, champ.

It was a mere mental gymnastics exercise for those in the thread. Thanks for playing, I give you and Olympic 7.

 

[GHG]

Or course its cross generation Sony just gives it an "exclusive" yippy. At least Microsoft is being honest about it and not screwing over current customers for the "exclusive" label. Spiderman miles should be released on the ps4 its just story line DLC for current version with some new skins.

Oh we have a developer that works at Insomniac who posts here?

Nice.

 

[Nikana]

I don't hate the brand, you're projecting there, champ.

It was a mere mental gymnastics exercise for those in the thread. Thanks for playing, I give you and Olympic 7.

Come on...Don't be that guy. It's painfully obvious what's going on in this thread.

Post is easily an Olympic 6.9.

 

[Deleted member 775630]

I'm a developer too (not games though), I just explained to you how this works and how a piece of software can be hamstrung by old hardware. You are not even disagreeing with me here, if course if management comes and says "make me a cross gen game", then development will do just that. You think developers will willingly go "let's make a game hamstrung by this shitty ~9 year old CPU"?

Fact is, MS only has cross gen games hamstrung by old hardware at the moment and are just trying to market their way out of that decision.

I get your point, but if you look at the games Sony showed, there wasn't one that would be held back by the CPU. You could scale all those games to work on low end PC and ps4

 

[Ascend]

It was bad at release, it's still bad and it will be bad forever.

Without going into details the project lacked focus. They wanted to make some ultimate media box, designed around it instead of making the best gaming machine with some media features sprinkled in for good measure. Its competition is the PS4, it still holds up to its initial promise, native 1080p gaming at 30 FPS, the xbo had issues holding 900p AND/OR 30fps even on its initial titles (Ryze ran at 900p and often dropped to the mid 20s--Killzone:SF ran at a native 1080p always above 30FPS).

There's a difference between a bad console and bad console hardware. The argument was about the latter, not the former. Obviously the goal posts needed to be shifted...

 

[Sentenza]

So, what's the controversial part of what he said, rabid fanboyism aside?

 

[DeepEnigma]

Come on...Don't be that guy. It's painfully obvious what's going on in this thread.

Post is easily an Olympic 6.9.

Damn, back to my training.

 

[Nikana]

So, what's the controversial part of what he said, rabid fanboyism aside?

"PC"

 

[Sentenza]

"PC"

Best platform on the planet. What about it?

 

[GHG]

I get your point, but if you look at the games Sony showed, there wasn't one that would be held back by the CPU. You could scale all those games to work on low end PC and ps4

What are you basing this off and how are you in a position to make a claim like that?

So we are now at a stage where people are claiming PS5 games could also run on the PS4 in order to make themselves feel better about Phil Spencer's claims and the direction Xbox are going in? Why?

 

[Saaleh]

▪︎Phil is against exclusives.
▪︎Phil is against next generation experience, meaning that his studios are building their games around lower common denominator (I.e. last gen consoles and low spec pc) and that's not enough for him, he is building them around a game pass service.
▪︎Phil is promoting a service based console just like pc, he will release 2 consoles with different specs, so he is probably planning to release more than one console after few years.

▪︎He is not even competing with sony.

Yet, so many proud fans devalue our hype for PS5. Phil gave up the competition and went his way.

 

[Nikana]

Best platform on the planet. What about it?

 

[igivehugs2nakedwomen]

If you really want to know how Xbone will limit the potential of SeX, just research Jaguar cpu. Then research multithreaded Zen 2 processors.

Its an OCEAN of difference. And that's just one part of the dev puzzle. SSD and RAM could be as much or more affected.

Development of software that runs on both hardware will have to be limited in scope from the very outset of process to make it work.

This is of course how cross gen always works. But the way Phil is talking, it seems they want software running on Xbone for the long haul. THAT will impede software development in a major way.

Agreed. What I'm about to say is pure speculation, but making games cross gen is more double talk and spin imo, since Series X is actually capable of running Xbox One games. Why would developers take time to make the extra effort to actually build a game from scratch that looks "next gen" and running at 60fps when all they really have to do is develop the game for the Xbox One and (figuratively speaking) slap a few options for enhanced framerates and resolutions in the options menu for the Series X version?

I think people are using their heads and questioning some of these ideas that these executives have chosen to implement. Maybe some of these executives really do think that most gamers are stupid?

 

[Aceofspades]

Halo, Gears and Forza on PS5! Cool! When is that Phil?

 

[Oddvintagechap]

Sony can have PS5 exclusives, then after a year a downgraded port to PS4 (then maybe after 4 years a PC port).

I think they should have a studio just to port all PS3 games to PC/PS4/PS5. Grow that PS Now.

 

[Kenpachii]

Sony can have PS5 exclusives, then after a year a downgraded port to PS4 (then maybe after 4 years a PC port).

I think they should have a studio just to port all PS3 games to PC/PS4/PS5. Grow that PS Now.

I think we will see PC ports far faster next generation. I think sony is also afraid of this. I don't see how upscaling the dev teams for a single console is feasible for most outlets. prices are going to balloon.

 

[Qudrat Rabbi]

Sony can have PS5 exclusives, then after a year a downgraded port to PS4 (then maybe after 4 years a PC port).

I think they should have a studio just to port all PS3 games to PC/PS4/PS5. Grow that PS Now.

i don't think we are just ready for a PSNOW future yet. The ISPs are just garbage. A lot of people in the US don't even have access to more than one. And the speeds they provide? Ugh

 

[Nikana]

i don't think we are just ready for a PSNOW future yet. The ISPs are just garbage. A lot of people in the US don't even have access to more than one. And the speeds they provide? Ugh

Data caps are the real issue in my area. We get decent speeds but the fact that every plan has the same cap is perplexing. So I'm paying to hit my cap faster?

 

[Qudrat Rabbi]

Data caps are the real issue in my area. We get decent speeds but the fact that every plan has the same cap is perplexing. So I'm paying to hit my cap faster?

Now imagine streaming games in 4K? Only imagine it, don't do it lol

 

[Nikana]

Now imagine streaming games in 4K? Only imagine it, don't do it lol

I use Xcloud sometimes from bed. It works. But that was when data caps were suspended. I would use it on a phone where a 4k resolution isn't really needed. But a full sized screen, I'm good.

 

[Psykodad]

Sony can have PS5 exclusives, then after a year a downgraded port to PS4 (then maybe after 4 years a PC port).

I think they should have a studio just to port all PS3 games to PC/PS4/PS5. Grow that PS Now.

Why would Sony release a downgraded port of a PS5 exclusive to release it on PS4 after a year?
Would make absolutely no sense whatsoever.

They even stated that they want a fast and smooth user adoption to next-gen.

 

[LeftThumbstick]

Exclusives are primarily meant to push sales and in case of a new gen, to push next-gen adoption.

The only reason Spencer says the things he's saying, is because their main titles, apart from Halo (a crossgen title), won't arrive until the end of 2021 earliest.

You need to say something when your direct competitor does actually have next-gen exclusives available day 1.
Now we're even arguing about "leaps", which is basically moving goalposts.

(Btw, talking about 1st party)

But why does it have to be that way? It seems like these rules about exclusives pushing sales ect are just made up for the console world. It's purely a marketing narrative made to sell you on new expensive things when your old inexspensive thing can still run it...

Also, someone needs to show me all these "next gen" features that can only be done on an Xbox Series X or PS5. I get the faster loading and level switching instantly ect, but it seems like by making your game reliant on one specific brand new piece of hardware that wont have a mass consumer market until a year or two in is kind of limiting the potential of sales. Shooting yourself in the foot one might say.

As far as i'm concerned, Xbox does have the most next gen title so far with Flight Simulator 2020. Show me a game on that scale that looks nearly as good or detailed. We're talking planetery scales here. I'm not worried about this whole "downgraded because not exclusive", i know any competent dev who wants to maximise the potential of their title can easily accomodate to all devices with relative ease as they all are back and forward compatible with each other, just more or less powerful.