Support NeoGAF

[jimbojim]

So, some bad news this week regarding Xbox. So, some bad PS5 rumor on the way to balance things out?

 

[zaitsu]

I'd love for something like this but the price would not be worth it

I had surface pro, acer triton 500 and zenbook. And i still went back to macos and new macbook pro. Like for me apple computers are on another level of productivity. On the other hand i went from iphone XS to s20 plus and didn't look back.

Xbox as hardware is fine, but nothing beside that. They lack software and they are software company which is funny.

PlayStation is PlayStation. Whole world knows exclusives tittles and that SONY as a brand deliver at that deparment.

I don't use windows anymore because alternative is better.
I don't use Iphone anymore because alternative is better.
I don't use xbox anymore because alternative is better.

It's all about making right choices for yourself at the moment. Being blinded by one brand will never work for longer periods of time.
Xbox right isn't the brand i want to invest in. I won't support their buisness aporach because it won't suit my needs not because i can't afford both consoles.
I've bought two console this gen from them, no more until they show some real system sellers.
Like playstation do.

 

[Dave_at_Home]

SFS is an extension of something already around on last generation and likely a part of any modern game engine. The customisations for XSX augment it. The principal of only loading in parts of a texture file you need to effectively boost IO bandwidth/save RAM isn't unique to XSX.



It's entirely bullshit. The only question is whether the guy is unknowledgeable and being taken for a ride by someone else before posting it here, or whether he's unknowledgeable and trying to take people here for a ride. Either way it's a #BAMO from me.

Secondly it's not at all a case of looking at clock speeds and doing some quickmaffs to arrive at some 9.333 (recurring, of course) teraflop number as no game ever even gets near 100% CU occupancy. Synthetic stress test dumb loop code that does could flip each transistor every cycle to technically carry out 10/12 teraflops of useless calculation would cause even the XSX to melt or thermally halt.

Quoting a developer as themselves quoting teraflops figures is laughably stupid. If for some bizarre reason they wanted to do that, they'd have to work out CU occupancy for a particular frame and then try and estimate it. It's a metric only crazed fans care about, and that is the real source for this "rumour".

It's been said many times, but fixed clock doesn't mean fixed workload per clock tick. It doesn't mean fixed "teraflops" of calculations being done per unit of time.

There's a reason a CPU or GPU can be at a fixed frequency and get hot when running a benchmark and be cool to the touch when idling.

Calculation—or work done—consumes electrical power and produces heat. Power and heat can and does vary based on the code being done, even on fixed clocks.

Targeting fixed peak power consumption is a better philosophy than targeting fixed clocks with variable power consumption.

You can't measure clock speed to determine how much work is being done. You can't measure clock speed to say "how many teraflops a console is.. hitting or struggling to hit(?!)".

You can measure power consumption to get a ballpark idea of how much work is being done. Something you can do on any modern gaming PC. Something you can even feel in the room as heat if you cohabit with a ThreadRipper. A ThreadRipper that when running as close as possible to its peak attainable work rate will actually be at a lesser clock than at a single threaded peak load.

You cannot measure how much work its doing by frequency, but you can see it graphed out plain as day in power consumption on a decent PSU.

If the power consumption is staying pegged as high as the chips TDP can handle then you're at a fixed and maximum work load, regardless of frequency fluctuations.

Your hypothesised developer would be better off profiling power consumption than frequency. In reality they'll have a GPU utilisation metric to monitor that accounts for it.

That developers are talking about "hitting" teraflop numbers is utter nonsense. Complete and utter tripe as presented by the idiot here vaguely claiming to be quoting whispers in the wind to lend it credence.

The reality of it is that game code—even efficient code with high CU occupancy—rarely loads the CU above 30-40% per unit of time. The rest of the time they're waiting on results of other things being completed, or are waiting for a cache miss to be rectified by a memory fetch etc.

Neither PS5 no XSX will ever get near their theoretical synthetic stress test maximums while playing any kind of game that reacts to input and is doing lots of different tasks.

How close they get to actually efficiently using the CUs at around 40% will depend way more on the developers, the different graphics APIs, and the slight differences in RDNA2 customisations and cache/memory architecture than the differences in peak figures.

Something people in the know and developers have been saying since before we knew what we were getting. The same people saying the difference between the two is remarkably close.

Closer than 360 and PS3 were, with even less wildcards I'd imagine as the architecture is so much more similar.

Buy for the games, controllers, friends etc. The only things that actually matter and have any real difference.

You say this now, but wait until everyone finds out about the secret GPU in the power brick. You won't have VR goggles on your face like you do on your avatar pic, but instead you'll have egg on your face and you'll really be shitting bricks then, pal. BWAHAHAHAAH!





On a more serious note, though. Haven't Cerny and company tried to address the compute unit occupancy problem with their custom cache scrubbers and coherency engine? Do you think they have an idea on how much more "occupancy" they've gained? They must have tested this out against a standard RDNA2 chip. I wonder if it their 36CU chip punches above its weight enough to compete with a 40-something RDNA2 chip. Just spitballing.

 

[sircaw]

Question, Does Craig have a cousin>??

31 seconds in

 

[MrS]

So, some bad news this week regarding Xbox. So, some bad PS5 rumor on the way to balance things out?

Nothing stops this train. Ratchet demo is just the beginning. Sept 9th is just around the corner.

 

[Imtjnotu]

I

Well that's true. Surfaces cost a bomb. For me you feel like you're paying for the innovation of the Surface brand's devices. For me that's what they do, carve out new product categories or implement power usage in a consumption form factor.

In terms of Xbox, I'm sure even an expensive XB would be more well received if you could see an earnest effort to push the device's feature set, or the games into new/better areas.

I have a pro 4 and had the x for a little while. Love them both but I just wish everyone stopped trying to price out their items like apple

 

[MasterCornholio]

So, some bad news this week regarding Xbox. So, some bad PS5 rumor on the way to balance things out?

I don't know maybe Dusk will say something.

 

[HAL-01]

The effect on the left doesn't make sense as a reflection because of the angle.

Yeah reflection on left wont happe in RL, so also not in RT. It was bug or it wasnt RT then.

It was raytracing and physically accurate. The view angle causes a distorted upside-down view of the street below. here's a quick sketch

They most likely removed it cause RT wasn't playing nice with the alpha effects of the portal, causing them to pop-in after ratchet gets out. They're probably working it out

 

[Neo Blaster]

well this is always worth recalling when we wonder about Xbox leadership.

'we will start over'

Always priceless!!

 

[Neo Blaster]

Hmm that a lot of PS5 games have "performance" modes actually says a lot about the system. It isn't able to properly manage native 4K/60fps with amazing graphics, something has to give. Wonder if we'll see the same for XSX, although those first party developers might have to go for 60fps from the start.

Good that they included both options though.

Show me how many games run on native 4k@60fps with RT on a 2080Ti.

 

[Mahavastu]

Hmm that a lot of PS5 games have "performance" modes actually says a lot about the system. It isn't able to properly manage native 4K/60fps with amazing graphics, something has to give.

No matter how fast your system is, if you give it twice the amount of time per pixel (e.g. by reducing the resolution to 1440p or going to 30fps instead of 60), the imagequality should increase.

Wonder if we'll see the same for XSX, although those first party developers might have to go for 60fps from the start.

We'll have to see.
Sometimes I have the feeling that the XBox higher ups have a fetish for higher fps, even if they could produce a better game with 30fps. Having the option to choose is of course the best solution.

 

[Neo Blaster]

Why do you try so hard to hate?
What have we seen running on the Series X?

Here, I fixed for you

 

[Empire Strikes Back]

It was raytracing and physically accurate. The view angle causes a distorted upside-down view of the street below. here's a quick sketch

They most likely removed it cause RT wasn't playing nice with the alpha effects of the portal, causing them to pop-in after ratchet gets out. They're probably working it out

You sketch is accurate but I got the impression that those roads are below the slope's end, so they wouldn't reflect. Maybe I'm just lacking perspective.

 

[ethomaz]

So, some bad news this week regarding Xbox. So, some bad PS5 rumor on the way to balance things out?

It is obvious they have some Ace bad news on sleeves.

 

[T-Cake]

It's all about making right choices for yourself at the moment. Being blinded by one brand will never work for longer periods of time.

Nice point and that is why I'm considering XSX more than PS5 at this juncture. Game Pass and more robust BC is what is swinging it.

 

[Moridianae]

'we will start over'

Always priceless!!

Looking back on this, it really is astounding a testament to Microsoft's sheer tenacity that they were able to turn around as much as they did.

I remember watching this in 2013 live. I had never seen a company get so publicly humiliated and never since. Sony absolutely smashed them into the pavement.

Anybody remember Donny Matrick's "Well if you don't like it we have 360" gem? Ugh.

How they were able to recover as much as they *did* is nothing short of a miracle, honestly.

 

[Dave_at_Home]

It was raytracing and physically accurate. The view angle causes a distorted upside-down view of the street below. here's a quick sketch

They most likely removed it cause RT wasn't playing nice with the alpha effects of the portal, causing them to pop-in after ratchet gets out. They're probably working it out

Did you bring this to your mom to be put on the fridge?

Just kidding

 

[Red_Driver85]

It was raytracing and physically accurate. The view angle causes a distorted upside-down view of the street below. here's a quick sketch

They most likely removed it cause RT wasn't playing nice with the alpha effects of the portal, causing them to pop-in after ratchet gets out. They're probably working it out

Your image is incorrect. In the game, it looks completely different. The slope on which the Lombax descends is much higher and at a different, not so steep angle. There should be no such reflections.

 

[saintjules]

Remember those "Sony silence is alarming, MS marketing is awesome"

Now when the facts catch up it's:

MS were bushing all buttons at the same time while Sony just pushed up dpad and wait to see what happens then hit in the right moment.

Man, I have a feeling Microsoft is behind something, telling all the Xbox guys to say negative things to then push out something massive...But anyway, I was saying before the May showcase, Microsoft was at a strong start. Showing the Console at TGA and then having Austin and DF come down to see the hardware. That was refreshing to see a Console revealed and shown off early on. Those two showcases unfortunately pushed them down a bit.

But hey, it's a long 6-7+ year span. I'm sure eventually things will level out...Maybe.

 

[Dave_at_Home]

Looking back on this, it really is astounding a testament to Microsoft's sheer tenacity that they were able to turn around as much as they did.

I remember watching this in 2013 live. I had never seen a company get so publicly humiliated and never since. Sony absolutely smashed them into the pavement.

Anybody remember Donny Matrick's "Well if you don't like it we have 360" gem? Ugh.

How they were able to recover as much as they *did* is nothing short of a miracle, honestly.

I find it more of a miracle that, despite all that went down, the PS3 managed to move more units in total lifetime sales versus 360.

 

[Serviam]

You need to ask the twiiter guy... he said real gamers buy both consoles I just disagreed and said most real gamers buys one console.

PS4: 110m
XB1: 50m

Do you think real gamers buys both consoles? Because actual data shows the opposite... probably not even 20% of that userbase has both consoles.... and I'm being heavy generous (20% is 32m... almost 3/4 of the XB1 userbase).

As I already wrote, yes I think a real gamer buys all consoles. That is just my opinion, you are welcome to have another opinion.

Since I was old enough to save enough money I've always bought every console. From NES and onward. I still own them all and have them connected downstairs in the man/parent cave.

Anyway enough off topic from me.

When is that teardown of the PS5 coming Sony?

 

[NEbeast]

I'm interested in INSTANTANEOUS LOADING for Destiny 2 menus. There's NO excuse for the menu not to be resident in RAM or be streamed at the blink of an eye.

Please. I'm done with D2 for now, nothing left till BL launches. I still remember trying to pop a ammo synth in D1, it's going to be glorious on next gen.

 

[Neo Blaster]

Yes, Sony just showed some gameplay, which is what video game consoles do... play games

To be fair to MS they did show us gameplay too... but... well... we know how that went.

Not entirely bad, we've got the best gaming meme in years with Craig.

 

[ethomaz]

As I already wrote, yes I think a real gamer buys all consoles. That is just my opinion, you are welcome to have another opinion.

Since I was old enough to save enough money I've always bought every console. From NES and onward. I still own them all and have them connected downstairs in the man/parent cave.

Anyway enough off topic from me.

When is that teardown of the PS5 coming Sony?

So 80% of the gamers that buys one console are not real gamers? lol
Maybe do you think collectors are real gamers too lol

That is the same way preconceptions are spread.

The number of consoles you buy doesn't say anything about being a real gamer or not... probably says more about being rich or indebted than real gamer.

 

[Entroyp]

Not entirely bad, we've got the best gaming meme in years with Craig.

Can't argue with that

 

[kyliethicc]

When is that teardown of the PS5 coming Sony?

Probably November.

 

[Sinthor]

I believe he is talking more about the abstraction layers that indeed MS needs to work way more than Sony because Sony API is more direct calls to hardware while MS API (DirectX) has a series of abstractions yo works in all platforms available including Xbox One to Xbox Series X hardware.

So the amount of work MS needs to put in software is exponentially bigger than what Sony needs.

Well, maybe THAT's the reason that developers at least APPEAR to be a bit behind the curve and don't have things to show actually running on XSX? I still think that Microsoft had initially decided not to do hardware anymore and then reversed course, which is what put them behind the curve initially. But regardless, if there is more "fiddling" needed on the software, driver and tools side then that could put development efforts behind EVEN WITH the final hardware being in production, right? I mean we had heard a few months ago that Velocity architecture was undergoing some re-work. If that was true, again it was too late on the hardware side as production had begun, but is just fine from the software perspective. Hmmm....

 

[Dave_at_Home]

It is obvious they have some Ace bad news on sleeves.

WELL THAN

I heard from one of my many sources that Sony is just repurposing old PS3 hardware, and that Ratchet and Clank demo was running off dual Sega Saturns.

 

[Lunatic_Gamer]

The R&C praise continues.

 

[jose4gg]

So real gaming is buying two consoles that both require payment to play online... Being a real gamer is very similar to being rich...

 

[saintjules]

Timestamped this bit, but the whole section starts at 14:30.

 

[HAL-01]

You sketch is accurate but I got the impression that those roads are below the slope's end, so they wouldn't reflect. Maybe I'm just lacking perspective.

Yeah in the game the streets are further away. The point is the reflection vector points downwards, and so no matter if it's below the slope, it will still reflect it as long as the building itself doesn't occlude it.

 

[Neo Blaster]

2) They know Microsoft has something impressive and they are pressuring them to show it.

I don't bite this theory at all, MS just came out from one of their biggest blunders but somehow they prefer to hide their cards with two months left for launch?

This is the time they should hit all cylinders to gain mind share, something they've just (mis)managed to loose since December. What's left, Lockart? Big Gamepass announcement?

 

[Insane Metal]

Just watched the R&C extended gameplay.

I'm not into R&C but dude that looks insane. So much stuff happening at the same time. So many particlessssss. Particles: the game. Nice.

 

[AeneaGames]

Define "real gamer".
A real gamer in my eyes own all consoles and a PC.

That's silly. If a 'real gamer' from your definition suddenly loses their job and has to sell most consoles and their 5k costing gaming pc they suddenly are not a real gamer any more?

To me just being interested in all gaming devices and willing to try any genre is a real gamer.

 

[Serviam]

So 80% of the gamers that buys one console are not real gamers? lol
Maybe do you think collectors are real gamers too lol

That is the same way preconceptions are spread.

The number is consoles you buy doesn't say anything about being a real gamer or not... probably says more about being rich or indebted than real gamer.

Not continuing this discussion since it has nothing to do with the OT.

Let's just agree to disagree
No need to be loling about. Cheer up it's Friday ffs.

 

[Neo Blaster]

Last night's scars run deep.

Don't worry, next week i am sure we will get something, or the week after, or the week after that.

When will this madness end.

Damn, I'm suffering from 'megaton event' abstinence for a long time, and I think Sony is the only one who can provide me a good fix. Maybe September 9th with that COD MP reveal(25th PS1 anniversary on USA too)?

 

[ethomaz]

That's silly. If a 'real gamer' from your definition suddenly loses their job and has to sell most consoles and their 5k costing gaming pc they suddenly are not a real gamer any more?

To me just being interested in all gaming devices and willing to try any genre is a real gamer.

He is just confusing a console collector with real gamer.

A real gamer play games no matter where he is playing it... and yes I believe there is real gamers with people that only play on mobile too.

 

[Three Jackdaws]

I don't bite this theory at all, MS just came out from one of their biggest blunders but somehow they prefer to hide their cards with two months left for launch?

This is the time they should hit all cylinders to gain mind share, something they've just (mis)managed to loose since December. What's left, Lockart? Big Gamepass announcement?

I'm not buying this as well, if Microsoft had something they thought was a mic-drop moment and worthy to show they would have done it by now, especially with all the negative news surrounding the console right now.

Maybe they're playing chicken with Sony? Maybe. I few insiders who are usually reliable mentioned there was supposed to be a PS5 event at the end of August or start of September but we have not heard anything yet. I do remember HeisenbergFX4 mentioning that Sony wants to "bleed Microsoft out" (dam I get chills typing that). So it seems Sony are waiting for Microsoft to make their move so they can counter it. But heck we have not even seen Lockhart yet. Crazy to think we might be less then 90 days away from the launch of the next-gen consoles. This year has been weird man.

 

[IntentionalPun]

Just watched the R&C extended gameplay.

I'm not into R&C but dude that looks insane. So much stuff happening at the same time. So many particlessssss. Particles: the game. Nice.

Yeah I'm in the same boat.

I'll probably buy it though lol, console launches are sparse.

I'm technically impressed but the game just looks hectic for the sake of being hectic to me while the gameplay itself I've seen is just a simple shoot and dodge-fest.. I feel like I'm missing something watching this and thinking it looks all that fun.. but I'll try it, because I wanna see the purdy graphics.

 

[BlueXImpulse]

The R&C praise continues.

Good. NXGamer agrees that the building reflection is more accurate in the new build, as I thought

 

[ethomaz]

Yeah I'm in the same boat.

I'll probably buy it though lol, console launches are sparse.

I'm in another thinking already... it is the perfect game to introduce games to my son in 2-3 years... so I will buy it.

 

[sircaw]

Damn, I'm suffering from 'megaton event' abstinence for a long time, and I think Sony is the only one who can provide me a good fix. Maybe September 9th with that COD MP reveal(25th PS1 anniversary on USA too)?

I am setting September the ninth as my last day of tolerance.

If i am not totally satisfied or fulfilled by or on that day, its no more Mr FISH guy.

I have my targets, they reside in this Forum.

The day of judgment is coming. YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE. TICK TOCK.

 

[Sinthor]

Man, I have a feeling Microsoft is behind something, telling all the Xbox guys to say negative things to then push out something massive...But anyway, I was saying before the May showcase, Microsoft was at a strong start. Showing the Console at TGA and then having Austin and DF come down to see the hardware. That was refreshing to see a Console revealed and shown off early on. Those two showcases unfortunately pushed them down a bit.

But hey, it's a long 6-7+ year span. I'm sure eventually things will level out...Maybe.

XSX will have impressive titles to show at least by 2021-22 as the first party studios begin to release game. Those will show the power of the machine and look great. So they will be "fine" that way. However, they are off to a bad start that it is more than likely (in my opinion) to affect them negatively from a sales point of view. But look, MS is focused on 'Xbox as a platform.' Being able to run your games on your new XSX and the kids being able to run the same game on the XB1 you handed down to them, plus being able to play that same game in the office on your tablet or phone, is a very cool thing as a gamer. That is their strategy and NOT trying to ensure that XSX outsells the PS5. Of course, that would be great for them if it happened, but it's not their focus. They are hoping to sell gamers on that vision of buying one game to run on multiple platforms and want to cash in on a massive subscription model as a result.

Look, Sony is the market leader by a mile in hardware sales and software sales. MS knows this and knows the chance that they can unseat Sony in the hardware game is slim. Not meaning that they can't compete with hardware- they can- the XSX is a very powerful and well designed piece of hardware. There is more to market success than having powerful, well designed hardware. Microsoft's strength is platforms and software. So they are gravitating to their strengths. You can bet that if GamePass starts printing money for them, you will find Microsoft GamePass on many different devices, even Playstation eventually. Of course, if that were to happen, MS would likely not be making gaming consoles anymore either. So that is a long ways off even if it DOES happen that way.

Bottom line, Xbox fans will have great looking games to play on the XSX, it is just going to take a bit of patience as MS is delayed with those games. Meanwhile, there will be strong showings from 3rd party games. They just have to hang in there for a bit.

 

[Thirty7ven]

The Medium Gameplay Dev Walkthrough - Experience Horror In Two Worlds At the Same Time



So far the only XSX game that has me excited somewhat.

It's incredibly gimmicky and there's nothing happening or being said that makes me excited.

The visuals are also underwhelming but it's a "small" game so that doesn't bother me much.

 

[Imtjnotu]

You do realise that, now, because of your "joke", we'll soon see reports that ds5's haptic feedback systems is a major power hog that will hold ps5's games back, right?

Spoiler

/jk

gaf>>>>internet>>>>gaf

 

[Insane Metal]

Just my two cents. I think both Microsoft and Sony will postpone their console releases as much as possible this year to be able to have the most units available at launch. Well, Sony at least, they know they'll sell all the units they have.

 

[BadBreathOfTheWild]

I believe he is talking more about the abstraction layers that indeed MS needs to work way more than Sony because Sony API is more direct calls to hardware while MS API (DirectX) has a series of abstractions yo works in all platforms available including Xbox One to Xbox Series X hardware.

So the amount of work MS needs to put in software is exponentially bigger than what Sony needs.

This discussion was about ease of use from a developer perspective. Everything you wrote about abstraction is what I already mentioned as being why Xbox shouldn't be harder to program for for storage operations.

 

[JTCx]

I'm not into R&C

What was that?

 

[Killer Sakoman]

I don't bite this theory at all, MS just came out from one of their biggest blunders but somehow they prefer to hide their cards with two months left for launch?

This is the time they should hit all cylinders to gain mind share, something they've just (mis)managed to loose since December. What's left, Lockart? Big Gamepass announcement?

Yeah
This is just one of two theories. I lean more toward number 1. It's more like a domino effect. One of them got pissed off really hard and ignited the feelings of the others. If Microsoft continues this path, expect these guys to finally follow MBG.