Support NeoGAF

[Sabotage]

Evil and death must be grateful to God. Those concepts wouldn't even exist if it wasn't for Him.

I'd lean more towards them being fearful since God can "overturn" them

Evil and death are caused especially by people with power who believe in god. So without the idea of believing in god, what would change?

To my point - nothing would change "without the idea of believing in God", evil and death would still win.

 

[funkygunther]

To my point - nothing would change "without the idea of believing in God", evil and death would still win.

Without believing in God the idea of evil and death winning does not exist.

 

[Sabotage]

Without believing in God the idea of evil and death winning does not exist.

The idea of evil and death winning need not necessitate a belief in God.

 

[funkygunther]

The idea of evil and death winning need not necessitate a belief in God.

Absolutely does in your context, they are all reliant on each other.

 

[SF Kosmo]

Hey man, happy to discuss this with you!

Thank you for listing your background and giving context.

So, I will simply state an example of what I can relate it with.

What if you were a perfect human (of course, Christians would say no human can be without sin, but lets just pretend for argument), and you created a child. You were a perfect parent, but you child still ended up being a person who committed atrocious acts.

Does that make you imperfect, because what you created disappointed you?

God created us with free will upon design, from a Christian POV. That free will left a window for sin, by design. I still don't see how that negates His perfection?

I look forward to your response! Hope you have a great night dude!

That's not what I mean though. What I mean is that God himself seems to have vastly different values and behaves in vastly different ways in the Old and New Testament.

Like where is this God that feels the need to constantly kill people for doing things he doesn't like? Who micromanages mankind down to messing with individuals. We don't see that in the New Testament or in real life.

 

[*Nightwing]

Disappointed in this thread reaching 16 pages already… it's a black eye on this site… the so called dumpster fire of free thinkers wasting time arguing metaphysics that by definition cannot be proven and thus remains metaphysical and we are at the same place as we started on page 1… one group of believers trying to convince a opposing set of believers to join thier opinion

Circular argument the thread


If anyone is searching for more in thier soul, if your life is missing meaningfulness…. I invite you to join us in a real thread of philosophical debate that will surely shape the future of humanity, and all you need to do is sit back, simp, and be nice to our octopi friends:

https://www.neogaf.com/threads/gamer-boy-belle-delphine-ft-twomad.1638453/

 

[Wildebeest]

no what this means is any kind of evidence you can point to that being decent is based on hope, was expecting at least some observation of inherent selfishness to bolster your opinion

I don't by necessity say that being decent must be based on hope. There could, for example, be someone who can only do what a computer tells him to do otherwise something awful would happen to him, and that computer tells him to do only things which a sophisticated database says are the most decent options. He could be living in that sort of nightmare, with me unaware of his situation, and I could still hope that he would continue to do act somewhat decently in the future. But perhaps he will try to break free of the system and run amok.

 

[kurisu_1974]

Disappointed in this thread reaching 16 pages already… it's a black eye on this site… the so called dumpster fire of free thinkers wasting time arguing metaphysics that by definition cannot be proven and thus remains metaphysical and we are at the same place as we started on page 1… one group of believers trying to convince a opposing set of believers to join thier opinion

Circular argument the thread

I feel like you either haven't read or haven't understood a single post though. But yes it is what the "believers" are trying to spin it to hoping to gain at least equal footing instead of just grasping at straws and loosely defined sets of ideas.

Also the "opposing group" is very aware of the circular nature of whatever arguments religious apologists put up, but thanks for adding nothing.

 

[Blade2.0]

All I will say to your extreme example is that everybody should dislike that viewpoint if they have a modicum of moral decency. Christian speaking, slaves are a no-no.

But what is your solution to "intolerance" as defined by you? Violence? Education camps?

It's a slippery slope with scary implications. Who defines what is "intolerance" today and tomorrow, and what should happen with them?

Hope your night is still going well!

I define intolerance as something that is harmful to others but is still done to them. Women will die from this abortion ban, make no mistake about that. So no, I have no tolerance for an ideology that will sentence people to death.

 

[*Nightwing]

I feel like you either haven't read or haven't understood a single post though.

Feelings are not facts. If you use facts to make an argument or debate, you won't have 16 pages of circular argument's that go nowhere.

That is my contribution to this thread. To point out the uselessness of it all. At least masturbation release's dopamine and has some intrinsic value to one person. This thread isn't even as useful as masturbation… but this other thread on the other hand: https://www.neogaf.com/threads/gamer-boy-belle-delphine-ft-twomad.1638453/

 

[Big-G]

An atheist worldview is not necessarily a cold and empty one. On the contrary, it can be a very deep and fulfilling one. How did you come to that conclusion?

As an atheist, I view life as precious and a beautiful thing. The world is not cold and depressing overall, that is too simplistic of thinking imo. Sure there are plenty of things about nature or human behavior that is depressing, but there is plenty to celebrate and hold dear within nature and life.

 

[Dr. Claus]

I feel like you either haven't read or haven't understood a single post though. But yes it is what the "believers" are trying to spin it to hoping to gain at least equal footing instead of just grasping at straws and loosely defined sets of ideas.

Also the "opposing group" is very aware of the circular nature of whatever arguments religious apologists put up, but thanks for adding nothing.

It is clear to most that there are two groups of believers. Many of the devout "Atheists" in this thread (not all, by any means so don't try to disingenuously spin that) are as regressive and mindless as the majority of the devout "religious" in this thread (again, not all).

Its two groups trying desperately to show how "smart" they are, when in reality they are just making themselves look like ignorant children.

 

[kurisu_1974]

It is clear to most that there are two groups of believers. Many of the devout "Atheists" in this thread (not all, by any means so don't try to disingenuously spin that) are as regressive and mindless as the majority of the devout "religious" in this thread (again, not all).

Its two groups trying desperately to show how "smart" they are, when in reality they are just making themselves look like ignorant children.

Most being the 80% from the thread title?

 

[TheDreadBaron]

It is clear to most that there are two groups of believers. Many of the devout "Atheists" in this thread (not all, by any means so don't try to disingenuously spin that) are as regressive and mindless as the majority of the devout "religious" in this thread (again, not all).

Its two groups trying desperately to show how "smart" they are, when in reality they are just making themselves look like ignorant children.

OP: Christians are the majority, this bogus stat proves it!

Atheists: None of this makes a lick of sense and I can defend my position.

You: You see? Atheism is like its own religion!

Me:

 

[Dr. Claus]

Most being the 80% from the thread title?

OP: Christians are the majority, this bogus stat proves it!

Atheists: None of this makes a lick of sense and I can defend my position.

You: You see? Atheism is like its own religion!

Me:

Thanks for proving my point.

 

[Blade2.0]

Disappointed in this thread reaching 16 pages already… it's a black eye on this site… the so called dumpster fire of free thinkers wasting time arguing metaphysics that by definition cannot be proven and thus remains metaphysical and we are at the same place as we started on page 1… one group of believers trying to convince a opposing set of believers to join thier opinion

Circular argument the thread


If anyone is searching for more in thier soul, if your life is missing meaningfulness…. I invite you to join us in a real thread of philosophical debate that will surely shape the future of humanity, and all you need to do is sit back, simp, and be nice to our octopi friends:

http://[URL]https://www.neogaf.com/threads/gamer-boy-belle-delphine-ft-twomad.1638453/

[/URL]

Sorry but you're wrong. Belief in Christianity has dropped. Do you think it just happened by happenstance? Just because the people in the argument are not changing their minds, doesn't mean a lurker who is on the edge cannot read our thoughts and change their minds. Overturning long held traditions isn't going to just happen overnight.

 

[93xfan]

I'm not saying that at all. How many have had a sudden "religious awakening" as opposed to just being fed the doctrine since a young age?

Many people I've met have become Christians later in life. Some with stories of giving up drugs and prostitution. Others with less dramatic stories that simply accepted Christ into their hearts and had an immediate change. Are these the people you're talking about? Because there are many, many of them.

DM me.

Or you could just Google "religion and schizophrenia" and see for yourself because this kind of stuff is free and open and not hidden behind a proselytist's pay wall.

"religion?" We've been talking Christianity. "Religion" can mean so many things.

Regardless, are you suggesting the majority of new believers in Christ are schizophrenic?

 

[funkygunther]

"religion?" We've been talking Christianity. "Religion" can mean so many things.

Regardless, are you suggesting the majority of new believers in Christ are schizophrenic?

it will all make sense when you take the first step, follow my advice and go to Google

 

[kurisu_1974]

Many people I've met have become Christians later in life. Some with stories of giving up drugs and prostitution. Others with less dramatic stories that simply accepted Christ into their hearts and had an immediate change. Are these the people you're talking about? Because there are many, many of them.

How does that work for people that are not familiar with or have never heard of Christianity?

 

[93xfan]

it will all make sense when you take the first step, follow my advice and go to Google

I actually did and found nothing of use. I'll give you a chance to make a point.

Telling people to google things and and do research on what you want them to is not as enticing as you think. You also didn't address what I said about Christianity vs religion and the problem with conflating the two

How does that work for people that are not familiar with or have never heard of Christianity?

It doesn't seem that you're answering my question. It sounds like you're now not saying that people who come to faith are crazy. Is that correct?

 

[funkygunther]

I actually did and found nothing of use. I'll give you a chance to make a point.

Telling people to google things and and do research on what you want them to is not as enticing as you think. You also didn't address what I said about Christianity vs religion and the problem with conflating the two

of course you didn't find anything of use, that's why it's futile to discuss...it's not meant to be enticing, you've proven yourself unreliable by hiding your God evidence so I am looking for some proof that you are able to engage in good faith on your side, telling me what studies you found would be a good start

also it's you conflating the two, proving again how unreliable you are:

If I had a religious experience when not on acid I'd have my head checked. There's a lot of research that points to these experiences not being very different from a psychosis or even schizophrenia.

I'd like to see that research.

 

[93xfan]

Sorry but you're wrong. Belief in Christianity has dropped. Do you think it just happened by happenstance? Just because the people in the argument are not changing their minds, doesn't mean a lurker who is on the edge cannot read our thoughts and change their minds. Overturning long held traditions isn't going to just happen overnight.

Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first
2 Thessalonians 2:3

Apostasy, or falling away from the faith is happening as it was predicted. This is not an unexpected thing for us Christians, nor do we believe it means that Christianity is disappearing from the world. But even during these times, there are new people who come to faith.

 

[kurisu_1974]

I actually did and found nothing of use. I'll give you a chance to make a point.

Telling people to google things and and do research on what you want them to is not as enticing as you think. You also didn't address what I said about Christianity vs religion and the problem with conflating the two

It doesn't seem that you're answering my question. It sounds like you're now not saying that people who come to faith are crazy. Is that correct?

I was actually talking about two groups of people, if you read my previous post. My additional question was aimed at your reaction against my remark about the group that grew up with the doctrine or in its sphere and never looked further. But the group with sudden out of nowhere deeply religious awakenings? Yeah I don't think we are allowed to use the word crazy anymore right?

 

[93xfan]

of course you didn't find anything of use, that's why it's futile to discuss...it's not meant to be enticing, you've proven yourself unreliable by hiding your God evidence so I am looking for some proof that you are able to engage in good faith on your side, telling me what studies you found would be a good start

also it's you conflating the two, proving again how unreliable you are:

Kurisu seemed to be discussing Christianity with the rest of us. I could be wrong. Regardless, a Google search doesn't have the context of this thread and what we are talking about.

You on the other hand aren't telling me your position or even what to look for. You're just telling me to Google something as vague as religion and schizophrenia. These sources won't have the proper context.

 

[93xfan]

I was actually talking about two groups of people, if you read my previous post. My additional question was aimed at your reaction against my remark about the group that grew up with the doctrine or in its sphere and never looked further. But then group with sudden out of nowhere deeply religious awakenings? Yeah I don't think we are allowed to use the word crazy anymore right?

Gotcha. Sorry I mistook your meaning. My fault.

 

[Blade2.0]

Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first
2 Thessalonians 2:3

Apostasy, or falling away from the faith is happening as it was predicted. This is not an unexpected thing for us Christians, nor do we believe it means that Christianity is disappearing from the world. But even during these times, there are new people who come to faith.

Cool man.

 

[lukilladog]

Jesus says, "The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed; nor will they say, 'Look, here it is!' or, 'There it is!' For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst."
Luke 17:20-21

When Jesus returns, it will be something that can be observed. About Jesus's return, he says;

"And there will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth distress of nations in perplexity because of the roaring of the sea and the waves, people fainting with fear and with foreboding of what is coming on the world. For the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. Now when these things begin to take place, straighten up and raise your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."
Luke 21:25-28

Are you trying to debunk Jesus himself?, because his prophecies are very clear in the language, he said to some people they would see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom before they reached death, or watch the stars falling from heaven and Jesus coming in the clouds with power and glory, something he said all tribes of the earth would witness before that generation passed away.

 

[lukilladog]

It does and the crazy thing is science now confirms [it's possibility]. What do I mean?



edited

I meant scripture as in the jewish bible or old testament. As for the end of the Universe, beginning of the universe, I´m skeptic. The only religious statements about the Universe and eschatology I find powerful is the age of the earth in hinduism, 4.3 billion years (very close to the 4.5 in modern science) and it´s cycles within Brahma's life.

 

[lukilladog]

For me personally?

Moments I have felt a miracle occurred. Moments prayers have been answered. Walking through scripture that applies to something in my life currently. A belief in the path. How happy I am when I focus on my faith compared to when I am away from it. The way it inspires me to live better, to do better for others.

A broader answer? An ancient text that we believe has structured society and our world, that has remained in tact (I realize this is debatable by some) through many generations. The story of our beginnings.

I understand it would sound like noise to an non believer, and I accept that. Still wish nothing but respect, and love!

Not trying to run, but it has indeed been a taxing day for me. Take it easy man! Sorry if my answers aren't good enough or annoy you. I am being as genuine as I feel I can be.

Perfect example of confirmation bias, no offense but people used to pray all day long for people suffering diseases like ketoacidosis for example, which until the 1920´s used to kill almost everybody... but now everybody that gets the treatment on time, walks away, no pray required.

And it´s just sad how christians in general dismiss the intellectualism, morals, and ethics of Ancient egypt, middle east, India, China, Roman, and Greek cultures from which bible writers borrowed almost everything.

 

[poppabk]

Disappointed in this thread reaching 16 pages already… it's a black eye on this site… the so called dumpster fire of free thinkers wasting time arguing metaphysics that by definition cannot be proven and thus remains metaphysical and we are at the same place as we started on page 1… one group of believers trying to convince a opposing set of believers to join thier opinion

Circular argument the thread


If anyone is searching for more in thier soul, if your life is missing meaningfulness…. I invite you to join us in a real thread of philosophical debate that will surely shape the future of humanity, and all you need to do is sit back, simp, and be nice to our octopi friends:

https://www.neogaf.com/threads/gamer-boy-belle-delphine-ft-twomad.1638453/

And just like that we have proof there is no god.

 

[Chaplain]

And why should any of that result in eternal suffering and torment from a supposedly just God? Justice only requires punishment proportional to the crime. Eternal damnation is therefore unjust by definition as it's an infinite punishment for finite crimes. You can't imagine a single act of cruelty a human is capable of that's anywhere close.

Good question. The reason why suffering and torment are eternal is God honors a person's free moral agency and will not compel anyone to be with the source of Life if they do not want Him. However, God does offer each person forgiveness through his Son Jesus (He is our substitute) if we trust Him what He did on our behalf.

"Most people, most of the time, have something which hangs heavy on their hearts, something they have done or said which they wish they hadn't, something which haunts them and makes them afraid of being found out. How wonderful to know that the sacrifice of Jesus and the sprinkled blood which results from it has the power as we accept it in faith and trust, to wash every stain from the conscience so that we can come to God without any shadow falling across our relationship." (New Testament scholar NT Wright).

Whether we have been intentionally rebellious or not, God continues to provide a way of escape (His rescue operation) if we admit our faults (say we are sorry) and trust in Christ, that Jesus paid our debt on our behalf (this is the Good News, the claim by Jesus' followers).

"Scripture sees hell as self-chosen … Hell appears as God's gesture of respect for human choice. All receive what they actually chose, either to be with God forever, worshipping him, or without God forever, worshipping themselves." (Theologian J.I. Packer)

Now, from our finite perspective, it does seem unjust but there might be more to this than we can presently comprehend.

"The traditional doctrine of hell seems terrible to our modern ears because it is out of step with our modern intuitions about how God should behave. But our intuitions about these matters are hardly a reliable guide, given what Scripture says about the noetic effects of sin. To put it another way, the fact that an infinite punishment for sin seems an appalling, even disproportionate, punishment to contemporary human beings does not necessarily mean it is an appalling, disproportionate punishment. It may be that this is simply testimony to our failure to take with sufficient seriousness the idea of sinning against a being of infinite beauty and value." (Theologian Oliver D. Crisp)

Also, I think an error that tends to be made is that we fail to understand, forget, or reject is that the Bible's authors claim we live in a moral universe created by a moral God.

"Sin matters. If my sin doesn't matter, then I don't matter in the end. If your child is murdered and the law does not bother to arrest, try, and sentence the perpetrator, the law is saying, in effect, that your child does not matter. The courts cannot "just let it go". Such an attitude would spell the end of all morality and all hope of justice. It would inevitably lead to anarchy. So, if the legal system were to adopt the view that [Richard] Dawkins seems to think God should take, it would be an offence to our moral conscience. But God will never accept that our lies, greed, theft, adultery, violence, murder, etc. do not matter. He takes our sin seriously, not because he hates us but because he loves us. His universe is a moral universe; and as its supreme moral governor he, a holy and perfect God, must deal justly with human sin." (Oxford professor John Lennox)

I hope you give yourself some time to process what I shared. ^_^

edited

 

[EviLore]

You're not going to convert the faithful to disbelief through rational arguments, or bring rational atheists to God by expressing your faith. That being said, it can be useful to articulate your position and synthesize cogent arguments. Futile as the thread is, it's still been an interesting read and I'm glad it has stayed mostly civil over 16 pages.

 

[Blade2.0]

You're not going to convert the faithful to disbelief through rational arguments, or bring rational atheists to God by expressing your faith. That being said, it can be useful to articulate your position and synthesize cogent arguments. Futile as the thread is, it's still been an interesting read and I'm glad it has stayed mostly civil over 16 pages.

I disagree. I grew up catholic and deconverted when I was in high school after reading things like The God Delusion and going to atheist sites like whywontgodhealamputees.com.
It obviously works sometimes because more people have stopped believing over time in the states. If these arguments haven't deconverted anyone, then how is it happening?

 

[EviLore]

I disagree. I grew up catholic and deconverted when I was in high school after reading things like The God Delusion and going to atheist sites like whywontgodhealamputees.com.
It obviously works sometimes because more people have stopped believing over time in the states. If these arguments haven't deconverted anyone, then how is it happening?

Don't think we have many high schoolers here.

 

[*Nightwing]

You're not going to convert the faithful to disbelief through rational arguments, or bring rational atheists to God by expressing your faith. That being said, it can be useful to articulate your position and synthesize cogent arguments. Futile as the thread is, it's still been an interesting read and I'm glad it has stayed mostly civil over 16 pages.

Is not this entire thread about the metaphysical beliefs and it's percentages in the US? And being a discussion on metaphysics pointless as by definition unable to be proven. It can be disproven, but then that does not equal proving non existence.

The entire argument is futile. And in my opinion a 16 page exercise in both sides ignoring this fundamental fact and exercising the hubris in engaging in high level arguments while ignoring the basics just to stroke the ego of conversation is evidence of a lack of discourse and proof everyone is talking at each other instead of with each other.

 

[Blade2.0]

Don't think we have many high schoolers here.

Doesn't change anything. People are becoming less religious. Do you think it's just happening for no reason?

 

[poppabk]

Good question. The reason why suffering and torment are eternal is God honors a person's free moral agency and will not compel anyone to be with the source of Life if they do not want Him. However, God does offer each person forgiveness through his Son Jesus (He is our substitute) if we trust Him what He did on our behalf.

This is what always kept me from pursuing Christianity beyond being a social system. Free will. Would we have free will in heaven? If so then people would be sinning left and right and doing the same evil shit they do here. If not, then that doesn't sound like a place I want to be. If you have free will but somehow no-one sins anymore then why couldn't earth have been like that?

 

[I collect VHS tapes]

I wonder if people will ever grow tired of arguing god and religion in the Internet

 

[IFireflyl]

That's not what I mean though. What I mean is that God himself seems to have vastly different values and behaves in vastly different ways in the Old and New Testament.

Like where is this God that feels the need to constantly kill people for doing things he doesn't like? Who micromanages mankind down to messing with individuals. We don't see that in the New Testament or in real life.

God presents himself in two different ways (OT and NT) because there was a radical difference brought about by Jesus.

In the Old Testament God directly intervened. Not all of the time or in every situation, but God was preparing people for Jesus. In the New Testament God fulfilled the Old Testament law through Jesus' birth, life, and death as a sacrifice. This is what restored humanity's relationship with God for anyone who believes and seeks repentance and a relationship with God. In the Old Testament it was belief by sight because God revealed himself, but in the New Testament it is belief by faith (2 Corinthians 5:7 - for we walk by faith, not by sight) because God has already revealed everything that is needed until the second coming of Jesus.

Also, God didn't just willy-nilly kill people in the Old Testament. Everyone he killed or had killed was sinning (or committing crimes to put it in easy to understand terms). Besides, if you believe in God that means when someone dies there is an afterlife. That means that when God kills people he is just transitioning someone from the worldly life to the spiritual life. Whether that leads to an eternity of peace or an eternity of suffering is 100% up to the individual before God moves them. Once He moves them it is too late to change their mind.

 

[NeoIkaruGAF]

And just like that we have proof there is no god.

Religious morals at least wouldn't allow that to go public.
I blame Belle Delphine on the atheists.

I wonder if people will ever grow tired of arguing god and religion in the Internet

The internet's main use is to argue.
As practically pointless as this debate may be, it's still better than hundred of pages of people arguing if God (heh) of War is launching 2022 or 2023.

 

[FunkMiller]

The entire argument is futile. And in my opinion a 16 page exercise in both sides ignoring this fundamental fact and exercising the hubris in engaging in high level arguments while ignoring the basics just to stroke the ego of conversation is evidence of a lack of discourse and proof everyone is talking at each other instead of with each other.

Okay…. but why do you feel the need to even post this? You talk of ego stroking, but that's exactly what you're doing with these 'I'm above it all' posts.

Let people talk shit if they want to. You can post elsewhere. Forums are built for this stuff. Always have been, always will be.

 

[*Nightwing]

Okay…. but why do you feel the need to even post this? You talk of ego stroking, but that's exactly what you're doing with these 'I'm above it all' posts.

Because it's the same catch 22 that makes this entire thread a circular argument:

Forums are built for this stuff. Always have been, always will be.

Now we are back to point 1 again and as per course for the thread not one single idea I have presented has been discussed, but rather individuals try and guess my mental motives to try and discredit my person rather than discuss ideas.

And yes I am leaving it alone because my point has been proven repeatedly for historical preservation so you and the handful of religious or anti religious zealots can continue to parrot your talking points irrelevant of the discussion preceding you making for one of the most active threads currently on the forum being the exact display of internet mediocrity you talk about of people just sprouting thier opinions without engaging others in actual discussion

 

[FunkMiller]

Because it's the same catch 22 that makes this entire thread a circular argument:

Now we are back to point 1 again and as per course for the thread not one single idea I have presented has been discussed, but rather individuals try and guess my mental motives to try and discredit my person rather than discuss ideas.

And yes I am leaving it alone because my point has been proven repeatedly for historical preservation so you and the handful of religious or anti religious zealots can continue to parrot your talking points irrelevant of the discussion preceding you making for one of the most active threads currently on the forum being the exact display of internet mediocrity you talk about of people just sprouting thier opinions without engaging others in actual discussion

Good for you, champ!

 

[kurisu_1974]

Because it's the same catch 22 that makes this entire thread a circular argument:



Now we are back to point 1 again and as per course for the thread not one single idea I have presented has been discussed, but rather individuals try and guess my mental motives to try and discredit my person rather than discuss ideas.

And yes I am leaving it alone because my point has been proven repeatedly for historical preservation so you and the handful of religious or anti religious zealots can continue to parrot your talking points irrelevant of the discussion preceding you making for one of the most active threads currently on the forum being the exact display of internet mediocrity you talk about of people just sprouting thier opinions without engaging others in actual discussion

If your point is that you actually have nothing to contribute and not really a point of your own, then we gathered that from your first reply. Not sure why we needed additional comments from someone who hates this thread so much.

 

[It's all in the wrist]

To anyone saying this discussion is useless, you don't change minds in the span of one thread. I used to argue for Catholicism on forums in my youth (nintendophiles shout-out). I got tired of trying to warp my version of reality to fit the truth, when the simple answer was more than enough. You can spend hours doing it, and hours rebutting it.

It's very easy to draw your own conclusion from stories, and make them more profound than they really are. When you can't prove any of it, it simply isn't worth more than any other lesson. This becomes obvious when you see how people genuinely believe in so many different religions, and you try arguing with them.

 

[*Nightwing]

Good for you, champ!

If your point is that you actually have nothing to contribute and not really a point of your own, then we gathered that from your first reply. Not sure why we needed additional comments from someone who hates this thread so much.

Missed opportunity to ironically use:

I continue to be:

Be better than this man

 

[Jooxed]

I have been agnostic my whole life.. as I get older (36 now) I find myself searching for something to believe in. It's hard because I was brought up catholic and that did not click with me. Started going to a non denominational church once a week and It clicks a little more.

 

[Chaplain]

This is what always kept me from pursuing Christianity beyond being a social system. Free will. Would we have free will in heaven? If so then people would be sinning left and right and doing the same evil shit they do here. If not, then that doesn't sound like a place I want to be. If you have free will but somehow no-one sins anymore then why couldn't earth have been like that?

We will still be free moral agents but with bodies that lack "self genes" (Richard Dawkins) or are without fallen/sinful/broken nature (see Jesus after the resurrection).



edited

 

[It's all in the wrist]

We will still be free moral agents but with bodies that lack "self genes" (Richard Dawkins) or are without fallen/sinful/broken nature (see Jesus after the resurrection).



edited

Why use Dawkins here? I assume you're referring to the selfish gene?

 

[FunkMiller]

I have been agnostic my whole life.. as I get older (36 now) I find myself searching for something to believe in. It's hard because I was brought up catholic and that did not click with me. Started going to a non denominational church once a week and It clicks a little more.

Why do you feel this way?