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[Ozriel]

Where did Microsoft submit they were talking about "existing games" only?

On the other hand, Microsoft did make the EC believe that they won't be involved in either a full or partial foreclosure strategy (which includes non-existing games that were currently in development in Zenimax).

Ah yes. You cropped out the part where the EC says this conclusion is in line with their own independent market investigation. Or the sections in the article earlier where the EC repeatedly said that Zenimax games aren’t big enough to cause input foreclosure and that an exclusivity strategy would not impair competition in the EU.

So no, MS didn’t ‘trick’ them. They carried out their own independent study, considered a worse case scenario and decided even that wasn’t an issue. Precisely why they disputed the FTC’s attempt to claim they were deceived into approving the deal.

But the conversation you butted into was about what Phil Spencer himself said, not the EC discussions.

Their release strategy is fully aligned with what they said, back in 2020.

 

[ToadMan]

Instead of that jibberjabber why not show the console sales?

You only care about console sales - oh you’re in the wrong thread… or just off topic for fun maybe.

The “jibber jabber” is from the FTC court submission.

 

[Heisenberg007]

Ah yes. You cropped out the part where the EC says this conclusion is in line with their own independent market investigation. Or the sections in the article earlier where the EC repeatedly said that Zenimax games aren’t big enough to cause input foreclosure and that an exclusivity strategy would not impair competition in the EU.

So no, MS didn’t ‘trick’ them. They carried out their own independent study, considered a worse case scenario and decided even that wasn’t an issue. Precisely why they disputed the FTC’s attempt to claim they were deceived into approving the deal.

But the conversation you butted into was about what Phil Spencer himself said, not the EC discussions.

Their release strategy is fully aligned with what they said, back in 2020.

Don't share Phil's statements (which also doesn't say anything about existing games, by the way). Share where Microsoft submitted to regulators that only "existing games" will remain multiplatform.

 

[feynoob]

This thread needs some new material.

Even if we get some, we will go back to the same old materials.

 

[ToadMan]

Their release strategy is fully aligned with what they said, back in 2020.

It is. And thats why this acquisition is blocked now.

 

[ironmang]

You only care about console sales - oh you’re in the wrong thread… or just off topic for fun maybe.

The “jibber jabber” is from the FTC court submission.

Doesn't prove they aren't a distant 3rd.

Console sales is a better point of comparison than nothing which is what you posted.

 

[Astray]

If they could just divest the IP I'm sure they would. But they would also have to divest 5 studios.

Tough luck for them, just like it's tough luck for Sony if the deal passes and they lose COD.

 

[ToadMan]

Doesn't prove they aren't a distant 3rd.

Console sales is a better point of comparison than nothing which is what you posted.

No its not better, that’s why regulators are investigating far more widely.

MS are in no way distant third as the FTC points out using data from MS.

 

[ironmang]

No its not better, that’s why regulators are investigating far more widely.

MS are in no way distant third as the FTC points out using data from MS.

Regulators investigating a 70 billion dollar acquisition doesn't mean they aren't in distant third right now.

And if they are "no way" distant third then you must have your own rankings. Lets see it.

 

[Heisenberg007]

Regulators investigating a 70 billion dollar acquisition doesn't mean they aren't in distant third right now.

And if they are "no way" distant third then you must have your own rankings. Lets see it.

If we go by both SLCs that the CMA defined:

• Console sales in the UK market = they are behind Sony and Nintendo.
• Cloud gaming in the UK market = they are #1 with over 2/3rd of the market share.

So, overall, they aren't a distant 3rd.

 

[feynoob]

Cloud gaming in the UK market = they are #1 with over 2/3rd of the market share.

How are they ahead of Nvidia?
Total xcloud users was estimated at 10m, while GeForce was around 20+m.

 

[Thirty7ven]

They are not in distant third in the U.S, the biggest market, and they are not a distant third in the UK.

They are also not a distant third in either revenues and MAU according to MS.

Now that this is almost over, how do Xbox fans feel about ABK joining Xbox with behavioral remedies?

Aren’t any of you worried that it will stifle creation of new IP? Take away resources from some of the studios and maybe they’re shut down in the medium term? isn’t there a danger that MS will have even more devs working on COD than AB did?

 

[phil_t98]

If we go by both SLCs that the CMA defined:

• Console sales in the UK market = they are behind Sony and Nintendo.
• Cloud gaming in the UK market = they are #1 with over 2/3rd of the market share.

So, overall, they aren't a distant 3rd.

how big is the cloud gaming market in overall share of the gaming industry at the moment?

 

[ToadMan]

Regulators investigating a 70 billion dollar acquisition doesn't mean they aren't in distant third right now.

And if they are "no way" distant third then you must have your own rankings. Lets see it.

Already taken care of ...

"Microsoft Corporation, a global technology company that owns: (a) the Xbox gaming
console, (b) Game Pass, the fastest growing game subscription service, (c) xCloud, the largest
cloud gaming service, and (d) twenty-three game development studios that make some of the
world’s most popular games (including Halo and Minecraft), now proposes to acquire Activision
Blizzard, Inc., one of the most important publishers of video game content, for approximately
$70 billion"

 

[ToadMan]

how big is the cloud gaming market in overall share of the gaming industry at the moment?

Meta/Within ruling makes this question irrelevant....

 

[phil_t98]

Already taken care of ...

fastest growing means nothing if your already behind, how big in a percentage is the cloud gaming market at the moment?

they maybe top which I know they are but cloud gaming maybe 1% of the gaming market in total

 

[phil_t98]

Meta/Within ruling makes this question irrelevant....

its relevant in the fact you don't know how big that market is compared to traditional market

 

[The_Mike]

What does COD do that's so special?

- no other fps has the same amount of weapons, unlocks, skins etc.
-One of the few not relying on BR but actually has classic modes like Domination Ctf.
-has a fast and perfect response to your movements.
-some of the best maps.

That's what I got I can remember.
I really like cod and they literally have no rivals.
- Battlefield? Have never been close to cod. BF is a semi sim slow paced game, where cod is fast paced.
Also add to have ass bf2042 is.

- apex/pubg/fortnite are all BR. They arent like cod at all.

Counter strike is a tactic game with one life per round. Nothing like cod.

 

[gothmog]

If we go by both SLCs that the CMA defined:

• Console sales in the UK market = they are behind Sony and Nintendo.
• Cloud gaming in the UK market = they are #1 with over 2/3rd of the market share.

So, overall, they aren't a distant 3rd.

Using ambiguous words like distant and then demanding numbers is basically arguing in bad faith. I wouldn't waste your time.

 

[ironmang]

Already taken care of ...

Tried 3 different browsers and still not seeing rankings.

Using ambiguous words like distant and then demanding numbers is basically arguing in bad faith. I wouldn't waste your time.

Instead of distant would you prefer I just posted the console sales numbers that I'm sure everyone is familiar with? Someone had a problem with my comparison point so I asked what they're using that Xbox is not getting crushed like they are on console sales. How is that "arguing in bad faith"?

 

[Ozriel]

Share where Microsoft submitted to regulators that only "existing games" will remain multiplatform.

I’m supposed to share something I’ve never claimed?
Lmao. What’s this strawman about?

All I’ve said repeatedly is that Microsoft never committed to any regulator to keep Bethesda games multiplatform, and Phil said future releases would be on a case-by-case basis.

 

[Heisenberg007]

I’m supposed to share something I’ve never claimed?
Lmao. What’s this strawman about?

All I’ve said repeatedly is that Microsoft never committed to any regulator to keep Bethesda games multiplatform, and Phil said future releases would be on a case-by-case basis.

Did you not?

Are you back to trying to frame unreleased games in development as ‘existing games’?

Why?

 

[DarkMage619]

Not like Phil has ever misled anyone about intentions ....

We all know many people here have an irrational hatred of Phil Spencer. Certain people jumped into the man's birthday wishes thread to attack him and call him names. Still the fact remains that MS has stated many times they plan to treat CoD like Minecraft and there is no evidence they would go back on that choice. Recall Minecraft and it's spin-offs are released multi-platform without contractual requirements. CoD will certainly be with all the regulatory scrutiny.

 

[Heisenberg007]

how big is the cloud gaming market in overall share of the gaming industry at the moment?

the market share does not matter because it has been identified as a nascent, growing market.

What's more important is that Xbox has a 70% share in the UK cloud gaming market, while PlayStation has less than 20%.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

You cropped out the part where the EC says this conclusion is in line with their own independent market investigation.

This is a separate issue compared to whether MS mislead regulators.

 

[DarkMage619]

the market share does not matter because it has been identified as a nascent, growing market.

What's more important is that Xbox has a 70% share in the UK cloud gaming market, while PlayStation has less than 20%.

How can cloud on Xbox be a market when it can not be accessed on that platform outside of Game pass ultimate? It is a feature of a subscription service not an independent market. This again shows how the regulators have no idea what they are doing. No wonder Nintendo was omitted when they named market competitors.

 

[DeepEnigma]

This again shows how the regulators have no idea what they are doing

 

[HoofHearted]

The ban claimed another one. People are getting dropped like flies these days.

Ezekiel_

Mar 22, 2023

Permanent

 

[phil_t98]

the market share does not matter because it has been identified as a nascent, growing market.

What's more important is that Xbox has a 70% share in the UK cloud gaming market, while PlayStation has less than 20%.

so where can I start Microsoft could gaming? how do I do it?

 

[DJ12]

Lots of people being super overwhelmed because now they have to admit that their favorite console is run by someone who is just as much of a lying empty suit as ever other console chief.

Q. How can you tell Phil Spencer is lying?

A. His lips move.

 

[Heisenberg007]

How can cloud on Xbox be a market when it can not be accessed on that platform outside of Game pass ultimate? It is a feature of a subscription service not an independent market. This again shows how the regulators have no idea what they are doing. No wonder Nintendo was omitted when they named market competitors.

That's your understanding.

Actual regulatory bodies have identified cloud gaming as a separate market, after studying the industry, talking to developers/publishers, and conducting surveys.

It's extremely stupid to say that "regulators don't have any idea what they are doing" just because they don't agree with your arbitrary definition.

 

[Topher]

Ezekiel_ this is for you, bro

 

[Thirty7ven]

its relevant in the fact you don't know how big that market is compared to traditional market

The relevant aspect is the potential size of the market.

In the Meta case it was a piece of a piece of a piece. Here it’s an entire platform/distribution model for an entire industry.

It’s very relevant that the FTC managed to get that bit out of the Meta case. It’s a shame some people want to fall so hard for the whole FTC is incompetent, failing to realize you are just siding with dark money and the idea that you shouldn’t have any means to evolve law to meet modern regulation needs. Law isn’t meant to stand still.

 

[Thirty7ven]

How can cloud on Xbox be a market when it can not be accessed on that platform outside of Game pass ultimate? It is a feature of a subscription service not an independent market. This again shows how the regulators have no idea what they are doing. No wonder Nintendo was omitted when they named market competitors.

That’s like saying you need a Netflix sub to stream Netflix content.

Basically you said nothing with too many words.

 

[ToadMan]

its relevant in the fact you don't know how big that market is compared to traditional market

And that argument was dismissed by the court in the Meta/Within judgement.

 

[HoofHearted]

Ezekiel_ this is for you, bro

 

[ToadMan]

Tried 3 different browsers and still not seeing rankings.

It’s ok man - I got you.

MS aren’t a distant third when it comes to this acquisition.

 

[phil_t98]

The relevant aspect is the potential size of the market.

In the Meta case it was a piece of a piece of a piece. Here it’s an entire platform/distribution model for an entire industry.

It’s very relevant that the FTC managed to get that bit out of the Meta case. It’s a shame some people want to fall so hard for the whole FTC is incompetent, failing to realize you are just siding with dark money and the idea that you shouldn’t have any means to evolve law to meet modern regulation needs. Law isn’t meant to stand still.

first up dark money?

yes the markets will evolve but how quick nobody knows. we are gaming enthusiast here and not a single one of us want to play games on cloud services. usually the hardcore gamers drive the casuals and if were not gonna switch it will take a long ass time for cloud to become mainstream and consoles cease to exist

look how we all mocked staidia when it came out and how hard it failed

 

[fred420170]

The relevant aspect is the potential size of the market.

In the Meta case it was a piece of a piece of a piece. Here it’s an entire platform/distribution model for an entire industry.

It’s very relevant that the FTC managed to get that bit out of the Meta case. It’s a shame some people want to fall so hard for the whole FTC is incompetent, failing to realize you are just siding with dark money and the idea that you shouldn’t have any means to evolve law to meet modern regulation needs. Law isn’t meant to stand still.

The FTC needs to stop wasting American tax dollars protecting a foreign company on this b.s. They should really be focused on the Albertsons/Winn Dixie merger. 8 dollars for a dozen eggs is ridiculous.

 

[ToadMan]

MS has stated many times they plan to treat CoD like Minecraft

Patently false.

1) There is no 10 year cliff edge on Minecraft and

2) We have yet to see Minecraft 2 platforms

 

[Ozriel]

It is. And thats why this acquisition is blocked now.

Neither the EC or CMA would act otherwise even if Bethesda games were kept multiplatform. The COD IP is too big and the SLC potential would still exist.

There’s a reason why they aren’t talking about any other ABK IP in their statements of objection.

 

[MarkMe2525]

My favourite rationale was if FFVII Remake [currently outside any exclusive contract] was released on Xbox it would make enough money to cover the port.

Imagine the positives being you'd likely make the port money back.

A company recouping their investment is absolutely a positive thing, every additional sale is then contributing to their profit. Are you taking the position that it would not be profitable for Square to port FFVII to Xbox?

 

[tpieman2029]

Patently false.

1) There is no 10 year cliff edge on Minecraft and

2) We have yet to see Minecraft 2 platforms

We've seen minecraft dungeons and legends go multiplat

 

[Ozriel]

This is a separate issue compared to whether MS mislead regulators.

How can MS have misled the EC when they themselves say they weren’t misled and they based their decision on their own market investigation?

They did not take the decision to approve based on Microsoft’s statements. That much is clear.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

How can MS have misled the EC when they themselves say they weren’t misled and they based their decision on their own market investigation?

They did not take the decision to approve based on Microsoft’s statements. That much is clear.

The EC determined that the Bethesda deal wasn’t a threat to competition, even if MS foreclosed on their content on PlayStation. That’s it.

It doesn’t make any statement as to whether MS made misleading statements regarding their intentions.

 

[IFireflyl]

I’m not talking about deals, I’m talking about all the developers Sony has in their stable that they didn’t create or build up, they bought. It’s only bad when MS does it.

Queue “that was different” response below.

I have done this before (and it largely went ignored), but let's put this into perspective:

Sony Acquisitions:
May 21, 1993 - Psygnosis
December 1, 2000 - Bend Studio
January 22, 2001 - Naughty Dog
August 7, 2002 - Incognito Entertainment
December 7, 2005 - Guerrilla Games
January 25, 2006 - Zipper Interactive
May 15, 2007 - Sigil Games Online Inc
September 20, 2007 - Evolution Studios, Bigbig Studios
March 2, 2010 - Media Molecule
August 2, 2011 - Sucker Punch Productions
January 8, 2019 - Audiokinetic
August 19, 2019 - Insomniac Games
June 29, 2021 - Housemarque
July 1, 2021 - Nixxes Software
September 8, 2021 - Firesprite
September 29, 2021 - Fabrik Games
September 30, 2021 - Bluepoint Games
December 10, 2021 - Valkyrie Entertainment
February 1, 2022 - Lasengle (gaming division of DelightWorks)
March 21, 2022 - Haven Studios
July 15, 2022 - Bungie
August 29, 2022 - Savage Game Studios

That is every video game acquisition by Sony to date. That is 22 acquisitions in almost 29 years, and over half of those were within the last five years. This is almost identical to Microsoft who is at 18 video game acquisitions in the same time frame (Activision Blizzard isn't being considered yet as the acquisition hasn't been approved).

Microsoft Acquisitions:
January 11, 1999 - FASA Interactive
April 19, 1999 - Access Software
June 19, 2000 - Bungie
December 5, 2000 - Digital Anvil
May 3, 2001 - Ensemble Studios
September 24, 2002 - Rare
April 6, 2006 - Lionhead Studios
October 12, 2011 - Twisted Pixel Games
June 5, 2012 - Press Play
November 6, 2014 - Mojang
June 11, 2018 - Ninja Theory
June 11, 2018 - Undead Labs
June 11, 2018 - Compulsion Games
June 11, 2018 - Playground Games
November 10, 2018 - inXile Entertainment
November 10, 2018 - Obsidian Entertainment
June 9, 2019 - Double Fine Productions
September 21, 2020 - ZeniMax Media

Sony acquired 1 entity when they jumped into video games. That was Psygnosis. When Microsoft jumped into video games, they acquired 6 different studios (FASA Interactive, Access Software, Bungie, Digital Anvil, Ensemble Studios, and Rare) before they released the Xbox. By the time Xbox was released, Sony had made 4 total acquisitions (Psygnosis, Bend Studio, Naughty Dog, and Incognito Entertainment). From 1993 until the beginning of 2003 (a decade) Sony had made 4 acquisitions, while Xbox made 7 acquisitions prior to launch.

Let's talk about the elephant in the room: Psygnosis. Psygnosis was a publisher, it's true. But it wasn't anywhere close to the behemoth that is Activision Blizzard. Psygnosis was acquired for less than $25,000,000. Even adjusted for inflation, the entire acquisition was around $50,000,000. For perspective, the Activision Blizzard acquisition is approximately 1,380 times larger than the Psygnosis acquisition. You can't honestly compare these two. Even the Zenimax acquisition is much larger than the Psygnosis acquisition, and there was far less outcry over Zenimax's acquisition than there has been for Activision Blizzard. Also, Psygnosis titles were made for different platforms even after their acquisition. 1998-2000 saw that reduced to mostly PlayStation, but Sony didn't do what Microsoft did with Zenimax and just cancel the games currently in development for opposing platforms. Oh, and Sony's acquisition of Pysgnosis cost less than Microsoft's acquisition of Bungie. Just so you have that piece of information.

Stop saying or implying that Psygnosis somehow paved the way for Activision Blizzard. That is a false equivalency, and anyone with more than 50 brain cells can see that. The playing field between Microsoft and Sony, in terms of total studios, is more than adequate for Microsoft. They own more studios than Sony, even without the Activision Blizzard acquisition. They don't need Activision Blizzard. They need to work on their studio management. Sony works closely with their studios, and their studios share resources (knowledge, practices, et cetera). Microsoft's studios almost function like individual, walled-off gardens, and Microsoft seems to expect their studios to sink or swim on their own instead of working with the studios, and bringing support from Studio A to Studio B.

This isn't just my opinion in a vacuum. There have been articles written on this, such as this one:

https://gamingbolt.com/what-is-going-on-with-xbox-game-studios

But the current predicament of these titles goes beyond the amount of money invested or the buzzwords used to market them – it’s about Microsoft’s plan to effectively manage its studios. Encouraging independence isn’t an excuse for such a blatantly hands-off approach which allows titles to fester for years in development hell, with some fostering mistreatment to occur. On the surface, it’s just baffling how a company that’s been ranked as one of the top 10 most reputable companies eight times in 11 years (as per RepTrak) could have such problems with its gaming division.

If anything, these issues highlight the hurdles and challenges that can occur with acquisitions. Not everything becomes all bright and shiny by throwing money at it, and no studio is immediately improved under new management. With Activision-Blizzard further bolstering the number of studios, it’s about to get even tougher.

Microsoft needs to manage what it has. Adding more studios isn't going to fix their mismanagement issue: it's going to exacerbate it.

 

[feynoob]

1 month left until the final decision.

 

[DarkMage619]

That's your understanding.

Actual regulatory bodies have identified cloud gaming as a separate market, after studying the industry, talking to developers/publishers, and conducting surveys.

It's extremely stupid to say that "regulators don't have any idea what they are doing" just because they don't agree with your arbitrary definition.

It is extremely stupid to agree with whatever regulators say when it is clear they don't know what they are talking about. There is nothing arbitrary about normal clearly defined historical market definitions.

Game pass was finally determined to NOT be an independent market only an alternative payment for games. It is asinine to then argue that a component of an alternative payment method which is not independent is now a market.

I have seen little evidence some regulators could distinguish between what Nvidia is doing with GeForce Now and what MS is doing with Game pass ultimate. Just because both have cloud aspects doesn't make them identical. Pretty sure you know that.

 

[DrFigs]

Microsoft needs to manage what it has. Adding more studios isn't going to fix their mismanagement issue: it's going to exacerbate it.

I think there's a good chance the Activision/Blizzard guys will probably take over the xbox division.

 

[Thirty7ven]

The FTC needs to stop wasting American tax dollars protecting a foreign company on this b.s.

You’re an ignorant fool if that’s how you see things.