DLSS 3 Mod creator for Jedi Survivor/TLOU and other games adds a DRM to his Red Dead Redemption 2 DLSS 3 Mod

Paid mods: good or bad idea?

  • I'm ok with that

    Votes: 30 14.7%

  • Nah, that sucks

    Votes: 174 85.3%
  • Total voters
    204
Can't blame a guy for trying to make a buck, but can also hope someone releases their own DLSS mod day 1 and completely puts him on his ass. In fact I'm counting on it.
 
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Gordon Fearman said:
No, I'm pretty sure you don't understand. "any account that has subscribed before can pass the authentication." Explain to me why when you download the update for the mod, the update won't pass authentication. You've obviously already "subscribed before" because you authenticated before, so why would you not be able to authenticate on the update?
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We shall see. Personally I think thats not going to happen. We will know once the mod is released people buy it and then 1st patch hits.
 
My question is: since he is "using" material from nvidia and the games, and he's actively monetizing it, wouldn't the companies demand a piece of the revenue? You can say that what he sells is the implementation of the the tech, but that requires the game files to be tinkered.
 
Cyberpunkd said:
I remember Bethesda tried to profit from mods, check how they worked out. This is hilariously against the ethos of the modding community, guy's reputation is toast.
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It seems to have worked out pretty well. The new special edition has a bunch of mods in it and they are selling the game all over again. The modders got paid too, and the mods actually sold ok on xbox. Huge backlash from the pc community at first though, console gamers were just happy to even have the option to buy them,
 
There are open source library devs out there abandoning projects and complaining about companies or other devs taking advantage of their work without them feeling compensated enough or feeling that the required support isn't worth it the effort.

It's normal for people that develop these stuff to want something in return, it's hard to do, hard to maintain, people act as if they're in their RIGHT to have stuff for free because they find them on internet.

Things cost, just as there's no free education, free healthcare, etc. There's no free thing but the air, someone had to pay for it, someone had to pay for these mods with their time so it could exist.
 
Kataploom said:
There are open source library devs out there abandoning projects and complaining about companies or other devs taking advantage of their work without them feeling compensated enough or feeling that the required support isn't worth it the effort.

It's normal for people that develop these stuff to want something in return, it's hard to do, hard to maintain, people act as if they're in their RIGHT to have stuff for free because they find them on internet.

Things cost, just as there's no free education, free healthcare, etc. There's no free thing but the air, someone had to pay for it, someone had to pay for these mods with their time so it could exist.
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We have free education and free Healthcare in europe
 
Just because mods have historically been free doesn't automatically mean mods should (or should not) be free. That's a judgement call we all have to make.

Presumably if people are willing to pay for his mods then:
1) they're deriving enough value from his work to justify paying him
2) they have given up hope that the developer(s) of the games in question will do it themselves (in a timely manner)
3) they either have more than enough money to afford to subscribe (even once) to his patreon or are so shit with money that they don't deserve anyone's pity

Also people claiming that he's breaking the law or breaking some sort of licensing agreement or copyright by doing this are, in my opinion, being intentionally obtuse.

Whether he is violating any laws or licenses is completely irrelevant to the original question of whether someone thinks that what he is doing is worth paying for, and the only reason they would bring it up is to draw attention to him and get him shut down out of spite.

Also:
Pagusas said:
Can't blame a guy for trying to make a buck, but can also hope someone releases their own DLSS mod day 1 and completely puts him on his ass. In fact I'm counting on it.
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Presumably the reason he can and is de-facto charging for these mods (I say de-facto because teeeeechnically you're just donating to his Patreon) is that nobody else is offering the same thing for free.
 
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Thirty7ven said:
At the end of the day nobody is entitled to other people's free labor.
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True ..but many make mods out of altruism. If they're moderately well of.

Others do it for clout or to build their selves a portfolio for entering the business.

Honestly this guy can do whatever he pleases as long as he's honest about his monetization.
 
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If FSR 3 is close in quality to dlss 2.2 then this guy can go suck a dick, because even though it's not announced yet, I bet AMD and bethesda are working on FSR3 for Starfield right now.

Also this scummy piece of rat feces has likely inspired other modders/programmers to try their hand at a DLSS mod of their own, just out of spite of this grubs greed.
 
Maybe this will kick Nvidia into gear to find a way to get ms/bethesda to get dlss added quickly. Nothing worse than having your product associated with things like this.
 
sinnergy said:
Where? Because I paid for both, here in the EU. Still am.
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You mean taxes?

American pay taxes and get nothing in return. It's not "free" in Europe but when you work normally you don't think about it.

Of course if you don't want to use public schools and healthcare objects you can pay private companies but that's your choice.
 
supernova8 said:
Just because mods have historically been free doesn't automatically mean mods should (or should not) be free. That's a judgement call we all have to make.

Presumably if people are willing to pay for his mods then:
1) they're deriving enough value from his work to justify paying him
2) they have given up hope that the developer(s) of the games in question will do it themselves (in a timely manner)
3) they either have more than enough money to afford to subscribe (even once) to his patreon or are so shit with money that they don't deserve anyone's pity

Also people claiming that he's breaking the law or breaking some sort of licensing agreement or copyright by doing this are, in my opinion, being intentionally obtuse.

Whether he is violating any laws or licenses is completely irrelevant to the original question of whether someone thinks that what he is doing is worth paying for, and the only reason they would bring it up is to draw attention to him and get him shut down out of spite.

Also:

Presumably the reason he can and is de-facto charging for these mods (I say de-facto because teeeeechnically you're just donating to his Patreon) is that nobody else is offering the same thing for free.
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The issues here are two fold.

1. Giant multi-billion corporations like EA or multi-trillion like MS are not providing proper support for their games and encouraging this particular modder to do it for them.
2. Modder requires continuing subscription to update the mod. So over a life of a game like Starfield that will add up to quite a bit more vs game itself.
3. DRM for mods is just a terrible precedent in general.
 
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MidGenRefresh said:
So exactly like it was before? Like, where's the controversy here?
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I know, it's exactly the same as it was before except harder for people to steal the guy's work. Remember kids, it's the game companies at fault here, for making these mods necessary in the first place.
 
Well considering anyone using dlss3 had to have a 40xx series card anyway (thanks Nvidia) and will have the money as those cards aren't cheap (unless they blew there savings on a $1k plus gpu). I bet they can afford the mod.

That being said... Charging for mods is ridiculous. These mod websites aren't helping matters. Well they also like to censor mods they don't like as well. Wtf... I miss old days of modding. Where money wasn't exchanged and there was no limits.
 
StereoVsn said:
The issues here are two fold.

1. Giant multi-billion corporations like EA or multi-trillion like MS are not providing proper support for their games and encouraging this particular modder to do it for them.
2. Modder requires continuing subscription to update the mod. So over a life of a game like Starfield that will add up to quite a bit more vs game itself.
3. DRM for mods is just a terrible precedent in general.
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1. Are they actively (explicitly) encouraging him to do it? (If so, not against any terms)
2. I thought some people said it only requires you to have subscribed once ever (not continuous)
3. Sure DRM is annoying but it's not like Denuvo or anything. Sounds like it's a one-time check via a bot to let you download the update rather than something that has to be on in the background constantly and hurts game performance (like Denuvo)
 
supernova8 said:
1. Are they actively (explicitly) encouraging him to do it? (If so, not against any terms)
2. I thought some people said it only requires you to have subscribed once ever (not continuous)
3. Sure DRM is annoying but it's not like Denuvo or anything. Sounds like it's a one-time check via a bot to let you download the update rather than something that has to be on in the background constantly and hurts game performance (like Denuvo)
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1. Bethesda sent him early review copy. Both EA and Bethesda as re not pursuing copyright violations here since he is basically earning money in mods which is a very grey legal area.

They are using him since they got AMD agreements basically which is ridiculous considering the size of these corpos.

2. That's what folks are reporting for Jedi Survivor right now. The policy could change but I am doubtful.

3. It's still DRM for mods. Fuck that and the horse it rode on.
 
Since Starfield supports FSR 2 also for Nvidia cards i don't really need DLSS necessarily in this case. Sure DLSS is more advanced but i hope FSR 2 will also make the game run faster.
 
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amigastar said:
Since Starfield supports FSR 2 also for Nvidia cards i don't really need DLSS necessarily in this case. Sure DLSS is more advanced but i hope FSR 2 will also make the game run faster.
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FSR 2 is kind of crap unless you are running Quality mode basically so 1080p to 1440p or 1440p to 4K rendering. This is especially so in motion.

DLSS frame generation could also be utilized and it's likely to be better vs FSR 3, especially considering much better latency techniques ok Nvidia's side. Well, and Starfield isn't supporting FSR 3 for now at least.

Will FSR 2 be usable? Yes, especially so since Starfield isn't running Unreal 5 and their games are generally harder on CPUs vs GPUs (well, unmodded). Is it an ideal situation considering Bethesda is owned by MS and shouldn't need whatever the hell AMD offered? That's a resounding no.
 
StereoVsn said:
FSR 2 is kind of crap unless you are running Quality mode basically so 1080p to 1440p or 1440p to 4K rendering. This is especially so in motion.

DLSS frame generation could also be utilized and it's likely to be better vs FSR 3, especially considering much better latency techniques ok Nvidia's side. Well, and Starfield isn't supporting FSR 3 for now at least.

Will FSR 2 be usable? Yes, especially so since Starfield isn't running Unreal 5 and their games are generally harder on CPUs vs GPUs (well, unmodded). Is it an ideal situation considering Bethesda is owned by MS and shouldn't need whatever the hell AMD offered? That's a resounding no.
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I honestly can't play with FSR on even in quality (or ultra quality when available). I think the image quality is too degraded, last time I tried it was on Jedi Survivor and damn that looked bad, IQ was a lot softer and as soon as there is a light source it flashes all over the place. DLSS on the other hand is better than native in most case.

Shadowstar39 said:
Well considering anyone using dlss3 had to have a 40xx series card anyway (thanks Nvidia) and will have the money as those cards aren't cheap (unless they blew there savings on a $1k plus gpu). I bet they can afford the mod.

That being said... Charging for mods is ridiculous. These mod websites aren't helping matters. Well they also like to censor mods they don't like as well. Wtf... I miss old days of modding. Where money wasn't exchanged and there was no limits.
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MeanVillainousIchneumonfly-max-1mb.gif


But seriously, we don't know if the game will be well optimized and I'm not sure my 4090 will maintain 144FPS@4K with the game fully maxed out. And even then, having DLSS 3 could help a lot when we start getting crazy mods for Starfield.
 
It's one thing to put a mod behind a paywall.

It's a whole different thing to make the mod authenticate.

Like he had to intentionally go out of his way to be a complete asshole.
 
CrustyBritches said:
I'll think about. I would prefer the donation route rather than paid with drm.

Truthfully, I'll probably be done with my first playthrough within a month, I'm not worried about it long-term.

I blame AMD and Bethesda more than I blame him.
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Your argument position:

NVIDIA's anti-competitive action = good

AMD/Bethesda's anticompetitive action = bad

You're a hypocrite.
 
rnlval said:
Your argument position:

NVIDIA's anti-competitive action = good

AMD/Bethesda's anticompetitive action = bad

You're a hypocrite.
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Nice strawman ya got there. I never mentioned Nvidia.

It's AMD's fault for not having FSR3 ready, and Bethesda's fault for not implementing DLSS.
 
StereoVsn said:
The issues here are two fold.

1. Giant multi-billion corporations like EA or multi-trillion like MS are not providing proper support for their games and encouraging this particular modder to do it for them.
2. Modder requires continuing subscription to update the mod. So over a life of a game like Starfield that will add up to quite a bit more vs game itself.
3. DRM for mods is just a terrible precedent in general.
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1. DLSS only runs on NVIDIA hardware. In AI and HPC, MS is an ecosystem competitor against NVIDIA's AI ecosystem.

From https://devblogs.microsoft.com/directx/agility-sdk-1-711/ Microsoft's recent update for DirectX12 includes Wave Matrix support.

GPUs and compute devices have begun adding dedicated silicon to their hardware to support matrix multiplication at higher bandwidths for usage in machine learning and imaging applications. To allow access to this dedicated silicon, HLSL is adding Wave Matrix instructions to the language, also known as Wave Matrix Multiply Accumulate (WaveMMA). This addition defines several new abstract Wave Matrix data types, which allows the underlying hardware to store, rearrange, and duplicate data across all threads in a wave.


This recent DirectX12 update feature corresponds to AMD's RDNA 3 Wave MMA (matrix multiply-accumulate) instructions (via AI matrix accelerator, ref 1) and NVIDIA's Tensor cores.

Reference

1. https://www.custompc.com/wp-content/sites/custompc/2023/05/ComputeUnit.jpg
 
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rnlval said:
1. DLSS only runs on NVIDIA hardware. In AI and HPC, MS is an ecosystem competitor against NVIDIA's AI ecosystem.
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MS is one of the biggest purchasers of Nvidia's hardware and so is OpenAI they invested $10bil in. Yeah, MS has some custom hardware but that is not really utilized much in the space even by them.

Also, this is Xbox and gaming. If they are going to utilize this vertical structure like this where gaming division even on PC can't utilize something like DLSS that would be a terrible look for the antitrust hearings.

Also they have other games with DLSS. So basically above is nonsense.
 
StereoVsn said:
MS is one of the biggest purchasers of Nvidia's hardware and so is OpenAI they invested $10bil in. Yeah, MS has some custom hardware but that is not really utilized much in the space even by them.

Also, this is Xbox and gaming. If they are going to utilize this vertical structure like this where gaming division even on PC can't utilize something like DLSS that would be a terrible look for the antitrust hearings.

Also they have other games with DLSS. So basically above is nonsense.
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Read https://devblogs.microsoft.com/directx/agility-sdk-1-711/ for Microsoft's Agility SDK v1.711.3 preview (Jun 2023)'s recent update for Wave Matrix feature support for DirectX12's HLSL.

Wave Matrix

GPUs and compute devices have begun adding dedicated silicon to their hardware to support matrix multiplication at higher bandwidths for usage in machine learning and imaging applications. To allow access to this dedicated silicon, HLSL is adding Wave Matrix instructions to the language, also known as Wave Matrix Multiply Accumulate (WaveMMA). This addition defines several new abstract Wave Matrix data types, which allows the underlying hardware to store, rearrange, and duplicate data across all threads in a wave.


Microsoft's recent DirectX12 update feature corresponds to AMD's RDNA 3 Wave MMA (matrix multiply-accumulate) instructions (via AI matrix accelerator, ref 1) and NVIDIA's Tensor cores.

For the AI ecosystem, Microsoft has other directions e.g. DirectML and DirectX12's Wave Matrix instructions with HLSL update which has multiple hardware source support.

Antitrust.... US FTC rejected NVIDIA's takeover of ARM due to NVIDIA's anticompetitive issues.
www.ftc.gov

FTC Sues to Block $40 Billion Semiconductor Chip Merger

The Federal Trade Commission today sued to block U.S. chip supplier Nvidia Corp.’s $40 billion acquisition of U.K. chip design provider Arm Ltd.
www.ftc.gov www.ftc.gov


Microsoft is working with AMD, Intel, NVIDIA, and Qualcomm for DirectX12's Wave Matrix Multiply Accumulate (WaveMMA) HLSL feature update and this fulfills multiple hardware source requirements and you can't say the same for NVIDIA's DLSS.
Reference
1. https://microsoft.github.io/DirectX-Specs/d3d/HLSL_SM_6_8_WaveMatrix.html Shader Model 6.8 has Wave Matrix Multiply Accumulate (WaveMMA) feature support.
 
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rnlval said:
Fact: DLSS is only available for NVIDIA hardware. Stop dodging the truth.
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Sony implemented both FSR 2 and DLSS in multiple titles: God of War, Returnal, and Ratchet & Clank: Rift Apart. The technologies are not mutually exclusive.

Starfield launches in less than 3 days. AMD didn't have their FG tech ready for prime time in their biggest sponsored game of the year. Bethesda, for whatever reason, chose not to have DLSS 2 or 3 in their game. According to AMD, they were free to do so. Hence, I blame AMD and Bethesda.

My argument was never regarding the claim AMD paid for FSR exclusivity. That was an assumption on your part. My post was made after AMD stated Bethesda was free to implement DLSS.
 
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CrustyBritches said:
Sony implemented both FSR 2 and DLSS in multiple titles: God of War, Returnal, and Ratchet & Clank: Rift Apart. The technologies are not mutually exclusive.

Starfield launches in less than 3 days. AMD didn't have their FG tech ready for prime time in their biggest sponsored game of the year. Bethesda, for whatever reason, chose not to have DLSS 2 or 3 in their game. According to AMD, they were free to do so. Hence, I blame AMD and Bethesda.

My argument was never regarding the claim AMD paid for FSR exclusivity. That was an assumption on your part. My post was made after AMD stated Bethesda was free to implement DLSS.
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Sony's PlayStation platform doesn't offer an AI ecosystem like Microsoft's DirectX12 Shader Model 6.8 HLSL and DirectML. NVIDIA's CUDA AI ecosystem is an ecosystem competitor.

Bethesda is under Microsoft's administration. AMD's FSR works on multi-vendor hardware.
 
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rnlval said:
Sony doesn't offer an AI ecosystem like Microsoft's DirectX12 Shader Model 6.8 HLSL and DirectML.

Bethesda is under Microsoft's administration. AMD's FSR works on multi-vendor hardware.
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Microsoft has FSR 2 and DLSS 2+3 in their most advanced PC games: FS2020 and Forza Horizon 5.

Nothing precluded Bethesda from offering DLSS in Starfield. It will be getting DLSS 3 via PureDark during early access, and DLSS 2 shortly after.
 
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CrustyBritches said:
Microsoft has FSR 2 and DLSS 2+3 in their most advanced PC games: FS2020 and Forza Horizon 5.

Nothing precluded Bethesda from offering DLSS in Starfield. It will be getting DLSS 3 via PureDark during early access, and DLSS 2 shortly after.
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FS2020 (August 2020) and Forza Horizon 5 (released Nov 2021) are before Microsoft's Shader Model 6.8 with Agility SDK 1.711.3-preview Jun 2023 release. PureDark's custom mod action has nothing to do with Microsoft's direction.

Microsoft is solidifying its own AI ecosystem road map and it's attached with DirectX12 HLSL Shader Model 6.8.
 
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Donation are ok, this is bullshit and most likely will get him into legal trouble, which good, I can't imagine this being more involved than those VR modes, you hack dxinput and load whatever the fuck you want. Also that DLSS code, is most likely from nVidia hack, so that also could a problem.
 
Now I remember that one of the biggest (at that time) youtuber in my country was selling pirated skyrim fetish mods:messenger_confounded:
 
Really these pubs should be offsetting the costs for consumers.

He's a cunt for doing this but you can't blame a dude for trying to make a living off his own work. DRM is definitely the wrong way to go about this.
 
Unknown Soldier said:
LMAO imagine if AMD wasn't paying developers to exclude DLSS

Congrats to AMD for once again being the worst imaginable underdog
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DLSS is a single hardware vendor proprietary like 3DFX's Glide API and it's road-killed when Microsoft has Shader Model 6.8.

The new Wave Matrix Multiply Accumulate (WMMA) instructions added in HLSL Shader Model 6.8 allow shader developers to accelerate Generalized Matrix Multiplication (GEMM) matrix operations of the form:

gemm_matrix_equation.svg


WMMA instructions task all threads in a wave to collaboratively perform a matrix-multiply operation with higher efficiency and throughput than previously achievable using SM 6.7 or earlier instructions.

GEMM operations have many uses in in signal-processing, physics simulations, machine learning, and computer vision.
Some examples include:
  • Performing Fast-Fourier Transforms for signal processing, such as audio, radio, or radar applications
  • Applying filters and post-processing to images
  • Calculating deformation of objects and fluids, such as fluid/physics sim or molecular simulation
  • Implementing deep learning operators – for example convolution, multi-layer-perceptron, neural radiance fields, and so on.
 
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CrustyBritches said:
Bethesda, for whatever reason, chose not to have DLSS 2 or 3 in their game. According to AMD, they were free to do so. Hence, I blame AMD and Bethesda.
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AMD only said this after months of saying 'No Comment' and dropped the ball in Bethesda's lap.

Easy way for them to get off scott free.
 
MMaRsu said:
AMD only said this after months of saying 'No Comment' and dropped the ball in Bethesda's lap.

Easy way for them to get off scott free.
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Ron is saying that it's neither AMD's contract, nor Bethesda's decision, but instead it's Microsoft dictating that they don't support a competing AI solution. All I know is that 1 dude can implement DLSS in a single day, MS had it in 2 games recently, and PC gamers want it in the game. Somebody is cock-blocking it.
 
Paid mods in racing Sims are standard fair and have been for years.

RaceSimStudio
United Racing Designs
Virtual Racing Cars

All great houses bringing great content that I pay for.

You want good stuff, be prepared to pay for it. What entitles you to it otherwise?
 
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