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[MCplayer]

As someone who has been gaming for more than 23 years, who is a professional videographer (which means that I do care about visuals and sound alot), who started car photography and videography in Forza 3 (and I always had an xbox since 2001 and yes, Forza gave me the career I have professionally literally), just played gran turismo for the first time this year (I bought my first ever PlayStation this year), as someone whos a nerd about graphics, and as a hardcore sim racer with an actual rig, I can confirm that although Forza is technically more advanced in some aspects, GT7 is visually much more impressive, GT7 is the definition of work smarter not harder, GT7 is less demanding (or at least seems better optimized) while locking far superior while gaming for a simple reason which is also true in film and real life, Lighing, you can't see without light, that is what our eyes and brains gather data from to translate the data to bright, dark, colourfull or not and that is what GT7 focuses more and it pays of big time, Forza track details might be superior but the tracks are less accurate and the lighting ruins it.

I have also been saying this, GT7 artstyle approach is intended to be photorealistic and FM is meant to be more cinematic, filmic, the excessive fog, flat ish' lighting all that volumetric lighting in the fog during night at rain, the highlights roll-of, the greyish blacks, the "color grading" per say...and being more "cinematic" comes into subjectivity, wether you like how it looks or not while gran turismo is easier to be more impressive since is trying to replicate real life visuals which lets be honest, a game looking "realistic" is the ultimate goal in graphics fidelity overall, a game can look very cinematic but a photorealistic game will always wow everyone alot more, and that doesn't mean that the tech needs to be complex and best in class.

We have all seen this right?


I have a very well trained eye so yeah, thats my verdict on these games comparisons.

Also if you're interested go check my old Forza photos and new GT7 photos.
https://flickr.com/photos/71546098@N08

 

[Godfavor]

Forza motorsport was built with real time GI in mind when talking about lighting. Due to myriad of different lighting conditions that could happen it is very difficult to match a fine tuned static lightning conditions of GT. Maybe a pathtracer will be the next step. Or the next update of Ray tracing GI on PC

 

[Senua]

Forza motorsport was built with real time GI in mind when talking about lighting. Due to myriad of different lighting conditions that could happen it is very difficult to match a fine tuned static lightning conditions of GT.

Um..I think you're thinking of GT Sport? GT7 has dynamic ToD

 

[Godfavor]

Um..I think you're thinking of GT Sport? GT7 has dynamic ToD

Isn't it like some gradiant static lighting according to time of day ? I might be wrong

 

[PaintTinJr]

Bonnet view is the best view imo.
That or dashcam.

On what hardware/settings/frame-rate was this image captured?

The reason I ask, is that the motion blur/depth of field in the shot looks like it has been accumulated over multiple frames, and a raw capture at native 60fps or higher on PC I would expect those areas to look shaper

 

[Elysium44]

Just noticed the game pass $1/£1 offer is back again if it's of interest to anyone, I am going to use that to try this game out.

 

[Senua]

Just noticed the game pass $1/£1 offer is back again if it's of interest to anyone, I am going to use that to try this game out.

I look forward to your thoughts

 

[Elysium44]

I look forward to your thoughts

I was just trying to be helpful, man... no need to be a prick.

 

[Senua]

I was just trying to be helpful, man... no need to be a prick.

Lol people are touchy on gaf this morning, I was laughing because I know you'll demolish it (deservedly so). Have fun brother!

 

[Elysium44]

Lol people are touchy on gaf this morning, I was laughing because I know you'll demolish it (deservedly so). Have fun brother!

maybe I will be pleasantly surprised, I hope so. Anyway I haven't seen any Series S comparisons on here so I'm curious to see it first hand.

 

[Aion002]

maybe I will be pleasantly surprised, I hope so. Anyway I haven't seen any Series S comparisons on here so I'm curious to see it first hand.

It looks horrible on the Series S, specially on perfomance mode:

Quality mode is a little better:

It's such a downgrade compared to Forza Horizon 5, which plays and looks great on the Series S.

 

[Senua]

maybe I will be pleasantly surprised, I hope so. Anyway I haven't seen any Series S comparisons on here so I'm curious to see it first hand.

You'll like the driving itself but everything else is kinda....half baked

 

[djjinx2]

On what hardware/settings/frame-rate was this image captured?

The reason I ask, is that the motion blur/depth of field in the shot looks like it has been accumulated over multiple frames, and a raw capture at native 60fps or higher on PC I would expect those areas to look shaper

Series X screenshot, they are not really high res images. 60FPS Ray Trace Performance Mode

 

[yamaci17]

It looks horrible on the Series S, specially on perfomance mode:

Quality mode is a little better:

It's such a downgrade compared to Forza Horizon 5, which plays and looks great on the Series S.

this is primarily because forza 5 runs 4x msaa with no taa
forza motorsport went all in with TAA which is atrocious at 1080p and 1080p related upscaling

digital foundry even criticised playground for not implementing TAA to forza horizon 5 for console version (after pg added taa/dlss/fsr to pc version)

 

[Senua]

this is primarily because forza 5 runs 4x msaa with no taa
forza motorsport went all in with TAA which is atrocious at 1080p and 1080p related upscaling

digital foundry even criticised playground for not implementing TAA to forza horizon 5 for console version (after pg added taa/dlss/fsr to pc version)

They are still using forward rendering right? You'd think a MSAA option would be best for series S, and the fact it's not an option on PC is disappointing! You can't even turn AA off.

 

[Turk1993]

They are still using forward rendering right? You'd think a MSAA option would be best for series S, and the fact it's not an option on PC is disappointing! You can't even turn AA off.

DLSS isn't even working properly let alone MSAA. They really didn't test this game on pc properly. All the artefact at night in high speed is pretty bad. Not the mention the lack of a sharpness slider

 

[blue velvet]

Isn't it like some gradiant static lighting according to time of day ? I might be wrong

Where did you get that information? GT7 has real time lighting, shadow, GI. PD been doing dynamic lighting and shadow since GT5 back in 2011. It took a whole decade for T10 to keep up to industry standard.

 

[Turk1993]

And he never (as far as I remember) showed images comparing the view from inside the car, it's always in 3rd person. At least Emula is more varied in its comparisons.

This isn't even a comparison of games anymore, it's become a page of mutual accusations. Turk1993 ignored my claim that he never compares the games' cockpit, instead preferring to accuse some user of being Emula86

Budy i didn't ignore nothing, i had literally 40+ alerts yesterday when i came back from work lol.

And i have posted multiple times cockpit comparisons what are you on about. Just go check in the next gen racing thread. I stopt posting my comparison here because im playing Forza on pc and people complained.

 

[djjinx2]

Budy i didn't ignore nothing, i had literally 40+ alerts yesterday when i came back from work lol.

And i have posted multiple times cockpit comparisons what are you on about. Just go check in the next gen racing thread. I stopt posting my comparison here because im playing Forza on pc and people complained.

Even though sometimes SX is better, this is one game where PC isn't miles ahead!

 

[Senua]

Even though sometimes SX is better, this is one game where PC isn't miles ahead!

Yea. T10 fucked it

 

[nosoynadie22]

 

[nosoynadie22]

 

[Turk1993]

Even though sometimes SX is better, this is one game where PC isn't miles ahead!

Yea. T10 fucked it

Exactly! Things like higher quality RT reflections, higher quality ai lod, higher quality iq and not so buggy grass/foliage/trees should be standard in the pc version. And im not even talking about the RTGI that they where talking 24/7 before the release. The pc version looks better but not at the level that you would expect. Hopefully they put some serious time in the updates and add all of those things like FH5 did overtime.

 

[nosoynadie22]

Forza motorsport was built with real time GI in mind when talking about lighting. Due to myriad of different lighting conditions that could happen it is very difficult to match a fine tuned static lightning conditions of GT. Maybe a pathtracer will be the next step. Or the next update of Ray tracing GI on PC

 

[nosoynadie22]

 

[PaintTinJr]

Series X screenshot, they are not really high res images. 60FPS Ray Trace Performance Mode

I had no idea they'd built a simulator around a 30fps lowest common denominator. That being the case, that image looks like it is a 30fps image using Frame injection, because at 60fps, that type of motion blur requires a wider kernel (heavier) shader fx because of the lower on screen time of a frame being replaced by new data, or a very low resolution (720p60) being upscale AI filtered.

The game's internals being 30fps with inputs to match, to be able offer that mode means, I suspect that blur is caused by AI frame injection, and the game isn't actually 60fps in any of those modes by user feedback loop. That was exactly what I felt when I tried Halo Infinity, and IIRC Horizons in performance mode.

For me, this is where the comparison - on consoles at least between XsX FM and PS5 GT7 - ends because one is a simulator operating at the minimum FPS for a logical Nyquist rate feedback loop, and the other is faking it with driver assists like an arcade racer.

Whether the game has a native 60fps feedback loop on PC is probably not so clear, SlimySnake saying the game now won't hold a 60fps lock for him and has increased GPU usage, maybe suggests it does have a true simulator feedback loop on the most recent update for PC.

 

[Taycan77]

I'd like to know this too. Not discrediting him but I've never heard of him/her. does s/he have a good track record?

They are a GT data-miner, not just GT7, but all GT's.

They access GT7 data via a hacked PS4.

They were aware of a PSVR2 showroom test months before support was announced. Also revealed features like selling cars and Sophy AI where coming.

While unreleased cars & tracks can be seen in the data, it's more difficult to pin down whats ready to be released. Montreal was leaked by someone recently but that could still be a ways off.

The latest GT7 stability update was 3GB. Far larger than expected. So that could have included some content due in the next monthly update.

 

[adamsapple]

I had no idea they'd built a simulator around a 30fps lowest common denominator. That being the case, that image looks like it is a 30fps image using Frame injection, because at 60fps, that type of motion blur requires a wider kernel (heavier) shader fx because of the lower on screen time of a frame being replaced by new data, or a very low resolution (720p60) being upscale AI filtered.

The game's internals being 30fps with inputs to match, to be able offer that mode means, I suspect that blur is caused by AI frame injection, and the game isn't actually 60fps in any of those modes by user feedback loop. That was exactly what I felt when I tried Halo Infinity, and IIRC Horizons in performance mode.

For me, this is where the comparison - on consoles at least between XsX FM and PS5 GT7 - ends because one is a simulator operating at the minimum FPS for a logical Nyquist rate feedback loop, and the other is faking it with driver assists like an arcade racer.

Whether the game has a native 60fps feedback loop on PC is probably not so clear, SlimySnake saying the game now won't hold a 60fps lock for him and has increased GPU usage, maybe suggests it does have a true simulator feedback loop on the most recent update for PC.

christ almighty

 

[BouncyFrag]

It looks horrible on the Series S, specially on perfomance mode:

Quality mode is a little better:

It's such a downgrade compared to Forza Horizon 5, which plays and looks great on the Series S.

It's really bad. I love FH5 on my XSS and bailed on FM quickly. I do want to give GT7 a look the next time it's on sale or gets on PS+.

 

[BigLee74]

Some Forza Motorsport photomode. To be honest, it looks good, but I don't think it's really advanced much graphically over Forza 7.

 

[Bunta_Fujiwara]

Some Forza Motorsport photomode. To be honest, it looks good, but I don't think it's really advanced much graphically over Forza 7.

Honestly looks pretty horrible in some of these shots

 

[nosoynadie22]

Some Forza Motorsport photomode. To be honest, it looks good, but I don't think it's really advanced much graphically over Forza 7.

In this image everything in the background looks very bad, can someone compare the drawing distance in GT7 photo mode?

 

[freefornow]

Nah. This thread is nearly as good as the Did Bethesda Lie About Starfield thread.

Not even close. This thread argues back and forth about RT. The other thread actually has real world examples of RT (Real Tits).
Also, cant fap to this thread.
Well..........................

 

[Elysium44]

I've played on the Series S a little bit now. The graphics are indeed disappointing, and it genuinely looks inferior to 2013's Forza Motorsport 5 in some ways which is more vibrant, sharper and even at times more detailed (eg. much better grass, more dense crowds in places). Comparing the Mazda race car again, FM5 shows bulbs inside the headlights but FM2023 doesn't. Not only is there barely any generational leap, in some ways it's gone backwards. It typically looks dull (or washed out), soft and muddy.

 

[BigLee74]

The grass textures in Forza Motorsport are truly horrendous. We are taking Xbox 360 levels of texture. I can't believe that was necessary.

 

[Taycan77]

Talking of trackside details, smoke drifting across the track from the barbecues is always a nice touch.

 

[Magik85]

 

[CoreyFlawless]

I been questioning his videos. Cause I swear forza doesn't look like that in person. Like something is off. Way off

 

[Imtjnotu]

These are really good.

Trying my hand at some bonnet view pics for the first time, I never use this mode while playing. Kinda disorienting to me.

I can tell the graphics are bad in this because the ray tracing shows "press y to rewind"

No where in the real world does this show up so the tray tracing is reflecting nothing.

Spoiler

I'm fucking kidding

 

[Emet_bp]

I know you are joking aboit the text but I'm suprised that many people still think that reflections on the road and on the hood camera are made using Ray Tracing. These are just Screen Space Reflections.

 

[skyfinch]

I been questioning his videos. Cause I swear forza doesn't look like that in person. Like something is off. Way off

I've watched quite a few of this guy's videos. It's say series X, but I swear it looks like series S.

 

[PaintTinJr]

I know you are joking aboit the text but I'm suprised that many people still think that reflections on the road and on the hood camera are made using Ray Tracing. These are just Screen Space Reflections.

I'm still not sure about that, but it was what I thought at first because the quality of the reflection seemed to be at the high quality of the frame's non-reflective surfaces and completely indifferent to the distances of the object within the refection, as is indicative of SSR.

I do wonder if this is a combination of RT reflections providing real RT for any reflected ray (Signed distance field software RT) in bonnet camera on the car wings, to provide coherent offscreen reflected geometry with normal SSR on the car bonnet. Meaning it technically is doing RT reflections, but not for most users and not for most of the reflections that would hamper performance. However, the 30fps mode being the game's baseline could be using SDF software RT for any reflected rays from very close objects being combined with SSR for most reflected objects, but the high texture quality of the bonnet reflections suggest it is just SSR IMO.

 

[Emet_bp]

It is 100% SSR. FM's RT is very basic and is used in TPP camera and during replays (+ menus). Basically only cars are included in RT reflections and models in these are very low detailed. Surroundings are reflected using cube maps.
Btw. Even RT self reflections on cars are very limited and don't include many car elements.

To be honest I don't understand why they didn't give more options in the PC version.

 

[benzy]

How are you constantly wrong? benzy used equivalent modes for both games.

Yeah I used Performance mode since GT7 runs a consistent native 4k. FM8 uses dynamic res in all modes on Series X, but DF said Performance mode hits 4k mostly, while Performance RT drops pretty hard when in motion. The resolution drop and artifacts in Performance RT mode can get nasty to the point where I preferred Performance mode anyway.

performance RT

performance

 

[CoreyFlawless]

I've watched quite a few of this guy's videos. It's say series X, but I swear it looks like series S.

Same, I'm like, either that the s or low pc settings. He also seem to use the afternoon sun and clear setting. For the worst lighting. Even then with that knowing, it's still seems way way off. I just assume troll video.

 

[Feel Like I'm On 42]

It is 100% SSR. FM's RT is very basic and is used in TPP camera and during replays (+ menus). Basically only cars are included in RT reflections and models in these are very low detailed. Surroundings are reflected using cube maps.
Btw. Even RT self reflections on cars are very limited and don't include many car elements.

To be honest I don't understand why they didn't give more options in the PC version.

The RT in this game on Series X is a bad joke. To the point where it feels like we were lied to. It seems like it was only there as a marketing trick.

Fuck Turn 10

 

[adamsapple]

It is 100% SSR. FM's RT is very basic and is used in TPP camera and during replays (+ menus). Basically only cars are included in RT reflections and models in these are very low detailed. Surroundings are reflected using cube maps.
Btw. Even RT self reflections on cars are very limited and don't include many car elements.

To be honest I don't understand why they didn't give more options in the PC version.

Some points in this post are wrong.

- Forza's RT is not just reflections, it also includes RTAO. This is in both Perf RT and Quality modes.
- Reflections are done with a mix of SSR/Planar/RT depending on what's being reflected.
- RT reflections in Perf RT mode are used for car self-reflections and other cars.
- In Quality mode RT reflections also reflect some trackside details along with the above.

Via Digital Foundry.

 

[Emet_bp]

Some points in this post are wrong.

- Forza's RT is not just reflections, it also includes RTAO. This is in both Perf RT and Quality modes.
- Reflections are done with a mix of SSR/Planar/RT depending on what's being reflected.
- RT reflections in Perf RT mode are used for car self-reflections and other cars.
- In Quality mode RT reflections also reflect some trackside details along with the above.

Via Digital Foundry.

- RTAO - I know, but I was talking just about the reflections.
- by mix of the SSR/Planar/RT it's also true ro what I have said. Hood cam uses SSR and 3rd person cameras use mix of planar reflections (I meant that but said cube maps) and RT for cars.
- that's true by I was just talking about self reflections and their quality and... precision.
- again true but also again I was talking just about the cars

 

[PaintTinJr]

Some points in this post are wrong.

- Forza's RT is not just reflections, it also includes RTAO. This is in both Perf RT and Quality modes.
- Reflections are done with a mix of SSR/Planar/RT depending on what's being reflected.
- RT reflections in Perf RT mode are used for car self-reflections and other cars.
- In Quality mode RT reflections also reflect some trackside details along with the above.

Via Digital Foundry.

Well given you can't actually accept that a unified racing game design with a 30fps mode is not a 60fps simulator, why not - rather than linking to an article that reads like marketing piece with John's name on it - annotate this previous image with those RT techniques?

Putting aside the 30fps mode making it an arcade racer, a simulator gets played in a realistic simulated first person camera as it is main camera modes, so for the game to actually have those RT features in any morally honest marketed way, they should be present in normal gameplay, and as myslef and Emet_bp have been discussing the reflections and lighting in that shot don't look like RT, but SSR, presumably with regular SSAO, but am happy for you to annotate the image to enlighten us and make the strongest argument for actual RT in the game.

 

[djjinx2]

Well given you can't actually accept that a unified racing game design with a 30fps mode is not a 60fps simulator, why not - rather than linking to an article that reads like marketing piece with John's name on it - annotate this previous image with those RT techniques?

Putting aside the 30fps mode making it an arcade racer, a simulator gets played in a realistic simulated first person camera as it is main camera modes, so for the game to actually have those RT features in any morally honest marketed way, they should be present in normal gameplay, and as myslef and Emet_bp have been discussing the reflections and lighting in that shot don't look like RT, but SSR, presumably with regular SSAO, but am happy for you to annotate the image to enlighten us and make the strongest argument for actual RT in the game.

Please don't be offended but you sir do chat some shit.

Arcade racer is very disrespectful, and regardless if it has a 30fps mode. The game is very much 60fps. Not one player I have seen even uses the 30fps mode. Was probs left in for Series S more than anything