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[SlimySnake]

The quality was already low without a union.

starfield is their most polished game though.

 

[wipeout364]

The major problems with unions in my opinion is that they protect bad workers and penalize new ones. Layoffs will now be seniority based not talent based and doing well at your job is not rewarded, following the union line which is usually work slow to force overtime(double time) pay. I have seen several examples of senior union members threatening new employees for working too fast and “making them look bad”.

I do think unions serve an important role in dangerous or abusive workplaces but in my opinion the trade off is significant and mainly affects young workers fresh into the field.

 

[Ceadeus]

What means unionize please? How is it a bad thing?

 

[SmokedMeat]

starfield is their most polished game though.

Polish is great, but it doesn’t mean much if the game itself isn’t very good to begin with.

 

[feynoob]

What means unionize please? How is it a bad thing?

Unionize means companies cant screw you.
Its bad for old people because they hate that people dont like getting exploited by companies, like what happened to them.

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

The major problems with unions in my opinion is that they protect bad workers and penalize new ones. Layoffs will now be seniority based not talent based and doing well at your job is not rewarded, following the union line which is usually work slow to force overtime(double time) pay. I have seen several examples of senior union members threatening new employees for working too fast and “making them look bad”.

I do think unions serve an important role in dangerous or abusive workplaces but in my opinion the trade off is significant and mainly affects young workers fresh into the field.

They don't protect bad workers. They protect due process before you fire bad workers. If the consequence of that is it takes longer to fire them then that's completely fine.

 

[Gp1]

starfield is their most polished game though.

And one of the most underwhelming games of their entire industry.

 

[Ceadeus]

Unionize means companies cant screw you.
Its bad for old people because they hate that people dont like getting exploited by companies, like what happened to them.

Okay!! Yes I just translated in french. Being unionized isn't a bad thing at all, they've got themselves a group to fight for them to get better work conditions.

 

[hussar16]

seems like everybody who ends up under MS's grasp ends up wanting to unionize

Probably because they know being under a massive corporation like Microsoft anything can happen and they don't have any choice and it passed threw because even the heads of the bethesda knew this

 

[Haint]

What means unionize please? How is it a bad thing?

I means high 6 figure employees who already take 10 years to ship a game have formed a protection racket that barrs MS from firing blue haired DEI hires for trying to make every character a black trans lesbian. Now they're free to make every character a black trans lesbian and its illegal for MS to fire them for it, they will all make $300,000 a year, and take 20 years to ship a game.

 

[ReyBrujo]

 

[SlimySnake]

I believe that the layoffs are more intrinsically linked to the nature of the projects than anything else. So of course, when you have a pandemic holding back projects, along with larger projects failing. It's logical that cuts will come.

I could see that if you are an independent developer. But if you are part of a big publisher like EA, Sony, Ubisoft and especially MS now that they own half the industry, you can easily move teams to other studios who might be in the latter stages of their games needing QA and engineering support.

There is zero reason to layoff people right after shipping the game only to hire them back a few years later. especially in the modern remote work force where everyone is remote anyway.

 

[Ceadeus]

I means high 6 figure employees who already take 10 years to ship a game have formed a protection racket that barrs MS from firing blue haired DEI hires for trying to make every character a black trans lesbian. Now they're free to make every character a black trans lesbian and its illegal for MS to fire them for it, they will all make $300,000 a year, and take 20 years to ship a game.

They can't afford to suck this much. There's a limit to how bad things can be supported.

Anyway I'm certainly not putting any thoughts or energy in this situation
Bethesda's better days are behind.

 

[WoJ]

Retaliatory firing for unionization efforts is a crime and violation of the National Labor Relations Act.

That doesn't mean it doesn't happen. There are lots of reasons that companies can come up with that lead to termination of employment that don't explicitly say "we're firing you for unionizing". Those types of terminations happen all the time in corporate America. Not specifically for unionizing. There are also laws that say you can't fire someone for taking FMLA leave or other things like that. Corporations get rid of problem employees who, in their minds, abuse FMLA leave all the time. And they do it without lawsuits.

Unions have their place, but not really in white collar America for employees making six figures.

 

[BattleScar]

I means high 6 figure employees who already take 10 years to ship a game have formed a protection racket that barrs MS from firing blue haired DEI hires for trying to make every character a black trans lesbian. Now they're free to make every character a black trans lesbian and its illegal for MS to fire them for it, they will all make $300,000 a year, and take 20 years to ship a game.

Lol. This is some insane copium.

 

[The Pleasure]

You’d think the benefits and compensation at Microsoft would be at a level where nobody would need a union but I guess not.

Well after the window 11 fiasco, they need to cover their ass.

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

That doesn't mean it doesn't happen. There are lots of reasons that companies can come up with that lead to termination of employment that don't explicitly say "we're firing you for unionizing". Those types of terminations happen all the time in corporate America. Not specifically for unionizing. There are also laws that say you can't fire someone for taking FMLA leave or other things like that. Corporations get rid of problem employees who, in their minds, abuse FMLA leave all the time. And they do it without lawsuits.

Unions have their place, but not really in white collar America for employees making six figures.

They don't even need to lie about it. They'll get a pathetic little fine and that's about it. Business as usual.

Until company executives start facing criminal liability you'll always have this fuckery going on.

 

[StueyDuck]

I mean if MS wanna close ya... its gonna happen.

Youre never gonna beat MS lawyers

 

[Duchess]

You'd still struggle to be able to afford a modest single family home on that salary.

In the UK? Nah, there's still plenty of houses to be bought with that income. Not in the big cities, mind.

 

[BattleScar]

In the UK? Nah, there's still plenty of houses to be bought with that income. Not in the big cities, mind.

In the US.
In the UK, you could probably buy an average home in towns, but cities no chance. Good luck earning £90k anywhere but a major city anyway.
Wages in the UK have been depressed for the last 20 years. And with our weakening currency, the cost of living hasn't remained low enough for the lower relative salaries/wages to be ok. House prices and cost of living has jumped massively, but companies still want to pay us fuck all.

US employees with the same job title in real terms probably earn anywhere from 50-100% more than their UK counterparts. Which is laughable.

 

[wipeout364]

They don't protect bad workers. They protect due process before you fire bad workers. If the consequence of that is it takes longer to fire them then that's completely fine.

I work in a union shop. They protect bad workers. It is extremely difficult to get rid of people who have significant seniority. Unless they are not showing up for work, doing something criminal or stealing you are out of luck. You will will not be able to get rid of low performance employees and they will continue to abuse every benefit they can and get raises due to time in job not their performance.

Edit: I am not saying the majority of people are bad, most are great but unions spend most of their time protecting the crappy outliers and they get the greatest Advantage from a union environment.

 

[Solarstrike]

Game prices:

 

[Shifty1897]

I work in a union shop. They protect bad workers. It is extremely difficult to get rid of people who have significant seniority. Unless they are not showing up for work, doing something criminal or stealing you are out of luck. You will will not be able to get rid of low performance employees and they will continue to abuse every benefit they can and get raises due to time in job not their performance.

Exactly this. I was outperforming the whole team but couldn't get a promotion because there were people doing the bare minimum with more tenure than me, union rules. The only time I've agreed with unionization was for medical residents, because they are free labor to the hospitals and the hospitals know the residents aren't going to quit after borrowing $300,000 and spending 4 years in med school. Without a union they can be forced to work 100+ hour weeks, 48 hour shifts, just absolutely crazy stuff that is unsafe for patients too.

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

I work in a union shop. They protect bad workers. It is extremely difficult to get rid of people who have significant seniority. Unless they are not showing up for work, doing something criminal or stealing you are out of luck. You will will not be able to get rid of low performance employees and they will continue to abuse every benefit they can and get raises due to time in job not their performance.

Edit: I am not saying the majority of people are bad, most are great but unions spend most of their time protecting the crappy outliers and they get the greatest Advantage from a union environment.

What do you mean significant seniority? Senior leadership teams? Failing upwards is a common trope with them with or without unions.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

starfield is their most polished game though.

It's also one of their worst games.

 

[XXL]

starfield is their most polished game though.

It's a polished turd and it wasn't that polished, it still had a ton of bugs.

No clue what shape it's in now.

I played Oblivion and Fallout 3 last year and they are both a much better expierence overall than Starfield.

I spent more time just wandering around in those games, than I did in general with Starfield before I quit, because I just couldn't take it anymore.

 

[El Muerto]

Good for them. I worked for a big company, and 80% of was contractors. A lot of big companies everywhere are contracting work to avoid paying good wages and benefits. We had no definite path to become a full-fledged employee of the company and as a contractor we could be fired anytime for any reason. With a union they'll have protection and benefits. This should increase production too.

 

[Kings Field]

Unions are a cancer, at least in healthcare they are. The unions “negotiate” with the company and usually fall flat on all of their promises and expect people to be happy with getting a 0.25 raise every year or six months while also increasing union dues.

I worked at my hospital before the union came in, albeit im a PA and these only effected the nurses but there was certain sections of the hospital that opted to not join and they are doing far better than the unionized nurses financially, vacation time, sick time, bonuses, overtime incentives etc etc.

One common theme I see is the lazy bringing down the good workers and making life much harder for them by calling off constantly, not pulling their own weight on the floors, taking extra breaks when some don’t get any, etc. and guess what happens when it is brought up to the union rep? Nothing, because the more employees under the union, the better for the union.

This is a portion of my experience of 18 years in healthcare dealing with unions and their uselessness. Not to mention their sickening political pandering and shoving democrats down everyone’s throats.


Not sure how it is for this sector, hopefully it is better.


Edit- I’d also like to add that if you don’t think the union is in bed with the companies, you’re fooling yourself.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Unions are meant to protect workers, and always gun for highest wages possible. Even if a company is verge of bankruptcy, doesnt matter. They'd rather roll the dice on high wages and a company shutting down than people taking a 25% pay cut to survive.

You can tell thats their main focus since union pay is based off tiers. And typically the longer youve been working there the higher you get paid. Combined with job security, and you can see that if you become a member it's a cash cow job. Hard to get fired unless you do some tremendously bad. Not once do you ever hear about improving service or quality in return for extra pay. It's probably the only thing in the world where you get more simply due to being their the longest. That would like students in senior year high school getting As whie grade 9 gets Cs because the seniors have been in school longer so they should get the better marks.

Regardless, every comapny is different. Some unions good, some bad. Some management good, some bad too.

But one thing is 100% true (prove me wrong), is that even junk workers are protected by unions.

I can see why unions want to protect their members though. They are typically replaceable and/or the work they do is seasonal or project based. So they dont want management hiring/firing them based on talent or roller coaster sales or development timing.

Our company hires extra contracted tax people to help out with year end submissions. No different really than any person going to H&R Block to help them with their income tax forms. It's a temp kind of job service where they arent needed 365 days a year.

But to me, that's on you. If you cant hold a steady job where a company doesnt see youre worth keeping around for other projects, it kind of shows youre not that valuable. Guess what? Most office jobs aret perfectly stable in work either. There's busy times and boring down times. You dont need to unionize to get paid well or have job security because the nature of the jobs are flexible too. Nobody goes ape shit complaining they got to do a different role or task if the company needs you to work on something else. A union would.

 

[kyussman]

Bethesda have been on a downward spiral for years now.....that ship ain't turning around.

 

[WoJ]

What do you mean significant seniority? Senior leadership teams? Failing upwards is a common trope with them with or without unions.

My understanding is that in the context of unions significant seniority basically just means you've been with the company a long time and because of the union contract you can show up with no pants on and not get fired. No matter how crappy of a worker you are.

I'm using hyperbole obviously, but you get the idea. It isn't tied to any type of production or leadership.

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

My understanding is that in the context of unions significant seniority basically just means you've been with the company a long time and because of the union contract you can show up with no pants on and not get fired. No matter how crappy of a worker you are.

I'm using hyperbole obviously, but you get the idea. It isn't tied to any type of production or leadership.

So, you mean less than x amount of years of service you can be sacked for no reason. More than x amount of years you need to go through due process before you can be sacked?

Just sounds like standard european employment laws. We don't even need a union for that here.

 

[Shadowstar39]

Let's take the lowest amount of compensation there, $119k, and convert that to GBP - £92,000.

Using a UK government take home pay calculator, this works out at about £64,000, after tax. Or about £5,300 a month.

Nothing to sneeze at.

It's a ton of money. People who make 6 figures have no clue what it's like scrapping by, or if they do they forget.

I am still making in the 40-50k range doing IT for over 15 years. I just refuse to change jobs as working from home full time is worth more than a new position, added responsibilities and a 1 hour each way commute. So I get peisly 4-5% raises each year and live with it. Problem is wages aren't keeping up with inflation so it feels like I'm not getting any relief. If we unionize we get kicked out the door.

 

[SF Kosmo]

Unions will naturally cater to mediocrity and high end producers will move on to other firms. Overall product quality and creativity will suffer

It’s the death kneel for white collar production.

Do you really not recognize how the insanely high turnover and instability of the game industry is a major problem for production?

So many people bounce off the game industry and leave after a few years because they have families to support and other industries pay more and offer better stability for the same work. Because of this it's really hard to get and retain experienced talent in the game industry. Especially because a lot of these skills like coding, design, and production are highly transferrable to other industries.

Giving workers a competitive wage for their highly skilled and specialized talents and benefits that allow them to stay in the industry and raise families do not "breed mediocrity," where are you even getting that from? This is how you keep talent.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

It's a ton of money. People who make 6 figures have no clue what it's like scrapping by, or if they do they forget.

I am still making in the 40-50k range doing IT for over 15 years. I just refuse to change jobs as working from home full time is worth more than a new position, added responsibilities and a 1 hour each way commute. So I get peisly 4-5% raises each year and live with it. Problem is wages aren't keeping up with inflation so it feels like I'm not getting any relief. If we unionize we get kicked out the door.

In this Bethesda case, it's very likely more about job security than salaries. I dont think in this case with salaries like that they are banding together hoping they all crack $200k+.

What happened was Starfield bombed in sales and boredom compared to ES and Fallout games, so they are scared shitless they will be fired for a lacking product. So they want guaranteed job security no matter how bad Starfield or their next game is.

 

[Toons]

I means high 6 figure employees who already take 10 years to ship a game have formed a protection racket that barrs MS from firing blue haired DEI hires for trying to make every character a black trans lesbian. Now they're free to make every character a black trans lesbian and its illegal for MS to fire them for it, they will all make $300,000 a year, and take 20 years to ship a game.

See? This is exactly what I'm talking about

Multibillio corporations have convinced the common man to defend them because of the idea that some people they don't like might just get to suffer as a result.

Its insane

 

[feynoob]

Unions will naturally cater to mediocrity and high end producers will move on to other firms. Overall product quality and creativity will suffer

It’s the death kneel for white collar production.

Lets kiss companies who wants to screw their employees, because the quality will suffer if they fight back.

 

[Toons]

I work in a union shop. They protect bad workers. It is extremely difficult to get rid of people who have significant seniority. Unless they are not showing up for work, doing something criminal or stealing you are out of luck. You will will not be able to get rid of low performance employees and they will continue to abuse every benefit they can and get raises due to time in job not their performance.

Edit: I am not saying the majority of people are bad, most are great but unions spend most of their time protecting the crappy outliers and they get the greatest Advantage from a union environment.

So the company can improve its vetting process and who they hire, which will lead to higher quality workers being chosen.

Everyone wins. Don't wanna be stuck with bad workers, don't slack off on the hiring phase.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

So the company can improve its vetting process and who they hire, which will lead to higher quality workers being chosen.

Everyone wins. Don't wanna be stuck with bad workers, don't slack off on the hiring phase.

And what if the worker is great in an interview, gets the job and sucks afterwards, then what? Why should companies be handcuffed to bad workers?

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Americans are heavily brainwashed to hate unions but it's instructive to realize that both parties are like this and in reality you don't have any good choices no matter who you think you'll vote for

 

[ReyBrujo]

What happened was Starfield bombed in sales and boredom compared to ES and Fallout games, so they are scared shitless they will be fired for a lacking product.

I assume unionizing takes years of discussions, it's not something that is "triggered" because of an event so I'm guessing they have been unhappy with the company for quite a while. When you don't have a job, your priority is to get one. When you have one your priority is to make a good salary. When you have one your priority is on work conditions. Some workers might want a union on the second step, Bethesta wanted it on the third step.

My understanding is that in the context of unions significant seniority basically just means you've been with the company a long time and because of the union contract you can show up with no pants on and not get fired. No matter how crappy of a worker you are.

No idea how the US law works but I guess it should be similar to the ones down here in Argentina: you can be fired anytime during the introduction stage or internship (which used to last 3 months, now lasts 8) but once you are a full employee you cannot be fired without compensation unless there has been at least a warning before, that you have repeated your offense and that you got fined or suspended for that offense and you still reiterate it. So, anyone from 1 year to 20 years has exactly the same protection. If you don't wear pants you will get a warning that it's not appropriate. If you don't wear it on the following week you might get a second warning or a suspension. If you don't wear pants on returning you might get a third and final warning or a second suspension and if you still don't wear pants you get fired. Firing is an extreme measure that should be taken only after other approaches have been exhausted.

Now, the company could fire you effective immediate for whatever reason (refusing to reboot a computer or trying to rape a girl in the restroom) but unless there had been previous attempts at correcting the behavior they would have to pay a severance package. In certain cases there will be a legal procedure (like the aforementioned rape attempt, or stealing money or code from the company, etc) where a court might decide it was justified but at least down here in these cases the company simple tells the employee to quit or they will make the case public effectively killing any hopes for getting a new job.

Down here unions are well protected by law so they end up being corrupt. That's the problem when giving them too much power. And every union has to have a representative within the company called a delegate or deputy who cannot be fired under any circumstance because it would attempt against the union itself no matter what they do unless there is a prosecution process. They got immunity inside the company just as a foreign ambassador, and that's where the abuses occur, they can break computers with important data or lock production down or puncture the tires of every vehicle on the company to prevent employees to work and next day they would return to the job as if nothing had happened. That's why the IT sector doesn't want to unionize.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Americans are heavily brainwashed to hate unions but it's instructive to realize that both parties are like this and in reality you don't have any good choices no matter who you think you'll vote for

To me, if more people in the world put in better effort and attitude, youd be more productive and a company will keep you more.

The reason why companies fire people or outsource is because they believe they can still get the job done withe less people or cheaper people. Even if means outsourcing to a group of people half way around the world and trying to sort out time zones or setting up new costly factories and training new people taking years, it can still be worth it in the long run.

Most people are not unionized and tons of people make good wages. If the world was that barebones to the last nickel, every company would just hire new graduates at whatever salary they'll accept looking for a job. And if they quit, just find other people who will work for as close to minimum wage as possible.

That's not reality and never has been. Thats because companies will open up the wallet and pay if anyone is good enough. If someone is nervous they'll get outsourced by someone because they did a bad job or some random guy 5000 miles away who speaks another language but can do a job just as good or better than them, it means they arent a great employee to begin with. And thats why they want job protection.

 

[Mortisfacio]

The major problems with unions in my opinion is that they protect bad workers and penalize new ones. Layoffs will now be seniority based not talent based and doing well at your job is not rewarded, following the union line which is usually work slow to force overtime(double time) pay. I have seen several examples of senior union members threatening new employees for working too fast and “making them look bad”.

I do think unions serve an important role in dangerous or abusive workplaces but in my opinion the trade off is significant and mainly affects young workers fresh into the field.

I worked government union (IT, for a major California county) for 5 years before I left. Two of the most egregious cases:

1.) Guy was looking at adult sites for hours per day, on a county device, on county network. Boss tried to fire him. Union said it was a first offense, he should get a written. Management pushed to terminate. Union counter sued. Union won, guy got a settlement payout.

2.) Help Desk tech was calling his own desk from his own phone to keep his line busy, so he wouldn't get any calls. Management pushed to fire him. Union pushed back. He got a written warning and kept his job.

In private/non-union, these people should have been fired and that should have been the end of it. Instead, the taxpayers foot the bill. My personal experience, I absolutely hate unions.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

I worked government union (IT, for a major California county) for 5 years before I left. Two of the most egregious cases:

1.) Guy was looking at adult sites for hours per day, on a county device, on county network. Boss tried to fire him. Union said it was a first offense, he should get a written. Management pushed to terminate. Union counter sued. Union won, guy got a settlement payout.

2.) Help Desk tech was calling his own desk from his own phone to keep his line busy, so he wouldn't get any calls. Management pushed to fire him. Union pushed back. He got a written warning and kept his job.

In private/non-union, these people should have been fired and that should have been the end of it. Instead, the taxpayers foot the bill. My personal experience, I absolutely hate unions.

I dont think most unions jobs even have annual goals or target for improvement (employee evaluation time). The point of those meetings (including half year check in) is to see if someone is doing a good job as per agreed to discussion with their bosses. Its not just about the current job, but also about stretching yourself to do better, achieve more and set yourself up for promotion and other jobs if someone is interested in other jobs. It's about doing a good job and not trying to scrape by or do lousy (PIP).

My sis in law is a union nurse in Ontario and she doesn't even have these check ins with her supervisor. She just does what she does for like 18 years and has zero feedback or discussion if she's even doing a good job or not. She even laughs when she hit the 10 year mark since I guess it might mean hitting a decade is some kind of magic mark, but she even laughed when wed bring up lay offs (rest of us in fam tree work non-union). If the gov wants to lay off people the new people with less seniority get fired first, since nobody beings up job performance. It's all about years of service, not attitude or performance that determines employment and salaries.

Wacky shit.

 

[feynoob]

I worked government union (IT, for a major California county) for 5 years before I left. Two of the most egregious cases:

1.) Guy was looking at adult sites for hours per day, on a county device, on county network. Boss tried to fire him. Union said it was a first offense, he should get a written. Management pushed to terminate. Union counter sued. Union won, guy got a settlement payout.

That is their fault for not giving him a warning and blocking the adult site. Every tech company blocks those sites from the network.

2.) Help Desk tech was calling his own desk from his own phone to keep his line busy, so he wouldn't get any calls. Management pushed to fire him. Union pushed back. He got a written warning and kept his job.

how many times did he do it? Couldnt they write him a warning everytime he does that? That would have saved them time.

In private/non-union, these people should have been fired and that should have been the end of it. Instead, the taxpayers foot the bill. My personal experience, I absolutely hate unions.

Nah, the company was lazy with their protocol and these employees benefited from that. If anything, its the employer that needs to fix that shit asap.

 

[feynoob]

I dont think most unions jobs even have annual goals or target for improvement (employee evaluation time). The point of those meetings (including half year check in) is to see if someone is doing a good job as per agreed to discussion with their bosses. Its not just about the current job, but also about stretching yourself to do better, achieve more and set yourself up for promotion and other jobs if someone is interested in other jobs. It's about doing a good job and not trying to scrape by or do lousy (PIP).

My sis in law is a union nurse in Ontario and she doesn't even have these check ins with her supervisor. She just does what she does for like 18 years and has zero feedback or discussion if she's even doing a good job or not. She even laughs when she hit the 10 year mark since I guess it might mean hitting a decade is some kind of magic mark, but she even laughed when wed bring up lay offs (rest of us in fam tree work non-union). If the gov wants to lay off people the new people with less seniority get fired first, since nobody beings up job performance. It's all about years of service, not attitude or performance that determines employment and salaries.

Wacky shit.

The real issue is the upper management make too much mess and blame the little guys.

I seen management do too much shit from different jobs that I had. Most of the time, they blamed us for their mess because we are not meeting the shitty requirement that they set up.

 

[ReBurn]

Most very wealthy don’t actually pay much income tax. The income is written off as losses, depreciation and so on using many loopholes in US tax laws.

The really wealthy just keep taking loans against their assets, paying them back through numerous tax provisions and repeating that cycle. There is no “income” to tax as far as US laws go. That’s the point. Your numbers for how taxes are paid don’t really reflect reality of effect of taxation on different income brackets or that assets don’t count as income.

Yea, Elon in this case had to pay out caps gain tax in this one year because of his incredibly dumb decisions around Twitter. That’s not normal for him or any other wealthy person.

The super wealthy can't write off personal losses and depreciation of assets on their personal income taxes any more than a middle class taxpayer can. If they sell a house for less than they paid for it they don't get to write that loss off of their personal income taxes if it's owned as a personal asset.

The way rich people get to take the writeoffs is that they rarely own their most valuable assets as personal property. They keep money, real property and other valuable assets in a corporate entity to protect them from excessive taxation and loss from adverse actions, things like lawsuits since super rich people get sued more than the average person.

The average Joe can form an LLC for a couple hundred bucks to manage their estate the same way that the mega rich do. For most people it isn't worth it since they're living off of their income instead of living off of the value of their assets. But it is still pretty common for people with much lower net worth than the mega rich to do the same things as the mega rich to protect what assets they have.

 

[SlimeGooGoo]

.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

The super wealthy can't write off personal losses and depreciation of assets on their personal income taxes any more than a middle class taxpayer can. If they sell a house for less than they paid for it they don't get to write that loss off of their personal income taxes if it's owned as a personal asset.

The way rich people get to take the writeoffs is that they rarely own their most valuable assets as personal property. They keep money, real property and other valuable assets in a corporate entity to protect them from excessive taxation and loss from adverse actions, things like lawsuits since super rich people get sued more than the average person.

The average Joe can form an LLC for a couple hundred bucks to manage their estate the same way that the mega rich do. For most people it isn't worth it since they're living off of their income instead of living off of the value of their assets. But it is still pretty common for people with much lower net worth than the mega rich to do the same things as the mega rich to protect what assets they have.

Yup.

The best way I'm making money for retirement is investing. And that's stocks and investment properties. Especially true when rates are low. Paying off your house asap is fine and dandy for some people. I'm not paying off my house till I find out I cant make better money other ways, where it gets to a point then it's time to cash out and pay it off. In the meantime, I'll just pay off my mortgage the normal way.

Most people dont understand the concept of opportunity costs.

 

[feynoob]

Most people dont understand the concept of opportunity costs.

They do, they just dont have the means to get it. All it takes is one bad day to screw you forever with debts.

The reality is that you need to be lucky and have connection. For example, there was a dude that spent more than 100 bitcoins on pizza. That guy could have been a millionare by now.

6 years ago, i did 10$ stock for funsies. Lost 90% of that money. Imagine If I spent 10k on those stocks. I would have lost my money. The game is beneficial when you have large amount of money. Less than 50k and you are seeing a massive loss, compared to gains.