Support NeoGAF

[DanielG165]

From the perusing of this thread, most of us don't know how game engines inherently work lol. The lead designer didn't say anything here that was incorrect. Bethesda games have systems in place that other open world games simply… Don't. That doesn't make those other games bad nor inferior whatsoever, it's simply a different in design principles and goals. In a Bethesda game, let's take Starfield, I can go up to a book, pick it up, drop it on the floor or on a table and leave, travel to a myriad of different locales across the "galaxy", come back 20 hours later… And the book will still be right where I left it.

Other games simply don't have that level of persistence, nor do most of them have the level of NPC scheduling and agency that Bethesda games do, outside of stuff that comes from Rockstar. So, for the lead developer to state that their games are graphically intensive… They're correct. Graphics are far more complex than just the pretty moving picture you see onscreen.

 

[LordCBH]

I really don't mind them in stuff like oblivion and skyrim, but Starfield felt completely ridiculous since it legit felt like a load screen simulator.

 

[Reizo Ryuu]

So watch who you are talking to.

 

[Giallo Corsa]

games could also temporarily install data on the hard drive. if you boot up Chaos Theory for the first time, the initial load into the menu will take a long time, because the game is installing to the harddrive in the background.
the data will remain there until another game overwrites it. if it was overwritten you'll have the long load screen again.

Ninja Gaiden 1 also did this on the OG Xbox

 

[Skifi28]

The world is tranistioning away from loading screens. Seems like an engine limitation at this point and you either have to evolve or fade away. Yeah, you can stack 150 sandwiches, but I'd rather have a more seamless world and stable game instead. Skyrim still crashes regularly even on modern systems and the Oblivion remake is a fucking mess. I'd like to think that's not necessary going forward with their games.

 

[Revolutionary]

ha! That's fascinating. I played MANY hours on the og xbox in Morrowind, I don't remember crazy long loading screens, but that was like 25yrs ago so..............

I remember how long the loading screens were. It's what finally pushed me to save up for a PC that could play Morrowind.
And I never played a Bethesda game on console again.

 

[Shifty1897]

I believe that for the old games, but there's absolutely 0 reason for a game to have loading screens anymore after the first load on boot now that SSD read speeds are the standard.

 

[Sooner]

Keeping track of every piece of trash in the world is not a good game design when it comes with so many drawbacks.

 

[Hawk The Slayer]

Agreed since Oblivion and Fallout 3, Bethesda use radiant A.I which are way more advance and immersive than every other open world or RPG game. They aren't just randomly generated like what most other world game uses. So it's a good tradeoff. Makes the game feel more alive in both cities and in the wilderness.

 

[Ar¢tos]

In 20 years TES 8 (still made with Creation Engine) will release with loading screens because "it needs to keep track of every single object that was moved" and there will still be gamers defending it...

 

[Puscifer]

Wasn't it the case that the original Xbox version of Morrowind would stealthily reboot the system in the middle of load screens to free up resources?

Yep! Apparently they had to keep that quiet

 

[ChuckeRearmed]

I wonder how it can be addressed outside of flooding the memory with data. I recall that Open Cities mode of Skyrim used a really large memory footprint.

In 20 years TES 8 (still made with Creation Engine) will release with loading screens because "it needs to keep track of every single object that was moved" and there will still be gamers defending it...

It been more than 20 years since Morrowind release, show me a single game that is able to do what Bethesda's engine is doing?

 

[Emedan]

So you are saying that a game with open world like oblivion, where WHOLE WORLD OUTSIDE the cities and building is permanent and you can drop an item ANYWEHERE in the green but adding the red spots (cities/buildings) is too much? Will it overload a memory or what?
What is the interior vs exterior area of this game 60 to 40?
So I can place an item seamless anywhere in the 60% and that's ok and it will stay there but add interiors to this and it's too much?
Sounds like a streaming problem from pcs 25 years ago that had 512mb of ram

To be fair, probably a huge majority of the objects exists in the red spots. Still bullshit reason though.

 

[BigLee74]

I really don't mind them in stuff like oblivion and skyrim, but Starfield felt completely ridiculous since it legit felt like a load screen simulator.

I'm playing Oblivion now, and the loading is every bit as obnoxious as it was in Starfield. The only place it is seemingly load free is traversing the open map outwith the cities.

Same engine, same problem.

At least the loading is fairly quick now we have SSDs in our consoles.

 

[Braag]

I get it, there aren't many games where you can pick up individual forks or whatever other mundane items and toss them into some specific room and the game will always remember exactly how you placed them there. That's mainly why they have loading screens, to keep track of each cell.

Having said that, to me it's not worth all the loading screens. I'm not a huge fan of each item having its own physics and being able to place it anywhere. The clutter in all their games glitches out and flies everywhere every once in a while. And having no loading screens or far less loading screens would be more ideal to me.

However, I think that if they were to remove that aspect from their games now, people would be upset. Because they could hoard random clutter items in their previous game and now they can't.

 

[Ar¢tos]

I wonder how it can be addressed outside of flooding the memory with data. I recall that Open Cities mode of Skyrim used a really large memory footprint.


It been more than 20 years since Morrowind release, show me a single game that is able to do what Bethesda's engine is doing?

Just because you can keep track of every single object that doesn't mean you should be doing it.
Do it only for certain objects and let others reset.

I see I didn't have to wait 20 years for someone to defend TES 8 having loading screens...

 

[Hawking Radiation]

My fucking sides

 

[Fabieter]

It been more than 20 years since Morrowind release, show me a single game that is able to do what Bethesda's engine is doing?

Kdc2 is doing a lot of advanced shit with a seamless open world so there's that.

 

[delishcaek]

Todd getting competition for the best quotes coming out of Bethesda.

I almost choked on my coke.

 

[Shubh_C63]

Also drop an arrow on your first hour, it will still be there 150 hours later.

Has really no game since then has able to achieve this. Because really nothing comes to mind.

I can definitely see why it must eat resources but they have to find a way to be smarter about this. Creation engine feels brute forced if it eats this many resources that you can't have semi decent looking characters.

 

[Soodanim]

He isn't wrong though. Bethesda games still are some of the most complex and dynamic RPGs out there in terms of world reactivity despite their maligned reputation.

Take for instance the Open City mods for Oblivion and Skyrim. They make it so there's no separation between the overworld and the cities. It's great for immersion, but this introduces a lot of unintended interactions such as NPCs normally being confined to a specific area being able to venture beyond it it. Those mods have tons of bugs and require a colossal effort from their developers and can typically not interact with a lot of other mods because they conflict.

NPCs in AC Shadows are nowhere near as dynamic and fleshed out as in Bethesda games. NPCs in Bethesda games are basically player characters that aren't playable and they got almost everything the player character has. They have a class, a name, a schedule, an inventory, sometimes a friend, family, they have a job they must go to, they own houses and stores they open and close at specific hours. It's farcical to compare the brain-dead NPCs in AC games to the ones in Bethesda games.

If Open Cities wasn't a mod but rather how the game was coded from the get go there wouldn't be conflicts, so I don't think that's a valid argument for why Skyrim has loading screens. Nor is a hacked in implementation being less featured and/or robust than a native implementation.

 

[dorkimoe]

starfield 4 load times just to get in your ship...
hogwarts legacy, barely any load times doing anything in the entire world

 

[ChuckeRearmed]

Just because you can keep track of every single object that doesn't mean you should be doing it.
Do it only for certain objects and let others reset.

I see I didn't have to wait 20 years for someone to defend TES 8 having loading screens...

Most of the games (if not all) have load screens or restrictions - a lot of games do not allow you to enter every building (only specific ones), a lot of games hide loading screens behind cutscenes and so on.

 

[Hero of Spielberg]

Personally I'd gladly trade being able to find a wheel of cheese where I left it 10 hours ago for no loading screens.

 

[Little Chicken]

I would rather have Bethesda games as they are then the alternative, which is nothing.

 

[InterMusketeer]

Been playing Oblivion and the loading screens don't bother me at all. The days of 50 sec load times are long gone. I don't mind a second or two between rooms.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

I dont play big RPGs except Bethesda RPGs and ME in recent times. And both kinds of games have loading times.

But what other games have big scope (land, buildings, dungeons etc...) and have no loading screens where everything is seemless?

 

[Fabieter]

I dont play big RPGs except Bethesda RPGs and ME in recent times. And both kinds of game shave loading times.

But what other games have big scope (land, buildings, dungeons etc...) and have no loading screens where everything is seemless?

Kdc2 is probably a league above Bethesda' games are this point.

 

[Sgt.Asher]

Keeping loading zones for item persistence isn't worth it. I don't care if the cheese i left in a cave I'll never return to will last the entire game. Persistence in towns is dumb as well as items disappearing can easily be explained by people cleaning shit up.
I'm playing new vegas right now and a corpse i left in a bar is still there days later, that is more jarring then having it disappearing when leaving the area.

 

[Hero of Spielberg]

Kdc2 is probably a league above Bethesda' games are this point.

From what I've read there is less interactivity in Kcd2 though

 

[TintoConCasera]

But what other games have big scope (land, buildings, dungeons etc...) and have no loading screens where everything is seemless?

Elden Ring, although it's world is 100% static and there's subtle loading screens in the form of elevators...

KCD2 doesn't have any loading screens tho, and the city is an actual medieval city instead of just 2 rows of houses like in Skyrim.

 

[KyoZz]

Has really no game since then has able to achieve this. Because really nothing comes to mind.

I can definitely see why it must eat resources but they have to find a way to be smarter about this. Creation engine feels brute forced if it eats this many resources that you can't have semi decent looking characters.

Right now I can't think of any other game. You have Fallout but it's Bethesda too. As for Skyrim it was mostly a limitation from the consoles (look at the mod open cities for example) but you still had a loading to get into a house. And while I would love to see a fully seamless TES, if that mean they need to sacrifice the routine of NPCs, physics and all that stuff that make TES so special... I'd rather have loadings.
rofif comparing it to AC is a fuckin disgrace, as AC only have lifeless (and bugged) NPCs with no routine or even a proper name, let alone individual dialogues.

 

[EverydayBeast]

All those loading screens are to get into new locations, they give you tips or ideas. Technology has sped up loading screens or even eliminating them.

 

[Buggy Loop]

My opinion is that the item persistence barely add anything of value in the end to keep this archaic loadings.

The dropped to ground items don't even persist more than (iirc) 3 game days. What's the point.

CIG's Star Citizen managed true item persistence for tens of thousands of daily players on a solar scale with no loading screens, its even imo too much and excessive. Bottles of water dropped by players remain there. I think recently they are making "scrubbers" to wipe out the random junk but still the idea is there and surely easy to be done to the scale of 1 player on a relatively small map (compared to a solar system).

So its a questionable feature but also truely a limit of their current engine, tech has been proven to be able to bypass loading screens for that.

 

[Buggy Loop]

rofif comparing it to AC is a fuckin disgrace, as AC only have lifeless (and bugged) NPCs with no routine or even a proper name, let alone individual dialogues.

watch who you are talking to

 

[KyoZz]

watch who you are talking to

 

[BlackTron]

Just load the chunks at a time in thhe background.

This is conceptually true but it's not really a "just do it" situation, it's not that easy a technical achievement, but they can do it.

We were impressed when open-world games "streamed" data into the game around the character without loading screens. It's feasible for this kind of data as well, in fact you could see it as an actual way of SSD making a difference in game design, but...of course not.

 

[nemiroff]

Of course he'd say that. Just an outdated engine is all. KCD2 is evidence enough. For maximum item persistence and no loading screens in ES6, Star Engine might be a perfect fit.

 

[Gp1]

Nah, the only true benefit of loading screens in those games is that its easier to make and combine map mods, but theyll never admit that.

Not exactly. I believe the entire map in these gamebryo games are loaded into cells, which are basically individual chunks of area that combined makes the open world seamless.

Over simplifying it, as long as your modded content doesn't overlap another modded content in the cell, you are good to go.

 

[asdasdasdbb]

Elden Ring, although it's world is 100% static and there's subtle loading screens in the form of elevators...

That has to support the platter drive consoles tho. Other games have the shimmy through cracks, etc.

Fun fact: the PS5 version of ER doesn't have the loading tips screen for some reason.

 

[Grildon Tundy]

How did this thread get to page 2 before someone mentioned Kingdom Come: Deliverance 2?

KCD2 has NPC schedules and interactivity more convincing than Skyrim, has object permanence, and doesn't have loading screens.

What a bold thing for this Bethesda dev to claim in the year of our Lord 2025.

 

[Sinozen]

Bethesda has really fallen behind the rest of the industry. It's honesty very sad.

 

[DownLikeBCPowder]

I mean... I don't see a lot of games doing what they do with TES. Graphics intensive is probably not what I would use (even tho Skyrim was a looker at his time), it probably has more to do with the physics of every object and how you can actually lift them etc... Also drop an arrow on your first hour, it will still be there 150 hours later.

Again, I don't know a lot of game able to do this.

Yeah, people laugh and joke and act like it's "lol whatever", but I'd love to hear about all these other games doing it like Bethesda at the same scale.

 

[Gaiff]

If Open Cities wasn't a mod but rather how the game was coded from the get go there wouldn't be conflicts, so I don't think that's a valid argument for why Skyrim has loading screens. Nor is a hacked in implementation being less featured and/or robust than a native implementation.

If Open Cities was the default, it would have taken twice as long to debug and QA. What would stop an essential NPC from wandering off into the wilderness and get killed by wild animals if some unforeseen event clashed with their pathfinding?

Open Cities being a mod is inconsequential to the fact that having one large map without cells to divide the various parts would result in far more interactions and bugs.

 

[nkarafo]

Everybody who complains about them assumes that it's done because we're lazy or we don't want to follow the modern thinking on stuff

No, you are just not competent enough.

 

[DR3AM]

That's how MS increases engagement time with all the loadings

 

[JaxarGT]

Warhorse Studios has shown how to do immersive open world RPG's with no loading screens with KCD and KCD2. Bethesda has a lot of work to do to even match what they are doing.

 

[Fess]

It has been known for the last 15 years that Bethesda games have loading screens to track objects which admittedly a lot of games just don't do. The question has always been is it worth it.

For me it is. The difference between something like Avowed, where everything is static, to 20 year old Oblivion is staggering, Avowed literally feels like the older game.

But we can always debate if EVERYTHING needs to be left where it was placed. Maybe it's okay to not have Glarthir lie on the ground staring up in the sky with blank eyes in the middle on Skinrad through the whole playthrough?

 

[Come On Tars]

I always heard it was for a couple reasons

1. gamebryo keeps track of every object always and never deletes them. too much crap
2. interiors don't match exteriors

I do think outside starfield they can get rid of a lot of the loading. Even so Starfield seems like they could have hidden the load screens with animations and stuff.

 

[Zannegan]

Keeping loading zones for item persistence isn't worth it. I don't care if the cheese i left in a cave I'll never return to will last the entire game. Persistence in towns is dumb as well as items disappearing can easily be explained by people cleaning shit up.
I'm playing new vegas right now and a corpse i left in a bar is still there days later, that is more jarring then having it disappearing when leaving the area.

Agreed. Although I'd actually prefer a more advanced version of persistence rather than removing the system to smooth out a small inconvenience like loading screens.

Back in the day, items lasting forever was amazing because no one had ever done that before. The mechanic hasn't really evolved since then though, which is a shame. Items should rot and degrade (and eventually disapear). People should pick up valuable or useful items and take them home. Rats should eat the cheeses left in dungeons and towns should remove corpses from their streets (and probably try bring the people who put them there to justice). In short, item persistence should improve to the point where it makes sense

Obviously, you can't simulate all of this in realtime without making the system orders of magnitude more complex. But you could make a system that fakes it. At the very least you should be able to write protocols for disappearing cheeses and bodies getting moved.