Trilobit
Absolutely Cozy
We could have had SO MANY other IPs brought back instead.
Just thinking of how we could have a new SOCOM hurts me.
And a Sly Cooper sequel.
And one new Sly Cooper game. Don't forget Sly Cooper.
Colin Moriarty: Concord cost 400M. Was viewed as the future of PS.
- Thread starter BennyBlanco
- Start date
And a Sly Cooper sequel.
And one new Sly Cooper game. Don't forget Sly Cooper.
BennyBlanco
aka IMurRIVAL69
How? They're not making a game. They're obviously not working on Concord? What are they doing to earn a salary? They're just running up the bill right now.
AmuroChan
Member
No, according to Colin's source, Sony was responsible for $200m of the $400m, not including acquisition cost.
mayham2199
Member
At the very least let them go back to their old strategy of working with partners first.
DenchDeckard
Moderated wildly
I think you could be right on the money here.
Probably had demos of concord running at 120fps etc. Sony clearly thought this game was going to be their monumental exclusive for the year and for the future and Astro Bot would be a solid good game to come out after.
Oh, how wrong they were.
AmuroChan
Member
Well, they will at their next earnings call. Publicly traded companies don't just randomly release financial statements for fun.
Raven117
Member
No, but huge events do require 8ks filed with the SEC.
AmuroChan
Member
Because you're comparing apples to oranges. Spiderman is made by a very experienced studio who knows how to manage their projects and have a proven successful production pipeline. Firewalk is a brand new studio who now we know was run by incompetent people and burned through their cash like candy while delivering a turd of a game. Good businesses know how to spend money wisely and efficiently. Bad businesses don't and go into debt and eventual bankruptcy.
StreetsofBeige
Member
Personally I think one of the reasons why Sony execs loved Concord is because if you compare it to their SP games, it's got production values, cinematics, and story with GotG kind of characters. A game (if successful), can turn into lots of sequels where Sony adds in their story and cinematics to make it a whole package. And if Sony gamers enjoy high budget SP games with robust feature set, then a MP game with a similar mindset fits right in.
I dont think they cared or considered the weird pastel art or character sets at all. If other shooters can have crazy colourful characters, Concord is really no different. It's just it's badly done vs the other hero shooters with sharp character art.
They just looked at the total package of MP + MTX potential + Hollywood feel = Success.
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Draugoth
Gold Member
CYRU5_DA_GR34T
Member
Apparently 200 was spent before sony bought the studio, the herman hulst comvinced sonythat Concord would be the next starwars with huge cross media potential, and another 200 was spent after250 is what the whispers say, dunno where they got the 400
But now we know why the Pro doesn't have a disc drive or stand and cost $700
BennyBlanco
aka IMurRIVAL69
I wonder how much Ubisoft lost in their flopped GaaS endeavors. This is only such a big story because it's Sony.
Ubisoft had:
- Hyperscape, never released after the beta flopped (which is what should've happened to Concord)
- Skull and Bones, the first AAAA game that nobody even cared enough to make fun of
- Division Homeland, never even made it past an alpha
- XDefiant, not a megaflop but probably doesn't have enough players to keep making content for
Ubisoft had:
- Hyperscape, never released after the beta flopped (which is what should've happened to Concord)
- Skull and Bones, the first AAAA game that nobody even cared enough to make fun of
- Division Homeland, never even made it past an alpha
- XDefiant, not a megaflop but probably doesn't have enough players to keep making content for
AmuroChan
Member
This isn't that huge in the grand scheme of things. Sony invested in a product and it failed. It's not a historic event like Enron or Bernie Madoff. The Bungie situation is almost certainly a bigger financial loss to Sony than Concord was.
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apocaliptic
Member
Sony could have ended world hunger with that money.
The professor is smart
The professor is smart
Kaiserstark
Member
In fact we have a good example to compare budgets since we know that of Ghost of Tsushima and that Sucker Punch is located in the exact same city than Firewalk so the wages should not be too far apart.
Ghost of Tsushima was in development for 6 years with 160 people at Sucker Punch (almost the same number of people from Firewalk who worked on Concord) in total it's almost 1700 people who worked on it according to Mobby Games and the game at had a budget of 60 million so yes we have to add inflation etc... but we are still quite far from 400 million.
Besides, we know that during the 8 years of Concord's development, the first years there were around a dozen, which is quite logical given that the studio had just been founded and that it gradually increased over the years.
Shin-Ra
Junior Member
Tren, the new(last year) and excellent Media Molecule-made game inside Dreams probably had the full PlayStation Studios credits despite few of them making a meaningful contribution outside Mm, catering, FPQA, outsourced QA and other little bits.It's not 150 people, holy shit, why do people keep saying this
Concord credits (PlayStation 5, 2024) - MobyGames
The official game credits for Concord released on PlayStation 5 in 2024. The credits include 1,982 people.www.mobygames.com
Despite being excellent and much better than the story levels Dreams shipped with, no trophies were even added for Tren.
Edit: Concord clearly did get a big, undeserving internal push.
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DenchDeckard
Moderated wildly
How does someone sleep after burning 400 million $
Fuck me, I'm sat here and I just actually pondered.....imagine being responsible for the business loss of 400 mill and knowing how badly this thing tanked.
If I was responsible for losing 10k to 100k in my business ...I just can't even imagine it. 400 million is bonkers
darrylgorn
Member
So Concord is the reason PS5 Pro costs 700 bones then, huh.
StreetsofBeige
Member
If Sony's loss is $200M of it, they lost back most of Helldivers 2 profits.
12M copies x $40 = $480M. Minus off steam cut of lets say 50% of sales at 30% = -$70M-ish.
$410M net sales. Minus of whatever it cost to marketing and make the game, and they should be left with $300M+. Maybe $350M.
Whatever that final number is doesn't really matter because Concord might had just ate up $200M of it.
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RaidenJTr7
Member
8 years ? 400m$ ?
bu but .. star citizen is a scam"
bu but .. star citizen is a scam"
AmuroChan
Member
It's all about scale. For these multi-billion dollar conglomerates, $400m is a tax write off. If you're running a small business, a $100k loss can lead to bankruptcy.
kruis
Exposing the sinister cartel of retailers who allow companies to pay for advertising space.
That's no doubt the result of Sony's top management wanting more synergy between the gaming and movie divisions. Popular game IPs should become movie franchises.
Sony bets on game-to-film adaptations to unlock IP potential
'Ghost of Tsushima' to use artistry and choreography to woo not only gamers
asia.nikkei.com
OKYO -- Sony Group aims to make games into high-quality TV and cinema content to synergize intellectual property across the group, and make the most of the company's highly skilled personnel and technological prowess.
Sony emphasized IP expansion at its annual shareholders meeting in late June. The company continues to make headlines regarding takeovers, including Alamo Drafthouse Cinema, a North American theater chain it acquired in June, and Paramount Global, which Sony was reportedly interested in but agreed to merge with Skydance Media.
Sony has other ways to develop new pillars to maximize the value of its IPs on its own.
"I'm genuinely looking forward to 'Ghost of Tsushima,'" said Asad Qizilbash, head of PlayStation Productions, a studio established by Sony Interactive Entertainment in 2019 to make film and TV adaptations of PlayStation games.
With a release date yet to be announced, the film is based on the 2020 PlayStation game Ghost of Tsushima, about a samurai in feudal Japan who defends the war-torn island of Tsushima from invasion by the Mongols and was nicknamed "The Ghost." The film will be directed by Chad Stahelski, director of the John Wick movies and an avid fan of the game himself.
PlayStation Productions includes a team that is familiar with both games and film. Based in California, the team has released films like "Uncharted" (2022), "Gran Turismo" (2023), and the live-action drama "The Last of Us" (2023). The studio currently has over ten projects in various stages of development.
"We are world class at all the major entertainment disciplines, which is gaming, music, TV, film, animation, anime" and "technology discipline and expertise" and "diversity of IP," Qizilbash said. This, he said, puts Sony in a unique position in the entertainment technology space that "I don't think anyone has."
Sony's technology enables access to matchless equipment such as the Venice camera, which was used in the racing film Gran Turismo.
However, Hideki Yasuda, an analyst at Toyo Securities, said Sony should not focus too much on cinematic quality for its films. "The Mario movie did not aim for any awards ... but was still a blockbuster hit," he said.
Nintendo has achieved massive success with "The Super Mario Bros. Movie" released in April 2023, grossing over 200 billion yen ($1.2 billion) globally. When the film sequel, as well as new software, was announced last month, Nintendo stocks climbed 5% in two days.
The key factor for a hit game-turned-film remains a mystery, according to Yasuda. "There is no way to check what led to the success," he said. "There is no way to prove that the next film will be a hit as well."
Turning games into movies has been regarded as a challenge for film studios. The real-life action film of Mario, released in 1993, was a box office flop. So was the Final Fantasy film adaptation released in 2001.
"What was amazing about the Mario movie was that it led to the sales of other software," Yasuda said. "There has never been a similar example."
Companies like Sony will most likely focus on IP expansion, leading to more M&As of both IP and the people responsible for development like engineers, planners and designers, said BCG Managing Director Hirohisa Ichikawa.
Originally an electronics company, Sony has transformed itself into an entertainment titan. After the promotion of Kazuo Hirai from a gaming background to Sony president in 2012, the company morphed into an entertainment business, said Yasuda.
Sony Group's entertainment segment includes films, games and music, and it generated around 69% of total operating profit in fiscal 2023 excluding the finance sector. Gaming earned 290.2 billion yen ($1.8 billion), which was more than 50% higher than electronics with 187.4 billion yen.
"Before, electronics companies used to compete over features such as the sound quality of their equipment," said Yasuda. "What matters more now is having lots of content rights."
SF Kosmo
Banned
How could they invest so much in a game and not do any of the market research to see the red flags before launch? It's stunning. Even on a sure thing there should be tracking to make sure marketing is reaching the audience.
I'm really struggling to think how anyone could have thought this game would have been a marquee title for Sony. Like okay, maybe they didn't see it being rejected by literally everyone but if I was going to compare it to other games in the lineup I would have thought it was more of a Foamstars than a God of War and I'm shocked their understanding was that far skewed.
I'm really struggling to think how anyone could have thought this game would have been a marquee title for Sony. Like okay, maybe they didn't see it being rejected by literally everyone but if I was going to compare it to other games in the lineup I would have thought it was more of a Foamstars than a God of War and I'm shocked their understanding was that far skewed.
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mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
I love Herman Hulst, but I agree. If he's really this braindead.....bro!
StreetsofBeige
Member
Great post.That's no doubt the result of Sony's top management wanting more synergy between the gaming and movie divisions. Popular game IPs should become movie franchises.
Sony bets on game-to-film adaptations to unlock IP potential
'Ghost of Tsushima' to use artistry and choreography to woo not only gamers
OKYO -- Sony Group aims to make games into high-quality TV and cinema content to synergize intellectual property across the group, and make the most of the company's highly skilled personnel and technological prowess.
Sony emphasized IP expansion at its annual shareholders meeting in late June. The company continues to make headlines regarding takeovers, including Alamo Drafthouse Cinema, a North American theater chain it acquired in June, and Paramount Global, which Sony was reportedly interested in but agreed to merge with Skydance Media.
Sony has other ways to develop new pillars to maximize the value of its IPs on its own.
"I'm genuinely looking forward to 'Ghost of Tsushima,'" said Asad Qizilbash, head of PlayStation Productions, a studio established by Sony Interactive Entertainment in 2019 to make film and TV adaptations of PlayStation games.
With a release date yet to be announced, the film is based on the 2020 PlayStation game Ghost of Tsushima, about a samurai in feudal Japan who defends the war-torn island of Tsushima from invasion by the Mongols and was nicknamed "The Ghost." The film will be directed by Chad Stahelski, director of the John Wick movies and an avid fan of the game himself.
PlayStation Productions includes a team that is familiar with both games and film. Based in California, the team has released films like "Uncharted" (2022), "Gran Turismo" (2023), and the live-action drama "The Last of Us" (2023). The studio currently has over ten projects in various stages of development.
"We are world class at all the major entertainment disciplines, which is gaming, music, TV, film, animation, anime" and "technology discipline and expertise" and "diversity of IP," Qizilbash said. This, he said, puts Sony in a unique position in the entertainment technology space that "I don't think anyone has."
Sony's technology enables access to matchless equipment such as the Venice camera, which was used in the racing film Gran Turismo.
However, Hideki Yasuda, an analyst at Toyo Securities, said Sony should not focus too much on cinematic quality for its films. "The Mario movie did not aim for any awards ... but was still a blockbuster hit," he said.
Nintendo has achieved massive success with "The Super Mario Bros. Movie" released in April 2023, grossing over 200 billion yen ($1.2 billion) globally. When the film sequel, as well as new software, was announced last month, Nintendo stocks climbed 5% in two days.
The key factor for a hit game-turned-film remains a mystery, according to Yasuda. "There is no way to check what led to the success," he said. "There is no way to prove that the next film will be a hit as well."
Turning games into movies has been regarded as a challenge for film studios. The real-life action film of Mario, released in 1993, was a box office flop. So was the Final Fantasy film adaptation released in 2001.
"What was amazing about the Mario movie was that it led to the sales of other software," Yasuda said. "There has never been a similar example."
Companies like Sony will most likely focus on IP expansion, leading to more M&As of both IP and the people responsible for development like engineers, planners and designers, said BCG Managing Director Hirohisa Ichikawa.
Originally an electronics company, Sony has transformed itself into an entertainment titan. After the promotion of Kazuo Hirai from a gaming background to Sony president in 2012, the company morphed into an entertainment business, said Yasuda.
Sony Group's entertainment segment includes films, games and music, and it generated around 69% of total operating profit in fiscal 2023 excluding the finance sector. Gaming earned 290.2 billion yen ($1.8 billion), which was more than 50% higher than electronics with 187.4 billion yen.
"Before, electronics companies used to compete over features such as the sound quality of their equipment," said Yasuda. "What matters more now is having lots of content rights."
When I posted that I was thinking the Hollywood glitz just across their games. I forgot about all the movies and TV shows they link up to their games now trying to make it a multi-pronged IP. And Concord fit right in with all the cinematics they did. If the game did well, it'd be a perfect IP to adapt to TV or movies.
Yeah, sorry, the money just doesn't add up. Spiderman 2 had way more dev credits, it was made in California and had the Disney license on top. The dude is either straight up lying to boost his Patreon or got a flimsy source and ran with it because it supports his own biases.
It doesn't matter, the $400M number will get some traction and some actual journalist will give us the deeds.
semiconscious
Member
these are delusional times. people have come to believe that they can simply wish things (like 'massive success!') into existence by having good, positive thoughts. they are delusional (& need to go)...
elcapitano
Member
They now have a 100+ employee studio sitting there with nothing to do.
Get them to finish Factions with a select few Naughty Dog employees managing story and overseeing project.
Make something good from this disaster.
Get them to finish Factions with a select few Naughty Dog employees managing story and overseeing project.
Make something good from this disaster.
I think the $400m total is probably in regards to EVERYTHING?
Like, the cost of the studio and everything else in just one big lump sum ending.
But I think for the game, around $250m probably sounds about right.
Sony probably saw the employees of Firewalk as they were ex-Bungie and thought it was worth it for their talent alone.
Like, the cost of the studio and everything else in just one big lump sum ending.
But I think for the game, around $250m probably sounds about right.
Sony probably saw the employees of Firewalk as they were ex-Bungie and thought it was worth it for their talent alone.
Mister Wolf
Member
That can't be true.
PlayStation and Xbox both a serious reshuffle of the heads or something more drastic.
Xbox is dead and Sony is self destructing, how many more bad decisions can they stand? Xbox had a blank check, Sony does not have an infinite amount of money.
ResilientBanana
Member
Keep the programmers ditch the art team.
SEGAvangelist
Member
What's better than one Bungie? 2 Bungies!
Robot Carnival
Member
oh for crying out loud! $400 million!? seriously? I mean, I guess I can see it but it's still mind boggling that this much investment is not more tightly controlled and adjusted accordingly before just shoving it out on the market.
Drake
Member
He's says at the end of the video that the $400 million does NOT include the price to buy Firewalk.
KaiserBecks
Member
Explains why they gave it so much airtime during the state of play couple of months ago. They wanted to make an impression and I suppose they did, lol.
LordOcidax
Member
There's no comparison. It's Sony money, not ours.
StreetsofBeige
Member
I think that $400M is way to high. Doesn't matter how the costs were split between ProbablyMonsters and Sony. Seems oddly high. But what do I know about media budgets.
She-Hulk streaming show was 9 episodes and cost $225M to make. lol
Budgets Gone Wild.
She-Hulk streaming show was 9 episodes and cost $225M to make. lol
Budgets Gone Wild.
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Seyken
Member
I can believe it.
The studio is based in Washington, so wages are not comparable to wages in Poland for example, for all the people citing CD Projekt as a point of comparison. This game was also in development through COVID, where things were probably not working at its most efficient. Probably a lot of money burned paying people to work from home and not getting a lot done (probably contributed to the game's issues and culture of not being allowed to criticize something).
Those 150 employees that you guys keep talking about are just the employees that actually work at Firewalk, this game was made by more than 1500 people through outsorcing. This was supposed to be a GaaS, so the content that we saw day one is not indicative of everything that was made.
If they were planning to release CG cutscenes EVERY SINGLE WEEK, you better bet there were A LOT of them ready to go, these take months to a year to be made and are expensive as fuck. I remember that years ago Yoshi P (from Final Fantasy XIV), got an earful from the higher ups at Square Enix because he decided to have a CG scene to conclude a very important part of the game's story because it was very expensive and would go above the expected budget for the game. This was YEARS ago, and it was ONE, SHORT, scene.
Adding to that, Firewalk also probably had new characters, new modes, etc being made. This game was very, very expensive and at this point I'm willing to say it's probably the biggest flop in the history of the entertainment industry.
The studio is based in Washington, so wages are not comparable to wages in Poland for example, for all the people citing CD Projekt as a point of comparison. This game was also in development through COVID, where things were probably not working at its most efficient. Probably a lot of money burned paying people to work from home and not getting a lot done (probably contributed to the game's issues and culture of not being allowed to criticize something).
Those 150 employees that you guys keep talking about are just the employees that actually work at Firewalk, this game was made by more than 1500 people through outsorcing. This was supposed to be a GaaS, so the content that we saw day one is not indicative of everything that was made.
If they were planning to release CG cutscenes EVERY SINGLE WEEK, you better bet there were A LOT of them ready to go, these take months to a year to be made and are expensive as fuck. I remember that years ago Yoshi P (from Final Fantasy XIV), got an earful from the higher ups at Square Enix because he decided to have a CG scene to conclude a very important part of the game's story because it was very expensive and would go above the expected budget for the game. This was YEARS ago, and it was ONE, SHORT, scene.
Adding to that, Firewalk also probably had new characters, new modes, etc being made. This game was very, very expensive and at this point I'm willing to say it's probably the biggest flop in the history of the entertainment industry.
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DAHGAMING
Kentucky Fried Controller
This is actualy sad not for the studio but us gamers who love the old PS game series from PS1-3 The fact they thought it was the future of Playstation almost confirms that anything pre PS4 is pretty much dead to them in favour of all this shit there pushing. I would say there is now hope they will turn to old game series or at least genres (FPS for eg) but I feel there to fucking stubbon and will just go down some other direction.
Brothers, heres something, fuck off the woke hero shit, if you want a GAAS give us Socom, you can have your micro transaction, people will buy that shit, just chill on the bright colours and keep the characters as military, terroists, militia, no need for Nikki Minaj or Michael Barrymore running about. Look after it and this fucker will bring you money for yrs, have traditional modes and chuck a Battle Royale in if you want.
Lets have some single playef shit, we know you love Horizon, its decent but dont overdo it, give it a break, lets have a reboot of the Getaway at some point. God of War can have a break aswell, lets get a big FPS campaign, reboot of Killzone, Resistance or a new gritty series.
We know your gunna give us The Last of us 3, all good but after let them boys give us some mental fantasy or space adventure.
Brothers, heres something, fuck off the woke hero shit, if you want a GAAS give us Socom, you can have your micro transaction, people will buy that shit, just chill on the bright colours and keep the characters as military, terroists, militia, no need for Nikki Minaj or Michael Barrymore running about. Look after it and this fucker will bring you money for yrs, have traditional modes and chuck a Battle Royale in if you want.
Lets have some single playef shit, we know you love Horizon, its decent but dont overdo it, give it a break, lets have a reboot of the Getaway at some point. God of War can have a break aswell, lets get a big FPS campaign, reboot of Killzone, Resistance or a new gritty series.
We know your gunna give us The Last of us 3, all good but after let them boys give us some mental fantasy or space adventure.
Bitmap Frogs
Mr. Community
hulst needs to go - hes a fucking fraud
Loboxxx
Member
I find it hard to understand that a company like Sony, with such an important history in the world of videogames, with sagas like Uncharted or God of War, would spend 400 million on a product like Concord, which it was more than obvious that due to its genre and design, it was doomed to failure.
If it's something that any teenage fan of the Playstation brand can see, how can it be that a management team that makes a living out of making videogames can't see it?
I hope that all this madness of betting on the game as a service, to the detriment of the traditional single-player game, came from the infamous Jim Ryan and the brand returns to the direction of its investments.
If it's something that any teenage fan of the Playstation brand can see, how can it be that a management team that makes a living out of making videogames can't see it?
I hope that all this madness of betting on the game as a service, to the detriment of the traditional single-player game, came from the infamous Jim Ryan and the brand returns to the direction of its investments.
AmuroChan
Member
Again, you can't compare spending efficiency between an experienced studio with a proven track record to a brand new startup studio. It would be like comparing some startup tech company that goes bankrupt after 2 years to Apple and wondering why the startup couldn't just operate like Apple? There's a reason why some companies are ultra successful while others are poorly managed and eventually go bankrupt.
You also have to take into account where the studio is located and the average salary.
In Warsaw, Poland, an entry level game developer with 1-3 years of experience earns around $36,000 a year and one with around 6-8 years experience makes around $62,000.
In Bellevue, Washington, an entry game developer salary is around $120,000 and someone with years experience can around $180,000 to even the $200,000s. That's not even accounting for the top dogs like CEO or Directors who earn probably more.
Then you include the location of the studio and other benefits that probably come with working/being in that area, I'm not surprised about hearing those high numbers.
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