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[Ainem Enamas]

I'm now playing through, that old, Tomb Rider Anniversary from 2007 on Series X. I like that game greatly, the gameplay is so simple but so well presented. I'm enjoying the game slowly - it controls so beautifully.
What do think of how complex gameplay should be? What do you prefer - complex or simple?

 

[Crayon]

Nothing is too simple but I start having trouble when you get closer to 4x complexity.

 

[Wolves hunt in packs]

Both? sometimes it's fun to have a simple game without tons of mechanics, but also games with a lot of options to upgrade your character/gear etc are also fun.

Just lose all weapon durability already, never added anything fun to me.

 

[Ainem Enamas]

Nothing is too simple but I start having trouble when you get closer to 4x complexity.

Any game examples?

 

[HRK69]

The more complex, the better for me. I need to be challenged.

That's why I love Nioh 2 so much

 

[Crayon]

Any game examples?

You need a PhD for some of this shit.

 

[cormack12]

 

[The Cockatrice]

Complexity comes in many forms in different genres. Most of the times its poorly implemented and it becomes tedious. Sekiro is a great example for its genre. Talos 2 also a great example of complex and well designed. Doom Eternal on Nighmare is incredibly satisfying, etc. At the end if the day I prefer complex, difficult but fair.

 

[abstract alien]

To this day, I still don't know what the hell I'm doing in Knights in the Nightmare. Even the box art is complicated.

 

[kikkis]

Depth from simplicity. I think its actually Itagaki quote.

 

[Banjo64]

I like the Ori games man. You start of just doing basic platforming and as you unlock new moves you end up chaining jumps, dashing mid-air, launching yourself forward seamlessly. You end up flying across the screen like a demon.

 

[cormack12]

I don't mind difficultly as long as it's not tedious. Which is why I don't mind souls games but hate their bosses.

If they designed their bosses like poe2 I'd be happy. Hard but fair. I just cba getting hit by each strike to see which is blockable and when it's not you're pretty much done.

The poe bosses are tough but I'm seeing enough to progress and also get a checkpoint at the boss gate.

 

[ssringo]

I don't have a particular limit with the gameplay itself but I can't do the whole turn based strategy thing. Basically I can out skill (or brute force) to get a win but I usually can't out think for a win.

 

[Ainem Enamas]

Complexity comes in many forms in different genres. Most of the times its poorly implemented and it becomes tedious. Sekiro is a great example for its genre. Talos 2 also a great example of complex and well designed. Doom Eternal on Nighmare is incredibly satisfying, etc. At the end if the day I prefer complex, difficult but fair.

Eternal's gameplay is simple in my opinion, I have played many, many hours of it. It is a bit strategical of what firepower you use in a situation but it's pretty simple in overall, and I like it! Now going through the second DLC

 

[Magic Carpet]

The big thing I ask for is no time based mechanics. No throw a switch and have to do complicated series of maneuvers to get through a door before it closes.

 

[Ainem Enamas]

I don't have a particular limit with the gameplay itself but I can't do the whole turn based strategy thing. Basically I can out skill (or brute force) to get a win but I usually can't out think for a win.

You mean like Civ-games or something like Dragon Quest turn-based?

 

[Ainem Enamas]

I like the Ori games man. You start of just doing basic platforming and as you unlock new moves you end up chaining jumps, dashing mid-air, launching yourself forward seamlessly. You end up flying across the screen like a demon.

I recently started playing the first Ori, your post reminded that I have to continue

 

[BattleScar]

I don't want to come back from my job, and have to do work to play a game.

 

[hemo memo]

This is a very interesting video on the topic about Toki Tori 2:

 

[intbal]

I like complex gameplay but simple controls.
Dishonored got the balance just right.

 

[noob smokes]

Games where all i do is hold down l2 & r2

 

[reinking]

These days, easy mode….

 

[hemo memo]

These days, easy mode….

It has nothing to do with being smart. A monkey could complete the Uncharted games on the hardest difficulty.

 

[Aces High]

I think Pareto Principle is a good guideline:

80% of gameplay value should be achievable with 20% of the gameplay systems.

The core mechanics should be very well designed. Players can skip systems they don't like. Minmaxers have headroom for pwnage. Also, it makes returning to the game easier after weeks of absence.

 

[ssringo]

You mean like Civ-games or something like Dragon Quest turn-based?

Civilization on any difficulty that requires planning. Grand Strategy. Final Fantasy Tactics.

Regular turn based games like DQ or Octopath Traveler is fine, though I do find them monotonous at times.

 

[thefool]

I like layered simplicity. Complexity comes with practice.

I have no patience for gameplay that throws you 20 different things at the same time.

 

[Trogdor1123]

Elden Ring is as deep as I want to go mechanically. If found there were too many move sets to memorize in the new gow games so I just skipped most.

 

[Cakeboxer]

I don't care as long as the game as a whole is good. For example p&c adventures or moviegames like The Quarry. Actually no gameplay at all, but still entertaining games. I grew up with an NES that has 2 buttons and i still play those games today.

 

[Umbral]

I want complexity in gameplay. Multiple solutions to problems. I do not want to spend a lot of time in menus, so that kind of complexity is not what I'm after.

 

[reinking]

It has nothing to do with being smart. A monkey could complete the Uncharted games on the hardest difficulty.

The smart thing was a joke but these days I am comfortable with turning down the difficulty if a game frustrates me. I am playing games for fun. While a challenge can be fun, I no loner have patience for fake difficulty,

 

[ReBurn]

There needs to be a good reason for complexity. Making gameplay more complex just to increase difficulty is lousy design. Making things button-press simple is also lousy design. I think a lot of times we see unnecessary complexity just to avoid potential criticisms for button press simplicity.

 

[xanaum]

I miss action games with tons of stealth mechanics and tactical features like Metal Gear Solid 4 and V.

 

[cinnamonandgravy]

depth > complexity

 

[Ainem Enamas]

I don't want to come back from my job, and have to do work to play a game.

What do you usually play after work?

 

[BattleScar]

What do you usually play after work?

Honestly, not much these days. I'm very much disillusioned by gaming right now.

But I have started and have been enjoying Hollow Knight.

 

[Ainem Enamas]

Civilization on any difficulty that requires planning. Grand Strategy. Final Fantasy Tactics.

Regular turn based games like DQ or Octopath Traveler is fine, though I do find them monotonous at times.

I recommend DQ11.

 

[March Climber]

I am content with most games as long as the developer knows what a controller is and how it is supposed to work.

I get worried every time a PC-only or Mobile-only developer suddenly decides to make a game for console and they treat the console controller like some benign alien object that they can't figure their way around.

It doesn't happen as often today, but when it does (Infinity Nikki) it makes me glad I'm able to edit the button assignments on a system level.

 

[The artful mincer]

Eternal's gameplay is simple in my opinion, I have played many, many hours of it. It is a bit strategical of what firepower you use in a situation but it's pretty simple in overall, and I like it! Now going through the second DLC

I don't think eternals combat is simple at all.

It just does such a good job of teaching it's mechanics that it ends up becoming second nature.

You have 9 weapons, 2 alt fires for each, 15 to 20 different enemies some with weak spots, some weapons are appropriate for enemies but not for others.

Then you have chainsaw, blood punch, freeze bomb, grenade and flame belch to manage your resources.

The movement is very complex with double jump, monkey bar, air dash and meat hook

Like that's a lot of mechanics for a first person shooter! Most players likely already played doom 2016 so some of these mechanics were likely second nature.

If you introduced all those mechanics at the start of a game most players would be overwhelmed.

Eternal does a really good job of introducing each mechanic slowly while subtlety teaching the player the basics.( And sometimes not so so subtlety!)

 

[Dr.Morris79]

I like them this complex

Peak PC complex rewarding gameplay. Nowt like it

 

[killatopak]

Any game examples?

Paradox games.

 

[Ainem Enamas]

I miss action games with tons of stealth mechanics and tactical features like Metal Gear Solid 4 and V.

I'm playing MGS5P, it's a simple gameplay loop in my opinion, but the way it holds together makes it feel like very complex

 

[Heisenberg007]

I just don't want the game to feel like work.

I turn on games to enjoy. As long as the game isn't as complex as to hinder my enjoyment, I'm in. Of course, it has to control well.

 

[Ainem Enamas]

I don't think eternals combat is simple at all.

It just does such a good job of teaching it's mechanics that it ends up becoming second nature.

You have 9 weapons, 2 alt fires for each, 15 to 20 different enemies some with weak spots, some weapons are appropriate for enemies but not for others.

Then you have chainsaw, blood punch, freeze bomb, grenade and flame belch to manage your resources.

The movement is very complex with double jump, monkey bar, air dash and meat hook

Like that's a lot of mechanics for a first person shooter! Most players likely already played doom 2016 so some of these mechanics were likely second nature.

If you introduced all those mechanics at the start of a game most players would be overwhelmed.

Eternal does a really good job of introducing each mechanic slowly while subtlety teaching the player the basics.( And sometimes not so so subtlety!)

Yes, it has this very intuitive gameplay loop. Going through this second DLC I usually and mostly use super shotgun, and if there's some specific enemy then I switch to needed option.
Sometimes it feels like a game that even Jesus wouldn't mind playing

 

[lughnasadh123]

I have a simple rule. Once I start having to math stuff out, my interest dives unless there's any easy guide to follow.

 

[Mister Wolf]

My favorite genre. Turn based cRPG. Nothing else provides me the same level of enjoyment from a gameplay perspective.

 

[The artful mincer]

Yes, it has this very intuitive gameplay loop. Going through this second DLC I usually and mostly use super shotgun, and if there's some specific enemy then I switch to needed option.
Sometimes it feels like a game that even Jesus wouldn't mind playing

Yes I think it might have the best combat system in any game ever.

To answer your original topic (Great topic by the way I wish gaf was more of this instead of endless culture war BS)

I think I like games that start super simple but then slowly add complexity so it feels very natural and ideally you hardly notice it as a player. Hopefully by the end of the game your performing very complex tasks but you don't notice it because it's all automated.

Games that do this well are the modern Doom games and modern god of war and ghost of tsushima. If you think about the amount of options you have at the end of each of these games it's kinda crazy your mind doesn't explode.

Simple games can still be very fun though. Astrobot is a very good example. You basically have jump, hover, punch, spin punch and power up and that's basically it. The power ups are all very different which keeps variety and allows vastly different level design.

Arguably though Astrobot had simple controls but complex level design. Much more complex than a combat focused game at least.

I'm waffling a bit but could talk for ages on this topic!

 

[U n i o n 0015]

When I have to break out a spreadsheet to understand which weapons/armors are better than the rest...

 

[Fbh]

Both can be good and generally I like to mix them up.

That said I guess I gravitate towards games with relatively simple gameplay but high skill ceiling.
Like IDK, Sekiro for example doesn't have much complexity to it. There is very little character building, your objective almost always is to just kill everything that moves, and the combat doesn't involve learning complex combos or inputs. But through that simplicity they offer a challenging game with a rewarding sense of progression as your skill at playing it keeps increasing.

 

[xanaum]

I'm playing MGS5P, it's a simple gameplay loop in my opinion, but the way it holds together makes it feel like very complex

If you're trying to manage the mother base well and aim for an S-rank in missions with all the required objectives, it gets pretty complex.

 

[hinch7]

Something in between. I like depth to gameplay and not overly complicated game mechanics and controls. Intuitive controls are a must.

If a game is too complicated or overwhelming it starts becoming a chore than fun. As in a few MMO's and RPG's I've played it takes ages to learn how to craft, optimise talents and number crunching.. I just cba because its becomes more work than play.