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[Joshmyersbv]

The only recent realization has been that America is led by pretty much a circus parade with a bunch of children in suits trying to act like adults but failing miserably. No one will take this country seriously for a long time after that sham of a "negociation meeting" with Ukraine which is why such changes are taking place.

The forefathers of the USA must be turning in their graves for how embarassing that political display was for the entire world to see.

The majority of Americans don't want to fund a foreign war that's an ocean apart from us. Especially given the fact that the guy that we're giving money to tells the media that he misplaced half of it. We don't want to fund another Afghanistan.The fact remains that Ukraine is not in a position to win a war with Russia.

 

[ChuckeRearmed]

Whataboutism isn't a compelling argument.

It is not different from using 9/11 or pearl harbor People should understand that war in Ukraine is not particularly different from Georgia, but Europeans did not care. Or Syria. So did Europeans stop the trade with Russia then? No. Not that morally right eh?

Yet much more than 12% are cool with Trump being a Putin puppet. But we can bandaid that with a little cognitive dissonance and double think

It is pretty simple - the idea of Trump being russian puppet does not resonate much because it is a stupid idea in the first place. Is Modi a russian puppet? Is Xi a russian puppet?

 

[BlackTron]

Kind of a harsh take. Believe it or not there's a ton of Americans who think the Russian government is abhorrent but who are tired of paying for someone else's war. That hardly qualifies as supporting Russia.

This is false. We are actively helping Russia in excess of merely halting aid, by putting pressure on Ukraine to crack and bullying them in their darkest hour. We are letting the government we abhor to expand, through complicit cooperation -if we can share profit from the victim.

 

[Joshmyersbv]

This is false. We are actively helping Russia in excess of merely halting aid, by putting pressure on Ukraine to crack and bullying them in their darkest hour. We are letting the government we abhor to expand, through complicit cooperation -if we can share profit from the victim.

We're not actively helping Russia. We're just not spending money on a war we shouldn't be involved in. You know what Europe can do? Europe can stop buying gas and oil from Russia if they really feel Putin is a threat to them.

Honestly i'm sick of tired of europeans bitching about how bad Russia is to democracy but then they're willing to fuel the Russian economy.

 

[BlackTron]

It is not different from using 9/11 or pearl harbor People should understand that war in Ukraine is not particularly different from Georgia, but Europeans did not care. Or Syria. So did Europeans stop the trade with Russia then? No. Not that morally right eh?


It is pretty simple - the idea of Trump being russian puppet does not resonate much because it is a stupid idea in the first place. Is Modi a russian puppet? Is Xi a russian puppet?

Trump sounded like a literal parrot of Putin in his oval office meeting. Every stance he had came directly from Moscow. He hardly had anything unique or distinct to add his own flavor.

Now we don't even share intelligence information with Ukraine anymore. With talk of easing sanctions on Russia. Anyone who thinks Putin is not jumping for joy for how we are furthering his interests is in denial.

 

[Bojji]

Trump sounded like a literal parrot of Putin in his oval office meeting. Every stance he had came directly from Moscow. He hardly had anything unique or distinct to add his own flavor.

Now we don't even share intelligence information with Ukraine anymore. With talk of easing sanctions on Russia. Anyone who thinks Putin is not jumping for joy for how we are furthering his interests is in denial.

Yep, Russia loves it

Kremlin says US foreign policy pivot ‘largely coincides with our vision’

Russia’s foreign minister also praises Donald Trump for his ‘commonsense’ aim to end the war in Ukraine

www.theguardian.com

Trump was in Soviet Union borrowing money in late 80's. Russians clearly have something on him or they just recruited him.

 

[BlackTron]

We're not actively helping Russia. We're just not spending money on a war we shouldn't be involved in. You know what Europe can do? Europe can stop buying gas and oil from Russia if they really feel Putin is a threat to them.

Honestly i'm sick of tired of europeans bitching about how bad Russia is to democracy but then they're willing to fuel the Russian economy.

Oil can be existential, and they only buy it with a ton of sanctions. Is withholding our intelligence info existential? That's beyond not wanting to pay, and active malice to "make them pay" for not taking a bad deal.

 

[EviLore]

Oil can be existential, and they only buy it with a ton of sanctions. Is withholding our intelligence info existential? That's beyond not wanting to pay, and active malice to "make them pay" for not taking a bad deal.

We are effectively rugpulling our ally during wartime. This is going to be in the history books as a dark day for the United States.

 

[BlackTron]

Yep, Russia loves it

Kremlin says US foreign policy pivot ‘largely coincides with our vision’

Russia’s foreign minister also praises Donald Trump for his ‘commonsense’ aim to end the war in Ukraine

www.theguardian.com

Trump was in Soviet Union borrowing money in late 80's. Russians clearly have something on him or they just recruited him.

He acted exactly as you would expect him to if this were true.

Russia has been cultivating Trump as an asset for 40 years, former KGB spy says

Yuri Shvets told The Guardian that the KGB had identified Trump as a potential asset as far back as the 1980s.

www.businessinsider.com

Edit: Okay this quote is pure gold.

In fact, Shvets said, Russian operatives used the trip to flatter Trump and told him he should go into politics. Shvets told The Guardian that KGB operatives were then stunned to discover that Trump had returned to the United States, mulled a run for office, and taken out a full-page ad in several newspapers that echoed anti-Western Russian talking points.

The ad, which ran in The Washington Post, The New York Times, and The Boston Globe, was titled "There's nothing wrong with America's Foreign Defense Policy that a little backbone can't cure."

The ad accused Japan and other countries of "taking advantage" of the United States and said the US should stop paying to defend other rich countries — arguments that would become the backbone of his foreign policy when he became president decades later.

Shvets said the ad was considered an "unprecedented" success in Russia's attempts to promote anti-Western talking points in American media.

 

[Joshmyersbv]

Oil can be existential, and they only buy it with a ton of sanctions. Is withholding our intelligence info existential? That's beyond not wanting to pay, and active malice to "make them pay" for not taking a bad deal.

Do you know what a bad deal is? A bad deal is giving a substantial amount of money to a country that is known to be corrupt, even before the war, without any security guarantees ( Mineral deal). The United States isn't a Eastern Europeans ATM to withdraw money from Whenever it pleases, not anymore.

Espeically when the person we're giving it to doesn't know where half of it is. Now when it comes to military intelligence. Are you willing to trust military intelligence to a government in which the President, who was warned about how to dress and what not to say before his meeting with Donald Trump does Is exactly the opposite of what he was told not to do?

He does a behind closed door meeting with US officials and agrees in principal to a mineral deal and then that very same day goes to the media and says he didn't agree to anything.

He is not in a position to demand anything. The only reason why he still has country in the first place is because of US intervention. Marco Rubio talked to European officials last week and he asked them what would their plan be if they wanted to end the war? And they suggest that it go on for another 2 to 3 years. I bet you when Zeneskyy left the US and went to Europe for support he realized without US help he was fucked.

Europe doesn't care about Ukraine, as long as a weakens Russia and doesn't spill over to the west. They don't care how many people die.

 

[nbcjr]

we really need a political forum here, the current time deserves it.

 

[BlackTron]

Do you know what a bad deal is? A bad deal is giving a substantial amount of money to a country that is known to be corrupt, even before the war, without any security guarantees ( Mineral deal). The United States isn't a Eastern Europeans ATM to withdraw money from Whenever it pleases, not anymore.

Espeically when the person we're giving it to doesn't know where half of it is. Now when it comes to military intelligence. Are you willing to trust military intelligence to a government in which the President, who was warned about how to dress and what not to say before his meeting with Donald Trump does Is exactly the opposite of what he was told not to do?

He does a behind closed door meeting with US officials and agrees in principal to a mineral deal and then that very same day goes to the media and says he didn't agree to anything.

He is not in a position to demand anything. The only reason why he still has country in the first place is because of US intervention. Marco Rubio talked to European officials last week and he asked them what would their plan be if they wanted to end the war? And they suggest that it go on for another 2 to 3 years. I bet you when Zeneskyy left the US and went to Europe for support he realized without US help he was fucked.

Europe doesn't care about Ukraine, as long as a weakens Russia and doesn't spill over to the west. They don't care how many people die.

Wow what a wall of text to try and sidestep what I said. I'll answer all that directly once you answer my post directly. And no, I won't start it with

"Do YOU know what a corrupt country is? A corrupt country is..." while ignoring your entire post lol.

Edit: Oh wait to be fair you did attempt to address the military intelligence. You know you have a point. If the location of a Russian tank on the perimeter fell into the wrong hands, something could go seriously wrong...I wouldn't trust them with it. They might even blow up the tank!

 

[LimanimaPT]

I never thought in my live I would see america as an enemy but here we are...
It's quite unbelievable how is it possible that people can't see that Trump is nothing more then a Putin's puppet.
Trump doesn't give two shits about people dying in Ukraine "ho I want peace, a very beautiful peace. Peace is so beautiful". Lies, lies and more lies. Trump simply wants to split Ukranian resources with his master.
There's not a single word that can be believed that comes out of Trump's mouth.
Funny thing is that exactly the same people that used to say that the Russian society had been brainwashed can't see that now they are being brainwashed themselfs.
I might be very wrong, but I suspect that it won't be elections in the US in the next decades. There is going to be "elections", Ruzzian style...

 

[Joshmyersbv]

Wow what a wall of text to try and sidestep what I said. I'll answer all that directly once you answer my post directly. And no, I won't start it with

"Do YOU know what a corrupt country is? A corrupt country is..." while ignoring your entire post lol.

The US should absolutely withhold intelligent information from Ukraine until Ukraine can find out what happened to the 100 billion dollars that went missing.

 

[Bojji]

The US should absolutely withhold intelligent information from Ukraine until Ukraine can find out what happened to the 100 billion dollars that went missing.

You know that most of American help to Ukraine was fairly old military equipment?

 

[Joshmyersbv]

You know that most of American help to Ukraine was fairly old military equipment?

It was good enough to turn what would have been a 3 week war into a 3 and a half year war. I mean billions of dollars in weapons and supplies had to go somewhere and Zeneskyy doesn't know what happened to it? I call bullshit

 

[BlackTron]

The US should absolutely withhold intelligent information from Ukraine until Ukraine can find out what happened to the 100 billion dollars that went missing.

So Ukraine doesn't have the right to die using our old stuff to weaken our rival in exchange for the right to exist until they figure out where some money went. Ok.

In the past few years we've only sent about 120bn to Ukraine. In that time they fought off incessant attacks and consumed tons of ordinance. What 100 billion hole are you referring to exactly?

We even put them in this situation because we failed to equip them properly early enough, only giving them enough to survive in small increments but never enough at once to make Russia feel they had better get out.

 

[Bojji]

It was good enough to turn what would have been a 3 week war into a 3 and a half year war. I mean billions of dollars in weapons and supplies had to go somewhere and Zeneskyy doesn't know what happened to it? I call bullshit

?

Most of American (and others) help was delivered LONG after 3 weeks. You really believe bullshit that Trump said? Half of things he and Vance said were untrue.

List of military aid to Ukraine during the Russo-Ukrainian War - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

By March 2024, mostly Western governments had pledged more than $380 billion worth of aid to Ukraine since the invasion, including nearly $118 billion in direct military aid from individual countries.[4] European countries have provided €132 billion in aid (military, financial and humanitarian) as of December 2024, and the United States has provided €114 billion.[5] Most of the US funding supports American industries who produce weapons and military equipment.[6]

America always had interest in this. They are not "giving away" money...

 

[BlackTron]

I might be very wrong, but I suspect that it won't be elections in the US in the next decades. There is going to be "elections", Ruzzian style...

This is what I think. Oh we will still have elections sure...for show...

 

[j0hnnix]

I am hoping the money improves more on their French baguettes and chocolates.

 

[Mattyp]

About time fucking lazy cunts.

 

[Joshmyersbv]

So Ukraine doesn't have the right to die using our old stuff to weaken our rival in exchange for the right to exist until they figure out where some money went. Ok.

In the past few years we've only sent about 120bn to Ukraine. In that time they fought off incessant attacks and consumed tons of ordinance. What 100 billion hole are you referring to exactly?

We even put them in this situation because we failed to equip them properly early enough, only giving them enough to survive in small increments but never enough at once to make Russia feel they had better get out.

The one hundred billion Zeneskyy said was approved that he never got. Someone explain to me why the US should not only foot the bill in this war, but some think we should put boots down and fight? Its not our fucking problem. Its the EUs

 

[BlackTron]

America always had interest in this. They are not "giving away" money...

That's just it, the guys upstairs have decided the direction, and in order to sell it, all they had to do was direct your anger at who is "taking" from you, knowing full well that being complete bullshit doesn't make a difference.

 

[Mattyp]

The one hundred billion Zeneskyy said was approved that he never got. Someone explained to me why the US should not only foot the bill in this war. But some think we should put boots down and fight? Its not our fucking problem. Its the EUs

US shouldn't be putting any troops on the ground, the EU has relied heavily on the US sacrificing its own sons and budget while they spend nothing let them play catch up finally like the rest of us in the world with defence spending.

 

[BlackTron]

The one hundred billion Zeneskyy said was approved that he never got. Someone explaine to me why the US should not only foot the bill in this war, but some think we should put boots down and fight? Its not our fucking problem. Its the EUs

So you want Zelenskyy to find the 100 billion that we never sent him, before we share our military intelligence?

You need to sit down lol

 

[Joshmyersbv]

?

Most of American (and others) help was delivered LONG after 3 weeks. You really believe bullshit that Trump said? Half of things he and Vance said were untrue.

List of military aid to Ukraine during the Russo-Ukrainian War - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

America always had interest in this. They are not "giving away" money...

It wasn't about what Trump said when the invasion first happened US representatives like Lindsey Graham said that if the US didn't intervene that the war wouldn't last longer than a year. And that was the settlement across Europe. That was the main reason why Europe wanted us to get involved.

 

[Joshmyersbv]

So you want Zelenskyy to find the 100 billion that we never sent him, before we share our military intelligence?

You need to sit down lol

First, he needs to prove it. Which i'm sure he can't.

 

[AJUMP23]

Remember Europe. It has not gone well for you to enter a land war in Asia.

 

[Joshmyersbv]

So at the end of the day this war only affects Europe, Ukraine, and Russia. If Trump can't get a peace deal then the US needs to back out and let Europe handle it.

 

[InterMusketeer]

US shouldn't be putting any troops on the ground, the EU has relied heavily on the US sacrificing its own sons and budget while they spend nothing let them play catch up finally like the rest of us in the world with defence spending.

I find this position reasonable, but I don't see how starting trade wars and even threatening armed conflict with your own allies at the same time is gonna help. Unless you just don't give a fuck about your historical friends and would rather cozy up to certain nations led by crooks and villains...

 

[BlackTron]

First, he needs to prove it. Which i'm sure he can't.

Where Is the Missing $100 Billion in U.S. Aid for Ukraine?

“I don’t know where all the money is"—CSIS expert Mark Cancian covers the facts behind Ukraine’s “missing” $100 billion.

www.csis.org

On February 2, President Volodymyr Zelensky of Ukraine said he had only received $75 billion of the $175 billion the United States had spent on Ukraine. The cry went up, what happened to the other $100 billion? Was it lost or stolen? The answer is no. Only part of the aid goes through Ukrainian control. A large part pays for activities as a result of the war but not to Ukraine directly. These include the United States training of Ukrainian forces, global humanitarian assistance, additional costs of U.S. surge forces in Europe, and intelligence support for both NATO and Ukraine.

 

[delirium trigger]

The forefathers of the USA must be turning in their graves for how embarassing that political display was for the entire world to see.

The founding fathers wanted the US to be neutral and stay out of foreign conflicts...

 

[Joshmyersbv]

Where Is the Missing $100 Billion in U.S. Aid for Ukraine?

“I don’t know where all the money is"—CSIS expert Mark Cancian covers the facts behind Ukraine’s “missing” $100 billion.

www.csis.org

So essentially he misspoke. The money didn't go missing, it was spent elsewhere.

 

[BlackTron]

So essentially he misspoke. The money didn't go missing, it was spent elsewhere.

I doubt he misspoke, more he was mistaken -he was only counting resources that had passed through Ukraine, without knowing that the 175bn figure was to include other things spent on Ukraine abroad. Fox News' sole purpose of existence is to spin these half truths based on facts to make us collectively dumber.

 

[terintamel]

We are effectively rugpulling our ally during wartime. This is going to be in the history books as a dark day for the United States.

Ukraine is no ally and never has been.

 

[BlackTron]

Now when it comes to military intelligence. Are you willing to trust military intelligence to a government in which the President, who was warned about how to dress and what not to say before his meeting with Donald Trump does Is exactly the opposite of what he was told not to do?

Ok I had to backpedal to this...why are we warning someone what to say or not to begin with? Is this a negotiation or a shakedown?

I doubt anyone briefed him on what to wear, they just chastised him for his choice. He previously vowed that he wouldn't dress up until after the war is over. We had at least one President wear war fatigues in the White House to show solidarity with his men. In a room full of Americans, Zelenskyy was the only one channeling Captain America.

 

[Lunarorbit]

We're not actively helping Russia. We're just not spending money on a war we shouldn't be involved in. You know what Europe can do? Europe can stop buying gas and oil from Russia if they really feel Putin is a threat to them.

Honestly i'm sick of tired of europeans bitching about how bad Russia is to democracy but then they're willing to fuel the Russian economy.

No the trump administration is actively helping Russia.

-He directed the cia to stop sharing intelligence with Ukraine.

-Trump said the same thing to Britain about sharing us intelligence with Ukraine

-Stopped cyber security investigation into Russia

-Musk has already disturbed and is removing starlink from Ukraine

-Shameful performance with zelensky at white house reinforces Russians belief that Trump is on their side. Russia has been paying bounties on US soldiers for years.

So yeah trump is actively supporting russia. Its traitorous behavior

- This all started after Trump tried to blackmail Ukraine in his 1st presidency

 

[Bojji]

Ukraine is no ally and never has been.

Being attacked by US enemy makes them United States ally. Or at least that was the case before Trump, Putin is his BFF so that clearly erases ~80 years of conflicts between Russia and USA.

USA also signed some papers when they and Russia removed nukes from Ukraine, but who give a fuck, right?

People have really short memory when it comes to Russia, they always were the enemy of the free world and they always will be the enemy. America was the leader of the free world but Trump completely fucked it up.

 

[jason10mm]

No he is correct and Europeans don't fully grasp this. While Europeans spend all day talking to Americans on American websites in English, consuming American media, reading American news… Americans do not do the the reciprocal. There is no more cultural or religious ties to Europe. So instead of bashing Americans which will simply not work, Europeans need to do some marketing. Explain to the black dude in the rust belt why he should give a fuck about Europe.

What are you talking about? I appreciate a lot of european....culture

But yeah, it's hard to get americans to realize how often the thing they like is actually not american. It's just a funny accent for the most part.

 

[Ironbunny]

French mp saying how it is. Really happy to have the French being the voice of reason in all of this. Hopefully we can now kick Hungary to the curb.

 

[Bojji]

No the trump administration is actively helping Russia.

-He directed the cia to stop sharing intelligence with Ukraine.

-Trump said the same thing to Britain about sharing us intelligence with Ukraine

-Stopped cyber security investigation into Russia

-Musk has already disturbed and is removing starlink from Ukraine

-Shameful performance with zelensky at white house reinforces Russians belief that Trump is on their side. Russia has been paying bounties on US soldiers for years.

So yeah trump is actively supporting russia. Its traitorous behavior

- This all started after Trump tried to blackmail Ukraine in his 1st presidency

USA also voted alongside north Korea, Iran and Russia in UN.

 

[Lunarorbit]

USA also voted alongside north Korea, Iran and Russia in UN.

Yuck.

 

[jason10mm]

We are effectively rugpulling our ally during wartime. This is going to be in the history books as a dark day for the United States.

Add it to the list.

But just step back and think about it. How many of these "dark days" took place on American soil, or even on our continent?

No one sweats much that Rome deserted an ally, they remember the times ROME burned. Or Athens fell. Or Paris was taken.

It's always about the homeland, which is why the Civil War looms so large for us 150 years gone but shit we did yesterday, but somewhere over the hill and far away, matters little.

Democracies are notoriously bad at maintaining long term alliances because there is no singular person to enact them or ways to seal them with marriage and by blood.

 

[BlackTron]

No the trump administration is actively helping Russia.

-He directed the cia to stop sharing intelligence with Ukraine.

-Trump said the same thing to Britain about sharing us intelligence with Ukraine

-Stopped cyber security investigation into Russia

-Musk has already disturbed and is removing starlink from Ukraine

-Shameful performance with zelensky at white house reinforces Russians belief that Trump is on their side. Russia has been paying bounties on US soldiers for years.

So yeah trump is actively supporting russia. Its traitorous behavior

- This all started after Trump tried to blackmail Ukraine in his 1st presidency

People act like it's too silly to be true out of hand, but open your eyes. My take is people just take everything at face value immediately. There is never an opportunity to check its veracity or critical thinking to begin with. Trumps address to congress felt very good to watch, from an entertainer's point of view. It made you feel very good and optimistic. The only issue is it was the longest presidential address ever and nothing but straight bullshit. Every other thing is some sort of spun lie that originated from something kinda real...it's obvious he knows he can get away with it, because everyone claps no matter how retarded it is. A few times I felt like I could catch the house speaker's eyes go like "oh he's using that..." before applauding in lockstep.

I just about died when he talked about the excessive Social Security payments. Musk already embarrassed himself overhyping this finding of DOGE, only to walk it back because turns out, it didn't represent money and was something publicly known about the database for a decade. Trump used the numbers to brag about all the waste he's finding anyway, extremely boisterously...as if it were chosen exactly for how well he could deliver the material as an entertainer. He smugly mocked the Democrats in attendance, saying no matter how much good he does, nothing will EVER make them happy or cheer...when he knows the real reason they're dead silent is they know it's all bull.

This went on for 1hr 40 minutes I almost fell asleep.

 

[ProtoByte]

Wouldn't it be accurate to say that the entire western world has pulled the rug out from Ukraine, and the US is now just being more brazen about it? Yes, pausing aid and intelligence assistance are a significant change (that I don't agree with) but why did sufficiently pro-Ukraine America and Europe not pipe up and solve the problem before if they wanted to and were able to over the last 3 years?

Arguably, since at least 2014, and others say the 90s, America and the EU have done absolutely nothing to tangibly secure Ukraine. The EU's oil outreach to Russia has been stated many times over, but even last year during the war, the EU spent more money on "sanctioned" Russian oil than they did aid to Ukraine.

Fact Check: Did Europe spend more on Russian oil and gas than Ukraine aid?

President Donald Trump made the claim during his address to Congress.

www.newsweek.com

One of the biggest foreign policy issues I perceive is a misalignment of rhetoric and actual policy, assuming that the rhetoric is aligned with itself at all.

For example: The Ukraine and Israel/Gaza war is an interesting parallel here.Each faction of the western political collective has almost polar opposite views when comparing those conflicts.

 

[delirium trigger]

It's called having your cake and eating it too.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

EU gonna need to free up a lot of money somewhere to actually do this

Europe must trim its welfare state to build a warfare state

There is no way of defending the continent without cuts to social spending

www.ft.com

 

[BlackTron]

It's called having your cake and eating it too.

Having your cake and eating it too could also be seen as setting up a global military and intelligence network with unfettered access all over the world, only to expect someone else to step up when something actually happens. I don't much blame them if they think America should just have sent enough to end it.

 

[AJUMP23]

EU gonna need to free up a lot of money somewhere to actually do this

Europe must trim its welfare state to build a warfare state

There is no way of defending the continent without cuts to social spending

www.ft.com

They could send all those "refugees" to fight.

 

[Yoda]

Sorry isn't this politics?????? cc @evillore

For my 2 freedom cents. Europe will have trouble funding and staffing such an endeavor. This is most likely posturing to try and improve the Ukraine outcome of the eventual negotiations. There's no way they'll obliterate their welfare programs to become (still 2nd place) world policeman. Americans already hate being world policeman, does the average EU citizen really want to do that??

Also last time Europe was heavily armed I'm pretty sure that lead to a WW, but I'm happy to be corrected