Oh sheeet, EU be juicing - $840 billion 'Rearm Europe' plan announced

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If you think that military spending is going to be meaningfully reduced in the long term then I have a M1074 Joint Assault Bridge System to sell you.
I dunno, I think we will see a significant shift. Obviously nothing like a 50% reduction but even a 10-15% shift is still hundreds of billions as the total expenditure is just staggering. This has happened after every war, and the 'war debt' now is HUGE.

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So you see the sabre rattling to try to keep the gravy train going but I predict a big drop. Of course folks will say our fleet is outdated, our air frames are old, our land forces need modernization. All of that is true, but WHY do we need those things....really? What conflict needs a M2 MBT versus the thousands of M1s we already have? Will 5th gen airfighters really turn the tide over drones? Will stealth AEGIS destroyers and Seawolf subs really be necessary? We can already see what the next phase of warfare will be, it's drones and AI attacks on electronic infrastructure. 1000 ships crossing the sea to land soldiers on hostile soil is...quaint, really.
 
It's a shame that France and most of Europe is completely fucked 🤣🤣🤣

Look at the UK, our armed forces are mainly filled with folk who are pretty much pushed into it by their parents, a lot of them are folk with few skills who have come through things like the duke of York qualifications.

We've dismantled our military bit by bit over the years.

I'm just glad we have Trident and the SAS.
 
I dunno, I think we will see a significant shift. Obviously nothing like a 50% reduction but even a 10-15% shift is still hundreds of billions as the total expenditure is just staggering. This has happened after every war, and the 'war debt' now is HUGE.

PWIJczD.gif


So you see the sabre rattling to try to keep the gravy train going but I predict a big drop. Of course folks will say our fleet is outdated, our air frames are old, our land forces need modernization. All of that is true, but WHY do we need those things....really? What conflict needs a M2 MBT versus the thousands of M1s we already have? Will 5th gen airfighters really turn the tide over drones? Will stealth AEGIS destroyers and Seawolf subs really be necessary? We can already see what the next phase of warfare will be, it's drones and AI attacks on electronic infrastructure. 1000 ships crossing the sea to land soldiers on hostile soil is...quaint, really.
But why do you forsee peace in the future? You think China isn't eyeing the Ukraine situation and thinking about Taiwan with renewed interest? God knows what will happen in the Middle East.
I'm really not confident that we aren't heading into more turbulent times rather than less, even if the US manages to stay out of most of it, increasing militirization across the globe will justify continued defense spending.
 
The world is getting to a very scary place.
Always been that way. For most nations, the idiot talking heads rotate in and out every few years. Canada is moving more towards a banana republic with a new PM and no elections. This is scary as much as disappointing.

IBTL.
 
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Nice. Let's hope this is invested in production facilities and everything is built in europe. Then, we can stop buying from america.
Next, invest in chip factories in european soil.
Nice one Trump :D
 
But why do you forsee peace in the future? You think China isn't eyeing the Ukraine situation and thinking about Taiwan with renewed interest? God knows what will happen in the Middle East.
I'm really not confident that we aren't heading into more turbulent times rather than less, even if the US manages to stay out of most of it, increasing militirization across the globe will justify continued defense spending.
That's saber rattling.

Why would be have CONSTANT war? How could we possibly afford it? We (the US) pretty much keep a carrier battle group in that area ALL THE TIME. We have bases in Japan and Korea, as well across the SE pacific region.

But Taiwan is only 100+ miles from China. They are tiny by comparison. Taiwan has a GDP comparable to Poland. So they would be highly dependent on the US and any other regional partners (if any) to resist a Chinese invasion. Even then, the sheer logistics alone make it very expensive for China and CRUSHINGLY expensive for the US.

Are the semi-conductors worth it? I gotta think Taiwan has those plants on a dead man switch as the ultimate leverage and the humans capable of exporting that technology are probably the most guarded on the island though I'm sure China is stealing/buying as much of that tech as possible.

The US should have a long introspective look inward about whether a war with China over Taiwan is 'worth it'. China is highly vulnerable to attacks against their food and energy systems but they have ridiculous numerical superiority, a strong home court advantage, and who knows what deterrence tech. Taiwan is a hard target, no doubt, but if the entire Chinese military commits, it's toast. All the US could do is get revenge.

The question then becomes...can China actually capitalize on that cost effort? It would likely destroy most of their fleet and air force, consume vast amounts of munitions and manpower, and they have really big and possibly belligerent neighbors.

The global goal should be everyone being secure and confident in themselves. Take care of your own people first, freely participate in the global economy, and not be picked on. But the reality is that weak countries sit on valuable geography, technology shifts what constitutes a marketable resource, and like life, countries themselves are ALWAYS in flux, never static.
 
Do we also have to speak german too in there next bill.

Arming europe what could go wrong.

Smartest post yet.

As Trump would say "I have all the cards, you don't have any". Now we're encouraging everyone to stack their decks. Great plan! Simultaneously pull support and cooperate with Russia. No one will ever feel safe without their own force ever again.

Of course that build-up of weapons will create opportunity for more instability later as different leaders change over time.
 
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Smartest post yet.

As Trump would say "I have all the cards, you don't have any". Now we're encouraging everyone to stack their decks. Great plan! Simultaneously pull support and cooperate with Russia. No one will ever feel safe without their own force ever again.

Of course that build-up of weapons will create opportunity for more instability later as different leaders change over time.

You're assuming this plan for a European army is going to go ahead when the EU itself is falling apart at the seams! Every major national government barely holding onto power in the face of massive populist movements seeking to regain autonomy/sovereignity!

Press X to doubt.
 
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Smartest post yet.

As Trump would say "I have all the cards, you don't have any". Now we're encouraging everyone to stack their decks. Great plan! Simultaneously pull support and cooperate with Russia. No one will ever feel safe without their own force ever again.

Of course that build-up of weapons will create opportunity for more instability later as different leaders change over time.
I'm not looking to start a debate. Just pointing out there is another school of thought. If more of the prosperous countries rely on themselves for deterrence, the more the US can scale back and either pay down the deficit or invest in its own people. It's not partisan to recognize other countries have more robust social safety nets than the US.
 
I'm not looking to start a debate. Just pointing out there is another school of thought. If more of the prosperous countries rely on themselves for deterrence, the more the US can scale back and either pay down the deficit or invest in its own people. It's not partisan to recognize other countries have more robust social safety nets than the US.

I don't think there is much, if any direct correlation between the deficit, taking care of Americans, and supporting Europe. If any, there is a positive indirect correlation for American prosperity by supporting Europe.

People act like when we send 100 billion to Ukraine it's exactly 100 billion more we pay in taxes, or 100 billion less we receive in welfare. Which aside from being cynical and greedy, isn't even true. It simply doesn't work like that. Abandoning our allies will make paying the deficit harder. It's an excuse not to focus on the what really needs to change, like extending tax cuts for billionaires and paying for it by taking from the poorest. Why not equalize the tax to pay some debt.
 
i really wish the United States would pull all troops out of Europe. Fuck Europe and let them protect themselves

Nauseating. When we have bombs flying at us I won't even blame them. Europe came together when we called for a coalition to help us in the middle east. But now that the tables have turned, fuck them. We're a worthless ally.
 
For a mere 3.5 percent of gdp the Americans neutralised Europe as any kind of military or trade rival.
It got unlimited access to military bases which allowed it to project it's military across the world... Paid for by the Europeans btw.
Built up a network of intelligence sharing the likes of which the world has never seen in five eyes.
Sold massive amounts of arms and big export items like the F35. NATO more often than not is based on the American standard, often at the expense of more capable systems.
Only one country has ever invoked article 5… which isn't bad going for an alliance that's approaching a century old.
 
Nauseating. When we have bombs flying at us I won't even blame them. Europe came together when we called for a coalition to help us in the middle east. But now that the tables have turned, fuck them. We're a worthless ally.
You mean when we trumped up charges against Iraq? Dude, I WISH Europe had told us to f off that day, mighta saved a lot of lives.

As for GW1, that affected everyone (at the time) so was more direct self-interest. Maybe had we gone farther then we could have ended a lot of problems now.
 
i really wish the United States would pull all troops out of Europe. Fuck Europe and let them protect themselves

You'd hurt yourself more than us.

I mean don't get me wrong, I'm under no illusions that the UK is no longer a world leading military, even though the SAS are still some of the best in the world and we have nuclear capabilities.

But the push to bring NATO further East is part of what's caused this conflict in Ukraine.

The 1991 agreement with Ukraine said that the UK and the USA would support Ukraine in the event of war with Russia as long as they surrendered their nuclear weapons that were left and seized from the USSR.

They had the third biggest set of nuclear weapons in the world at the time because the USSR wanted a boarder around Europe for the inevitable war where they try and claim more parts of Europe etc.

But there are military bases in Poland, Kosovo, Romania, Bulgaria etc. All places the USA promised not to build in.

The simple fact is rather than shed blood on American soil, you want us to fight the war first, much like what happened in WWII before Japan attacked. They want us to weaken the enemy as much as possible, which is why people are backing Ukraine also. If Russia felt it could just walk through Europe, it would. The US property in those bases would be seized by Russia. Likely reverse engineered also.

But if Europe falls, America is next. You lot have no idea what it's like having bombs dropped all over the country and not knowing if you'll wake up in the morning. With today's technology it's even more destructive. America would rather have these bases and be able to attack in advance, rather than not have them.

I know and agree that a lot of Europe hasn't pulled their weight with military spending. But the at the of the day, the USA wants to be the dominant force in the Americas, Russia in the old world and China in the East. You're playing a bigger game anyway. Only difference is your enemies are friends and America is pushing it's friends away.
 
The end of post-ww2 American hegemony is a bad thing. We've lived in a world of unprecedented peace and prosperity. That is looking like it's over now as we bully and discard our closest allies and empower our natural enemies, tearing apart the world order. It will be non-trivial to rebuild trust and cooperation going forward.

Good luck, EU.
 
The 1991 agreement with Ukraine said that the UK and the USA would support Ukraine in the event of war with Russia as long as they surrendered their nuclear weapons that were left and seized from the USSR.
That was a bad deal by Ukraine, no question.
The simple fact is rather than shed blood on American soil, you want us to fight the war first, much like what happened in WWII before Japan attacked. They want us to weaken the enemy as much as possible, which is why people are backing Ukraine also. If Russia felt it could just walk through Europe, it would. The US property in those bases would be seized by Russia. Likely reverse engineered also.
Russia's GDP sits between Italy and Spain, not even top 3 in the EU. Do you think SPAIN could walk through Europe? I'm not even sure the old USSR really could, TBH, but definitely not Russia. Warfare is too costly these days, there are far cheaper ways to get what you want.
 
But the push to bring NATO further East is part of what's caused this conflict in Ukraine.

This is the big Russian lie.
First because it implies that Ukraine belongs to Russia. Which it doesn't.
Second, because NATO was pretty much a walking corpse until Russia invaded Ukraine in 2014. Nobody cared about it and there were talks about ending it.
But when Russia started attacking Georgia and Ukraine, that is when everyone near Russia started to ask to join NATO.
Third, Putin as been talking about how Ukraine "is not a real country" for many years. In public.
This is 101 tactics of undermining a countries right to self determination, as a mean to prop up an invasion. It's exactly the same thing Hitler did with Poland before WW2.

The reality is that nobody forced Russia to invade Georgia, Crimea and Ukraine. That was Putin's plan all along. And he didn't even hide it.
 
Nice. Let's hope this is invested in production facilities and everything is built in europe. Then, we can stop buying from america.
Next, invest in chip factories in european soil.
Nice one Trump :D

That's ultimately the necessity.

It may be efficient to work with a hegemonic empire to the benefit of all but being overly dependant on it means that their failing or fallen empire cracks the global democratic order whenever it goes. Even early tremors have large repercussions.

Investments should be diversified to mitigate risk.

It's a bit surprising that Americans want more non-Americans with nuclear weapons and weapons it does not control, but it makes sense for everyone else.
 
Did you see the full 50 minutes?

It was the lamest shit I've ever seen. The supposed most powerful man on earth pretty much said... 'Trust me, I know Putin. He won't betray me or welch on the agreement'. Then went into a massive tirade about the media, Obama and the Bidens.

That is fucking madness, it'd be criminally negligent on Zelenskys or any leaders part to sign any agreement or treaty without cast iron guarantees.
 
The end of post-ww2 American hegemony is a bad thing. We've lived in a world of unprecedented peace and prosperity. That is looking like it's over now as we bully and discard our closest allies and empower our natural enemies, tearing apart the world order. It will be non-trivial to rebuild trust and cooperation going forward.

Good luck, EU.
We haven't though. It's just OUR part of the world thats enjoyed peace and prosperity, the rest have been in countless wars, revolutions, and massacres whilst being exploited by corporations backed by foreign governments conducting constant psyops.

Granted, as a guy living in one of the "best of times" places I'm okay with the gravy train staying flowing, but it's a bit duplicitous to suggest the entire globe has been feeding from it as well.

Most places never trust. It's always "what can you do for me....today".
 
You'd hurt yourself more than us.

I mean don't get me wrong, I'm under no illusions that the UK is no longer a world leading military, even though the SAS are still some of the best in the world and we have nuclear capabilities.

But the push to bring NATO further East is part of what's caused this conflict in Ukraine.

The 1991 agreement with Ukraine said that the UK and the USA would support Ukraine in the event of war with Russia as long as they surrendered their nuclear weapons that were left and seized from the USSR.

They had the third biggest set of nuclear weapons in the world at the time because the USSR wanted a boarder around Europe for the inevitable war where they try and claim more parts of Europe etc.

But there are military bases in Poland, Kosovo, Romania, Bulgaria etc. All places the USA promised not to build in.

The simple fact is rather than shed blood on American soil, you want us to fight the war first, much like what happened in WWII before Japan attacked. They want us to weaken the enemy as much as possible, which is why people are backing Ukraine also. If Russia felt it could just walk through Europe, it would. The US property in those bases would be seized by Russia. Likely reverse engineered also.

But if Europe falls, America is next. You lot have no idea what it's like having bombs dropped all over the country and not knowing if you'll wake up in the morning. With today's technology it's even more destructive. America would rather have these bases and be able to attack in advance, rather than not have them.

I know and agree that a lot of Europe hasn't pulled their weight with military spending. But the at the of the day, the USA wants to be the dominant force in the Americas, Russia in the old world and China in the East. You're playing a bigger game anyway. Only difference is your enemies are friends and America is pushing it's friends away.
Russia doesn't have the forces or capabilities to invade Europe LOL.. They have about 250,000 on the front lines in Ukraine. The fact that people think its 1943 still and the Russians are gonna push all the way to Warsaw is hilarious.
 
That was a bad deal by Ukraine, no question.

Russia's GDP sits between Italy and Spain, not even top 3 in the EU. Do you think SPAIN could walk through Europe? I'm not even sure the old USSR really could, TBH, but definitely not Russia. Warfare is too costly these days, there are far cheaper ways to get what you want.
Spain has been neglecting it's military for years and years.

Russia have far more resources. Their hellfire missiles could take out major cities stuff ease.

Plus the military agreements being made with BRICKS mean they'll have a lot more back up than people realise.
 
How? The Muslim immigrants are extreme minority. France has like 6mln of them being citizens, jack shit happens.
Eh, not in Paris. And look at the ages. That "extreme minority" of 5-10% (not that extreme, really) is very youthful, very culturally divergent, and very prolific, so their impact is outsized to their numbers, and those numbers will increase dramatically in just a few years as older "native" french die and the very prolific 'immigrant' population expands, particularly in your urban centers where they also have an outsized impact on national laws.

I'm not saying that muslim immigration is inherently bad or destructive, just that the way it's going so far certainly seems to be less than ideal for all parties and the eventual outcome is much less likely to look like a Christian founded nation with ideals rooted in Western democracy than we presumably would hope for.
 
The end of post-ww2 American hegemony is a bad thing. We've lived in a world of unprecedented peace and prosperity. That is looking like it's over now as we bully and discard our closest allies and empower our natural enemies, tearing apart the world order. It will be non-trivial to rebuild trust and cooperation going forward.

Good luck, EU.

For Europe, the point when we started to relax and just coast was after the fall of the Berlin wall. Before that, the spending of European allied countries was relatively high.
For a while it really seemed like we would finally had peace in the continent.
And Europe has benefited a lot from the peace dividends that came after the fall of the USSR.
Sadly those times are over and it's clear that Russia is back in to their old imperialism mantra.
When we look at individual European countries, it's obvious that it does not match the USA. Not in population, GDP, military, etc. But as a "United States of Europe", it's much closer on all metrics.

What is more concerning is that if the USA continue to distance from their European allies, several of them will start to consider developing their own nuclear weapons.
In the EU, only France and the UK have nuclear weapons. Germany hosts American nuclear weapons. But if the USA splits from the EU alliance, then Germany will make their own.
Poland in previous years have told the USA that they want to host nuclear weapons, because they saw the return of Russian imperialism, and they have a long history of suffering under it.
Once again, if the USA abandons the its's EU allies, then Poland will create their own.
And a similar thing will happen with other countries, such as Japan and Taiwan. Israel, supposedly, already have their own.

But what this means is that there will be a nuclear proliferation. One of the advantages of the Pax Americana was the limited proliferation of nuclear powers.
And when there are many more countries with nuclear weapons, there are more fail points, for a nuke to be used in anger.

One thing is what several US presidents have been doing, pushing the EU to increase their military budgets.
A whole different thing is what Trump is doing, by alienating the USA's oldest and most reliable patterners. This is neither good for the EU, nor for the USA.
And if the USA allows Ukraine to fall to Russia, a lot of current allied countries will see the USA as an unreliable partner.
This means nobody will trust the USA to mediate a peace deal in any future situation.
A situation, like that of a US President negotiating the peace deal in Northern Ireland, will never happen again, because nobody will trust the US again.
And this is bad for everyone, except dictatorships like Russia and China, that thrive in a world of suspicion and mistrust.
 
Spain has been neglecting it's military for years and years.

Russia have far more resources. Their hellfire missiles could take out major cities stuff ease.

Plus the military agreements being made with BRICKS mean they'll have a lot more back up than people realise.
I dunno about that.

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granted, its kinda silly to compare forces because tech plays such a force multiplier, but at least ON PAPER, Spain has a fairly robust military to work with. Russia, for comparison, has like 800,000 military though these days who knows really. AS for tech like missiles and long range bombardment, I think the EU has some depth there as well.

Of course, if they just stopped buying Russian oil....that'd leave a mark.
 
Like the UK or Germany. Who wants to defend a country that sends police to arrest or fine you for internet posts?
oh wow, reaction and post like this are a very good explanation why the US is destroying decades! of Softpower. Pure lack of education and or intelligence. I sometime forget how dumb US citizens can be. But well with this kind of education….
 
Russia doesn't have the forces or capabilities to invade Europe LOL.. They have about 250,000 on the front lines in Ukraine. The fact that people think its 1943 still and the Russians are gonna push all the way to Warsaw is hilarious.

The equate Russia to Soviet Union...which it isnt.
 
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