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[BlackTron]

You mean when we trumped up charges against Iraq? Dude, I WISH Europe had told us to f off that day, mighta saved a lot of lives.

As for GW1, that affected everyone (at the time) so was more direct self-interest. Maybe had we gone farther then we could have ended a lot of problems now.

That just makes it even worse.

They stood by us as trusted allies when we misled them, and didn't even complain. Now that there is a real army invading on their turf, complete abandonment.

 

[EviLore]

For Europe, the point when we started to relax and just coast was after the fall of the Berlin wall. Before that, the spending of European allied countries was relatively high.
For a while it really seemed like we would finally had peace in the continent.
And Europe has benefited a lot from the peace dividends that came after the fall of the USSR.
Sadly those times are over and it's clear that Russia is back in to their old imperialism mantra.
When we look at individual European countries, it's obvious that it does not match the USA. Not in population, GDP, military, etc. But as a "United States of Europe", it's much closer on all metrics.

What is more concerning is that if the USA continue to distance from their European allies, several of them will start to consider developing their own nuclear weapons.
In the EU, only France and the UK have nuclear weapons. Germany hosts American nuclear weapons. But if the USA splits from the EU alliance, then Germany will make their own.
Poland in previous years have told the USA that they want to host nuclear weapons, because they saw the return of Russian imperialism, and they have a long history of suffering under it.
Once again, if the USA abandons the its's EU allies, then Poland will create their own.
And a similar thing will happen with other countries, such as Japan and Taiwan. Israel, supposedly, already have their own.

But what this means is that there will be a nuclear proliferation. One of the advantages of the Pax Americana was the limited proliferation of nuclear powers.
And when there are many more countries with nuclear weapons, there are more fail points, for a nuke to be used in anger.

One thing is what several US presidents have been doing, pushing the EU to increase their military budgets.
A whole different thing is what Trump is doing, by alienating the USA's oldest and most reliable patterners. This is neither good for the EU, nor for the USA.
And if the USA allows Ukraine to fall to Russia, a lot of current allied countries will see the USA as an unreliable partner.
This means nobody will trust the USA to mediate a peace deal in any future situation.
A situation, like that of a US President negotiating the peace deal in Northern Ireland, will never happen again, because nobody will trust the US again.
And this is bad for everyone, except dictatorships like Russia and China, that thrive in a world of suspicion and mistrust.

Yes. Authoritarianism and nuclear war are on the horizon.

 

[winjer]

i really wish the United States would pull all troops out of Europe. Fuck Europe and let them protect themselves

One thing you don't understand is that the US didn't keep troops and nuclear weapons in Europe just to protect Europe.
It also did that to control Europe. By having nuclear weapons hosted in Europe, it prevents the EU from becoming a major nuclear power.
The USA's former policy is that they wanted a strong Europe, but not a self sufficient Europe. Otherwise, Europe would set it's own course, in a lot of military matters.
If the USA alienates Europe, Japan and other allies, that means they will seek other alliances.
For example, ever since Trump started to impose huge tariffs in Europe, Canada and Japan, the result has been that these countries have started to get closer to China.
Even Japan, with it's long history against China, has made recent deals with China, because they are seeing the US as being an unreliable partner.

One thing that you might not understand, and Trump is too dumb to comprehend, is that the US is the world's biggest exporter of security. Not just for Europe.
And in many ways, it has allowed the US to benefit in political and economic matters all around the world.
For example, because the US was the main security guarantor for Saudi Arabia, it meant that the US had a saying in what prices SA would price it's oil.
It also allowed the US to call in a lot of favors in international matters. Another example, if the USA wasn't such a close ally to the EU, during the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan, most EU countries would have denied getting into that war, along side the US.
Another example, is how the US can convince Taiwan to boycott China with their chips.

 

[BlackTron]

You're assuming this plan for a European army is going to go ahead when the EU itself is falling apart at the seams! Every major national government barely holding onto power in the face of massive populist movements seeking to regain autonomy/sovereignity!

Press X to doubt.

So the plan is just to abandon Europe while assuming that actually they can't handle their own defense? We're deeper in bed with Russia than I thought!

 

[P:axMagellanic]

That just makes it even worse.

They stood by us as trusted allies when we misled them, and didn't even complain. Now that there is a real army invading on their turf, complete abandonment.

It was only last year that American and British aircraft/naval assets were downing Iranian and Houthi drones across Israel and the Red Sea

 

[BlackTron]

Trump won by a pretty slim margin. Slim enough I bet he couldn't have done it without the boost of dodging that gunshot. What that sniper accomplished that day is the very definition of irony. It's incredible what a difference in world history one person can make. It's perhaps an example of maybe you should allow democracy to run its course -and not fuck with it. At least MAGA waited until after they lost an election to try and reverse it.

Edit: I guess wait until it gets this bad

 

[jason10mm]

That just makes it even worse.

They stood by us as trusted allies when we misled them, and didn't even complain. Now that there is a real army invading on their turf, complete abandonment.

Yup, Ukraine got semi-screwed. Personally, even if they did still have nukes I think we would have a version of this war because I doubt they would nuke their own soil and I doubt they could have maintained a strategic nuclear capability. Regardless, the deal was a bad one for them although they are receiving billions upon billions in aid which isn't nothing, not to mention access to our surveillance systems which is invaluable.

Buuuut, eventually logistics wins. Ukraine only has so many people. Unless another country steps up with actual divisions on the ground then the size disparity combined with a shared land border will tell the tale. Russia still sending convicts? I feel like all that discussion as faded from regular discussion.

 

[Clear]

That just makes it even worse.

They stood by us as trusted allies when we misled them, and didn't even complain. Now that there is a real army invading on their turf, complete abandonment.

But its not exactly on Europe's turf. Adjacent sure, but Ukraine was part of the USSR until 1991.

Also, what is the alternative to finding some sort of diplomatic settlement with Putin? Regime change -the goto move for the past 50 years- is out of the question, as is military domination of Russian forces.

Is an endless proxy war really a better way forward, so we can all feel good "that we're doing our part" and supporting the underdog versus the oppressor, especially as its not our kids being conscripted and sent to the frontlines...

I know, I know. Appeasing Putin by giving him some pound of flesh in the form of territorial gain is distasteful, but rationally its the lesser evil in my opinion because at least it will stop the bloodshed for a time.

As for those who say that'll just give him time to re-arm... guess what: He'll rearm anyway. The Chinese won't turn their backs and as Russia is so rich in material resources and is a net energy exporter so sanctions aren't going to do shit anyway. Just like they've failed to slow them down over the past 3 years.

Sorry guys, the way I see it is that some people's distaste for Trump is blinding them to the fact that forcing the Ukrainians and the Russians to the bargaining table is the right policy.

Its painful to me that so many people are willing to fund the Uktrainians in an unending war that they've never had a hope in hell of winning. Since day#1 the only realistically attainable positive outcome was to make prosecuting the war so painful for Putin that he'd be willing to take concessions versus annexing the whole of Ukraine. You know, the *UNTHINKABLE* option that the US administration is proposing.

 

[P:axMagellanic]

Yup, Ukraine got semi-screwed. Personally, even if they did still have nukes I think we would have a version of this war because I doubt they would nuke their own soil and I doubt they could have maintained a strategic nuclear capability. Regardless, the deal was a bad one for them although they are receiving billions upon billions in aid which isn't nothing, not to mention access to our surveillance systems which is invaluable.

Buuuut, eventually logistics wins. Ukraine only has so many people. Unless another country steps up with actual divisions on the ground then the size disparity combined with a shared land border will tell the tale. Russia still sending convicts? I feel like all that discussion as faded from regular discussion.

You pulled military aid yesterday, and intelligence sharing today. In fact you put a prohibition on Britain sharing that 5eyes intelligence with Ukraine.

This is on top of you suspending cyber operations against Russia.

 

[InterMusketeer]

World tension is increasing.

 

[Ironbunny]

But its not exactly on Europe's turf. Adjacent sure, but Ukraine was part of the USSR until 1991.

Also, what is the alternative to finding some sort of diplomatic settlement with Putin? Regime change -the goto move for the past 50 years- is out of the question, as is military domination of Russian forces.

Disintegration of ruZZia due to financial failure. Heads will roll on ruZZia fast when its time.

Is an endless proxy war really a better way forward, so we can all feel good "that we're doing our part" and supporting the underdog versus the oppressor, especially as its not our kids being conscripted and sent to the frontlines...

Yes. Living next to ruZZia and having history of what Ukraine is going through now. Yes its the way to do it.

I know, I know. Appeasing Putin by giving him some pound of flesh in the form of territorial gain is distasteful, but rationally its the lesser evil in my opinion because at least it will stop the bloodshed for a time.

Appeasing Putin now will only guarantee more bloodshed in the future.

As for those who say that'll just give him time to re-arm... guess what: He'll rearm anyway. The Chinese won't turn their backs and as Russia is so rich in material resources and is a net energy exporter so sanctions aren't going to do shit anyway. Just like they've failed to slow them down over the past 3 years.

They are using donkeys and horses now.

 

[jason10mm]

Its painful to me that so many people are willing to fund the Uktrainians in an unending war that they've never had a hope in hell of winning. Since day#1 the only realistically attainable positive outcome was to make prosecuting the war so painful for Putin that he'd be willing to take concessions versus annexing the whole of Ukraine. You know, the *UNTHINKABLE* option that the US administration is proposing.

Agreed. While it's largely an academic exercise to most of us, it's deaths in that region. And for the folks living there, "winning" is VERY likely to look just like "losing" at this point.

The good news, maybe, is that Putin is such a singular force in Russia that when he inevitably dies the power vacuum will suck in all of Russia and let Ukraine reclaim their territory in a few years. But a lawless Russia in a civil war should be NO ONE'S idea of a "good thing" so while I want Putin gone, I also want a smooth transfer of power to someone with a more moderate temperament who can weather the economic shitstorm as they try to recover from this conflict.

Russia has lost what, somewhere between 300 and EIGHT HUNDRED THOUSAND troops? Thats like 5x+ the tally of Vietnam and Korean wars COMBINED and far greater than what they lost in Afghanistan. I don't think folks can understand the colossal losses this represents in both human life and equipment.

The impact to Ukraine is colossal as well, what they will emerge as after all this is a big question mark. There is no guarantee that massive EU/US aid will result in a country that is allied with us, there are plenty of examples where it backfires.

 

[BlackTron]

But its not exactly on Europe's turf. Adjacent sure,

Hard to take that seriously enough to respond...

Also, what is the alternative to finding some sort of diplomatic settlement with Putin? Regime change -the goto move for the past 50 years- is out of the question, as is military domination of Russian forces.

Is an endless proxy war really a better way forward, so we can all feel good "that we're doing our part" and supporting the underdog versus the oppressor, especially as its not our kids being conscripted and sent to the frontlines...

I know, I know. Appeasing Putin by giving him some pound of flesh in the form of territorial gain is distasteful, but rationally its the lesser evil in my opinion because at least it will stop the bloodshed for a time.

As for those who say that'll just give him time to re-arm... guess what: He'll rearm anyway. The Chinese won't turn their backs and as Russia is so rich in material resources and is a net energy exporter so sanctions aren't going to do shit anyway. Just like they've failed to slow them down over the past 3 years.

Sorry guys, the way I see it is that some people's distaste for Trump is blinding them to the fact that forcing the Ukrainians and the Russians to the bargaining table is the right policy.

Its painful to me that so many people are willing to fund the Uktrainians in an unending war that they've never had a hope in hell of winning. Since day#1 the only realistically attainable positive outcome was to make prosecuting the war so painful for Putin that he'd be willing to take concessions versus annexing the whole of Ukraine. You know, the *UNTHINKABLE* option that the US administration is proposing.

Ukraine came to the bargaining table willingly. They just don't want the fighting to stop in response to complete emasculation and pulling their pants down. The way they're doing it, Russia and America are cornering and bullying Ukraine into taking a bad deal, which poorly guarantees their further security. It's basically exchanging half their future minerals for a verbal IOU promise that Putin won't renege on the ceasefire. And when he didn't like that, they intentionally mocked him for "not being thankful" on live TV. No more negotiating, just sign the paper you ungrateful little gremlin! BTW why didn't you wear a suit???

Of course he should demand security guarantees in the writing. He's giving away all the minerals for what else exactly? A flimsy cease fire? Now Trump is offended so he's pulling support to pressure Ukraine into signing the deal. Enriching the US and helping Russia, at the expense of an international order based on rule of law.

 

[EviLore]

Hard to take that seriously enough to respond...



Ukraine came to the bargaining table willingly. They just don't want the fighting to stop in response to complete emasculation and pulling their pants down. The way they're doing it, Russia and America are cornering and bullying Ukraine into taking a bad deal, which poorly guarantees their further security. It's basically exchanging half their future minerals for a verbal IOU promise that Putin won't renege on the ceasefire. And when he didn't like that, they intentionally mocked him for "not being thankful" on live TV. No more negotiating, just sign the paper you ungrateful little gremlin! BTW why didn't you wear a suit???

Of course he should demand security guarantees in the writing. He's giving away all the minerals for what else exactly? A flimsy cease fire? Now Trump is offended so he's pulling support to pressure Ukraine into signing the deal. Enriching the US and helping Russia, at the expense of an international order based on rule of law.

Mafia tactics. A protection deal with no actual protection. Ask for protection as part of the deal and get kicked out, threatened, and smeared.

 

[Durien]

For Europe, the point when we started to relax and just coast was after the fall of the Berlin wall. Before that, the spending of European allied countries was relatively high.
For a while it really seemed like we would finally had peace in the continent.
And Europe has benefited a lot from the peace dividends that came after the fall of the USSR.
Sadly those times are over and it's clear that Russia is back in to their old imperialism mantra.
When we look at individual European countries, it's obvious that it does not match the USA. Not in population, GDP, military, etc. But as a "United States of Europe", it's much closer on all metrics.

What is more concerning is that if the USA continue to distance from their European allies, several of them will start to consider developing their own nuclear weapons.
In the EU, only France and the UK have nuclear weapons. Germany hosts American nuclear weapons. But if the USA splits from the EU alliance, then Germany will make their own.
Poland in previous years have told the USA that they want to host nuclear weapons, because they saw the return of Russian imperialism, and they have a long history of suffering under it.
Once again, if the USA abandons the its's EU allies, then Poland will create their own.
And a similar thing will happen with other countries, such as Japan and Taiwan. Israel, supposedly, already have their own.

But what this means is that there will be a nuclear proliferation. One of the advantages of the Pax Americana was the limited proliferation of nuclear powers.
And when there are many more countries with nuclear weapons, there are more fail points, for a nuke to be used in anger.

One thing is what several US presidents have been doing, pushing the EU to increase their military budgets.
A whole different thing is what Trump is doing, by alienating the USA's oldest and most reliable patterners. This is neither good for the EU, nor for the USA.
And if the USA allows Ukraine to fall to Russia, a lot of current allied countries will see the USA as an unreliable partner.
This means nobody will trust the USA to mediate a peace deal in any future situation.
A situation, like that of a US President negotiating the peace deal in Northern Ireland, will never happen again, because nobody will trust the US again.
And this is bad for everyone, except dictatorships like Russia and China, that thrive in a world of suspicion and mistrust.

In my opinion, it isn't the nukes we need to worry about. Nuclear weapons make the land less hospitable and with climate changing, nations need fertile land for crops. I think the bigger worry would be things worse than covid that deplete population and overrun infrastructure. All the deaths while the environment remains viable.

 

[winjer]

In my opinion, it isn't the nukes we need to worry about. Nuclear weapons make the land less hospitable and with climate changing, nations need fertile land for crops. I think the bigger worry would be things worse than covid that deplete population and overrun infrastructure. All the deaths while the environment remains viable.

The problem with nukes is that there is no middle ground. It's a binary situation.
Either they are not used, or they kill everyone.
Ideally, we will never, ever use them.

 

[BlackTron]

Mafia tactics. A protection deal with no actual protection. Ask for protection as part of the deal and get kicked out, threatened, and smeared.

Exactly, and then you watch everyone cheering for it.

 

[P:axMagellanic]

But its not exactly on Europe's turf. Adjacent sure, but Ukraine was part of the USSR until 1991.

Also, what is the alternative to finding some sort of diplomatic settlement with Putin? Regime change -the goto move for the past 50 years- is out of the question, as is military domination of Russian forces.

Is an endless proxy war really a better way forward, so we can all feel good "that we're doing our part" and supporting the underdog versus the oppressor, especially as its not our kids being conscripted and sent to the frontlines...

I know, I know. Appeasing Putin by giving him some pound of flesh in the form of territorial gain is distasteful, but rationally its the lesser evil in my opinion because at least it will stop the bloodshed for a time.

As for those who say that'll just give him time to re-arm... guess what: He'll rearm anyway. The Chinese won't turn their backs and as Russia is so rich in material resources and is a net energy exporter so sanctions aren't going to do shit anyway. Just like they've failed to slow them down over the past 3 years.

Sorry guys, the way I see it is that some people's distaste for Trump is blinding them to the fact that forcing the Ukrainians and the Russians to the bargaining table is the right policy.

Its painful to me that so many people are willing to fund the Uktrainians in an unending war that they've never had a hope in hell of winning. Since day#1 the only realistically attainable positive outcome was to make prosecuting the war so painful for Putin that he'd be willing to take concessions versus annexing the whole of Ukraine. You know, the *UNTHINKABLE* option that the US administration is proposing.

There is no diplomatic settlement with Putin. He's a product of the soviet education system. He sees Ukrainian existence as anathema and a humiliation to Russia. He considers Ukraine as part of the Russian core. There's endless interviews with him concerning this.

So yes, if the US and Europe want to guarantee the existence of Ukraine as an independent state, the only way realistically is to make the war so costly that it makes his position at home dangerous for him personally.

Now, whether Ukraine is important to the US's interests is an entirely different discussion, but that also applies to the Ukrainians having agency in the matter of them wishing to keep fighting without the Americans.
At the end of the day they haven't lost or capitulated, the Ukrainian military is still in the field and intact. So trump saying Zelensky having 'no cards' is bullshit, frankly.

 

[ScHlAuChi]

Of course he should demand security guarantees in the writing. He's giving away all the minerals for what else exactly? A flimsy cease fire? Now Trump is offended so he's pulling support to pressure Ukraine into signing the deal. Enriching the US and helping Russia, at the expense of an international order based on rule of law.

Not only that, but alot of people forget that the US has already betrayed Ukraine before - by promising them protection if they give up their nukes:

Fact Check: Did Ukraine give up nukes for Russia, U.S. security guarantees?

Amid calls for peace talks and "security guarantees" for Russia, Ukrainian officials have referenced the Budapest Memorandum in retort, but what was it?

www.newsweek.com

 

[BlackTron]

Time to start being a little more self aware guys. For things I'm saying on the Internet lately, I've already accepted the risk I might end up on some sort of list later. I don't expect it to be a big deal until closer to 2028. That's just it, they're already going "Trump 2028!"

Trump already tried to prevent losing power once. This time he acted quickly to stamp out most of the machinations that can stop him. Real patriots are going to be the wrong side soon. In my preferred timeline, the military arrests him for trying to strongarm them into unlawful orders they think are too insane (it's drilled into the entire chain not to follow unlawful orders, not just the top 3. So scarily enough they might be our best hope to save freedom, if they balk at instructions. FUCK!)

 

[thefool]

Every time i leave my house, it does in fact look like my country has been invaded. We will definitely need an army to deal with immigration.

 

[jason10mm]

You pulled military aid yesterday, and intelligence sharing today. In fact you put a prohibition on Britain sharing that 5eyes intelligence with Ukraine.

This is on top of you suspending cyber operations against Russia.

Could be.

Trump wants his compromise peace deal, probably because he thinks the US will profit from it. So he pulls some support from Ukraine to get Russia to the table. Can always reinstate it if Russia walks away.

Ultimately if the US is so critical to Ukraine's chances of success then they need to accept a deal if that's what the US wants. If the EU wants to keep fighting so badly then they can send in forces of their own. Or buy their oil from someone else. But it's highly likely that if the occupied region really does want to stay Ukranian then in a few years once central Russian authority and their ability to project power down to the Crimea collapses, they can just take it back and probably more in return.

 

[BlackTron]

Every time i leave my house, it does in fact look like my country has been invaded. We will definitely need an army to deal with immigration.

Trump mostly needs the army for Democrats, not immigrants. Get it right.

In the 2024 election's final weeks, former President Donald Trump has repeatedly spotlighted what he calls "the enemy from within."

On Oct. 9, he told supporters in Scranton, Pennsylvania, that Vice President Kamala Harris is surrounded by "very smart, very vicious people" who are "the enemy from within."

On Oct. 13, he told Fox News' Maria Bartiromo that U.S. Rep. Adam Schiff, D-Calif., is "the enemy from within" and, asked about the possibility of Election Day chaos, warned of "very bad people," "radical left lunatics" who should be handled if "necessary" by the National Guard or the military.

Uh yeah, in that context, you don't wanna hear this next...

Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth said Monday that the three fired judge advocates general (JAGs) were potential "roadblocks" to President Trump's orders.

"It's not about roadblocks to an agenda," Hegseth told reporters when asked how the military lawyers present roadblocks.

"It's roadblocks to orders that are given by a commander in chief," he said.

We're in deep shit guys...

 

[jason10mm]

The problem with nukes is that there is no middle ground. It's a binary situation.
Either they are not used, or they kill everyone.
Ideally, we will never, ever use them.

That's not actually true, though it depends on the scale of the nukes and what is hit.

I've totally seen folks advocate for tactical nukes which seem like a fairly reasonable measure when back is to the wall. It's ICBMs and hitting cities that will trigger WW3. Should China and the US navy get serious in the Strait of Taiwan I can see nuclear strikes at sea. Very little visible damage, hard to have uncontrolled images of it, etc.

 

[EviLore]

Time to start being a little more self aware guys. For things I'm saying on the Internet lately, I've already accepted the risk I might end up on some sort of list later. I don't expect it to be a big deal until closer to 2028. That's just it, they're already going "Trump 2028!"

Trump already tried to prevent losing power once. This time he acted quickly to stamp out most of the machinations that can stop him. Real patriots are going to be the wrong side soon. In my preferred timeline, the military arrests him for trying to strongarm them into unlawful orders they think are too insane (it's drilled into the entire chain not to follow unlawful orders, not just the top 3. So scarily enough they might be our best hope to save freedom, if they balk at instructions. FUCK!)

A few people in congress are pushing that kind of nonsense, but we always have a few absolutely retarded people in congress who say crazy, fringe things. We're nowhere close to the point of actually cancelling elections.

 

[6502]

Awful how things have come about, but Europe and UK re-arming is essential no matter what.
*Slightly tongue in cheek* but USA is currently acting like an imperial power and frankly if we are going back to a world like that I'd rather be French or British. Not that long ago USA was a colony not worth the effort, a few bad moves and events changed that dramatically in a few generations. That wheel can revolve again, we just can't believe you are forcing it on yourselves and cheering. The pace this lot are going 4 years may just be long enough to damage USA permanently.... anyway come over for a cuppa tea and stay long enough for us to cut our addiction (and relevance of) usa influence. Trust and confidence eroded in a week.
What a circus.

 

[Clear]

There is no diplomatic settlement with Putin. He's a product of the soviet education system. He sees Ukrainian existence as anathema and a humiliation to Russia. He considers Ukraine as part of the Russian core. There's endless interviews with him concerning this.

True. But like I said, what're the options? WW3 doesn't sound appealing to me.

Look I don't buy into the argument that NATO's Eastern expansion drove him to this, he does wish to expand his territory by reclaiming former Soviet states. The fact remains that Russia is a nuclear superpower, and cannot easily be bullied into line. Especially given the clear decline of the Western powers over the last few decades.

So yes, if the US and Europe want to guarantee the existence of Ukraine as an independent state, the only way realistically is to make the war so costly that it makes his position at home dangerous for him personally.

Putin has been running Russia for the last 25 years, he's a very effective despot. So I'm sorry but I don't see him loosening his grip on power anytime soon.

Now, whether Ukraine is important to the US's interests is an entirely different discussion, but that also applies to the Ukrainians having agency in the matter of them wishing to keep fighting without the Americans.
At the end of the day they haven't lost or capitulated, the Ukrainian military is still in the field and intact. So trump saying Zelensky having 'no cards' is bullshit, frankly.

"Intact" is a stretch. They are barely holding the line and that's thanks to heavy backing. Do some reading of actual military analysis on the war, it paints a vastly different picture to that presented in the media.

On that note I find it particularly funny how people seem willing to believe the media line on this significant strategic conflict, despite them waking up to the fact of how manipulated and propagandized the coverage of domestic policy has been for the past few years.

 

[jason10mm]

Time to start being a little more self aware guys. For things I'm saying on the Internet lately, I've already accepted the risk I might end up on some sort of list later. I don't expect it to be a big deal until closer to 2028. That's just it, they're already going "Trump 2028!"

Trump already tried to prevent losing power once. This time he acted quickly to stamp out most of the machinations that can stop him. Real patriots are going to be the wrong side soon. In my preferred timeline, the military arrests him for trying to strongarm them into unlawful orders they think are too insane (it's drilled into the entire chain not to follow unlawful orders, not just the top 3. So scarily enough they might be our best hope to save freedom, if they balk at instructions. FUCK!)

This is so ludicrous and insane that I feel like a bot has taken control of your account. This is the type of stuff I see on instagram. In what wacky world does Trump run again? The only people saying that are the folks who ramrodded Kamala through.

But yeah, let's give an 80+ year old man the ability to run a third time, seems like it'll all work out on its own

 

[AJUMP23]

How are we (France) fucked?

Our own aircraft FUCKING carrier? Check.

Only one, how quaint.

 

[AgatonSax]

Well Europe has been coasting for a long time under the illusion of benign American protection. It needs to stand firm and project power so this a huge opportunity. I hope Trump pulls out altogether; if America wants to retreat up its own asshole that's it's business. It'll never get that soft power back though.

 

[HRK69]

Only one, how quaint.

Pretty useless when the nukes start falling

 

[EviLore]

How are we (France) fucked?

Our own submarines? Check.
Our own fighter jets? Check.
Our own aircraft FUCKING carrier? Check.
Own guns? Check. Refuel tanker planes? Check. Howitzers? Check.

On the energy front - 57 operational nuclear reactors

Not to mention France's new impenetrable defense against eastern aggression!

 

[FullMetalx117]

Eh, not in Paris. And look at the ages. That "extreme minority" of 5-10% (not that extreme, really) is very youthful, very culturally divergent, and very prolific, so their impact is outsized to their numbers, and those numbers will increase dramatically in just a few years as older "native" french die and the very prolific 'immigrant' population expands, particularly in your urban centers where they also have an outsized impact on national laws.

I'm not saying that muslim immigration is inherently bad or destructive, just that the way it's going so far certainly seems to be less than ideal for all parties and the eventual outcome is much less likely to look like a Christian founded nation with ideals rooted in Western democracy than we presumably would hope for.

Hmmm...pre 9/11 the muslim bloc actually overwhelmingly voted conservative, 70% of them voted for Bush. Their ideals naturally align with whatever party evangelical christians would back. The progressive turn is recent and arguably caused by the villainization from the party they originally supported

 

[AJUMP23]

Pretty useless when the nukes start falling

I would want to be out in the ocean on a carrier if the nukes did launch.

I don't think anyone is going to use nukes.

 

[poppabk]

One thing you don't understand is that the US didn't keep troops and nuclear weapons in Europe just to protect Europe.
It also did that to control Europe. By having nuclear weapons hosted in Europe, it prevents the EU from becoming a major nuclear power.
The USA's former policy is that they wanted a strong Europe, but not a self sufficient Europe. Otherwise, Europe would set it's own course, in a lot of military matters.
If the USA alienates Europe, Japan and other allies, that means they will seek other alliances.
For example, ever since Trump started to impose huge tariffs in Europe, Canada and Japan, the result has been that these countries have started to get closer to China.
Even Japan, with it's long history against China, has made recent deals with China, because they are seeing the US as being an unreliable partner.

One thing that you might not understand, and Trump is too dumb to comprehend, is that the US is the world's biggest exporter of security. Not just for Europe.
And in many ways, it has allowed the US to benefit in political and economic matters all around the world.
For example, because the US was the main security guarantor for Saudi Arabia, it meant that the US had a saying in what prices SA would price it's oil.
It also allowed the US to call in a lot of favors in international matters. Another example, if the USA wasn't such a close ally to the EU, during the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan, most EU countries would have denied getting into that war, along side the US.
Another example, is how the US can convince Taiwan to boycott China with their chips.

Yeah I don't get how people don't understand that the current situation is by US design for the expanded influence and ultimately enrichment of the US.

 

[BlackTron]

A few people in congress are pushing that kind of nonsense, but we always have a few absolutely retarded people in congress who say crazy, fringe things. We're nowhere close to the point of actually cancelling elections.

I'm comforted that there are smart people who aren't worried, but this concern isn't sparked by crazies in congress (or twitter). I've been steadily more concerned the more of Trump's behavior I watch. I'm not parroting anything, it's my own concern based on events. I can easily see Trump using his manipulation tactics to blow a crisis out of proportion and declare martial law so he can "handle the emergency" as our savior. It appears he's been planning a while, and plants these little verbal seeds to test the waters. I didn't really fully flip until he replaced the JAGs. I don't know what he will do, but it seems clear he wants to test the limit, and it's up to everyone else to figure out where it is.

 

[BlackTron]

Yeah I don't get how people don't understand that the current situation is by US design for the expanded influence and ultimately enrichment of the US.

"I'll give you all these benefits worth $100 in exchange for $1"

*One Generation Later*

Fuck you why are we sending you this dollar? What are we even getting???

 

[T8SC]

This not locked yet?

 

[bundylove]

As a former european.

europe, you are irrelevant and meaningless.

Living in north america for the last 20 years this is as clear as it can get.

Your economy is garbage. Your prices are a joke.

You charge for a one bedroom apaetment in a shithole town the same as in canada downtown.

You tax your people up their ass.

But you have money for war? Is earupe again the driving force to start another world war? 2 was not enough?

 

[Killer8]

Many people are viewing the impact of Trump's re-election on European defence as a negative. It's more like a reality check for the continent.

The EU is a fraying alliance and countries were not paying their way towards NATO. These are simple facts. The ex-Secretary General of NATO, Jens Stoltenberg, has repeatedly admitted for years that Trump's push to boost spending amongst NATO-aligned countries was the correct path to take. Much like Trump's comments on Germany's over-reliance on Russian gas, no one listened during his first term. It was easier and more stylish to just smugly laugh at him.

Now there is war on the continent. As soon as there is a hint of America abandoning NATO, which let's face it is now a very real probability and would leave Europe completely up to their own devices, suddenly alarm bells to the tune of $840 billion are sounding to reverse decades of negligence. Fucking finally, I say. Not only that, you now have all of the EU leaders standing more united than ever. Sweden and Finland are now in NATO, almost completely solidifying the continent as a whole against outsider aggression. Whether you believe Trump is a Russian puppet sabotaging alliances or is just exercising a bit of tough love via 4D chess manoeuvres - it doesn't actually matter as the outcome ends up being the same.

Let's also not forget a couple of points. Trump is not forever and a NATO withdrawal can be reversed on day one of a Democrat being back in the White House. Being anti-NATO is also not exclusive to Trump. It's a sentiment shared as much by the 'anti-imperial' far left as it is by the populist "muh taxpayer money" MAGA right. Given how precarious America's future involvement might be, it is better for Europe to simply act as if America is not there - and if they decide to be there in future, well that would just be a nice bonus.

 

[BlackTron]

This not locked yet?

The Russia Ukraine thread has been locked for so long even the mods have to blow some steam before waiting for the next one.

 

[bitbydeath]

If the USA alienates Europe, Japan and other allies, that means they will seek other alliances.

Who does that leave exactly?

 

[winjer]

Who does that leave exactly?

Everyone else.

 

[bitbydeath]

Everyone else.

Sounds like America vs the world at that point.

 

[BlackTron]

Sounds like America vs the world at that point.

Don't forget Russia!

 

[Ironbunny]

As a former european.

europe, you are irrelevant and meaningless.

Living in north america for the last 20 years this is as clear as it can get.

Your economy is garbage. Your prices are a joke.

You charge for a one bedroom apaetment in a shithole town the same as in canada downtown.

You tax your people up their ass.

Interesting to read this as there is many US people who say the exact opposite now that they are living in Europe. Where in Europe did you move from? Cant really relate to anything you wrote here but the taxes. Which I''m quite fine to pay considering what I am getting in return.

But you have money for war? Is earupe again the driving force to start another world war? 2 was not enough?

ruZZia invaded.

 

[FullMetalx117]

Russia being an overwhelming, sophisticated military force and is "winning" is a red herring. If that were the case the Ukraine conflict wouldn't have lasted for more than a month let alone 3 years. They wouldn't have had to rely on Iran for weapons, request north korean missiles/cannon fodder, or have a semi mutiny in the middle from the leader of their most feared mercenary group.

Truthfully, most should be surprised Ukraine has held out this long, they've even won some battles. After this war, personally I have less fear from Russian, soviet grade weapons. They are not close to the west...

 

[jason10mm]

Hmmm...pre 9/11 the muslim bloc actually overwhelmingly voted conservative, 70% of them voted for Bush. Their ideals naturally align with whatever party evangelical christians would back. The progressive turn is recent and arguably caused by the villainization from the party they originally supported

The French voted for Bush?

Pre-9/11 the volume and origin of a lot of muslim immigrants was very different (both US and Europe) than in the subsequent decades.

The left and muslim alignment is short term at best. The muslim attitudes towards LGBT+ and women in general make them uneasy bedpartners at the best of times. The left is willing to allow itself to be exploited in this fashion.

 

[Hari Seldon]

I think 20+ years of Europeans bashing America to Americans on American websites in English is finally coming home to roost. Europe has no allies in the US anymore. Currently the left supports it, but only because they are not in power. If they were they would have a hard time convincing their coalition why they should fight yet another war between white people. Right wingers are sick of 20 years of GWOT and are willing to let the entire world burn. Getting mad at Americans is only going to be counter productive.

 

[winjer]

Sounds like America vs the world at that point.

In a certain way, yes.
If you remember history, the USA before entering WW1 had an isolationist policy.
After that, and especially after WW2, the USA forgo it's isolationist policy and made itself as the leading power in the world.
It had many assets, like it's economy, military, industry, etc. But a very important asset were it's allies, all around the world.
The USA became GREAT, by being open with the world, by having allies, by trading, by being a beacon of democracy.
If the USA isolates itself, it will become smaller. It's influence will diminish dramatically, both in political, economic and militarily.