Charlie Kirk assassinated at Utah campus event

Kacho said:
Jacksonville Jaguars Wtf GIF
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Sry i forgot Americans are not very good in geopolitic.
 
Wimbledon said:
To me he was grifter, i think he said shit to get a reaction , i've seen the way he debates i don't think he goes into them being genuine and trying to learn from the opposing side. He isn't the only who does this , alot of people do, to rage bait or get a reaction out of people. SO i stopped watching him because i think he's manipulative/divisive. people can also hide what they really think though but everyone has room to change as well.

Morality is a big thing to me, it not just about what you do with it. It's also about what you believe and how those beliefs affect the world. If you're world view for example is to dehumanize people even silently, your laying the groundwork for harm. Your ideas are seeds, some growing into violence and others into justice. I just think pretending that speech is neutral until it explodes is dangerously naive.
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That's how you've chosen to perceive Charlie. Neither of us knew him, so neither of us can speak in depth about what he's like as a person. You chose to go the cynical route, I've chosen to go the other way. When I was younger, I probably would have viewed him differently. But I give most people the benefit of the doubt now. I believe most people in this world are good. We wouldn't have gotten to where we did as a civilization if most people weren't. And I also know that a lot and I mean a lot of people in this world share Charlie's beliefs. So I ask myself how can those two things jive together? The answer to that question for me is no matter how much I may disagree with his takes on things, it's because I don't know him that I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt that he has these beliefs because he genuinely believes they are good for the world or believes he is doing good in the world by sharing them. And I believe overall as a society, if we have people who are trying to do good, society will thrive. Even if sometimes there are some missteps along the way.

If I saw videos of Charlie calling for deaths of people or something that appeared to me to be objectively and without a doubt malicious, I wouldn't be in the boat I'm in. But I didn't. I see a guy who has pretty common highly conservative beliefs, which many people share.
 
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Cyberpunkd said:
C'mon, why do you argue in bad faith? What will kill people faster - stabbing them one by one with a knife or opening fire with a semi-auto? Let's be real here. Nobody is saying 100% of violence is due to guns, but guns make it way easier to kill a lot of people very quickly.
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Mass shootings are maybe 1% of gun deaths in the US.
 
Locks, and fire alarm access ("pushing this bar triggers an alarm") has improved since then.

Safety regulations have tightened, not always allowing grandfathering.

Just because a building is old, doesn't mean it can be left without updating.

The campus I was referring to above has some pretty old buildings, and they have been updated.
 
stn said:
This constant 24/7 LEFT WING VERSUS RIGHT WING!!!!!!!!! shit has just made all of America insane.
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One of the most mentally refreshing parts of being out of country for vacation is being far away from this mess and not having to hear much about it.
 
ResilientBanana said:
You're playing ignorant is what you're doing. There's plenty of posts in here that explained everything that he's expressed as a Google search I just sent you. So you're very directly ignorant with me and I'm not buying into it. Read.
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What posts? There's one post which looks like a screenshot from a notepad with random sentences on it without sources.

You seem to be burying your head in the sand because you're scared to have to defend your own words.
 
Mr Moose said:


Looks like that leak thing earlier might've been legit.
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I'm going to wait on believing it was an actual trans until they find the murderer. Not that I believe it was an accelerationist, but there are too many questions about this and it's better that the people in charge make a thorough analysis and collect evidence properly.

But they should hopefully have DNA and fingerprints so that they can snatch the person. Also unless the person was a genious and left their phone home there should be digital tracks too. I am thinking about Bryan Kohberger who studied serial killers and still made a ton of mistakes.
 
daffyduck said:
Locks, and fire alarm access ("pushing this bar triggers an alarm") has improved since then.

Safety regulations have tightened, not always allowing grandfathering.

Just because a building is old, doesn't mean it can be left without updating.

The campus I was referring to above has some pretty old buildings, and they have been updated.
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Doesnt mean you get everything you want. Stop acting entitled. Ive been at these meetings you clearly have not.
 
Spukc said:
If you are trying for people to understand trans issues why in the fuck would you do it this way 🙃

I really hope this is BS
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Until the shooter is caught all bets are off. Normally something this outre and performative would suggest a fake - see Jessie Smollet, or that woman who wrote KKK and stuff on herself. However, there is precedence for this weird carving of ammo so in this case it may be a true message from the killer. Common sense says it was a lefty nut job at this point but I wouldn't commit yet.
 
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analog_future said:
Yeah, Kirk was not a good person. His murder was abhorrent and unforgivable, of course. That goes without saying from any rational person. But I'm also not going to pretend he was some standup guy.

There was yet another school shooting yesterday, and I'm frankly infinitely more distraught about that.

Here's what Charlie Kirk stood for:

  • Anti gay rights, anti gay marriage
• Said that most people are rightfully scared when the plane they're on is flown by a black pilot
• Taylor Swift should reject feminism, adopt conservative lifestyle as a loyal housewife
• No retirement allowed, people should work forever
• Leftists should not be allowed to move to red states
• British Empires Colonialism was a great thing
• The guy who assaulted Paul Pelosi should be let free
• American secularism should be abolished, no more religious freedom
• Multiple black politicians "stole white people's spots"
• MLK Jr was "an awful person"
• The Great Replacement Theory is reality
• Hydroxychloroquine cures COVID
• Guns deaths are acceptable in order to have a 2nd amendment
• Women's natural place is under their husband's control
• Parents should prevent their daughters from taking birth control
• George Floyd had it coming, the Jan 6th protestors didn't
• The 1964 Civil Rights Act was a "huge mistake"
• Madani winning in NY is a travesty because Muslims did 9/11
• Muslims only come to America to destabilize Western Civilization
• Palestine "doesn't exist" and those who support it are like the KKK
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I disagree with all of these 100%.
Did he enforce his views on anybody though?

For many years i was mainly a dweller on Era and I have to tell, i much prefer having people like Charlie calling for discussion even if they say shit like the bullet points you listed, rather than completely muting these people and living in an echo chamber with a few idols in there dictating what's right today and what should we forget from yesterday.

At the moment, on a global level we are fluctuating above and below an ideal societal set point. For decades we were under it and now it looks like we are above it, normalizing mental health issues and destabilizing our fundamental values. I feel the turning point is close once again and i fear the error will not be smaller this time as it should.
 
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stn said:
This constant 24/7 LEFT WING VERSUS RIGHT WING!!!!!!!!! shit has just made all of America insane.
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Even something as recent as the 2012 election seems insanely mild now. "Binders full of women" and Romney actually being right about Russia are about all that stand out. People didn't want to admit they supported Romney not necessarily because of his politics but because he was just cringey.

Going all the way back to 2000, Bush vs. Gore feels like a lightly contested primary between two candidates who agree on 99% of the issues compared to today's political landscape.
 
Antwix said:
I mean.... what did he expect was gonna happen
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People have done much worse. There was a prominent church that would protest at gay people's funerals with giant signs saying they're going to hell at their funeral. Over and over. They did get punched a few times but not every time. These people are not Kirk's family or anything. Just angry people brawling randos.random.

They also protest outside abortion clinics and call vulnerable people murderers. Most times they are not assaulted.
 
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It's scary seeing some people thirsty for "retaliation" and waiting for confirmation on the shooters details, some even praising for the chance to fight, feels like his death will be used as an excuse for a lot of people.
 
Boneless said:
What posts? There's one post which looks like a screenshot from a notepad with random sentences on it without sources.

You seem to be burying your head in the sand because you're scared to have to defend your own words.
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If you click on the Google link, it has all the sources for all of his quotes. I'm not bearing my head in the sand. I'm just not going to compile everything for you cause I don't need you to understand.
 
YCoCg said:
It's scary seeing some people thirsty for "retaliation" and waiting for confirmation on the shooters details, some even praising for the chance to fight, feels like his death will be used as an excuse for a lot of people.
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You feel he has a chance to reintegrate into society? GTFO
 
YCoCg said:
It's scary seeing some people thirsty for "retaliation" and waiting for confirmation on the shooters details, some even praising for the chance to fight, feels like his death will be used as an excuse for a lot of people.
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I think you might be confusing leftists burning cities so they can steal shoes with a couple of angry karens.
 
DragoonKain said:
That's how you've chosen to perceive Charlie. Neither of us knew him, so neither of us can speak in depth about what he's like as a person. You chose to go the cynical route, I've chosen to go the other way. When I was younger, I probably would have viewed him differently. But I give most people the benefit of the doubt now. I believe most people in this world are good. We wouldn't have gotten to where we did as a civilization if most people weren't. And I also know that a lot and I mean a lot of people in this world share Charlie's beliefs. So I ask myself how can those two things jive together? The answer to that question for me is no matter how much I may disagree with his takes on things, it's because I don't know him that I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt that he has these beliefs because he genuinely believes they are good for the world or believes he is doing good in the world by sharing them. And I believe overall as a society, if we have people who are trying to do good, society will thrive. Even if sometimes there are some missteps along the way.

If I saw videos of Charlie calling for deaths of people or something that appeared to me to be objectively and without a doubt malicious, I wouldn't be in the boat I'm in. But I didn't. I see a guy who has pretty common highly conservative beliefs, which many people share.
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I get where you're coming from, and i respect it "giving people the benefit of the doubt". But i don't think skepticism is cynicism, It's discernment. Which is something i choose not to abandon when it comes to questionable figures.

If i feel like someone is constantly using their platform to provoke, mislead or divide, i don't need to know them personally to assess the impact of their behavior.

Influence matters , and it isn't neutral and public figures aren't just sharing ideas, their shaping culture. If someone's beliefs consistently dehumanize others, fuels hostility, then trying to do good isn't enough.

Good intentions alone don't absolve someone from the impact of their actions or words.
 
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thefool said:
I think you might be confusing leftists burning cities so they can steal shoes with a couple of angry karens.
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Nah man, this feels different, really feels like a lot of people on either side were waiting for an excuse to kick off, seeing people post pictures of guns saying the left will pay, etc.
 
miller152 said:
He was also willing to force his underage daughter to carry a rape baby to term if such a thing ever happened. Truly dad of the year candidate, right there.

In the long run, they are probably better off.
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The typical conservative Christian view in the US is that life starts at conception. The logical result of that view is not being able to take that life of the fetus arbitrarily no matter the circumstances, just as you can't choose to throw a newborn baby down a well if it was the product of rape.

You can disagree with that stance and many do, but the view is not stemming from some callous evil toward his daughter, just the universal right to life of the baby.
 
ResilientBanana said:
If you click on the Google link, it has all the sources for all of his quotes. I'm not bearing my head in the sand. I'm just not going to compile everything for you cause I don't need you to understand.
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You state, and I quote:
the diabolical shit that Charlie has been quoted saying is pretty off the rails.


In your post, it seems like you are using this sentence to validate the fact that he was killed. So I am simply asking you to be specific about this "diabolical shit". It's really not that difficult.
 
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EviLore said:
The typical conservative Christian view in the US is that life starts at conception. The logical result of that view is not being able to take that life of the fetus arbitrarily no matter the circumstances, just as you can't choose to throw a newborn baby down a well if it was the product of rape.

You can disagree with that stance and many do, but the view is not stemming from some callous evil toward his daughter, just the universal right to life of the baby.
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A lot of the most hardcore pro life people understand rape exceptions. Most people absolutely think its far beyond callous.
 
Scary_Larry said:
This site loves to talk about echo chambers on the purple site. When, in fact this is as well. Just of a different ilk. That's what happens when you grow up with family and friends that tell you how things work in this country without second guessing and seeing for yourself.

It's lazy, but very convenient. Act like an expert, but didn't bother to pick up a book or take a political science class in college to see how divisive the ultra-conservatives and far-left are.

Most of the posts even on this topic are either ill-informed or they've chose a path to be this obtuse. It's easy to spot and it's a reason why this country is divided. Adoring and admiring any politician is a fools errand. Especially, with this administration that is the most corrupt office we've seen in history and a sitting president that's a pedophile.
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I disagree with your statement.

I have been making posts that go against the majority beliefs in here, and I have not been banned for that. Which means gaf is not an echo chamber, merely a place with more republican leaning posters.

Meanwhile, on certain purple places, posting against the majority gets you a ban. That's an echo chamber.
 
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Wimbledon said:
I get where you're coming from, and i respect it "giving people the benefit of the doubt". But i don't think skepticism is cynicism, It's discernment. Which is something i choose not to abandon when it comes questionable figures.

If i feel like someone is constantly using their platform to provoke, mislead or divide, i don't need to know them personally to assess the impact of their behavior.

Influence matters , and it isn't neutral and public figures aren't just sharing ideas, their shaping culture. If someone's beliefs consistently dehumanize others, fuels hostility, then trying to do good isn't enough.

Good intentions alone don't absolve someone from the impact of their actions or words.
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But if he was trying to divide, why would he go to college campuses to politely have conversations with people? Isn't that the opposite of division? There are a lot of people who don't do that. People who will stand up at a pulpit surrounded by like-minded individuals and just rant about how much they hate this and that. He legit tried to level with people. And even if I disagree with him on the things he was trying to level with people on, I respect he was willing to do that.

If that's not the opposite of trying to divide, then what is? I mean the guy went on Gavin Newsome's podcast, who is like a polar opposite to him politically.
 
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FoxMcChief said:
At the end of the day, he was a YouTuber. His security was mainly there to make sure no one rushed him and beat him up. Is he the first YouTuber to be shot and killed like this?
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He was more than a YouTuber. He was a political figure in the United States and founder and leader of Turning Point USA, a grassroots conservative political action group on college campusus across the United States. He is one of the main reasons why Gen Z is trending more conservative in their political views in the US.
 
Flash Junkins said:
He has a right to his view, whether we like him or not. If ya do not, ignore him, simple as that.

Taking his life does nothing but further more violence.
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I don't think anyone in this thread is justifying his murder or violence in general. But people are taking issue with the apparent "sainthood" that is being placed upon Kirk, when in reality he was a truly polarizing figure that worked in the fringes of the ideological spectrum.
 
Wimbledon said:
To me he was grifter, i think he said shit to get a reaction , i've seen the way he debates i don't think he goes into them being genuine and trying to learn from the opposing side. He isn't the only who does this , alot of people do, to rage bait or get a reaction out of people. SO i stopped watching him because i think he's manipulative/divisive. people can also hide what they really think though but everyone has room to change as well.

Morality is a big thing to me, it not just about what you do with it. It's also about what you believe and how those beliefs affect the world. If you're world view for example is to dehumanize people even silently, your laying the groundwork for harm. Your ideas are seeds, some growing into violence and others into justice. I just think pretending that speech is neutral until it explodes is dangerously naive.
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A grifter usually stays well hidden in his mom's basement, behind his camera. Sure like everybody he needed some money to support his family (and no NGO was giving him any taxpayer money) but Charlie was risking his life everyday to peacefully debate with everybody.
 
stn said:
This constant 24/7 LEFT WING VERSUS RIGHT WING!!!!!!!!! shit has just made all of America insane.
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I agree with you. I really don't want to be banned for peddling conspiracy theories but I worry that evil in high places coordinated this with the intent it would cause a few things, one thing being adding to the right vs left hate and tension. Maybe I'm wrong. I'm not firmly sold on anything. I'm worried we've reached a point where political violence will increase from here.
 
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EviLore said:
The typical conservative Christian view in the US is that life starts at conception. The logical result of that view is not being able to take that life of the fetus arbitrarily no matter the circumstances, just as you can't choose to throw a newborn baby down a well if it was the product of rape.

You can disagree with that stance and many do, but the view is not stemming from some callous evil toward his daughter, just the universal right to life of the baby.
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I know, and it is dumb af. These people are as stupid as flat-earthers but much worse, because they try to, and have, forced their beliefs on everybody else with statewide blanket abortion bans.

I really hope one day humanity advances enough to stop believing in some magic man living above the clouds.
 
DragoonKain said:
But if he was trying to divide, why would he go to college campuses to politely have conversations with people? Isn't that the opposite of division? There are a lot of people who don't do that. People who will stand up at a pulpit surrounded by like-minded individuals and just rant about how much they hate this and that. He legit tried to level with people. And even if I disagree with him on the things he was trying to level with people on, I respect he was willing to do that.

If that's not the opposite of trying to divide, then what is? I mean the guy went on Gavin Newsome's podcast, who is like a polar opposite to him politically.
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Yeah i disagree with a lot of this.

Just because your showing up and having a conversation doesn't automatically mean someones trying to unify or build that bridge....its a strategy. The goal to appear reasonable while pushing divisive or dehumanizing ideas its still division its just dressed in civility.

I'm not interesting in applauding someone for being polite while at the same time poisoning the well. He's not the only who did that, but to me its a grift a profitable one.
 
DreamcastSkies said:
I agree with you. I really don't want to be banned for peddling conspiracy theories but I worry that evil in high places coordinated this with the intent it would cause a few things, one thing being adding to the right vs left hate and tension.
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Hopefully the shooter is caught, and we can get some semblance of an actual motive. You could make the argument that this could have been some lone nut job that truly believed in "trans cause" and thought this was the way or a lone nut trying to stir up shit between sides. We know nothing.

Speculation and inuendo is what divides. Need cold hard facts.
 
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