We are not offended at the Devs "political opinions"we are offended at them cheering for the MURDER of a 31 year old, father of 2 young children. Do you see the difference?
Game Developers celebrating assassination of Charlie Kirk (Sucker Punch, Bungie, The Coalition etc) [Update] Sucker Punch Dev Fired
- Thread starter StreetsofBeige
- Start date
We are not offended at the Devs "political opinions"we are offended at them cheering for the MURDER of a 31 year old, father of 2 young children. Do you see the difference?
Lokaum D+
Member
if the studio does nothing about the person who made this comment i can only assume that they support this kind of message. Like i said, if it was G.Floyd, the person would already have been fired and the company would already had made a statement that they don't condone this kind of behavior.
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Draugoth
Gold Member
I openly talk about politics when it affects gaming, like the NSFW credit card fiasco, or the proliferation of political agenda in games, for stuff like this it's just best only to watch the discourse. These kinds of debates only work to spread dissension among users due political inclinations.
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Edellus
Member
What do you mean by "them"? All the 200+ or so employees?
viveks86
Member
The bold is not what happened here though. Saying something as part of your work is not the same as tweeting on the internet. One violates workplace rules and is grounds for firing. The other is actually protected by free speech. If a dev gets fired for tweeting something unrelated to work, they can sue and will probably win in court.
You as individuals can voice back at the dev or not choose to buy the game. That's well within your rights as long as it doesn't turn into harassment, doxing, stalking etc.. But the company can't do shit without legal consequences for themselves.
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Topher
Identifies as young
That's how I'm reading most of it. Cancelling preorder or just deciding not to buy the game. Personal action rather than a call for mob action.
Omnipunctual Godot
Member
If action is not taken against the employees involved I will absolutely not buy any games from this dev. That person posted under an account with Sucker Punch and their position in their bio, and several other devs liked and shared it. Sucker Punch knows about it. If they don't take action, it means they support political terrorism. In which case, fuck them, I hope they fail.
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Unknown?
Gold Member
Me either and Robby Starbuck should shed some light on this.
Zacfoldor
Member
My prediction is that most people who initially cheered this will see the error of their ways. Over the coming days CK will be humanized to them and the true impact of this awful act will be cemented in the shared consciousness. We will all, in the end, understand how cruel and evil and wrong this act was even if we don't yet. Those who have hardened their hearts will have the scales lifted from their eyes and we will all be forced to face it, the end of our innocence come round at last.
It reminds me of a poem actually. One about our conceptualized principles vs the reality we face in the world.
Bent double, like old beggars under sacks,
Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge,
Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs
And towards our distant rest began to trudge.
Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots
But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame; all blind;
Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots
Of tired, outstripped Five-Nines that dropped behind.
Gas! Gas! Quick, boys!—An ecstasy of fumbling,
Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time;
But someone still was yelling out and stumbling
And flound'ring like a man in fire or lime...
Dim, through the misty panes and thick green light,
As under a green sea, I saw him drowning.
In all my dreams, before my helpless sight,
He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning.
If in some smothering dreams you too could pace
Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
His hanging face, like a devil's sick of sin;
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,—
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori.
It reminds me of a poem actually. One about our conceptualized principles vs the reality we face in the world.
Dulce et Decorum Est
Wilfred Owen 1893 – 1918Bent double, like old beggars under sacks,
Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge,
Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs
And towards our distant rest began to trudge.
Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots
But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame; all blind;
Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots
Of tired, outstripped Five-Nines that dropped behind.
Gas! Gas! Quick, boys!—An ecstasy of fumbling,
Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time;
But someone still was yelling out and stumbling
And flound'ring like a man in fire or lime...
Dim, through the misty panes and thick green light,
As under a green sea, I saw him drowning.
In all my dreams, before my helpless sight,
He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning.
If in some smothering dreams you too could pace
Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
His hanging face, like a devil's sick of sin;
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,—
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori.
Topher
Identifies as young
He didn't say he was going to "stop gaming".
OccamsLightsaber
Regularly boosts GAF member count to cry about 'right wing gaf' - Voter #3923781
Not if the opinion is like cilantro should not be in salsa, but if the opinion is HaHa murdering innocent man I don't agree with is good!
Then Yes the company definitely should.
Celcius
°Temp. member
Well I meant "stop playing certain games you were looking forward to"
OccamsLightsaber
Regularly boosts GAF member count to cry about 'right wing gaf' - Voter #3923781
I think Charlie Kirk would disagree. Chat, can someone post some clips?
viveks86
Member
Not really. The studio is legally not allowed to take action for personal opinions
Nope. That wouldn't be legal either. Especially if they made a statement, that's a smoking gun against free speech and they will get sued to hell and back.
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SpacemanStarfighter
Neo Member
But he didn't advocate for political assassinations, that would be the actual irony. The killer could have used a blowpipe with a poisoned dart and the result would have been the same.
He wasn't killed for his 2nd amendment support, but for his supposed support for the "trans genocide" (allegedly).
In most western countries, even with strict gun laws, it's not that hard to get a hunting rifle, or a crossbow, or a competition bow. A lot of political assassinations make use of explosives, that I don't think are free sale in the US.
But even if guns were completely banned, this would have not saved him. The strictest gun laws in the world didn't prevent the Japanese prime minister to be shot dead.
So, it's objectively wrong to link his support for the 2nd amendment with his death.
Kacho
Gold Member
They are if they publicly associate themselves with the company while sharing said opinions. Companies have annual trainings on this.
Omnipunctual Godot
Member
Can you point me to the statute you are basing these opinions on? I haven't heard of any such thing.
Radical_3d
Member
Isn't this dependant on what you've signed on your contract there on the States (no idea of how the law works over there)?
Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
Its an extremely simple calculation in my book:
You associate, even indirectly, my company with your celebration/validation of political violence *irrespective of its polarity*, and you are done within the day and permanently blacklisted.
No if's, but's, or excuses.
As I wrote before, endorsement of behaviour so abhorrent and so intentionally divisive and reputationally destructive is entirely unacceptable, and way beyond the pale of free speech protection.
I'd also add its incomprehensibly stupid and irresponsible, given the potential repercussions. I mean, I'd ask a person holding such beliefs to stop for a moment and then tell me exactly how the consequences are going to play out?
Rationally if your belief is that your "enemy" must be so irredeemably subhuman and evil that it warrants such an act be perpetrated on them, how do you suspect their allies and supporters are going to react?
When Gavrilo Princip assassinated Archduke Franz Ferdinand in 1914 do you think he could have conceived that this single action would start a chain reaction that ignited 2 World Wars? Millions upon millions of all races, creeds, and colours killed, maimed and displaced? The rise and fall of empires and regimes, 50 plus years of the world living in fear of thermo-nuclear annihilation as a result of the fragile balance of geopolitical power failing...?
If you don't recognize the calamitous potential of political violence you are the worst sort of fool. The dangerous type.
You associate, even indirectly, my company with your celebration/validation of political violence *irrespective of its polarity*, and you are done within the day and permanently blacklisted.
No if's, but's, or excuses.
As I wrote before, endorsement of behaviour so abhorrent and so intentionally divisive and reputationally destructive is entirely unacceptable, and way beyond the pale of free speech protection.
I'd also add its incomprehensibly stupid and irresponsible, given the potential repercussions. I mean, I'd ask a person holding such beliefs to stop for a moment and then tell me exactly how the consequences are going to play out?
Rationally if your belief is that your "enemy" must be so irredeemably subhuman and evil that it warrants such an act be perpetrated on them, how do you suspect their allies and supporters are going to react?
When Gavrilo Princip assassinated Archduke Franz Ferdinand in 1914 do you think he could have conceived that this single action would start a chain reaction that ignited 2 World Wars? Millions upon millions of all races, creeds, and colours killed, maimed and displaced? The rise and fall of empires and regimes, 50 plus years of the world living in fear of thermo-nuclear annihilation as a result of the fragile balance of geopolitical power failing...?
If you don't recognize the calamitous potential of political violence you are the worst sort of fool. The dangerous type.
SpacemanStarfighter
Neo Member
While if the killer used a knife you would be mourning now?
That's not how free speech works. The right to free speech is about the government restricting speech, it has nothing to do with a private employer. Think people being arrested in the UK for wrong think posted online.
Free speech also =/= free from consequence.
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JORMBO
Darkness no more
If I am wearing my companies badge and going around saying really bad things then my company can fire me. These people all have their employer information right above their posts. We've seen plenty of people get fired for stuff like this.
Topher
Identifies as young
Freedom of speech does not extend to a guarantee of employment regardless of what you say.
ChorizoPicozo
Member
that movement just got nuked
calico
Member
Partly maybe? There was some confusion / conflation between people deciding to no longer support the game and the game being cancelled as in 'not released'. I don't think anyone was arguing it should not be released.
Radical_3d
Member
I don't know. That actress from The Mandalorian won her lawsuit, although what she posted was nowhere near a murder apology. So I'm confused of how things work over there.
viveks86
Member
For California it is labor code 1101 and 1102 as this would come under political speech.
Gp1
Member
Yes, as long as this person associates itself with the company on a social network. She's basically representing the company.
People need to understand that before talking shit publicly.
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
With so many volatile techie/creative/gaming employees that are so political on social media, I wonder if they are given mandatory code of conduct kinds of courses I got to do at each big company I've worked at. HR dishes out online stuff you got to sit there and read and do a quick test at the end. Every 3-6 months there's slew to do and you have to complete it. And you even get reminder emails you got to finish them by xxx date. And it's formally tracked because if you dont do it, the VP of the Dept finds out with an automated email who didnt do it. HR and bosses always remind people to not go on Twitter and say dumb shit as someone can link it back to the company. In this case, the person didn't bring up company content, but because her profile is public and chock full of work info, it still applies in a way.
For you tech/gaming workers, do your companies issue out code of conduct policies and training courses, and are told not to do dumb shit online as it can haunt the company? Or they dont, and they dont really care what you do on social media?
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Topher
Identifies as young
She didn't win. It was settled. That's a case where negative PR was more damaging than whatever the settlement came out to be, but she had Elon Musk money backing her up so Disney caved. Without Elon Musk, doubtful it would have gone anywhere.
But if a typical joe like me spouts off on social media saying some stuff my employer doesn't like, yeah.....they can fire me instantly.
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Varteras
Member
Shit, I've worked at factories that told us to watch our online presence when employed by them.
Omnipunctual Godot
Member
Yep. The terrorist used a 30-06 bolt action rifle, which is commonly used for hunting. Ultimately, if someone wants to do something, they're going to do it. I used to think there was safety in the idea that most people are reasonable and wouldn't risk their lives or freedom in these kinds of attacks, but the droves of support that this cowardly act has received has me reevaluating that idea completely. It's not just the lone psycho shooter you need to worry about. It's the tens of thousands of like-minded individuals cheering him on.
viveks86
Member
Termination in the US is always "at-will" with exceptions for "protected classes" to prevent discriminations. Protection against termination for personal opinions, especially related to politics is state law. Charlie Kirk is a political figure. So speech around him will be considered political in nature. Some states have protections and others don't. I just know a little about California state law. This will vary from state to state and can get messy.
The Mad Draklor
Member
Just as a very recent example, MSNBC fired Matthew Dowd for blaming Charlie Kirk for his assassination.
This description doesn't fit Ghost of Yotei
viveks86
Member
I don't mean free speech as the federal right. I meant labor protections against having political opinions. I was using "free speech" loosely, as the ability to freely express an opinion in personal capacity.
SpacemanStarfighter
Neo Member
I have no problems "boycotting" (but it's actually just not buying slop) the whole Western gaming industry, in fact, that's exactly what I'm doing.
I can't even remember what was the last Western game I bought. I checked, it was Robocop.
I have more Asian and Eastern European games at my disposal than time to play them. Plus my long backlog.
viveks86
Member
Depending on the state you are in, you can do it for other topics. In general, companies are not required to respect the 1st amendment.
But political topics are protected in California at least. What badge you are wearing is not relevant. The laws do vary from state to state on this.
Magic Carpet
Gold Member
I just quickly glaced through this. Found this interesting.
This seems like it could be used TO fire someone.
Voter Influence, Intimidation, and Coercion
The California Election Code prohibits anyone from using or threatening to use force, violence, coercion, or intimidation to influence another person's voting decisions. This includes trying to make someone vote or not vote in an election or vote for or against a particular person or measure as well as retaliating against someone because of how they voted or did not vote in a previous election.22 Under California law, violations are a felony punishable by up to three years of imprisonment.
Furthermore, California's Ralph Civil Rights Act states that all people in California have the right to be free from any violence, or intimidation by threat of violence, committed against their persons or property based on political affiliation among other protected characteristics.23 The California Civil Rights Department enforces the Ralph Civil Rights Act and has issued guidance explaining that the Act makes it illegal to "[a]dvocate violence against a person due to their actual or perceived protected characteristic, including political affiliation."24 California law also provides for the pursuit of a claim under the Bane Civil Rights Act, which forbids anyone from interfering by violence or threat of violence with a person's state or federal constitutional or statutory rights, including the right to vote or freedom of speech.25
Topher
Identifies as young
That's interesting stuff, but that is freedom to engage in political activities. That doesn't protect speech in any and all situations. I don't think celebrating a person's death would be protected by those statutes.
Bitmap Frogs
Mr. Community
Not Montana tho. In Montana you must have a demonstrably rmotive to fire someone.
Kacho
Gold Member
DC Comics terminated an employee and cancelled the comic. The company is in California.
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Topher
Identifies as young
Wow.....I didn't realize that happened. A bit shocked considering it is MSNBC
John Bilbo
Member
viveks86
Member
From what I'm learning, New York has no labor protections for political speech. And Matthew Dowd is doing that in professional capacity, which is easily defensible grounds for firing.