Unknown Soldier
Member
You forgot Cuba, but I guarantee you that Marco Rubio didn't
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Air Strikes in Caracas
- Thread starter Meicyn
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Varteras
Member
I'm gonna start taking bets on how many more hats that dude can wear. But I'm petty sure "Overseer of Cuban Reforms" is one he'd wear with pride.
Unknown Soldier
Member
He and the rest of the Cuban-American exile community have dreamed of that their entire lives. They have also been forced to wait for decades while their families back home on the island have suffered all these years for liberation of their people just like the Venezuelans
Speaking of which
It's too bad none of the liberals on the Internet, or even the ones in this thread, will read this post. It's an actual wake up call for them
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Signalis
Member
How far are you from calling people Nazi's?
HoodWinked
Member
great grammar there idiot.
"the drunk" is an Ivy league grad and has a masters from Harvard, served in the military, does a ton of advocacy for veterans. if anything he's over qualified.
Unknown Soldier
Member
Meanwhile in Latin America, there are some interesting lines being drawn between leaders and nations that either want to keep supporting Maduro or not
Petro of Colombia obviously is allies with Maduro, if the previous Twitter post I linked is true and Venezuela was using Colombia as a transport hub for undocumented rare earths to send to China then that only adds to the fact that Colombia was also using Venezuela as a transport hub to send cocaine to the US. There's no specific reason to let Petro remain in control of Colombia, but he's also only going to be their President another 6 months so it might not be worth bothering to depose him now. We can just arrest him in 6 months after he steps down (Presidents of Colombia are limited to 1 term only, his term ends this year)
Lula is a nutjob and a criminal who spent time imprisoned before being elected President of Brazil again. In general, Brazil is a basket case of a nation. Lula is not our problem though, he has never done anything to us and we have no particular reason to intervene in Brazil
Sheinbaum is a curious case. She is obviously little more than a figurehead and the cartels run Mexico. In many ways, Mexico is not just a narco-state but also a failed state. She is obviously quite terrified of the cartels and knows she could be assassinated at any moment by one of them. So it's not clear exactly how much she wants to be supporting Maduro and how much she is just trying to stay alive down there in Mexico City. But that's how it is, for her and her nation. There seems to be little or no benefit to doing anything to depose Sheinbaum, she has no power and replacing her doesn't make the cartels vanish. Mexico has long been a serious problem for the US and short of invading and occupying our southern neighbor, something we really really really don't want to even pretend to consider, it's hard to imagine a real workable solution. Meanwhile the drugs just keep flowing north
10 other nations in CELAC were like uhm no led by none other than Javier Milei and here we are. Milei is awesome and don't believe anything our media says, he is popular in Argentina for having actually tamed their legendary hyperinflation and stabilized the economy there
Varteras
Member
My timeline has been loaded with posts like this. Venezuelans, Cubans, and sooo many other Latin Americans in general more or less telling Leftists to go fuck themselves. Videos of Latin Americans confronting pro-Maduro protesters in various countries. Nearly all of whom are clearly not Venezuelan themselves and none of them having good reasons, if any, for being there.
People from other countries asking semi-seriously for the US to take out their leaders as well. Mexico, Cuba, the UK, Australia, and, fuck, even France. Leftists are just exposing themselves for being the morally bankrupt, historically vacuous, and geopolitically inept nitwits that they are. Being so confidently wrong and hypocritical in their screeching over what just happened.
Hero of Spielberg
Member
Australia? Jesus wept. No one in their right mind wants the Prime Minister taken out.
Edit: Removed some political commentary.
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Varteras
Member
Hey man, I'm just telling you what I saw. Was it a mass of Australians? No. It was one dude. But I was surprised to see it.
Icymanipulator
Member
This entire operation is the definition of based.
Came in the middle of the night and took another countries leader. That is badass. American military is the best.
The icing on the cake is the people of Venezuela celebrating while the Left got hard exposed for paid protests as within hours they sprang up in cities with the exact same signs and messaging. There is absolutely zero chance these protests are organic.
I just can't imagine anyone on the left not feeling like a complete moron right now.
"No kings" is now "free the dictator"
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Came in the middle of the night and took another countries leader. That is badass. American military is the best.
The icing on the cake is the people of Venezuela celebrating while the Left got hard exposed for paid protests as within hours they sprang up in cities with the exact same signs and messaging. There is absolutely zero chance these protests are organic.
I just can't imagine anyone on the left not feeling like a complete moron right now.
"No kings" is now "free the dictator"
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Hero of Spielberg
Member
Taking the views of a single nut job to suggest some worldwide movement is a tad disingenuous.
Varteras
Member
I'm telling you what I saw on my timeline. A lot of videos and posts like that from various countries. Some way more than others. Some surprised me. Especially the French ones I saw. I didn't describe it as some great global movement. Get a grip.
I'm skeptical of much good coming from this. Military interventions like this often feel gratifying in the moment, but the promised returns rarely materialize. There's an enormous distance between Maduro being removed from power, and Venezuela becoming a compliant American tributary state.
What is more certain though, is that America is now pot-committed to seeing that desired outcome come to fruition, so we're about to spend loads of political capital and time trying to remake Venezuela. I'm not looking forward to that, because six months ago few in America cared about Venezuela, and I'd rather it have stayed that way. Of all the things that we could be putting our effort behind, I don't think what's happening in Venezuela (for good or ill) is all that impactful to Americans.
What is more certain though, is that America is now pot-committed to seeing that desired outcome come to fruition, so we're about to spend loads of political capital and time trying to remake Venezuela. I'm not looking forward to that, because six months ago few in America cared about Venezuela, and I'd rather it have stayed that way. Of all the things that we could be putting our effort behind, I don't think what's happening in Venezuela (for good or ill) is all that impactful to Americans.
Madserb2023
Member
The rules based order is complete nonsense. All it does is protect dictators. The irony is that even though it was set up as a responses to WW2, it precisely allows somebody like Hitler to exist. You can have a dictator like Pol Pot and massacre your own people and people would say, too bad, can't do anything about it because of the rules based order. By definition, it therefore facilitates it etc. Hitler could easily exist in the world today, and people would be arguing that taking him out would be against the rules. North Korea exists because of the rules based order, so does Eitrea, Yemen, Sudan, Myanmar etc. These places are so barbaric because they feel that they are protected under international law.
Varteras
Member
Exactly. This is the same thing I said earlier. The whole "international law/order/norms" concept is just a way to make countries that can't actually enforce their will on others feel like they can. It's an illusion that melts away the moment a big power decides it doesn't care. It's a fake magic wand given to countries who think feelings are force and outrage is deterrence. Without the power and the will, it's just a moral language masquerading as a martial one.
Paasei
Member
You shouldn't bring a gun to a heli fight.
ChuckeRearmed
Member
Because they were not going to establish a new person or a government there. But it will be run by USA - by proxy.
Unknown Soldier
Member
Real marketing starts with seeing an opportunity and seizing it
Journeywalker
Banned
Although Idealpolitik provides an illusion of moral actors, ripping the mask off and going full Realpolitik doesn't help anyone either. I'm not sure what the end game is. Do we basically go back to the framework that created two world wars because it's more "authentic?"
ElFenomeno
Member
Does it matter really? They are under US's boot, if the US doesn't like where is at, they will just change the regime again.
People here are very naive saying "well, there are differences between Venezuela and Taiwan , Taiwan is a democracy, bla bla."
Do you think it matters at all? If Venezuela was a democracy, it would still receive mandatory regime change. No doubt about it as the US's interest are resources. They will always find an excuse.
Heck , look at US, threatening *gasp* democracies - Greenland and Canada. So much so, their PMs are putting out official statements.
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We didn't rip a mask off.
The US doesn't need Venezuela's oil. Our interest is not in turning around and being the next agent to exploit the country in Maduro's place while everyone continues to suffer. Our primary interest is in stabilizing Venezuela and changing its orientation away from the authoritarian axis. Part of that involves resuming a business partnership. This will be mutually beneficial for Venezuelans and the US.
Authoritarian governments typically exist in states with oil because they don't need to build successful pluralistic educated societies when they can extract wealth directly from the ground and pocket it at the top. On the contrary, an oppressed and dysfunctional society is easier for a dictator to manage. The oil wealth is then used to buy influence to prop up corruption across the world. Cutting off authoritarian regimes from pocketing that wealth benefits everyone.
calico
Member
It's not at Iraq 2.0, at least not yet. This is an approach straight out of the British Empire's playbook: park your untouchable navy off the coast like Zeus on Mount Olympus, and use your lightning bolts to dictate who the local leader is.
How viable this is in the short term will depend on what the US is looking to achieve here, but it avoids a lot of the problems of going in and trying to enforce your governance at a micro level. If the US doesn't really give a shit about the micro level (ie. day to day life for the local populace), then it will work fine.
How viable this is in the long term will depend on whether the US can maintain a consistent approach for more than a few years. This may not be impossible -as I suspect President Trump has the blessing of the Deep State and Uniparty for his military actions more than we have been led to believe- but fickleness in foreign policy has often been an Achilles heel for the US.
How viable this is in the short term will depend on what the US is looking to achieve here, but it avoids a lot of the problems of going in and trying to enforce your governance at a micro level. If the US doesn't really give a shit about the micro level (ie. day to day life for the local populace), then it will work fine.
How viable this is in the long term will depend on whether the US can maintain a consistent approach for more than a few years. This may not be impossible -as I suspect President Trump has the blessing of the Deep State and Uniparty for his military actions more than we have been led to believe- but fickleness in foreign policy has often been an Achilles heel for the US.
ChuckeRearmed
Member
So you are saying wars did not happen in the last 80 years? Certain countries in europe stopped fighting each other but wars continued to happen.
Hero of Spielberg
Member
I think the problem here is that this is what many people are hoping this move will achieve.
coinhook
Neo Member
unless it is foreign intervention
coinhook
Neo Member
Under Chavez Venezuela was pretty stable too with standards of living and education rising significantly prior to his election. Despite that he was unwelcome by the USA
Unknown Soldier
Member
Founder of Oculus and Anduril BTW
Yes, that Anduril - the "Flame of the West"
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ChuckeRearmed
Member
It was stable because he had just nationalized new oil refineries and other stuff. Easy to be stable when you took someone's else. But just like usual as taking does not mean being able to run it, it fell apart in a couple of years.
It is like occupying a new apartment and not being able to fix anything when it began to crumble.
On other note
DirtInUrEye
Banned
It won't happen.
MisterFalcon
Member
Like how Russia uses it, fascist is now 'everyone I don't like' for the Trump fans as well.
When were the last elections in Saudi Arabia?
When were the last elections in Saudi Arabia?
Gp1
Member
Fixed for ya.
The same can be said to almost every single government in the region.
Lula (specially on his second term), Dilma, Kirchners, the old grandma from Chile, the poor guy from Uruguay, the cocalero face one from Bolivia...
StueyDuck
Member
Varteras
Member
To add on here, "idealpolitik" as you call it has been an abject failure. That's the real mask that falls off time and again. No one has to rip it off when it constantly falls off on its own and we keep pretending it works.
As I said before, it did nothing to stop the US from invading Iraq. It did nothing to stop Russia from invading Ukraine twice and still hasn't dislodged it. It had 27 years to create change in Venezuela's course and didn't. It has had many decades to do it for North Korea and hasn't. It has stayed paralyzed over the genocide in Sudan. It will do nothing if China attacks Taiwan. Clearly, because it has also failed repeatedly to recognize Taiwan as a sovereign nation.
That whole fluffy concept of "international order" is underwritten by the US. So it only matters if the US decides to enforce it as the only power on Earth able to force-project across the globe. And in more ways than one.
"Idealpolitik" hasn't stopped wars. It hasn't stopped terrorism. It hasn't stopped exploitation. It hasn't stopped narco-trafficking. It hasn't prevented an axis of authoritarian regimes. Again, its only real use has been to make countries that stopped being truly relevant to global change a long time ago still feel like they matter. It isn't a bunch of equal partners keeping the world spinning. It's one nation doing the heavy lifting while a bunch of others rush in to smile for the trophy photo-op at the end like they helped. All while whining about how the trophy was won.
"Might makes right" is the brutal reality that many people stick their heads in the sand over to pretend it isn't there. It is. It's always been. Always will be. Because when someone stops caring about your words, you had better hope you have the weapons to make them listen again. Because Russia isn't listening. China isn't listening. Iran isn't listening. North Korea isn't listening. Cuba isn't listening. Venezuela wasn't listening. And at this particular point, the US isn't listening either.
Whose going to make it? Not the countries that keep harping about "norms" and acting like a carefully worded speech is all we need to make the world right again. And thank god for that because if the US believed in that bullshit Iran would have nuclear weapons already and Venezuela would still be under the thumb of a nasty dictator helping other authoritarian regimes further their goals.
I want to be clear that this is not to say that any other countries are losers who deserve to be under a boot in the mud and should be used like pawns. But when they lack the tools they need to enforce their will, they don't get to.
You think "Realpolitik" is something we should avoid. That's the problem. It's always been the reality. It's truthfully unavoidable. People have just spent a lifetime being made to believe that wasn't true and that the world was protected by magic words instead of innovations, economics, and aircraft carriers.
StueyDuck
Member
All i'm saying is...
EA, if you wanna bring back Medal of Honor... I've got an idea for you.
winjer
Member
The USA is self sufficient in Oil and Gas. But controlling Venezuela's oil production, even if indirectly, would be mean enormous political and economic power over the world.
It would give the USA the power to have an impressive control of the output of oil in the world. Something that OPEC has used several times, for their political agendas, such as the crisis of 1974, that was politically driven to punish the west for supporting Israel.
If the USA were to control Venezuela's oil, they could affect oil prices whenever they wanted. For example, countries like Russia and Iran are heavily dependent on their oil exports to finance the invasion in Ukraine and the nuclear weapons program, respectively.
And something similar has already happened. When Russia invaded Afghanistan in the 80s, they were relying on oil exports to fund the war. When oil prices collapsed, Russia was unable to keep it's economy going and resulted in the collapse of the USSR.
Now consider that currently, the main buyer of Venezuelan oil is China. The USA just cut their supply. And although China has more countries from which it can buy oil, they are going to feel the sting.
And in the future, the USA could use Venezuela to pressure China.
winjer
Member
Chinese propaganda once again never fails…
…to make us look like badasses.
Don't ask what happened to the Chinese troops in July 2016, in South Sudan.
And especially, don't ask what happened to the people they were supposed to protect.
Slayer-33
Liverpool-2
Well I did read all of it (I still consider myself Dem, but pro gun, pro choice, I approve of Mandami etc, give him a chance..)
lol I'm actually subbed to his channel, and I don't disagree one bit with what happened. He's right. Glad to see Maduro gone, totally illegitimate.. Venezuela deserves all the good things that'll hopefully come out of this.
Varteras
Member
Chinese propaganda once again never fails…
…to make us look like badasses.
Lol I don't even know how they thought this was a burn.
"Yeah, Delta Force just pulled off one of the greatest special ops in history. But did you know that 33 years ago they had one death for every 125 dead Somali's? Git gud"
coinhook
Neo Member
you have to consider the state of the country in 1998:
60% of population lived in poverty (42 % below poverty lines, 17% under extreme poverty), 30 % unemployment, 70 % without elementary medical care, 3 % of population owned 70% of land and 40% were illiterate.
After 14 years, unemployment was down to 6 %, there was free healthcare for all, no illiteracy and more than 50000 farmers co-operatives were established where they were handed the land of the above 3 %.
So if that 3% lead to the rest living in poverty then it was mandatory
Angry_Megalodon
Member
Liberals want you to believe that the world has not been at war for the last 20 years. Many genuinely believe it. Reality is that even countries that "perceive themselves at peace" have been at war for long. Nuclear weapons make hot war nearly impossible, so superpowers just play the sly game. The arab world is taking over Europe, the marxist axis has occupied Africa for resources, online sabotages in the West, the use of mass migration and fake NGOs to cause social unrest, etc. Thats war. Funding movements like Antifa is more damaging than carpet bombing a city, since its effects last longer and reach more people.
People have to come to terms with the idea that we can be at war with the same nations we make commercial deals with. Not that I like it, but that's the way it is.
DrFigs
Member
This is the same brain dead goofy justification for other regime change operations. No one who thought the war in Iraq was a bad idea in the U.S. thought Saddam Hussein was a good leader. It's just a lazy strawman.
Topher
Identifies as young
What does foreign intervention have to do with Venezuelans finally being able to think for themselves?
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