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[Instant_Classic]

Before I begin, know that the Dreamcast is one of my favorite consoles ever, is legendary, and in many was state of the art when it released in 1998/1999.

There are two main reasons why the console would have ended up underperforming, despite it's strong start.

1) Lack of a second analog stick, leading to games simply just skipping the console or not working on it.

Consoles starting in the sixth gen were utilzing the right analog stick for camera and aiming controls (Halo Combat Evolved laid the blueprint in 2001 for FPS controls on consoles), among other mechanics as well.

2) GD-ROMs (Dreamcast's disc format) were limited in storage capacity, holding around a max of 1 GB.

This meant most games, especially RPGs or Open-World games would have been multiple discs on the Dreamcast, compared to its competitors.

Sega lacked the foresight to know where gaming was heading, and for whatever reason thought low storage (needed to be DVD) and one analog stick was sufficient.

I will admit, Sega did know online gaming was the future and the Dreamcast was indeed prepped for that, however.

This would have been a costly mistake, even without the PS2 dominating the gen sales wise.

PS2 ended with 160 million+ sales.

 

[Alexios]

Taking out PS2 you get folks who waited for Emotion Engine sight unseen, take out Xbox which came in thanks to SEGA bailing (maybe never get Halo?) and just get GameCube competition, which relied even less on the 2nd stick/extra buttons and came later with less than 500MB bigger discs

Anyway, many (most?) PS2 era top tier classics barely did anything with the right stick! From MGS to GTA, Final Fantasies, Yakuzas, Devil May Cries, Resident Evils, Ace Combats, WipEouts, Metroid Primes, these all hold up, folks remember them and the Dreamcast would have been fine with such games/genres/styles and successors to its own and Saturn's RPG, fighting, racing, sports & arcade games. Maken X controls much like Metroid Prime. Even when you need more buttons, you still have the d-pad directions as it used to be an alternative to analog control or do nothing while now it's commonly used as additional inputs so it could have been used for things like items, menus, actions in MGS and other games where people say you totally need extra shoulder buttons, on top of other clever still decently intuitive stuff like hold L then tap R to toggle stuff one way, hold R then tap L for the reverse, etc. If folks wanted Halo-like stuff they'd have the choice of an eventual twin stick controller (PS had zero trouble making it its new default with few great dual - or single - analog games) or DC's mouse & keyboard, though PS2 handily trashed the Xbox with little of the sort too.

I'm partial to the GoldenEye/Perfect Dark single stick defaults, with the right gameplay it's weighty and physical like controlling an action game in FPV, auto aiming what's roughly ahead Doom style (or locking on like Prime) and precision aiming RE4 style. I enjoyed this option in later FPS like TimeSplitters. Games like MDK2 were ace with buttons as move, stick look/aim, L jump/glide/jetpack, R shoot and d-pad to switch & use weapons/items/scopes/gadgets. 26+ years later it's the reverse of what you're used to (so first trying it out in your middle age means nothing), but it worked

Sony's own PSP is proof with its PS2 style games (if less than ideal, as dual analog is lesser to mkb in FPS), Monster Hunter, God of War, Kingdom Hearts, MGS, GTA, Final Fantasy, Syphon Filter, SOCOM, Daxter, Resistance, Tomb Raider, Medal of Honor, racing, (S/J/A)RPG, fighting, sports, everything!​

Yes, I know about the claw grip (which actually originated on the PS2 Monster Hunter as they had the brilliant idea to map attacks to the right stick rather than the face buttons so the camera controls were used much like on PSP instead, lol, but anyway that's besides the point) and that was way over the top and unnecessary for most actually sane folks. I played Monster Hunter a TON on that system and just momentarily tapping a direction for my character to face that and then tapping the camera button to recenter it (also moving my thumb from the stick to the d-pad while locked in animations) before resuming (it takes a split second) was more than enough and became second nature, in the heat of battle or not. Later games soon made it so the recenter button faced the boss monster (and in PSO there was an automatic boss camera etc.) so, again, it's all about design

Edit: I forgot about 3DS having the same controls (its FPS tended to use the touch screen for aiming, possibly to their detriment sacrificing other inputs, but other games didn't). So the DC died in 2001 but its controls survived in Sony to 2011 and Nintendo to 2017 proving it wasn't the issue. Of course I don't claim the stick didn't have many great uses, just that it wasn't go twin or go bust just yet considering you still have many of the greatest games of that whole generation doing little with it, so plenty others that did more could have been tweaked to be like them without it being weird!

Idk about the space, it seems enough for epic RPGs like Skies of Arcadia, maybe they'd focus less on FMV doing stuff real time like that instead if they wanted to be on DC, even Grandia II has some of the in-engine stuff on Dreamcast done in (meh) FMV on PS2, the GTA III port has fit on a CD-R, Vice City would fit on a GD-Rom etc. I didn't think changing discs was a big deal, it was done a lot on PS, PCs had tons of install CDs and it wasn't overdone on Dreamcast and could have probably been trimmed with less duplicate files (it helped loading) etc., the max was like 4 discs for rare games like D2/Shenmue 2 (the first Shenmue's Disc 4 is for extras, they didn't care about additional discs, it wasn't costly like cartridges). Voice acting and FMV was mostly for the highest end games, your average JRPG didn't have as much as Square's so Persona or Tales of etc. would probably be on 2

I'd have enjoyed it if it lived on but got different types of games because of these rather than be like current gen where every system gets the same stuff in slightly different performance/resolution. Like FFVII started way different on N64 and turned to something else to utilize PS discs. Of course I'm not defending their decision to not take the Saturn 3D Control Pad which was better if they were gonna go with this design. Maybe they were taking this approach trying to simplify things to attract non gamers like Nintendo with Wii for example, it could have worked, but apparently it didn't.

It's not like DC died over a lack of games, it got tons and fast, so, had it lived on, even with mainly SEGA support with successors to its varied catalogue (far from just arcade ports, folks claim this for both Saturn and DC but they even made RPGs - solo and online - sports, strategy and other games, they're just one company but it's just not true that they relied too much on arcade ports just because they also brought those, if anything even more were needed) tuned to its hardware and whatever third parties could fit their games without too many discs, that would still be a meaty library ​

​

Games not using the 2nd stick in the sixth gen much, is comically false.

By 2003, and that is stretching it, easily 90% of games were using it for aiming, camera rotation, or something else.

Anyone that believes the use of the second joystick is some kind of PS360 concept, literally knows little to nothing about games.

Or at least, never played games in that generation.

Straw man arguments and ad hominems in bad faith. The point was many PS2/GC classics didn't do much with a 2nd stick (I name dropped some, there are tons more), many that did (as you say for looking around - in some of them in a more limited capacity than others even - nice to have if it's available but hardly an essential function rendering JRPG and other games unplayable without) could easily be tweaked to be like those that didn't (often their own lauded PS2 prequels & PSP entries or in the case of GameCube games they'd play more like their N64/3DS counterparts, like you have the camera control in Twilight Princess but it'd be 99% as great without, just like Ocarina of Time which was equally great if not a better game, the same goes for many that didn't have such entries) and PS2 trashed Xbox (barely over GC sales) without caring for Halo-likes as much as you ​

Are we really going to act as if using the second joystick wasn't used for aiming or camera rotation, wasn't standard by 2003 - 2004?

Keep going later in time. PS3 launched less than 7 years after 2's massive success (nobody said anyone could repeat). Had PS2 not been a thing, or SEGA survived 6 years into 2004, we'd be ripe for next gen with new gamepads (refusing the reality they'd have had dual stick way earlier like PS got). It seems you're not even considering your premise where PS2 never happened and looking at things with a 2026 lens, so you can't even fathom playing Final Fantasy without freelook or Resident Evil without FPS controls, yet back then it was perfectly normal even if both had been done before ​

 

[FoxMcChief]

The lack of EA Sports was always going to kill my favorite console.

 

[nkarafo]

I agree about the second analog stick. The Dreamcast pad wasn't going to be able to keep up with more modern games but i guess they could fix that by releasing a dual analog version with a few extra buttons later on.

I also agree the GD ROM was a factor but not because of limited storage reasons, like you mentioned they could just release games in multi-discs. It's just that it wasn't a DVD like the upcoming PS2 had. The PS2 being a next-gen console and a cheap DVD player in the same package was a massive deal.

I already mentioned this in another thread but i would add the Dreamcast was released too early, during the peak of PS1/N64. PS1 users were busy with games like RE2 and the upcoming Metal Gear Solid while N64 users could finally play Ocarina of Time, a massive game they waited for 3 full years. It was a mistake releasing the console during that time. In addition, being released too early meant the early games such as Sonic Adventure were rushed (too much jank left) and it was also flooded with too many 5th gen ports in the west.

utilzing the right analog stick for camera and aiming controls (Halo Combat Evolved laid the blueprint in 2001 for FPS controls on consoles

I'm not going to mention Goldeneye because it's way of doing dual analog controls was maybe too niche and clunky but i will say Alien Resurrection on PS1 did those controls before Halo did. Halo simply make those controls the standard because of how much of a success it was.

 

[epicurius-seven]

I think it was doomed to falter and fail regardless of design and technical merit.

Sega had already burned a lot of goodwill with all the silly console variants of the 16/32 era and failed to capture any Western mindshare with the Saturn.

They had to absolutely knock it out of the park with DC. It had good games, but no 'everyone wants this' games.

The first year of a console is almost always seriously lacking in wide appeal killer apps. They just didn't have the cash to survive that initial build up.

 

[Neff]

Sega had already burned a lot of goodwill with all the silly console variants of the 16/32 era and failed to capture any Western mindshare with the Saturn.

The realest answer. Also, I'd add that much of the Dreamcast's library consisted of ports of arcade games, with percieved short-term replay value. It was devastatingly light on adventure-style games you could sink your teeth into, the kind of experiences PS2 would be swamped with from day one.

 

[SkylineRKR]

Yep it would always fail. But for the most part because their games didn't sell. Without PS2 there would still be Nintendo and probably Microsoft. And another more wealthy competitor trying.

in hindsight the controller was a definite issue, with having less buttons than competitors. Sans VMU its probably one of the worst controllers I ever had. But that could've been circumvented with a revision. Even the Nights pad was superior.

Storage could also be circumvented probably, much like Nintendo got away with its mini-DVD which was about the same as GD-Rom. Not always ideal, but not a dealbreaker.

However one problem with 1998 was how fast the 3D technology moved. It was a period of transition. And many companies would surface, and fall. Which is also why Sega was in this 3DFX debacle, and they did look like the most promising with their VooDoo technology. But then you had Diamond, Nvidia, ATi etc with technology moving forward like every month. For storage this time was just before DVD became widespread consumer tech as well.

 

[Radical_3d]

Before I begin, know that the Dreamcast is one of my favorite consoles ever, is legendary, and in many was state of the art when it released in 1998/1999.

There are two main reasons why the console would have ended up underperforming, despite it's strong start.

1) Lack of a second analog stick, leading to games simply just skipping the console or not working on it.

Consoles starting in the sixth gen were utilzing the right analog stick for camera and aiming controls (Halo Combat Evolved laid the blueprint in 2001 for FPS controls on consoles), among other mechanics as well.

2) GD-ROMs (Dreamcast's disc format) were limited in storage capacity, holding around a max of 1 GB.

This meant most games, especially RPGs or Open-World games would have been multiple discs on the Dreamcast, compared to its competitors.

Sega lacked the foresight to know where gaming was heading, and for whatever reason thought low storage (needed to be DVD) and one analog stick was sufficient.

I will admit, Sega did know online gaming was the future and the Dreamcast was indeed prepped for that, however.

This would have been a costly mistake, even without the PS2 dominating the gen sales wise.

PS2 ended with 160 million+ sales.

You are forgetting the main reason: anyone that has owned a sega console but the most hardcore sega fans were completely burn out with the company. That's why nobody gave them another opportunity. Funnily enough that is a lesson that companies to this day haven't learn.

 

[Randall365]

The Mega CD, 32X and Saturn killed the Dreamcast. Having no EA games was a shocker too, when people had started buying the yearly Fifa/Madden. The controller had a tamogotchi in it and looked like a mess in shop demos when they took it out - how could they go with a worse design PS1 and N64?

It was DOA.

I get the nostalgia for it on here - I had an Amiga CD32 and loved that thing - but it was a terrible idea and put the final nail in the coffin for Sega hardware.

 

[Gamer79]

I still remember standing in line to get my dreamcast on 9/9/1999. It was a midnight launch so ended up watching the Sixth sense in the theater and then stood in line for 45 mins. Watched 2 major dorks have a 25 min argument over Dragonball Z. Picked up Sonic Adventure, Ready 2 Rumble, and NFL2k football (wanted crazy taxi but was delayed). Got home about 2 am and hooked it up to my (at the time decent size) 27 inch tube tv. Going from n64 to this was a HUGE LEAP. The next couple of years with the Dreamcast was by far some of the best gaming period. My first online games with Chu Chu Rocket and NFL2k and the built in internet browser was nice. Such a fun time in gaming.

 

[Trunx81]

Piracy killed the beast.

I remember seeing the first screenshots of Virtua Fighter for the Dreamcast. Coming from Mist64, this was a game-changer. But then I got the GameCube anyway, because Star Wars. Sorry, Sega.

 

[SkylineRKR]

Piracy did nothing.

Piracy was publicly available in summer 2000 or so. Their software sales were already laughable by then with second wave (or third, since Japan was a year before) dropping off massively. They couldn't promote software if their lives depended on it. They went with the most weird ad campaigns and promoted the most odd titles like Seaman. Sega basically had no clue.

The one thing they did was advertising the console as a cheap and online next-gen system. This worked at the 199 entry price. Plus, with the console already out in Japan for about a year meant they had ample software ready. But I felt there was a never a plan B. Just move as much as possible and burn all funds at launch week and hope for the best. Playstation Vita was kind of launched in the same way.

 

[cireza]

Without the PS2 the Dreamcast would have done just fine.

 

[kremiso]

all who had DC in the first years know what really happened

all DC technical limits considered, yet the first games wave was fabulous

both hardware and games had absolutely reasonable prices, but it just went destroyed from a fried air colossus opponent hype

 

[MayauMiao]

Dreamcast would have been beaten by Gamecube anyway given.

 

[CuteFaceJay]

Didn't bossman at Sega invest a shit load of money into Nvidia during the early days?

 

[nush]

Dreamcast and Gamcube suffered similar console design philosophy issues that were set in place long before their release. Reliance on first party IP, limited storage media and missing what would be the default controller configuration for that generation. You could also argue not recognising the changing age and tastes of gamers with the games they wanted to play.

 

[YOU PC BRO?!]

Dreamcast was goated with a better library than most other consoles at its premature passing. It had a high number of quality exclusives, games like Soul Calibur and Shenmue that just hadn't been possible before. Some of the best games went on to release on PS2 and Gamecube after the console died which added to their reception. For those of us that had the console day 1 and bought and played all the games it was one of a kind. The innovation was also off the scale with crazy peripherals, games and things like the VMU.

Personally, having experienced games like Phantasy Star Online on launch and the sheer number of quality games, I can't think of a better time I've had gaming other than when I picked up a SNES, N64 or latter Xbox 360 years.

In the end, piracy was rife, PS2 went on to shift a ridiculous number of units and took the market. Sega ended up going down swinging, although they failed, cant ask more than that.

 

[ShadowkillXNA]

Taking out PS2 you get folks waiting for Emotion Engine sight unseen, take out Xbox as they came in thanks to the SEGA developments, they even worked together, so you just get GameCube which relied even less on the 2nd stick/extra buttons & came later with less than 500MB bigger discs

Anyway, many (most?) PS2 era top tier classics barely did anything with the right stick. From MGS to GTA, Final Fantasy, Resident Evil 4, Wind Waker, Twilight Princess & Metroid Prime, the Dreamcast would have been fine with such games/genres/styles and successors to its RPG, fighting, racing, sports & arcade games. Maken X controls like Metroid Prime. If folks wanted Halo-like T/FPS, they'd have the choice of an eventual twin stick controller (PS had no trouble making it its new default with few real/good dual analog games) or mouse & keyboard, though PS2 beat Xbox with little of it.

Even when you need more buttons, you more often than not still have the 4 (8?) d-pad directions as back then it used to be available as alternative to analog controls or even do nothing while nowadays it's very commonly used as additional inputs (ie weapon/items in Souls) so it could have been used for things like items, menus, actions in MGS & Zelda type games where people say you totally need extra shoulder buttons, on top of other clever still decently intuitive stuff like hold L then tap R to toggle stuff one way, hold R then tap L for the reverse, etc. Personally I'm also partial to the old GoldenEye/Perfect Dark single stick defaults as with the right gameplay it's weighty and physical like controlling an action game character in FPV, auto aiming what's roughly ahead Doom style (or lock on like Prime) and precision aiming RE4 style. I liked the option in later FPS like TimeSplitters. Though games like MDK2 were great with the face buttons as WASD, left stick as look/aim, L to jump/glide/jetpack/whatever, R to shoot and the d-pad to switch and use weapons/items/scopes/gadgets etc. Sure, after 25 years it's the reverse of what you're used to but it worked and works

Not that PSP isn't proof enough, it has identical inputs (worse analog) and did just fine from Monster Hunter to God of War to MGS to GTA to Final Fantasy to Syphon Filter to SOCOM to Daxter to Resistance to Tomb Raider to Medal of Honor to racing to (S/J/A)RPGs to fighting, sports and more.

And yes I know about the claw grip crap but that was way over the top and unnecessary for sane folks, I played Monster Hunter a TON on that system and just momentarily tapping a direction for my character to face that and then tapping the camera button to recenter it (or even moving my thumb from the stick to the d-pad during long animations) was more than enough and became second nature, in the heat of battle or not. Though the series later made it so the recenter button just faced the boss monster (and in PSO there's automatic flying boss camera etc.) so, it's all design

Edit: I forgot about 3DS having the same controls (its FPS tended to use the touch screen for aiming, possibly to their detriment sacrificing other inputs, but other games didn't). So the DC died in 2001 but its controls survived in Sony to 2011 and Nintendo to 2017 proving it wasn't the issue. Of course I don't claim the stick didn't have many great uses, just that it wasn't that big a deal just yet considering you could still have some of the greatest games of the whole generation doing little with it, and plenty others that did more could have been tweaked like them without it being so weird!

Idk about the space, it seems enough for epic RPGs like Skies of Arcadia, maybe they'd focus less on FMV doing stuff real time like that instead if they wanted to be on DC, even Grandia II has some of the in-engine stuff on Dreamcast done in (meh) FMV on PS2, the GTA III port has fit on a CD-R, Vice City would fit on a GD-Rom etc. I didn't think changing discs was a big deal, it was done a lot on PS, PCs had tons of install CDs and it wasn't overdone on Dreamcast and could have probably been trimmed with less duplicate files (it helped loading) etc., the max was like 4 Discs for rare games like D2/Shenmue 2. Voice acting and FMV was mostly for the highest end games, your average JRPG didn't have as much as Square's to think they would all need a ton of discs for the Dreamcast to have the genre or anything, most like the Persona or Tales of series would probably be on just 2

I'd have probably enjoyed it if it lived on but got different types of games because of this ratnalogher than be like current gen where every system gets the same stuff in slightly different performance/resolution. Like FFVII started way different on N64 and turned to something else to utilize PS discs too. Of course I'm not defending their decision to not take the Saturn 3D Control Pad which was better if they were gonna go with this design. Maybe they were being Nintendo-like in an approach trying to simplify things to attract non gamers like Nintendo with Wii for example, it could have worked. It's not like DC died over a lack of games, it got tons and fast, so, had it lived on, even with mainly SEGA support with successors to its varied catalogue tuned to its hardware and whatever third parties could fit their games without many discs, that would still mean a pretty meaty library for us all.​

It was the lack of a second analog stick and using gd roms over dvds.

 

[Bark]

As the post by Alexios pointed out, the 2nd stick was a none factor for the majority of the 00s. When the Dreamcast came out, it was impressive. And just like the ps1, Dreamcast could have gotten a dual analog controller.

 

[Drell]

Genuine question: Were GameCube's mini-disks , and to a lesser degree, since it didn't compete for long, the Dreamcast's GD-ROMS that much of an handicap for devs compared to simple/double layers DVD?

I am asking this because I'm comparing this situation to N64 vs PSX/Saturn. I'll never repeat enough how releasing a console with 8 MB cartridges in 96 was retarded. But I digress. What I mean is that back then, it was tiny, expensive and you couldn't have multi cartridge games to at least mitigate a bit the storage problem.

Now on the GameCube/Dreamcast front, it was a lot different: multi-disks games were possible, it wasn't hugely expensive to produce like cartridges and I don't remember multiplats DC/GC games having to compromise over FMVs, Streamed audio or any other content. I won't say it wasn't a problem when you look at the maths of 8.7 GB of a double layered DVD vs 1/1.5 GB. But with the advancement of compression tech was that really that big of a handicap for devs?

 

[Ceallach]

i don't think Americans understand how prevalent DC piracy was outside of their country.

 

[Karim]

i don't think Americans understand how prevalent DC piracy was outside of their country.

The main reason of the success of the psx was the extreme piracy, at least in my country. So.

 

[Instant_Classic]

The realest answer. Also, I'd add that much of the Dreamcast's library consisted of ports of arcade games, with percieved short-term replay value. It was devastatingly light on adventure-style games you could sink your teeth into, the kind of experiences PS2 would be swamped with from day one.

Yes, that is another thing.

Consoles were moving away from at home arcade experiences while a lot of DC's library were shorter but fun, arcade games/ports.

 

[Hadoukens]

The realest answer. Also, I'd add that much of the Dreamcast's library consisted of ports of arcade games, with percieved short-term replay value. It was devastatingly light on adventure-style games you could sink your teeth into, the kind of experiences PS2 would be swamped with from day one.

100%

I had bought a Genesis 2 years after SNES, I enjoyed a lot on it.

Then bought into the 32X, which had.. nothing! I owned:
Star Wars Arcade - Average at best on a good day
Doom - in name only. PC blew it away
Knuckles Chaotix - where is 32 bit? It looked alright, but wasn't even fun compared to Sonic 3 & Knuckles
Virtua Fighter - fun for a few months
Virtua Racing - fun for a couple weeks

The music was still mostly farty FM synthesis, barely improved voice samples, and no games really had a vibrant color palette. The rest of the library was barely upgraded 16 bit shovelware.

Still, I bought into the Saturn hype and got it at launch:
Panzer Dragoon - really cool for a few weeks
Dayona - really fun for a few weeks
Virtua Fighter - fun again for a few weeks
Astal - ok it looks nice but what a snore fest
Dark Savior - ZZZZZzzzzz

It certainly didn't help that magazines at the time were hyping Saturn up so much.

From Gamefan August 1995:
"Astal is a visual force. These are easily the best visuals ever to grace a video game." 95
"The second best Saturn game so far behind Panzer is Astal." 94
"In the graphics department this game has no peers" 97

Uh ok yeah sure guys. What a snooze fest!

Ended up getting Sega Rally, Virtua Fighter 2, Panzer Dragoon Zwei and Saga, Nights into Dreams, Guardian Heroes, a whole bunch of import Capcom fighting games with the 4MB RAM cart. And yeah these were all terrific but talk about slim pickings.

It certainly didn't help that only AM2 was able to make the 3d graphics shine.

Sega Rally and Virtua Fighter 2 looked amazing, the high res mode that Virtua Fighter 2 used was gorgeous, but otherwise most 3d games looked and moved like hot ass. Actually I wish they looked like hot ass, then I might have been impressed lmao.

I'm sure I'm forgetting some games that I really enjoyed, but in all honesty, besides some of the arcade ports I felt REALLY burned by Sega after all this. The few good single player games were very short. Within a few short years it felt like throwing over $1000 into a bonfire.

And once I got a Playstation 1 with that incredible library of games that only continued to get better, I never bothered to look at Sega again.

And frankly, I didn't miss much because Sega ended up doing pretty much exactly the same thing with Dreamcast. Really snazzy arcade ports, very light on content, no meat on its bones, very little to play long term.

 

[Instant_Classic]

The Mega CD, 32X and Saturn killed the Dreamcast. Having no EA games was a shocker too, when people had started buying the yearly Fifa/Madden. The controller had a tamogotchi in it and looked like a mess in shop demos when they took it out - how could they go with a worse design PS1 and N64?

It was DOA.

I get the nostalgia for it on here - I had an Amiga CD32 and loved that thing - but it was a terrible idea and put the final nail in the coffin for Sega hardware.

Honestly though, the VMU when used correctly was really cool.

Resident Evil Code Veronica for example, displayed your pulse on the screen.

Conceptually, the VMU was an interesting idea.

Imagine what it could have evolved to, over time.

Also, as mentioned in this thread missing out on EA titles was a huge loss.

 

[Instant_Classic]

Piracy did nothing.

Piracy was publicly available in summer 2000 or so. Their software sales were already laughable by then with second wave (or third, since Japan was a year before) dropping off massively. They couldn't promote software if their lives depended on it. They went with the most weird ad campaigns and promoted the most odd titles like Seaman. Sega basically had no clue.

The one thing they did was advertising the console as a cheap and online next-gen system. This worked at the 199 entry price. Plus, with the console already out in Japan for about a year meant they had ample software ready. But I felt there was a never a plan B. Just move as much as possible and burn all funds at launch week and hope for the best. Playstation Vita was kind of launched in the same way.

Gaming online back then in the late 90s was definitely niche, at the time.

A lot of areas didn't have Internet access, let alone broadband access.

Sega had the right idea about online, and it's future implications but society wasn't quite ready at the time for it.

 

[SkylineRKR]

Honestly though, the VMU when used correctly was really cool.

Resident Evil Code Veronica for example, displayed your pulse on the screen.

Conceptually, the VMU was an interesting idea.

Imagine what it could have evolved to, over time.

Also, as mentioned in this thread missing out on EA titles was a huge loss.

VMU was awesome. The fact you had a screen with information was forward thinking, and taken out it was sort of a mini gameboy. But at the same time this controller was so backwards.

The buttons etc are already being discussed, but what about that cord being at the bottom?

Anyway VMU was great. Sadly the tech still ran on CR2032 batteries ofcourse, and the plugged in controller didn't charge it whatsoever.

 

[NeoIkaruGAF]

It's impossible to analyze the Dreamcast situation without the PlayStation brand in the picture.

What the DC offered in your living room was revolutionary. The Dreamcast's texture quality and image crispness were still impressive after the console was dead. I got a used DC in 2003 and the image blew me away even if I had a PS2 and a GC.
The controller was absolutely fine. The standard had not been set yet at the time. Dual-analog controls were far from mainstream adoption. Even the GC went its own way with its controller. And the Dreamcast still has the best analogue stick in a pack-in controller ever. The VMU was also a cool addition.
GD-ROMs would also have been perfectly fine. Again, even the GC went its own way there.

No, PlayStation is what really killed the Dreamcast, for these reasons:
- the PS1 destroyed the Saturn
- the PS1 shifted the market's taste from arcade experiences to cinematic, story-driven games which required more memory just for audio dialogue and CG movies. This alone made what Sega planned to offer with the DC obsolete before it was even in the planning stage
- the PS2 promised more of that, with more capable storage media, and Sony already had the support of the whole market granted forever before the DC even released

The DC would absolutely have been competitive against Nintendo with the DC, all things made equal. But Sony had changed too much to picture that scenario. The DC was a reaction to the PS1, and the GC was a reaction to the PS2 which tried too hard to be different to compete. There's no way you can interpret what happened back then without the PS1 and 2 looming over everything.

 

[Physiognomonics]

No it wouldn't have failed without PS2 and Sega would have not killed it.

Retrospectively the lack of DVD and less memory than PS2 were the main problems. Also The MGS2 demo did a lot to sell PS2.

Finally many PS2 owners used it as their main DVD player and it was a very important deciding factor before buying such expensive console.

 

[RAIDEN1]

Before I begin, know that the Dreamcast is one of my favorite consoles ever, is legendary, and in many was state of the art when it released in 1998/1999.

There are two main reasons why the console would have ended up underperforming, despite it's strong start.

1) Lack of a second analog stick, leading to games simply just skipping the console or not working on it.

Consoles starting in the sixth gen were utilzing the right analog stick for camera and aiming controls (Halo Combat Evolved laid the blueprint in 2001 for FPS controls on consoles), among other mechanics as well.

2) GD-ROMs (Dreamcast's disc format) were limited in storage capacity, holding around a max of 1 GB.

This meant most games, especially RPGs or Open-World games would have been multiple discs on the Dreamcast, compared to its competitors.

Sega lacked the foresight to know where gaming was heading, and for whatever reason thought low storage (needed to be DVD) and one analog stick was sufficient.

I will admit, Sega did know online gaming was the future and the Dreamcast was indeed prepped for that, however.

This would have been a costly mistake, even without the PS2 dominating the gen sales wise.

PS2 ended with 160 million+ sales.

Firstly, there would be no reason why Sega wouldn't couldn't bring out a dual analogue controller, they had a similar situation with the Saturn, once they got wind of what the N64 controller brought to the table....also there was a DVD -ROM drive planned for the console but it never saw release...(though I guess with PS2 offering the better storage, instead of having to pay on top would be key...) The other point being Metal Gear Solid 2 was a key system seller as well, which from what has been said here on NeoGaf, the Dreamcast wouldn't have been able to do...Sega knew all too well that their name had been dragged in the dirt with the debacle of the Saturn and 32x, hence why they kept the SEGA branding low key for the Dreamcast, as if it was it's own independent brand...I think it certainly stood a good chance in carrying on beyond 2001 up until 2004 at the most.

 

[BlackTron]

DC really didn't do that bad until PS2 hype killed it. Not even the console itself, the expectation of PS2 killed Dreamcast alone.

GC had an equally low storage and wacky controller (and Sony proved if need be you can release a new controller).

Xbox was very influenced by Sega and you wonder what the Xbox story would even look like if Sega hadn't pulled out.

I'm not saying DC would have succeeded of only not for Sony. I can't insist it would have failed either. Removing PS2 changes the whole timeline too severely.

 

[NT80]

Wouldn't having it run DVD's at launch greatly have increased the cost?
As for the single analogue stick it did not seem like an issue at the time. I used their official keyboard and mouse for Quake 3 which was greatly appreciated since that's a far superior way to play FPS compared to a controller. The online play even though it was limited was a big deal at that time too. Quake and PSO were amazing experiences back then for a console player.

 

[Kokoloko85]

Its like every few months we need these new Sega/Saturn/Dreamcast failed and survival threads.

"Would Sega of survived if Miyamoto picked his nose on September 17 1989"

"Dreamcast wins console war if Lance Armstrong started racing 5 years prior"

"Was Dreamcast underpowered? If Julius Cesar survived the stabbings, so would have Sega"

"Could jesus have teamed up with Sega to save Dreamcast with titles like Jesus Adventure and Ju ju Rocket"

 

[deriks]

Didn't bossman at Sega invest a shit load of money into Nvidia during the early days?

Yes, since the Saturn, and thanks to Sega that Nvidia got their shit together. They're about to die and Sega's money was the thing that saved them

 

[crackajack]

Consoles starting in the sixth gen were utilzing the right analog stick for camera and aiming controls (Halo Combat Evolved laid the blueprint in 2001 for FPS controls on consoles), among other mechanics as well.

Turok on N64 had a great controller layout which is basically WASD PC controls, just for left handers and a stick instead of a mouse. The second stick is maybe more convenient, but not truly necessary in anything.

Sega never having true blockbuster games is the simple reason imho. Sonic never was Mario, Columns never was Tetris (not even Dr Mario), Shen Mue never was Zelda, Shinobi wasn't Metroid, Sega Rally wasn't Mario Kart etc etc.

 

[Wildebeest]

They bet everything on Shenmue being the "killer app" software but Shenmue was shit. It was supposed to be their Final Fantasy 7.

 

[Unknown?]

Sega had already burned a lot of goodwill with all the silly console variants of the 16/32 era and failed to capture any Western mindshare with the Saturn.

You mean goodwill and mind share matter when launching a new console?

Microsoft with magnus:

 

[nkarafo]

Turok on N64 had a great controller layout which is basically WASD PC controls, just for left handers

Right handers too. Just hold the controller from the left side and use the D-pad instead of the c-buttons.

That's how i played almost all N64 FPS games myself, so modern dual analog controls were already a second nature to me.

But you can't do that with the DC gamepad unfortunately.

 

[Gamer_By_Proxy]

The reason it would still fail is because it had no protection from burned CDs.
It was a free for all for anyone with a burner.

 

[videogamedude]

it could've used dual sticks, but quake3 played great once you adjusted to wasd with the right hand and aim with the left

fucking looked great too

 

[SkylineRKR]

The DC pad wasn't shit for not having 2 analogues. Because outside of the optional Dualshock, nothing really had it yet.

It was shit for its tiny buttons, D-pad with its edges being very rough on the thumb (with a library consisting out of so much fighting games you pretty much had to buy a stick or 6 button pad for those). Its square and pointy shaped plastic ergonomics likely causing strain on your hands. You had 6 buttons and a start button, with competitors all offering 8 buttons in some way or another (even its predecessor did). And the fucking cord placement. What the fuck. And let me throw it in here as well; the VMU beep. It would happen after mere weeks with every new set of batteries.

The triggers were good.. in racing games and FPS. The analog stick was robust, but slippery. It was okay when used with the likes of Sonic. But after prolonged play the DC pad kind of destroyed my hands like no other pad did. I've always disliked the pad.

 

[GamesDontSuck]

On a smiliar note...

I do wonder how the Shenmue series would have panned out if Shenmue 1 was released on the ps2. I know Xbox got Shenmue 2 (which was great) but not the first.

Obviously if the first Shenmue was released on ps2 it would have gotten the second. I do wonder if Shenmue 3 and 4 etc would have happened a long time ago if it had taken a different path.

 

[rodrigolfp]

1) Lack of a second analog stick, leading to games simply just skipping the console or not working on it.

Remember that the PS1 released with this:

...so there was not preventing them from start releasing the DC with another controller with a second analog stick.

 

[diffusionx]

DC controller was definitely not good enough for the time but the platform was doomed because Sega burned through their fanbase and all of their goodwill.

Thing is, this may not have happened if the PlayStation didn't exist but it did so obviously people would rather wait for the successor to a system they were happy with than go with the successor to a system they weren't happy with.

 

[TanDad25]

The Dreamcast's Maple Protocol (controller) actually supports dual analogue. So they could have launched such a controller at a later date.

 

[EverydayBeast]

Dreamcast was strange in terms of online capabilities, why it was SEGA's last, the circumstances surrounding its memory card, it felt like an intelligent console and like a contemporary to today's modern consoles. Dreamcasts problem was timing.

 

[kevboard]

1: a dual analog Controller was already planned.

2: multi disc games aren't an issue whatsoever. the GC mini DVDs only held around 1.4GB as well, and it still worked ok for it for multiplats.

 

[CrustyBritches]

I fucking loved Dreamcast. Can't really explain how awesome it was to have a better-than-arcade port of Soul Calibur at home. Then the lightgun games, online play, VMUs, 4 controller ports, etc.

At the time, the DVD playback feature of PS2 was a big deal. IIRC in '99 DVD players were still a few hundred bucks, and even in late 2000 they'd run $150-200 so the logic went I buy a DVD player get a PS2 for $100. So if PS2 didn't exist, Xbox would have probably won that gen, maybe even in spite of having to unlock playback with the remote.

 

[Black_Stride]

Ill accept no DC slander!
That first two years literally changed my gaming life.
Alot of my Greatest Of All TIme Games are from that system.......so I got nothing but love for the thing........still got mine and its actually white.