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[Three]

Why is Ubisoft fading in 5-10 years when it has Siege and is all in on GaaS btw?

What's strange about comments like this is that Siege is making more for them than the single player games like Assassins creed, SW:Outlaws, or Prince of Persia which many here choose to lambast anyway.

 

[lh032]

The industry does, these games account for literally the majority share of interest in today's gaming landscape.

Gaming forums are literally a bubble of a like-minding people, saying "we want moar single player games".

tbh, these gaas players probably buy less than 3 games per year and just main on gaas games.

In summary, only the few companies like epic or rockstar earns alot of money while the other game companies struggles day by day.
Doesnt looks very healthy for a game industry imo

 

[Topher]

There was no claim that gaming would be completely dead without GaaS but it certainly would be a much, much smaller market if GaaS revenue was not there. I would say claiming "the industry runs on GaaS" isn't hyperbolic because even the single player games that make little revenue are often funded by GaaS money. Take Epic for example and how it normally uses its GaaS money on things like Alan Wake 2 or free giveaways where it pays those singleplayer studios. There would still be a market without GaaS and small studios would still make games, gaming wouldn't die but the industry is dominated by GaaS and denial of this truth is bad, that tunnel vision is even less helpful to a company. I agree with you that this doesn't mean there is no market for single player games or things like VR. I love those things and hate GaaS but I'm not going to deny that the big players in the market are the big players due to GaaS and the others are the little guys.

Mostly agree. The only real deniers I'm seeing are those who think SP is living on borrowed time. Don't see the logic there at all.

 

[P:axMagellanic]

Yeah...i used to play Path of Exile a lot...however its a game which can quickly turn into "work". I really dont need this anymore.

There'll be a pendulous swing back to one off games and single player.

'I can't afford another F2P game'

Fortnite will still be here ten years from now, though.

 

[clarky]

Thats what annoys me the most about live service shit. You constantly need to keep the pace. If you let loose once you are out. Which is ofc desired, because thats what all live service games want. To lock you in forever.

I disagree. I did play Destiny 1 exclusively for a while but other that that I just dip in and out of games when content updates drop. You don't need to no life these types of games.

I've not played POE2 for a while for example but ill be back for the next league for a few weeks minimum.

COD and BF6 i just hop on from time to time with pals, same with Arc Raiders.

If i do no life a game for a while its because its decent. Same thing goes for Single player games.

 

[clarky]

That's because the scope of most games is ridiculous by now. We don't need Open World bloat in every single game. That's btw. also why it's so hard to look forward to any sequels these days. By the time you slogged yourself through 30 hours in game, you're done with it. It used to be something like 10 hours and by the end you were craving for more. That's why we both used to replay and anticipate games more. I mean, how crazy is it that a TOP RPGs of the 00s like Mass Effect can be completed faster than most of the action adventures today? It's crazy man. Make this shit shorter and smaller. Stop making games that are constructed in a way that basically aim for players to make a subscription after buying it. And voila, you'll have both costs and dev time in check in no time. But of course, as long as investors keeping casing that Fortnite money (and I get it, every now and then someone manages to squeeze into this market), nothing will change.

Long games aren't a new thing they just cost a shit ton more to make.

Some JRPG's can go on forever.

 

[Moriarty1889]

I prefer SP games all day over GAAS but if done right they can do well. It seems it's just harder to nail the exact formula needed for Live service games to be successful. Also there are so many games competing for your money today which makes it even harder.

 

[pudel]

I disagree. I did play Destiny 1 exclusively for a while but other that that I just dip in and out of games when content updates drop. You don't need to no life these types of games.

I've not played POE2 for a while for example but ill be back for the next league for a few weeks minimum.

COD and BF6 i just hop on from time to time with pals, same with Arc Raiders.

If i do no life a game for a while its because its decent. Same thing goes for Single player games.

Maybe soon you get bored of them as well.

 

[Guilty_AI]

I think what a lot of the business bros fail to understand (and that probably goes for many of big investors as well) is that gaming is not an industry that makes business sense to begin with. Any truly good investor who's purely profit driven trying to enter the world of games will inevitably arrive at the conclusion they're better off elsewhere.

It may sound cheesy, but gaming is an industry mainly driven by passion (as are many other entertainment industries). Try to make it about money is how you end up putting out mediocre games that see little success and laying off hundreds of people.

The day every single dev only starts caring about investments and returns is the day the gaming industry dies - not metaphorically but literally - as no good games will be made anymore and players will just fuck off to other hobbies or old games.

 

[Felessan]

Thats what annoys me the most about live service shit. You constantly need to keep the pace. If you let loose once you are out.

What for? It's FOMO
Lots of people just play on medium or even low tiers in PvP or skip content for hardcores in PvE - you don't need that shit, you can play casually just fine. Not even 2% raid Mythic in WoW - 98% play just fine without it.

I play 2-4 live service usually and for the last 15 years not in single one I strive for being the best, on the cutting edge etc. I play for story, exploration and some gameplay I like and I don't give a fuck that I skipped this rotation Abyss (and I always skip Abyss) as it's irrelevant for me.

 

[Instant_Classic]

Gamers today are just consumers. Its all about quantity

Same as Netflix people dont care about whats on the platform they just want more shows to consume.

GaaS satisfies the need, as monthly and seasonal refreshes keep players occupied and gives them new targets to aim for.

SIngle player games don't provide this level of longevity.

A GaaS game in 2026, maybe an entirely different game in 2028.

 

[nkarafo]

Those who do it professionally would like it for sure
If you are enthusiast and writing game is a side pet project to your main job - it's ok to be lenient and not care about money
If your living depends on it, most would like it to be less of a lottery draw, and for this you have to rise above indies bloodbath

So let me get this straight. If you want to create a game studio for a living, not AA or AAA, just a studio with 10-15 devs or something, the ONLY way for you to survive is to make GAAS? You can't exist even as a smaller studio if you stick to single player games, is that what you are saying?

This is the exact line of thinking that ruined videogames and caused so many great studios to die.

Thankfully you are 100% wrong. Game studios can exist and make a lot of money with single player games. All you need to is to stop trying to become the next Ubisoft or Activision or trying to get your own island and massive yacht filled with hookers. You can have a nice, comfortable life as a businessman without being in the billionaire celebrities club.

This whole "everything or nothing" line of thinking is unsustainable and needs to die. Most things exist in the in-between.

 

[clarky]

Maybe soon you get bored of them as well.

Live service games suit my playing habbits more They are easier to pick back up than say something like BG3 after a break. I rarely finish single player games that are over 20 hours long, something usually comes out and ill drop what im playing half way through never to return.

 

[calico]

So you're saying it takes many more single player games to satisfy the demand of a SP gamer than it takes GaaS games to satisfy the demand of a GaaS user? Interesting.

 

[nkarafo]

Live service games suit my playing habbits more They are easier to pick back up than say something like BG3 after a break. I rarely finish single player games that are over 20 hours long, something usually comes out and ill drop what im playing half way through never to return.

I prefer single player games. And i also love revisiting them. Which makes live-service games completely unsuited for me.

 

[clarky]

I prefer single player games. And i also love revisiting them. Which makes live-service games completely unsuited for me.

Almost like we are different people altogether.

 

[Felessan]

It may sound cheesy, but gaming is an industry mainly driven by passion (as are many other entertainment industries). Try to make it about money is how you end up putting out mediocre games that see little success and laying off hundreds of people.

99% revenue in this industry is a craft, meaning it's a pure business and not this "creators, artists, passion blablabla". 99% of creativity rot in cess pit of indies trash and there is a good place for it.

The day every single dev only starts caring about investments and returns is the day the gaming industry dies - not metaphorically but literally - as no good games will be made anymore and players will just fuck off to other hobbies or old games.

Tell it to EA, ATVI, Tencent/Netease and even Sony whose business practice is to make sure studios make commercially successful products and those who are not - get closed. Sony historically pretty ruthless to studios who do not understand financial side of the business.

 

[Topher]

Almost like we are different people altogether.

Yep. It's like when you and me were both in the Marathon beta. You enjoyed it and I didn't. Gaas doesn't turn this into a one size fits all industry.

 

[nkarafo]

Almost like we are different people altogether.

I know right?

It just rubs me the wrong way that my entertainment needs to go extinct because every developer/publisher has to be the next massive publisher who conquers the whole market.

 

[pudel]

Live service games suit my playing habbits more They are easier to pick back up than say something like BG3 after a break. I rarely finish single player games that are over 20 hours long, something usually comes out and ill drop what im playing half way through never to return.

I rarely drop any game and usually also finish all my games (if it has some kind of end). We are different....yep.

 

[clarky]

I rarely drop any game and usually also finish all my games (if it has some kind of end). We are different....yep.

I used to buy a shit ton of games back in the day, like anything that looked remotely interesting. If you saw my Steam library with hours played against each game youd probably cry. Not to mention the 1000's of games in my loft.

Curbed things somewhat as I've got older.

 

[Guilty_AI]

99% revenue in this industry is a craft, meaning it's a pure business and not this "creators, artists, passion blablabla". 99% of creativity rot in cess pit of indies trash and there is a good place for it.

Craft is passion. You can't perfect the mechanics of a racing game if you don't care about racing and is only thinking about what the shareholders will say in the next meeting.

Tell it to EA, ATVI, Tencent/Netease and even Sony whose business practice is to make sure studios make commercially successful products and those who are not - get closed. Sony historically pretty ruthless to studios who do not understand financial side of the business.

The strategy many of these publishers, like Sony or Tencent, use is to outsource creativity. They let the actual developers with passion do whatever they want to do while the publishers work mostly as yes/no men, making some occasional changes or holding the dev's feet to the fire. The moment the corpos get too involved in the creative process is how you end up with the slop produced by EA or Ubisoft.

 

[pudel]

I used to buy a shit ton of games back in the day, like anything that looked remotely interesting. If you saw my Steam library with hours played against each game youd probably cry. Not to mention the 1000's of games in my loft.

Thats exactly what I am not doing. I only buy a game if I know I want to play it RIGHT NOW. I also dont give a fck about sales.

 

[clarky]

Thats exactly what I am not doing. I only buy a game if I know I want to play it RIGHT NOW. I also dont give a fck about sales.

No sales. Normally I buy games on release. Although I was partial to a sale to mop up anything that i'd missed lol.

I only buy games that i want to play right now as well, that my issue and why the thing that i bought just then, gets dropped

Take RE9 for example, i know full well i'll buy it if you lot say its great, but it will get dropped the instant Marathon comes out if I've not finished it.

 

[nkarafo]

Alright, enough of this, i'm going back to continue my Kingdom Come playthrough. You know, the single player game Warhorse Studio made and it was a huge success for them, they even made a sequel! Crazy right?

But i know, they are kidding themselves. Since the game didn't make them as massive or as rich as Activision/Rockstar/Ubisoft/Whatever, that means they are failures and need to close down.

And after that play some Cyberpunk. Another failure i suppose, just like The Witcher 3 before it. Both failing to make the studio as big as the biggest publishers on earth. Only big enough to afford smaller villas and boats, maybe an exotic car or two but not more than that and certainly not a yacht. So mission failed, close that shit down, they should have made GAAS games.

 

[Instant_Classic]

It's how those AA games survive?
There even a picture in parallel thread about "Stick to AA games catered to loyal fanbase"

Rules are pretty much the same in both worlds:
- AAA cater to true mass market, expensive, have high production values but "safe" and quite washed-out originality-wise
- AA try to cater to some niche auditory/whales those carry them
- Indies are bloodbath of failures where everyone hope that they will be tiny few who earn moderate amount of money and loyal fanbase to become AA or turn into runaway success and be propelled straight into AAA

Going to further illustrate on your last point regarding indies being a bloodbath.

"Most indie games on Steam do not make a profit, with estimates suggesting 90% or more fail to break even due to extreme market saturation.".

These are real facts, not opinions, feelings, or anything that GAFers are using to refute hard proven data.

 

[Felessan]

So let me get this straight. If you want to create a game studio for a living, not AA or AAA, just a studio with 10-15 devs or something, the ONLY way for you to survive is to make GAAS? You can't exist even as a smaller studio if you stick to single player games, is that what you are saying?

What so difficult to understand in "rules are the same in both worlds"?
What newly created studios would/should target, SP or GaaS, is their choice, there is pros and cons in each choice.
What was written in quoted part is that it's extremely hard to live off indies (indie tier budget, not as independent developer, many mix yhis two). Because indie tier budget games are many and there it a bloodbath, and a lot of devs just die in oblivion, never get a chance to make even a slightest name for themselves. Both in SP and GaaS space (and yes, there is gaas indies too).

Thankfully you are 100% wrong. Game studios can exist and make a lot of money with single player games. All you need to is to stop trying to become the next Ubisoft or Activision or trying to get your own island and massive yacht filled with hookers. You can have a nice, comfortable life as a businessman without being in the billionaire celebrities club.

Some money - yes. A lot of money - no.
Live service games just bigger in both people and money.
You can be WuKong big or even CDPR big, but you'll never be CoD or Mihoyo or Tencent big.

This whole "everything or nothing" line of thinking is unsustainable and needs to die. Most things exist in the in-between.

Do you have problems with reading comprehension?
I mentioned 3 (three) tiers of game budgets, SP or GaaS, and tied their average success rate in direct proportion to their size. Where exactly did you saw "all-or-nothing"?

This particular topic was raised on the basis that AA games strategy is to cater to specific group of people (loyal fans/certain whales). And as it's kinda standard strategy - it's imply that it's a working strategy for them, and personally I see nothing wrong for studios go that route. Better this than studio dead.

 

[clarky]

Alright, enough of this, i'm going back to continue my Kingdom Come playthrough. You know, the single player game Warhorse Studio made and it was a huge success for them, they even made a sequel! Crazy right?

But i know, they are kidding themselves. Since the game didn't make them as massive or as rich as Activision/Rockstar/Ubisoft/Whatever, that means they are failures and need to close down.

And after that play some Cyberpunk. Another failure i suppose, just like The Witcher 3 before it. Both failing to make the studio as big as the biggest publishers on earth. Only big enough to afford smaller villas and boats, maybe an exotic car or two but not more than that and certainly not a yacht. So mission failed, close that shit down, they should have made GAAS games.

Now theres a game I actually finished KCD2. Loved it

 

[Instant_Classic]

Because they makes shit games.

There single player stuff and live service stuff is average at best.

Exactly, Ubi is fading a way because they're no longer competitive with the industry.

Could be a loss of talent, and a million other things but they're different in trouble.

 

[Instant_Classic]

What?

You really think every indie developer makes a game because they want to become the next big AA or AAA studio?

You think that's what the person who made, say, Balatro had in mind? To reach a point where he will compete with the big publishers?

You think this guy is miserable now that he failed at this task?

You think indie games are developed out of the kindness of the hearts of the dev?

Unless the game is free, it's made with the idea of making money.

People have bills to pay.

Electricity, gas, water, rent/mortgage, and so on don't just pay themselves.

 

[Guilty_AI]

Alright, enough of this, i'm going back to continue my Kingdom Come playthrough. You know, the single player game Warhorse Studio made and it was a huge success for them, they even made a sequel! Crazy right?

But i know, they are kidding themselves. Since the game didn't make them as massive or as rich as Activision/Rockstar/Ubisoft/Whatever, that means they are failures and need to close down.

And after that play some Cyberpunk. Another failure i suppose, just like The Witcher 3 before it. Both failing to make the studio as big as the biggest publishers on earth. Only big enough to afford smaller villas and boats, maybe an exotic car or two but not more than that and certainly not a yacht. So mission failed, close that shit down, they should have made GAAS games.

Replaying art of rally as we speak. Game from 2017 that i actually beat once already, but got a sudden urge to play again after many years, very fun.

I wonder if people who play the Genshis and Battlefields of today will get similar urges 10 years from now, maybe they'll boot up the game to try and play through it again, like some Paragon players do today- oh wait.

 

[nkarafo]

Do you have problems with reading comprehension?
I mentioned 3 (three) tiers of game budgets, SP or GaaS, and tied their average success rate in direct proportion to their size. Where exactly did you saw "all-or-nothing"?

Better this than studio dead.

You think indie games are developed out of the kindness of the hearts of the dev?

Unless the game is free, it's made with the idea of making money

Well, yes? When did i say the opposite?

I'm saying they don't need to compete with the biggest publishers to be able to exist.

Electricity, gas, water, rent/mortgage, and so on don't just pay themselves.

Better become the next Ubisoft then otherwise you won't be able to pay your bills.

 

[Instant_Classic]

Can you agree that live service games can be pretty awesome as well when done right?

Once people here hear the word "live service" they immediately begin to think the worse.

Live service isn't a one sized fits all approach, and can actually enhance the player experience when used optimally.

 

[Instant_Classic]

There was no claim that gaming would be completely dead without GaaS but it certainly would be a much, much smaller market if GaaS revenue was not there. I would say claiming "the industry runs on GaaS" isn't hyperbolic because even the single player games that make little revenue are often funded by GaaS money. Take Epic for example and how it normally uses its GaaS money on things like Alan Wake 2 or free giveaways where it pays those singleplayer studios. There would still be a market without GaaS and small studios would still make games, gaming wouldn't die but the industry is dominated by GaaS and denial of this truth is bad. That tunnel vision is even less helpful to a company. I agree with you that this doesn't mean there is no market for single player games or things like VR. I love those things and hate GaaS but I'm not going to deny that the big players in the market are the big players due to GaaS and the others are the little guys.

This, a lot of people's favorite games are funded with GaaS money.

 

[Felessan]

Craft is passion. You can't perfect the mechanics of a racing game if you don't care about racing and is only thinking about what the shareholders will say in the next meeting.

Craft most often than not is a professionalism
And by the time your are a pro, passion already dies out. You get money for your excellent skills, you have your pride as a pro, but you no longer love you job.

The strategy many of these publishers, like Sony or Tencent, use is to outsource creativity. They let the actual developers with passion do whatever they want to do while the publishers work mostly as yes/no men, making some occasional changes or holding the dev's feet to the fire. The moment the corpos get too involved in the creative process is how you end up with the slop produced by EA or Ubisoft.

There are very few pro with real passion
And if you want craft - you want a pro who will do a good job, not the person who just passionate about it as latter often lead to cloud judgements and bad choices. To get job done being pragmatical and even cynical often much better than idealistic and dreamful.

 

[nkarafo]

This

The poster you quoted said there is a market for SP games, which you don't believe it's true. You don't entirely agree with this poster.

Edit, just saw the edit.

 

[pudel]

I only buy games that i want to play right now as well, that my issue and why the thing that i bought just then, gets dropped

Take RE9 for example, i know full well i'll buy it if you lot say its great, but it will get dropped the instant Marathon comes out if I've not finished it.

The good thing is, you can easily finish yr sp games whenever you want....and whats even better....you are not missing a single thing.

 

[clarky]

The good thing is, you can easily finish yr sp games whenever you want....and whats even better....you are not missing a single thing.

I'd need to live a hell of a lot longer than I have left for that.

 

[nkarafo]

I'd need to live a hell of a lot longer than I have left for that.

Why, is anyone forcing you to finish them all?

I don't really understand your point of view tbh.

 

[clarky]

Why, is anyone forcing you to finish them all?

I don't really understand your point of view tbh.

Read the thread. I hardly ever finish a game, we are have a bit of a joke.

 

[Instant_Classic]

I think what a lot of the business bros fail to understand (and that probably goes for many of big investors as well) is that gaming is not an industry that makes business sense to begin with. Any truly good investor who's purely profit driven trying to enter the world of games will inevitably arrive at the conclusion they're better off elsewhere.

It may sound cheesy, but gaming is an industry mainly driven by passion (as are many other entertainment industries). Try to make it about money is how you end up putting out mediocre games that see little success and laying off hundreds of people.

The day every single dev only starts caring about investments and returns is the day the gaming industry dies - not metaphorically but literally - as no good games will be made anymore and players will just fuck off to other hobbies or old games.

Really?

So, those games in the top 10 are not developed for purpose of making reoccurring money?

I highly doubt CoD and FC26 are made out of passion.

 

[Guilty_AI]

Craft most often than not is a professionalism
And by the time your are a pro, passion already dies out. You get money for your excellent skills, you have your pride as a pro, but you no longer love you job.


There are very few pro with real passion
And if you want craft - you want a pro who will do a good job, not the person who just passionate about it as latter often lead to cloud judgements and bad choices. To get job done being pragmatical and even cynical often much better than idealistic and dreamful.

And here comes another fundamental misunderstanding of the business bros. Yes, passion can die out as the decades go by, but by the point you become a pro that way, you can only repeat what you did in the past, you stagnate. And like that you create Mindseye instead of a GTA competitor.

On the other hand, it's impossible to improve your craft or become a pro if there was never any passion to begin with, and there will always be younger people more eager to improve their craft. And thus the entertainment industry continues, producing books even after movies were invented, or making Single Player games even when business bros on the internet insist you can only pay the bills with GaaS nowadays.

 

[calico]

Exactly, Ubi is fading a way because they're no longer competitive with the industry.

They have one of the games in the top 10 you posted and are all in on GaaS. It should be impossible for Ubisoft to fail.

 

[StueyDuck]

GaaS satisfies the need, as monthly and seasonal refreshes keep players occupied and gives them new targets to aim for.

SIngle player games don't provide this level of longevity.

A GaaS game in 2026, maybe an entirely different game in 2028.

Thats exactly what I mean. Gamers just want new thing to consume...

Its no longer about what the product is, how good it is, its lasting impact, as long as they can consume now till next thing to consume. Thats all your modern gamer wants.

Thats why anyone would even bother downloading highguard...

It was literally just "game that released that day" so gamers just followed internet people and consumed.

 

[Instant_Classic]

Live service games suit my playing habbits more They are easier to pick back up than say something like BG3 after a break. I rarely finish single player games that are over 20 hours long, something usually comes out and ill drop what im playing half way through never to return.

And this is true for the majority of the population which have other obligations to attend to, outside of gaming.

They don't want the commitment single player games require.

They want to hop on, play a couple of rounds solo or with friends, do some daily tasks and hop off.

The idea GAFers have the the gaming populace wanting 60 hour long adventures is incredibly off, and out of touch.

 

[Instant_Classic]

Craft most often than not is a professionalism
And by the time your are a pro, passion already dies out. You get money for your excellent skills, you have your pride as a pro, but you no longer love you job.


There are very few pro with real passion
And if you want craft - you want a pro who will do a good job, not the person who just passionate about it as latter often lead to cloud judgements and bad choices. To get job done being pragmatical and even cynical often much better than idealistic and dreamful.

Correct

 

[pudel]

They want to hop on, play a couple of rounds solo or with friends, do some daily tasks and hop off.

The idea GAFers have the the gaming populace wanting 60 hour long adventures is incredibly off, and out of touch.

Yeah, its so much better to waste 60hours in a gaas game doing the same daily tasks over and over....lol.

 

[Guilty_AI]

Really?

So, those games in the top 10 are not developed for purpose of making reoccurring money?

I highly doubt CoD and FC26 are made out of passion.

CoD? The first ones were mindblowing for the time, they were making squad-based sim-like large scale FPS when the industry still thought it was all about horror, fast paced boomer shooters and Golden-Eye clones. Same with FIFA all the way back in 90s.

These two are only up there precisely thanks to the passion and vision from the developers all the way back then, letting them build an user-base for 30 years with sequels or more recently with live-updates. Without them, their undead corpse wouldn't be surviving as they are today, and neither it will for much longer if they don't change course.

 

[Instant_Classic]

And here comes another fundamental misunderstanding of the business bros. Yes, passion can die out as the decades go by, but by the point you become a pro that way, you can only repeat what you did in the past, you stagnate. And like that you create Mindseye instead of a GTA competitor.

On the other hand, it's impossible to improve your craft or become a pro if there was never any passion to begin with, and there will always be younger people more eager to improve their craft. And thus the entertainment industry continues, producing books even after movies were invented, or making Single Player games even when business bros on the internet insist you can only pay the bills with GaaS nowadays.

Wrong, people improve their craft in the professional world with the belief it will get them a promotion and higher up the pay scale.

 

[Guilty_AI]

Wrong, people improve their craft in the professional world with the belief it will get them a promotion and higher up the pay scale.

All improving your craft does in the professional world is getting even more work without pay. To get promotions and scale the ladder, you don't improve your craft, you kiss your bosses ass and learn how market yourself (which almost never means being good at X craft)