Rumor: Xbox 3 = 6-core CPU, 2GB of DDR3 Main RAM, 2 AMD GPUs w/ Unknown VRAM, At CES

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iamshadowlark said:
Yeah thats not true at all. The only thing that gets tedious is any kind of logical operation. For raw performance its quite easy to produce results and this comes from someone who has just two years of programming experience in this field.
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Are you trying to argue that an SPE is equal to a dedicated core? That's not true at all. The PS3 would've been better off with the same tri-core PPE that the Xbox has, in place of a single core PPE + multiple SPEs.

With the different nature of highly integrated console graphics it is a mistake to write off that as an impossibility. In addition, console GPUs, at least by MS, requires a huge R&D investment and falls outside of AMD's pc roadmaps.
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The only real "correct" I can see out of these recent rumours is the 2GB of ram. Dual GPU barely makes sense in the PC space, let alone the console space. You're right in that lesser hardware in a dedicated console will outperform its PC equivalents, thanks to its closed-box nature... but what's out there on the NV/ATI roadmaps is what the console parts will be based on. Customizations are a certainty, in all of the next gen console GPUs... but there is still a base design in place.
 
I think it would be pretty smart of Microsoft if they released two different SKUs. The first one would be their 'beefy' gaming system and the second would be a stripped down kinect/casual gamers system.

I could imagine a stripped down system could have say a tri-core cpu instead of hex core and a cheaper down clocked GPU (maybe with less shaders etc). Such a system would still be about the same performance as a Wii-U, and would run the majority of kinect/casual games at glorious 1080p, but maybe for AAA titles the graphics could be switched down to 720p and some graphical features reduced, when compared to the main beefier SKU.

It is all about choice for the consumer, and from the publishers perspective, they just want to see a large install base, they won't mind offering varying performance levels between compatible SKUs.
 
StevieP said:
The only real "correct" I can see out of these recent rumours is the 2GB of ram. Dual GPU barely makes sense in the PC space, let alone the console space. You're right in that lesser hardware in a dedicated console will outperform its PC equivalents, thanks to its closed-box nature... but what's out there on the NV/ATI roadmaps is what the console parts will be based on. Customizations are a certainty, in all of the next gen console GPUs... but there is still a base design in place.
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Dual GPUs might makes sense in the console space if they're trying to lower costs by increasing yield rates, and sacrificing efficient silicon utilization in the process. It can also be that they're trying to approximate a card better than the 6970 in the current dev kits.

They are rumors at best, but they're isn't anything blatantly wrong with them like the dedicated assistive arm cores in the Loop rumors.

As for AMD, what's out there in the roadmap for future AMD cards will be based on the next XGPU, if the architecture turns out to be as successful as Xenos was.
 
The shitty-looking Call of Duty games look leagues better on PC at 1080p with all the settings maxed. Same assets, look much much better.
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Guess it depends on your definition of "leagues".



H doesn't post anonymous emails, though.
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OK, those rumors are still ridiculous.

All I'm saying is "where there's smoke, there's fire" - and there is a hell of a lot of smoke in the air right now. There has been since March.
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Not always, I'd say there's not even smoke here, just a hodgepodge of mishmashed rumors and wishful thinking. Smoke is what was floating around before the Wii U was announced officially by Nintendo...


The rumours (in regards to hardware) in this thread are actually the least plausible of the bunch. Too outlandish, and there is no "magic tech" in the near future that's going to be massively more powerful than what's out there today. Both NV and ATI have clear, defined roadmaps.
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I find them most plausible simply because they dont claim Next box is based on a SOC, or a mobile ARM chip, or something ridiculously weak like that. Only 2GB of DDR3 isn't plausible, but that's solved by adding some fast VRAM to the GPU's. Most of the other rumors I can reject out of hand, These, I have no idea if they are true but I cant say they're implausible, except the dual GPU thing which I already commented on.

And for the "massively more powerful than whats out there today", LOL, I was simply referring to for example AMD's HD7000/Southern Islands series, which will likely be up to 2X as fast as todays GPU's (remember, this is an biannual architecture change not a refresh ala Caymen, less than 50% more performance would be a disappointment) and is expected in Q1 2012. It's quite plausible you would need to crossfire a 6000 series card in a dev kit to approximate that performance (or a 6990 or something, still =dual GPU), if MS was planning on a mid-high end or greater 7000 series based GPU, (or 8000 series or 9000 series by the time next box actually releases 2013/14).


Don't feel bad. A bet is a bet. Seeing as how I'm in Canada, could I even purchase you an Amazon gift card or you purchase me one? I know Amazon has some weird restrictions on region and I'm not sure if that's one of them. Regardless, I'm down.
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Hmm, dunno. It's a bet though. Game or 50 Amazon GC, whatever...



The final kits for the 360 went out 5 months prior to its release. They were still a disaster... just not as much of a disaster as MS providing G5s with crossfire'd ATI cards in their previous kits.
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Yeah, dont see how this says anything about a launch timeframe though, other than Xenos was rushed leading to RROD. If anything it argues against any sort of surprise early launch. Also I thought the dev kits had X800's single in them? That's why most 360 launch software didn't look very next gen...

But if you're planning on a GPU that's more powerful than anything out now (not a ginormous stretch as I showed, especially if you assume 2013+), you'll need crossfire to approximate it in dev kits going out 1, 2, 3 years before launch. That's my point. I'm still not sure how likely that is though, it feels like reaching.
 
Proelite said:
Dual GPUs might makes sense in the console space if they're trying to lower costs by increasing yield rates, and sacrificing efficient silicon utilization in the process. It can also be that they're trying to approximate a card better than the 6970 in the current dev kits.

They are rumors at best, but they're isn't anything blatantly wrong with them like the dedicated assistive arm cores in the Loop rumors.
.
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Exactly. Said it more succinctly than me on those two points.
 
StevieP said:
Are you trying to argue that an SPE is equal to a dedicated core? That's not true at all. The PS3 would've been better off with the same tri-core PPE that the Xbox has, in place of a single core PPE + multiple SPEs.
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No a spe is a specialized processor that is extremely proficient with geometric calculations and maths.It is in every since of the word a "core". Due to the lack of branch prediction it is unfavorable with logical operations (ai, some physics calculations) but it absolutely smokes the other processors in its class in raw performance.

Sony definitely should've added another PPE but to say that the ps3 would've have been better off with the xenon is disingenuous. The spe's have definitely provided an advantage to sony, which is mainly why you see games built from the ground up for the ps3 outshining those built for 360, especially considering the weaker gpu in the PS3. An updated Cell or whatever it is now, with proper branch prediction, bigger cache stores, multiple spes and ppes is probably what sony will go with next.
 
StevieP said:
Simply that extracting results out of the SPEs in the Cell is far more tedious and difficult than extracting results out of dedicated cores.
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You'd have to talk to some devs, but from what I've read that isn't really the case anymore. Much of the early issues were due more to the (lack of) tools and support. It was more the environment than the architecture.

That said, it obviously wasn't a perfect design ... but some of the more serious issues can be addressed. For example, one of the bigger problems was the inability for the SPE's to communicate with each other effectively. They had to dump info back to XDR for the PPE to then redistribute appropriately. In a modern CELL variant, I would expect that to be addressed in a similar manner to the modern POWER architecture (see Wii U). Expect a (relatively) large pool of shared memory between the SPE's. Wii U uses a large chunk of eDRAM as basically an L3 cache for fast communication between cores.

I suspect another issue may be due to taxing the PPE with both general administration duties over the SPE's (compounded by having to work around that lack of shared cache) as well as running all the game and OS code that doesn't make sense to send to the SPE's. It's a lot for a single core to handle. This two could easily be rectified by having more than a single PPE which we have already seen in CELL variants over the years.


Does CELL look as 'clean' from a high-level versus a traditional multi-core processor? Obviously no, but that doesn't mean it's automatically a poor design. In something like a PC it doesn't make a lot of sense because comparatively, it's a cost-no-object scenario, as well as one that doesn't have the same size, power, and thermal considerations. In a box where those are considerations though, it makes a lot of sense. You can simply get better performance with a smaller transistor budget.

The question then becomes whether they feel they really need the performance. If extra general purpose processing power isn't going to be used, then it may not be the best scenario. However I think that's one of the biggest areas gaming could improve. Note though I would think having OoO execution would be beneficial ... if at least in the PPE's. That would allow more efficient performance for tasks such as AI, procedural animation, etc. Granted costs and the like can come into play though.
 
iamshadowlark said:
Sony definitely should've added another PPE but to say that the ps3 would've have been better off with the xenon is disingenuous. The spe's have definitely provided an advantage to sony, which is mainly why you see games built from the ground up for the ps3 outshining those built for 360, especially considering the weaker gpu in the PS3. An updated Cell or whatever it is now, with proper branch prediction, bigger cache stores, multiple spes and ppes is probably what sony will go with next.
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An updated Cell with a few more OOE PPEs and some Edram?
 
specialguy said:
Guess it depends on your definition of "leagues".
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Image quality is night and day between 540p and 1080p.

I find them most plausible simply because they dont claim Next box is based on a SOC, or a mobile ARM chip, or something ridiculously weak like that. Only 2GB of DDR3 isn't plausible, but that's solved by adding some fast VRAM to the GPU's. Most of the other rumors I can reject out of hand, These, I have no idea if they are true but I cant say they're implausible, except the dual GPU thing which I already commented on.
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Hard (and BboyDubC, and others) haven't said anything along the lines of ARM chips.

And for the "massively more powerful than whats out there today", LOL, I was simply referring to for example AMD's HD7000/Southern Islands series, which will likely be up to 2X as fast as todays GPU's (remember, this is an biannual architecture change not a refresh ala Caymen, less than 50% more performance would be a disappointment) and is expected in Q1 2012. It's quite plausible you would need to crossfire a 6000 series card in a dev kit to approximate that performance (or a 6990 or something, still =dual GPU), if MS was planning on a mid-high end or greater 7000 series based GPU, (or 8000 series or 9000 series by the time next box actually releases 2013/14).
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The Southern Islands part is no drastic departure. GCN is the "architecture change" you refer to, and it's not even going to be ready for 2013 at this point. Meanwhile, TSMC is having issues with producing any high-end 28nm wafers, so for its initial release, AMD's 28nm parts will be laptop/mobile variants. Lastly, my biggest question in regards to a 6990 or anything similar to that is the amount of juice it sucks up and the amount of heat it puts out. Those are counter intuitive to any console environment.
 
charlequin said:
Yeah, I wasn't saying that AC3 wasn't running on a new engine, just that it's straight-up a current-gen title.
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activision_gun_xbox_360.jpg
 
charlequin said:
Where are you going with this? "They'll just put out a crappy uprezzed 720 port of AC3"?
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Even if they do that I doubt it will be crappy. AC Revelations already looks great and being able to increase the detail in the distance and improve the framerate would be more than enough for me. I understand building it from scratch would result in a better looking game but as a stop gap I'd be perfectly fine with a port of AC3 to the nextbox.
 
charlequin said:
Where are you going with this? "They'll just put out a crappy uprezzed 720 port of AC3"?
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Pretty much. Not necessarily crappy, as this gen and next gen are going to have a lot more in common than the previous ones in terms of asset production. It will be more expensive to produce games for next gen, as you always have said. But I do not believe the increase will be as massive as the industry-crushing expense this gen has caused.

I just meant it's a pretty common practice during a generational transition to do stuff like that.
 
infinityBCRT said:
Even if they do that I doubt it will be crappy. AC Revelations already looks great and being able to increase the detail in the distance and improve the framerate would be more than enough for me. I understand building it from scratch would result in a better looking game but as a stop gap I'd be perfectly fine with a port of AC3 to the nextbox.
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You can do that right now if that stuff is important to you.
 
StevieP said:
I just meant it's a pretty common practice during a generational transition to do stuff like that.
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Not generally with, like, actually prominent titles, though. For 360, the only 2005 titles with cross-generation ports (besides the annualized sports titles) were Gun and King Kong: The Movie: The Game... or in other words, one crappy Activision game and a piece of licensed shovelware. Call of Duty 2 was 360-only console-wise, they released a totally different game for PS2/Xbox. It would be basically unprecedented to launch a game on the level of AC3 on 360 and 720 simultaneously.
 
charlequin said:
Where are you going with this? "They'll just put out a crappy uprezzed 720 port of AC3"?
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Remember when Ubisoft released PC games? Kind of like that, but on time.

And I'm not sure you should disregard sports titles (1/3 of the launch lineup) just because a new one is released every year when the same thing happens with certain non-sports franchises.
 
charlequin said:
Not generally with, like, actually prominent titles, though. For 360, the only 2005 titles with cross-generation ports (besides the annualized sports titles) were Gun and King Kong: The Movie: The Game... or in other words, one crappy Activision game and a piece of licensed shovelware. Call of Duty 2 was 360-only console-wise, they released a totally different game for PS2/Xbox. It would be basically unprecedented to launch a game on the level of AC3 on 360 and 720 simultaneously.
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Hey King Kong was a decent game... :(
 
charlequin said:
Not generally with, like, actually prominent titles, though. For 360, the only 2005 titles with cross-generation ports (besides the annualized sports titles) were Gun and King Kong: The Movie: The Game... or in other words, one crappy Activision game and a piece of licensed shovelware. Call of Duty 2 was 360-only console-wise, they released a totally different game for PS2/Xbox. It would be basically unprecedented to launch a game on the level of AC3 on 360 and 720 simultaneously.
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24236045_260.jpg
 
I'd kill for a dual gpu console ( never gonna happen though ) if it meant there would be a focus on dual gpu in multiplat game development and thus leading to the pc version having great multi gpu support out the gate.
 
charlequin said:
It would be basically unprecedented to launch a game on the level of AC3 on 360 and 720 simultaneously.
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It dosent make any sense for a 3rd party to not put all the games on both machines initially. COD will not leave 360 in the next five years..

You wont see any BIG next-gen exclusives from 3rd party until like two years in to the generation when there is enough machines to sell to. That´s why you should have good 1st party studios to push from the start
 
It's easy to forget that Xbox 360 launched with almost nothing but enhanced ports. There was very little truly next gen, instead we were impressed by the higher resolution, bloom, depth of field, shaders, particles and other add-on effects mainly.

Aside from Amped 3 and PGR3, nothing was truly designed to utilize the Xbox 360.


Amped 3 => 360 original?
Call of Duty 2 => PC Port
Condemned: Criminal Origins => PC Port
FIFA 06: Road to FIFA World Cup => Multiplat port
Gun => Multiplat port
Kameo: Elements of Power => N64 > GCN > Xbox port
Madden NFL 06 => Multiplat port
NBA 2K6 => Multiplat port
NBA Live 06 => Multiplat port
Need for Speed: Most Wanted => Multiplat port
NHL 2K6 => Multiplat port
Perfect Dark Zero => N64 > GCN > Xbox port
Peter Jackson's King Kong: The Official Game of the Movie => Multiplat port
Project Gotham Racing 3 => 360 original?
Quake 4 => PC Port
Ridge Racer 6 => Enhanced port
Tetris: The Grandmaster ACE Arcade Port
Tiger Woods PGA Tour 06 => Multiplat port
Tony Hawk's American Wasteland => Multiplat port
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Similarily I'd expect 720 to have 1-3 bespoke titles and the rest would be more impressive multiplat ports.
 
Chittagong said:
Similarily I'd expect 720 to have 1-3 bespoke titles and the rest would be more impressive multiplat ports.
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Yep, and that's also going to happen if they launch in 2013/2014 or 2015. The start of a new generation will always be like that. The userbase starts at 0 and it's going to build up over the years, even MS will only need to have 1 or 2 titles to start with. But the sooner they launch the faster the 3rd parties will transition to their platform. It's the difference between having the next 'Gears of War' in 2013 or 2014. That's also why Halo 4 is on Xbox 360 as well because not everyone will upgrade right away and it's easy money.
 
Kinan said:
all according to Microsoft's keikaku:

1. Leak news about 2GB RAM
2. Wait for Sony to react and increase the planned RAM amount in PS4 from 2 to 4GB.
3. Wait for Sony to announce the 599$ launch price.
4. Laugh.
5. Launch the machine with 2GB for 399$.
6. Profit.
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Or...

1. Leak news about 2GB RAM
2. Wait for Sony to react and increase the planned RAM amount in PS4 from 2 to 4GB.
3. Wait for Sony to release PS4
4. Laugh.
5. Release Xbox 3 with 8GB
6. Laugh more
7. Profit.... in the long run

One can dream, right?
 
Chittagong said:
It's easy to forget that Xbox 360 launched with almost nothing but enhanced ports. There was very little truly next gen, instead we were impressed by the higher resolution, bloom, depth of field, shaders, particles and other add-on effects mainly.

Aside from Amped 3 and PGR3, nothing was truly designed to utilize the Xbox 360.




Similarily I'd expect 720 to have 1-3 bespoke titles and the rest would be more impressive multiplat ports.
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DOA 4?

And to say Kameo and PDZ were ports because of their Nintendo roots is silly. They were straight up 360 games...
 
itsgreen said:
DOA 4?

And to say Kameo and PDZ were ports because of their Nintendo roots is silly. They were straight up 360 games...
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QFT, other than Kameo initially being designed for the gamecube it's still one of the more impressive 360 games. There is no way that it could even be considered a port.
 
Honestly I'd be surprised as hell if AC3 doesn't make it to XB3 if the system really will launch 2012 Q4.

But with that and Wiiu that's a lot of systems Ubi will be porting the game for.
 
Whats this dumb rumor about 2 different XBox coming out, one for hardcore gamers and a cheap one for casuals/kinect based? Is this old news/rumor?
 
Chittagong said:
It's easy to forget that Xbox 360 launched with almost nothing but enhanced ports. There was very little truly next gen, instead we were impressed by the higher resolution, bloom, depth of field, shaders, particles and other add-on effects mainly.

Aside from Amped 3 and PGR3, nothing was truly designed to utilize the Xbox 360.
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Strange artstyle, but I'd say Perfect Dark Zero looked good. Dat parallax mapping.

Edit: ^^^^^ I had no idea! Cool to see it on the Xbox.
 
specialguy said:
I find them most plausible simply because they dont claim Next box is based on a SOC, or a mobile ARM chip, or something ridiculously weak like that.
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Honestly, the AMD CPU variant speculated from bboydubc's original posts makes a lot sense too.

- If MS approached them a year before (as of March), that gives AMD a reasonable amount of time to produce a somewhat customize and optimize console version based off their upcoming CPU roadmap.
- AMD is putting a lot of their eggs in the "Bulldozer, etc" basket, it's in their best interest to get at least one of the consoles to use the technology, it's not hard to see AMD cutting MS a very attractive deal.
- It's also not hard to imagine there might be some added design and logistics benefits for AMD to handle both the CPU and GPU.

Regardless of what the Next-Xbox ends up with, it's going to be interesting to see which direction they go with.
 
StevieP said:
Are you trying to argue that an SPE is equal to a dedicated core? That's not true at all. The PS3 would've been better off with the same tri-core PPE that the Xbox has, in place of a single core PPE + multiple SPEs.
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What makes a core "dedicated"? And "dedicated" compared to what?

I'd argue that, all else being equal, PS3 would have been far worse off with 360's CPU. We don't even have to look at specs or benchmarks to see that: the fact that PS3 developers invented many techniques to use Cell to make up for a lack of GPU performance, while 360 developers use the functionality of its GPU to reduce CPU load whenever possible should tell us enough about the strengths of each respective architecture.
 
Durante said:
What makes a core "dedicated"? And "dedicated" compared to what?

I'd argue that, all else being equal, PS3 would have been far worse off with 360's CPU. We don't even have to look at specs or benchmarks to see that: the fact that PS3 developers invented many techniques to use Cell to make up for a lack of GPU performance, while 360 developers use the functionality of its GPU to reduce CPU load whenever possible should tell us enough about the strengths of each respective architecture.
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In a sense, you're right... the Cell has been used to supplement the weak GPU in many known cases. But maybe they would've had a better GPU if they'd decided on a simpler, non-cell multicore PPE setup? (as is widely reported, they originally intended the Cell to completely replace the GPU but that didn't work out so well so a last-minute hackjob from NV became the RSX)

I would argue that if they intended to do a more traditional setup from the start (i.e. multicore PPE + better GPU) the Playstation 3 would be in a much different position than it is today. As an aside, it would've also had far less developmental hell stories in such a setup. Much as with Nintendo not giving Hollywood the ability to produce HD output, hindsight is 20-20.
 
StevieP said:
The rumours (in regards to hardware) in this thread are actually the least plausible of the bunch. Too outlandish, and there is no "magic tech" in the near future that's going to be massively more powerful than what's out there today. Both NV and ATI have clear, defined roadmaps.
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but the 360 GPU has elements of tech from GPUs not in the market yet. So while you can't break the laws of physics, its perfectly possible to license technology from upcoming, currently unreleased GPUs - you aren't limited just to what is literally on the market
 
mrklaw said:
but the 360 GPU has elements of tech from GPUs not in the market yet. So while you can't break the laws of physics, its perfectly possible to license technology from upcoming, currently unreleased GPUs - you aren't limited just to what is literally on the market
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Show me the upcoming paradigm shift. I'm talking about a 2012 product, here.
I'm not sure what you'll find, but I know that even GCN is going to end up delayed.
 
Pimpbaa said:
You can do that right now if that stuff is important to you.
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PC version has better Resolution but I'm not sure if the detail in the distance or shadows are any better than the console version which is the main improvement I'd want to see. I'd also like to see more NPC's in the distance.
 
StevieP said:
I would argue that if they intended to do a more traditional setup from the start (i.e. multicore PPE + better GPU) the Playstation 3 would be in a much different position than it is today. As an aside, it would've also had far less developmental hell stories in such a setup. Much as with Nintendo not giving Hollywood the ability to produce HD output, hindsight is 20-20.
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So if sony designed the ps3 differently, it would be in a different position? Really? I am having a hard time deciphering your point.

Sure sony could've been way more conservative in their design but they had ulterior motives, mainly to get CELL and blu-ray out onto the market. While Cell is a definite flop, in perspective of its original purpose, it still has shown its worth in the high performance arena.
 
I fully expect something high end by PC standards from MS when it comes to GPU. Their partnership with AMD is great and 360 had awesome GPU built by those guys, it was revolutionary.
 
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