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Can we please discuss this
- Thread starter sn00zer
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So they're bisexual. What's the big deal? I don't get why you bring that up. Is that only LBGT person you've ever met?
You know, the idea of responding to an idiot is to not be an idiot too. What makes you any better than him if you're doing the same thing?
words to live by.
Dark Octave
Banned
I really don't see how that was a bad thing to say. Just pointing out that I don't think people need to use being born gay as sort of excuse to be gay.
I swear, either I'm really bad at getting my point accross or some of you are really blood thirsty.
Devolution
Member
When people say it's a choice they're typically asserting that it's not something natural to people from birth. I assure you most of them have known, at the very least, that they were different. And the ones who could pinpoint right away their homosexuality, felt the same way about the same sex, as you or I felt/feel about the opposite sex. There is nothing really all that different about it, that's the point.
Do you not know how to evaluate claims? And yes, I'm actually asking; it isn't a rhetorical question. I don't understand your professed inability to figure out who is right.
I don't know about other people, but I dislike the insinuation that it is a choice because of the negative history attached with that notion and because of what it implies about my own experiences.
And I think that this is the main reason that it matters is that belief in whether homosexuality is a choice or is somehow innate is a rather good corollary for whether a person believes that gay relationships / behavior are immoral, whether they support gay marriage, etc. Yes, in a vacuum it might not matter whether it is a choice or not. It evidently does matter to people, however, and so the fact that it is not a choice matters.
Edit:
I think you could start by understanding that an explanation is not an excuse. They actually were!
Atramental
Banned
So, by your logic, I can choose to be gay right now if I wanted to?
Look out GayGAF. You might have yourself a new member.
ElectricBlue187
Member
you don't have to use being born as an excuse to be alive
Dark Octave
Banned
They are married which means they intend to be exclusive to that person and sex for the rest of their lives. Are there purity ranks for being gay or something? One night of straight sex and you are bisexual for life?
It's not that big of a deal, but this is a forum and it was brought up so...
Forget it. I'll just go back to the gaming side and talk about Skyrim or something. Sorry to offend everyone with my unpopular theories. I'm done.
People don't like being told who they are, which is what the choice argument is all about.
You're right that the rabid reaction people have to even the suggestion of the possibility that it could be a choice is offensive...in theory. In reality I can't think of anyone who would be marginalized if gay people want to shun people who believe that. Still pretty ugly though.
Huh? I'm in a long term relationship right now with another guy. We're actually both bisexual.
Just because you're together with someone doesn't mean you stop being attracted to other people, or rather, stop acknowledging other people's attractiveness. Divorces happen, breakups happen. If he was straight, he might have gone out and married some other girl. It might not have anything to do with his sexuality. If he is gay, he either chose to stop hiding it and be who he is, or he suddenly came to the realization. If he's bi, then he could have ended up with anyone and the gender of the person he married is irrelevant.
I don't understand what you're not getting here, because there's definitely something you're not understanding about this.
Edit: I wish you'd stay so we could talk about this instead of just giving up because you can't quite understand it.
notworksafe
Member
I can't say I blame him. The self righteousness coming from the ivory tower posters in this thread are enough to drive off almost anyone.
krypt0nian
Banned
It's called being right. That's hardly self righteous. He posted some offensively stupid shit and we're supposed to pat him on the head? Even after it was explained to him multiple times, he kept up with the "books don't matter" shit.
Fuck that.
notworksafe
Member
So basically you are saying: "I'm right because I say I am. Nothing self righteous about that!"
krypt0nian
Banned
2 + 2 = 4
Nothing to apologize for. Hardly unfounded so no worries about being self righteous.
And please continue to ignore the rest of the thread. Especially the rest of the post you didn't quote. Shitty when that defeats your premise. But not surprising as the only way to defend his postings is to turn the other way.
Earthstrike
Member
No, you just got your point across. People aren't using "being born as gay" as an excuse to be gay. Your assertion is wrong and uninformed.
The reason the issue of choice has come up is because its an argument religious people have made to try to repress a social movement that awards equal civil liberties to a group of people whom they view as performing unethical actions. This is where the societal need of gays to identify as "born this way" comes from. Much like heterosexuals, the reason homosexuals "act gay" is because they seek the happiness that comes from love and a relationship with a cherished run, or the ecstasy of ergasm from hot fucking sex.
Count Dookkake
Member
Nice.
Mike Works
Member
This is honestly one of the strangest sentences I've ever read.
This is some sort of post. I think I know what you mean, but I am far from sure.
Dark Octave, are you just saying that the 'choice' subject should be dropped entirely, since whether it's a choice or not it doesn't matter since consensual sex between adults is always OK?
The problem is that your wording consistently seems to sound like you think homosexuals are using the 'we have no choice' thing as a shield from criticism, which it sounds like you think is unfair. And if this is true, it IS a problem, because there is no choice, and the fact that you think they're like doggedly latching onto this idea in a sort of reactionary 'gay defense' is offensive, even if you don't mean it to be.
The problem is that your wording consistently seems to sound like you think homosexuals are using the 'we have no choice' thing as a shield from criticism, which it sounds like you think is unfair. And if this is true, it IS a problem, because there is no choice, and the fact that you think they're like doggedly latching onto this idea in a sort of reactionary 'gay defense' is offensive, even if you don't mean it to be.
Oh my what happened to this thread.......
Anyway, Rick Perry is a complete and utter jackass, we already knew that. Luckily his campaign is already dead with his infamous debate mishap, so we won't have to worry about that.
Howerver, I live in Texas, and I'm willing to bet he gets elected Governor again......*sigh*
Anyway, Rick Perry is a complete and utter jackass, we already knew that. Luckily his campaign is already dead with his infamous debate mishap, so we won't have to worry about that.
Howerver, I live in Texas, and I'm willing to bet he gets elected Governor again......*sigh*
Risible
Member
Why the fuck would anyone "choose" to be gay? "Hey, my life is going swimmingly, I think I'll switch to a lifestyle that will garner me prejudice and disdain from a majority of the populace!" It's so hard to be gay in a straight world, but yeah, you're right, they totally decided that being gay would be, like, super-fun.
Dark Octave, your willful ignorance is fucking shameful. And before you characterize me as just another gay person defending himself, I'm a hetero male.
Dark Octave, your willful ignorance is fucking shameful. And before you characterize me as just another gay person defending himself, I'm a hetero male.
HappyBivouac
Member
There's no way he's not trolling.
Gosh darn it! I just don't get why my repulsive viewpoints are getting such a negative response!
Am I wrong? No...no, it's EVERYONE ELSE who is wrong. That makes sense.
Dark Octave
Banned
I hate when people use this argument. The same could be said for any non-white person in the US, yet people choose to have mixed children, even when the same bs that faces gays today was hot on their shoulders. And why would I characterize you as just another gay person trying to do anything? I haven't done anything of the sort this whole thread. Why would you assume that of me now? This is the sort of thing I'm talking about. If you don't agree with me, let's talk about it. Help me understand your way of seeing things instead of throwing insults and accusations on my character. I'm an open person and a good listener but it's hard to understand what you are trying to say when it's peppered with insults and accusations.
This is probably the best post in the thread. Yes, to me it sounds like they are using the "we can't help it" angle as a way to tell opponants of gay lifestyle, that if they could they would prefer to be straight. I saw it as a cop out. But I personally don't see anything wrong with being gay so I have always wondered why do they even need to make that explaination to anyone. You are who you are and you can be whoever you want to be. Why would it be so bad if you could choose to be with whoever you wanted?
So my argument has been simply, while I do believe there are many people who are born with some chemecal makeup in their brains different from straight people, that make them prefer the same sex, I cannot rule out that we as humans are capable of choice and free thinking as well and I believe that nobody with 100% assurance can vouch for everyone in the world on their sexual situation.
I don't want to oversimplify this, but the argument that I am hearing is that even if you have lived an exclusivley homosexual lifestyle, if you have ever had a thought that you are attracted to the opposite sex, you do not have that specific chemical makeup in your brain, therefore you are not gay and are instead bisexual. Is that it or am I still way off?
Risible
Member
It's a big stretch going from an interracial couple choosing to have children despite knowing that child might face prejudice to a man deciding to sleep only with men even though he knows it'll mean a lifetime of discrimination.
Let me ask you this - why do you think people "decide" to be gay? It sounds like you think they do it merely because they want to have sex with other men. If that's the case, why wouldn't every gay person be closeted? Would it be far easier to have your cake and eat it too - in other words, have sex with men but not face the discrimination that came from living as an outed gay man?
You're right, I shouldn't have added that in to my post; I was making assumptions there.
Earthstrike
Member
How does it sound like this? Have you never talked to a gay person in your life?
Sigh.
That's ridiculous.
All evidence we have points to homosexuality being caused by a combination of genetics and prenatal environment. When someone says to you that they were born gay, that doesn't mean "I would change if I could, but I can't"; it means "I was born gay." What do you want them to say instead? If you are asked for an explanation for something about yourself, do you regularly make a point of just making shit up instead of telling people the honest answer?
There have been multiple studies of the ability of gay people to change their orientation, with success rates between 0 - 4% - and these studies do not often control for bisexuality (in which case there could be no change at all).
Most people just use the Kinsey Scale:
The assumption that most gay people make about people who claim to have changed is A) lying or B) they were 3, 4, or 5s who possessed some ability to be aroused by women.
That's ridiculous.
All evidence we have points to homosexuality being caused by a combination of genetics and prenatal environment. When someone says to you that they were born gay, that doesn't mean "I would change if I could, but I can't"; it means "I was born gay." What do you want them to say instead? If you are asked for an explanation for something about yourself, do you regularly make a point of just making shit up instead of telling people the honest answer?
There have been multiple studies of the ability of gay people to change their orientation, with success rates between 0 - 4% - and these studies do not often control for bisexuality (in which case there could be no change at all).
Most people just use the Kinsey Scale:
Code:
Rating Description
0 Exclusively heterosexual
1 Predominantly heterosexual, only incidentally homosexual
2 Predominantly heterosexual, but more than incidentally homosexual
3 Bisexual
4 Predominantly homosexual, but more than incidentally heterosexual
5 Predominantly homosexual, only incidentally heterosexual
6 Exclusively homosexualThe assumption that most gay people make about people who claim to have changed is A) lying or B) they were 3, 4, or 5s who possessed some ability to be aroused by women.
Well, it depends on how you are measuring (e.g. whether we're talking about behavior, romantic interests, or sexual interests; people who are some degree of bisexual can have differing interests in different areas and see those interests shift over time) and what gender we're talking about (women tend to be more fluid in general), but your point is well-taken, I think.
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