Digital Foundry VS Bethesda: PS3 Skyrim is still shit

Cataferal said:
What would you have the gaming media do next? Honest question :)

I think patch 1.04 could be the next major juncture for returning to the issue. The situation just hasn't changed in the last week, and you're hardly going to see headlines like "Skyrim Lag: Yup... It's still a problem" popping up every day.
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I'm not sure what I can say that hasn't already been well stated. El Suave probably summed it up the most succinctly when he said:

El-Suave said:
1. Put Sony on the spot about their certification process.
2. Ask more PS3 exclusive colleagues about their efforts to get a PS3 review copy (if there were any)
3. Discuss if Skyrim should become GOTY - ask your colleagues who gave it top honors.
4. Play around with the word "recall" - would that be possible and/or justified.
5. Get an opinion from Pachter. He sounds off on everything else.
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It's one thing to report that "Generalissimo Francisco Franco is still dead" and quite another entirely to ignore a still valid news story. No, ignore isn't even the right word. It's quite another thing to turn around and crown a game GOTY when it includes what amounts to a joy kill-switch in the form of a bug. A bug that has existed on the same platform though multiple games.

The story has barely gained any mention at all and now in the height of the Christmas buying season, shoppers are being inundated with GOTY.

This type of journalistic failing really does lend credence to the charge that gaming media is nothing more than gaming PR.
 
I have had an SSD from the start (bought one a year ago for GT5) and I am running into the frame rate issues. I take all the normal precautions (no auto save, occasional game data rebuild, etc) and once my save file got to 7MB+ it is starting to play like shit. I am now at 8.5MB and 80hours+ in and it has a lot of frame drops but nothing near the mega lag videos users posted earlier on.

So, SSD alleviates the issues, but by no means resolves them. It is absolute bullshit that they are suggesting users spend the money to upgrade to SSD's to only slightly improve their otherwise broke as shit game. Needs to be said again, fuck you Bethesda. Fuck these worthless patches, I want a system in store to refund my money.
 
iLoop said:
I've never imagined I'll find a reference to Franco in SNL! LOL
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Wikipedia

The death of Spanish dictator Francisco Franco during the first season of NBC's Saturday Night served as the source of the phrase. Franco lingered near death for weeks before dying. On slow news days, United States network television newscasters sometimes noted that Franco was still alive, or not yet dead. The imminent death of Franco was a headline story on the NBC news for a number of weeks prior to his death on November 20.
After Franco's death, Chevy Chase, reader of the news on NBC's Saturday Night's comedic news segment Weekend Update, announced the dictator's death and read a quotation from Richard Nixon: "General Franco was a loyal friend and ally of the United States. He earned worldwide respect for Spain through firmness and fairness";[2] as an ironic counterpoint to this, a picture was displayed behind Chase, showing Franco giving the fascist salute alongside Adolf Hitler.[3]
In subsequent weeks Chase developed the joke into a parody of the earlier news coverage of Franco's illness, treating his death as the top story. "This breaking news just in", Chase would announce - "Generalissimo Francisco Franco is still dead!"[4] Occasionally, Chase would change the wording slightly in order to keep the joke fresh, e.g. "Generalissimo Francisco Franco is still valiantly holding on in his fight to remain dead."[5] The joke was sometimes combined with another running gag in which, rather than having a sign language interpreter visually presenting the news to aid the deaf, the show would provide assistance from Garrett Morris, "head of the New York School for the Hard of Hearing", whose "aid" involved cupping his hands around his mouth and shouting the news as Chase read it. The gag ran until early 1977.
The line was perceived as a slap at NBC Nightly News main anchor John Chancellor[citation needed], who due to his background as a foreign correspondent, felt the network should weigh its news more heavily toward world events, and had kept Franco's deathwatch at the top of the headlines.
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astroturfing said:
really? to NO one? not a single reviewer got a PS3 copy? or at least none of the big sites? is this true..?
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With that in mind, we put in our request to Bethesda for a review copy of Skyrim, but we specified we wanted the PS3 version, to see how things had improved from past games. We were told our request had been accepted and we were down for the PS3 version. We checked this repeatedly and were told, yes, we're getting the PS3 version. When the time came, we received the Xbox 360 version instead with no explanation.
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http://www.cgmonthly.com/about/arti...mma-ps3-owners-are-second-class-citizens.html
 
astroturfing said:
really? to NO one? not a single reviewer got a PS3 copy? or at least none of the big sites? is this true..?
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So it was their obligation to buy it like everyone else. They were manipulated by Bethesda.
 
astroturfing said:
really? to NO one? not a single reviewer got a PS3 copy? or at least none of the big sites? is this true..?
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As far as I understand, no one has come to the front to say they had an advance copy of Skyrim on PS3 while there have been accounts of reviewers requesting a PS3 copy, being told they world receive a PS3 copy and ultimately getting a 360 copy.


edit: ...and beaten.

AgentP said:
So it was their obligation to buy it like everyone else. They were manipulated by Bethesda.
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I can't tell if you're joking or if my sarcasm meter is needing some recalibration.

Manipulated is a pretty accurate summation. Bethesda is certainly aware of the widespread tactic of reviewing one copy of a game and slapping the other console's name on it. Leading reviewers that specifically requested a PS3 copy to believe that they would receive one only to surprise them when there was no time to do anything else but to review the 360 copy if they wanted a review out on release day at all certainly qualifies as manipulation in my book.
 
Sye d'Burns said:
Manipulated is a pretty accurate summation. Bethesda is certainly aware of the widespread tactic of reviewing one copy of a game and slapping the other console's name on it. Leading reviewers that specifically requested a PS3 copy to believe that they would receive one only to surprise them when there was no time to do anything else but to review the 360 copy if they wanted a review out on release day at all certainly qualifies as manipulation in my book.
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Yeah, it's one thing for a report from a "smaller" site to say they didn't receive the copy even though it was requested, but for a site like IGN to not get their copies until after release says enough.

And then you get comparison videos like this that assume parity based initial impressions... well before the extended play issues have a chance to pop up:
http://www.ign.com/videos/2011/11/11/where-is-the-skyrim-ps3-review
 
It sickens me to think this game is still being sold in every major retailer, with zero warning that it is a broken mess. I'm guessing that nowhere on the box does it state that an internet connection is required to (eventually, maybe) fix all the problems the game has.

I want to go to my local WalMart and put a warning sticker on the glass, or something.
 
MarshMellow96 said:
Did CG eventually review the PS3 version?
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Yeah, on the 22nd of November. Here's a clip from the end of the review:
In final analysis, this will eventually be the game of the year for many, especially RPG fans, but my own experience of it makes me hesitate. For a AAA game that has had the benefit of years of development time, the bugginess of the final product is unbelievably high. Doubtless there are patches in the works and then it may be the game it was destined to be, which, on the Xbox 360 and PC would likely be a 93 score from me, but not for my review of the PS3 version. If you have the choice, this is a worthy addition to your collection if you own either an Xbox 360 or a PC. If you only have a PS3, you, as a consumer, will simply have to accept that Bethesda does not like you very much, but is hoping for your money anyway on a product that is clearly far more broken than it is for other customers.
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Sye d'Burns said:
I can't tell if you're joking or if my sarcasm meter is needing some recalibration.

Manipulated is a pretty accurate summation. Bethesda is certainly aware of the widespread tactic of reviewing one copy of a game and slapping the other console's name on it. Leading reviewers that specifically requested a PS3 copy to believe that they would receive one only to surprise them when there was no time to do anything else but to review the 360 copy if they wanted a review out on release day at all certainly qualifies as manipulation in my book.
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No sarcasm. I remember the PS3 IGN guys saying they pre-ordered the PS3 version at retail and they played it while the review was late. Why didn't all outlets do this?
 
AgentOtaku said:
I seriously get the vibe this is gonna get forgotten. ESPECIALLY with small attention spans of media/players. =(
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Without some sort of legal action, yeah, it will be forgotten. Many upset PS3 players have already traded in for a different version. This is really sickening though, until a patch forces me to retract I stand by what I have said in that Bethesda knew this game was broken and they've already given up being able to fix it well before release. They can't fix it, they don't know how.

They'll still take the money though.
 
This all goes back to the release date.

We know they couldn't refuse 11-11-11, ready or not. The PS3 version was (and clearly still is) not ready and the PC version has a ridiculous amount of problems as well. This is far beyond unacceptable.

It's a shame, too. Skyrim is a great game underneath. It's basically what Oblivion should've been and then some.
 
Yasae said:
This all goes back to the release date.

We know they couldn't refuse 11-11-11, ready or not. The PS3 version was (and clearly still is) not ready and the PC version has a ridiculous amount of problems as well. This is far beyond unacceptable.

It's a shame, too. Skyrim is a great game underneath. It's basically what Oblivion should've been and then some.
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But very sadly, it will still win many game of the year awards and make them a lot of money. There for giving it the ok to make us unpaid beta testers.
 
Demon Ice said:
Didn't a community manager for Bethesda post in this thread? Or another thread about the PS3 bug? Has he given any updates?
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Nope, no new updates - his last post was on the 7th and it's pretty much regurgitating the same bullshit that was posted on Bethesda's blog:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=33245417&postcount=1081

I'm sure there's not much to update, but saying a "fix" is coming isn't a consolation considering it'll be 2+ months past release before the next patch even has a chance to resolve the issue - and who knows what kind of issues that patch might introduce if 1.2 was considered a fix when it was released.
 
Stoffinator said:
But very sadly, it will still win many game of the year awards and make them a lot of money. There for giving it the ok to make us unpaid beta testers.
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Indeed, all because of a once-in-a-lifetime date.

My friend has experienced over ten BSODs on the PC version. The game hard crashes his (very well-spec'd) computer even after the 1.3 patch. Such a crying shame.
 
Shipping such a broken game is shameful, but there really seems to be no disincentive, at least for Bethesda. It doesn't help that people who are aware of the issue just purchase another version of the game instead of boycotting it altogether. Sony should enforce higher standards, I think. I don't see anyone else doing anything to stop stuff like this from happening again.

On the upside, this was enough of an incentive for me to purchase Demon's Souls.
 
From their blog:

What a night! At last night’s Spike VGA Awards, The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim was honored with Game of the Year and RPG of the Year. Additionally, Bethesda Game Studios was named Studio of the Year.
Congrats to to the BGS team and everyone else involved with the project. And a big thanks to all our fans for your continued support!
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Studio of the Year. Pickpocket skill has reached 100.
 
Greg said:
Nope, no new updates - his last post was on the 7th and it's pretty much regurgitating the same bullshit that was posted on Bethesda's blog:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=33245417&postcount=1081

I'm sure there's not much to update, but saying a "fix" is coming isn't a consolation considering it'll be 2+ months past release before the next patch even has a chance to resolve the issue - and who knows what kind of issues that patch might introduce if 1.2 was considered a fix when it was released.
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I don't expect anything for several months. The press release around that time said it all. To them it's fixed for almost all PS3 users and the rest of us should be happy they even care enough to look at the issue.
 
Greg said:
Nope, no new updates - his last post was on the 7th and it's pretty much regurgitating the same bullshit that was posted on Bethesda's blog:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=33245417&postcount=1081
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I see. Quite lame that he posted something so ambiguous and never clarified any of it.


Veezy said:
I do not mean to sound disrespctful when I say the following:

The bolded statement is, quite honestly, completely untrue (EDIT: from a consumer standpoint. I don't see any engine improvement from F3 to NV to Skyrim. Same problems are shared between the three). Fallout 3 GOTY is unplayable a certain amount into the game. New Vegas has random lock ups and constant frame rate issues. Skyrim, well, let's not even get into that. (there may have been engine optimizations, but all games become unplayable at some point. My GOTY F3 is garbage due to the issues. Skyrim is fast approaching that point)

I work in customer care, supervising actually. I do have to instruct my people to pawn an issue off for a while where there's a problem I have to fix. Delaying things happens. Telling customers you're working on it happens. However, I never EVER would tell them to say that an issue was resolved when it, honestly, was not. That's not good customer service and it's not good business. How anybody can say that Bethesda has resolved their engine's issues on the PS3 is, seriously, shocking and confusing. Seriously, play any of the above games longer than 50 hours. They'll break.

I'm so happy that I purchased these games on the cheep because your company released a broken product. I'm not blaming you, you're just a company guy, but trust me. This isn't a case of "we didn't know" anymore. Fallout 3 was bugged, NV was bugged, and Skyrim is just terrible. I can, quite honestly, say that if this isn't resolved appropriately I will do everything I can to throw a fit about this issue. Bethesda sold me an item that doesn't work. At this point, knowingly. Unacceptable.
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This is an EXCELLENT post and I really, really want to see Nick's response to it. Sorry for quoting the whole thing but I don't want this post to be ignored.
 
Demon Ice said:
This is an EXCELLENT post and I really, really want to see Nick's response to it. Sorry for quoting the whole thing but I don't want this post to be ignored.
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I'd like to hear from him how Bethesda plans to update Skyrim for those people who don't have internet access. I've posed the question several times in this very thread, without any response.

I love the idea of community managers identifying themselves and posting on these boards, it seems like a perfect way for this community (GAF) to communicate with developers, and vice-versa. I would, however, expect those managers to be available to address issues and problems that people might be experiencing, and not just use GAF as a means to advertise their game.

Watching Arne from Naughty Dog do just that (address a problem), and going so far as to actually invite GAF'ers into their studios to troubleshoot an issue that people on this board were having, was incredible, and really demonstrated their commitment to this community, and their community in general. He did this within a day or two of the games launch.

Nick, on the other hand, waited almost a full month after the release of the game to address issues people were having with Skyrim. He (presumably) ignored at least 2 threads dedicated to the serious problems people were having:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=451621&highlight=skyrim+console

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=453208&highlight=skyrim+unplayable

He didn't post once in those threads above.

He popped in for 1 day to address people in this thread, almost a full month after the release of the game - basically downplaying the severity of the problems, and posting gems like:

nickbreckon said:
Just to address that stuff: it is correct that the PS3 has less system RAM, which always poses unique challenges, but the team actually solved most of that long ago. They are fixing the remaining issues as they find them.
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And then he vanished, I assume to help the team count their GOTY and "Studio of the Year" awards, and stack all the money they collected.

I didn't loose a dime ove this, and you can see how pissed I am, I can't imagine how people who spent full price, or worse yet, bought the collectors edition are feeling.

Bethesda should be ashamed, they should not be selling a broken game, especially during the holidays, when lots of uninformed people will buy it for their loved ones. This is not how a successful, well established company should operate. Not that I put any value into the Spike VGA's, but for anyone to award a company that pulls this kind of stunt with "Studio of the Year" speaks volumes as to how corrupt the game industry can be.
 
Galactic Fork said:
I don't expect anything for several months. The press release around that time said it all. To them it's fixed for almost all PS3 users and the rest of us should be happy they even care enough to look at the issue.
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Yeah, it's absurd. When Nick responded, he said it wouldn't be months until it was fixed - however, being realistic, it's been 2 weeks since 1.3 has been announced, and it's still in the hands of Microsoft/Sony awaiting certification (announced on the 1st, released for Steam on the 7th, still MIA on consoles as of the 14th).

We're looking until at least next year (early January) before there's an opportunity for resolution - and that's under the assumption that:
2 weeks is the turnaround period
1.3 releases tomorrow on consoles
they know exactly what the issue is
1.4 is the patch to fix that issue
QA teams work through the holidays to certify it

That's a lot of IFs for a studio that knowingly released a broken product.
 
They really need to do something about the cert process, I don't mean to be impatient (well fine I am, i mad), but really we're looking at a 1 week minimum wait for each individual patches, that is if Beth is competent enough to release a fix in a day or two for every minor and major thing they break.

I mean say if 1.3 gets released, broke a few things, added a few bugs, we need to wait for Bethesda to "look into the issue", patch it, release it, and wait like a week and a half for Sony/Microsoft to certify it, that's a really long and slow patching process...
 
Glancing at this thread, is the PS3 problem relegated to a certain PS3 model number? Or is it strictly how the person plays and not necessarily how many hours? It just seems like it's not a linear rampup to these lockups with hours spent.
 
Dragon said:
Glancing at this thread, is the PS3 problem relegated to a certain PS3 model number? Or is it strictly how the person plays and not necessarily how many hours? It just seems like it's not a linear rampup to these lockups with hours spent.
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it has to do with the amount of ram usage and how it is used. they didn't seem to customize ram usage for the ps3 as opposed to xbox and pcs
 
I picture the little devil on Bethesda's shoulder: "Meh, who cares about those PS3 chumps anyway, right Bethesda? You know who butters your bread. And after all, you gave them fair warning with like 3 unplayable-on-PS3 games already, they should have learned by now, right?"
 
Todd Howard should publicly apologize if he wants to keep his honor.

Also, studio of the year? Those game journalists really do consider the hard issues when doling out this prestigious award.
 
ZeroRay said:
Todd Howard should publicly apologize if he wants to keep his honor.

Also, studio of the year? Those game journalists really do consider the hard issues when doling out this prestigious award.
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There are two aspects here.

The journalist aspect: "We don't have time to review both versions of the game on consoles, and Bethesda just sent us the 360 version so oh well let's do that one."

What do journalists owe their users?

As far as the developers, they aren't going to give the users their money back and at the same time there was fair warning based on previous games. They should try to gain good will from the PS3 crowd though. Whether that's a free DLC pack or whatever, at least throw these people a bone.
 
AgentP said:
So it was their obligation to buy it like everyone else. They were manipulated by Bethesda.
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The entire situation is amusing when you think about it.

In reality, what review mags/sites would actually have hit enough hours into the game to even witness the problem prior to publishing a review?
 
Dragon said:
There are two aspects here.

The journalist aspect: "We don't have time to review both versions of the game on consoles, and Bethesda just sent us the 360 version so oh well let's do that one."

What do journalists owe their users?
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They owe them the truth. They should specifically point out that their review is only for the 360 or PC. It's very clear that most sites didn't bother to play the PS3 version, so it's unfair to just assume that the PS3 version was running like the others. I'd also argue that they should keep users up to date about what's going on. Many major gaming sites didn't even bother to report this issue until Bethesda commented on it. And even them they didn't detail exactly what the issue was. Way too many of them are perfectly happy accepting Bethesda's "Oh, we'll fix it just give us some more time" comment. Do that shit before you release the game.

Where are all the journalists that are demanding answers from Bethesda about why they lied to consumers, or how they could release a game knowing that it's this broken? Instead they do nothing but shower Bethesda with praise even though they lied to a large portion of their consumers about the quality of the experience that they'd receive.
 
SolidSnake I agree with you. But the American gaming press especially doesn't care as much about the PS3 as the 360. They should have a news story similar to what GiantBomb did with the 360 Fifa Hack mess. For people who are casual users who may not be as crazy as us Neogaf folks they should let them know. "No you aren't crazy, the PS3 version has ridiculous framerate problems as you sink more and more hours into the game."
 
SolidSnakex said:
They owe them the truth. They should specifically point out that their review is only for the 360 or PC. It's very clear that most sites didn't bother to play the PS3 version, so it's unfair to just assume that the PS3 version was running like the others. I'd also argue that they should keep users up to date about what's going on. Many major gaming sites didn't even bother to report this issue until Bethesda commented on it. And even them they didn't detail exactly what the issue was. Way too many of them are perfectly happy accepting Bethesda's "Oh, we'll fix it just give us some more time" comment. Do that shit before you release the game.

Where are all the journalists that are demanding answers from Bethesda about why they lied to consumers, or how they could release a game knowing that it's this broken? Instead they do nothing but shower Bethesda with praise even though they lied to a large portion of their consumers about the quality of the experience that they'd receive.
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For fun, I just went to IGN.com. I clicked on PS3 -> Reviews & Top Games.

The first game on the list is The Elder Scrolls: Skyrim, it has a score of 9.5 and is an Editors Choice. It says the game is also available for 360 and PC, all three share the same score. I click on Review.

On the third page of their review they say this:

IGN said:
As good as the visuals are in Skyrim, with the PlayStation 3 version you do have to deal with ugly flickering shadows and plenty of time spent on loading menus. Every time you fast travel, every time you enter a building or town with a door, you'll need to sit through a load. You'll also experience framerate drops depending on how much happens to be onscreen. To cut down on time spent in menus you can assign almost anything – armor, weapons, spells, shouts, pieces of meat – as a favorite. This menu can then quickly be brought up during a fight, pausing the action, so you swiftly adjust to the changing nature of a battle without having to page through the main menu system.

As tends to be the case with games as large and complex as Skyrim, there are bugs. Some are minor, like dead bodies jittering madly or poking through walls. Your hands may momentarily disappear, equipping an armored face mask may actually turn you into an invisible man, and mammoths may soar into the air for no apparent reason. More serious glitches exist as well, such as those that prevent you from completing quests. How widespread these issues are is tough to say, maybe you'll have a glitch-free experience, but chances are you'll at least run into a few. Along with the occasional game crash, these issues can be periodically irritating, but given the overwhelming number of things Skyrim gets right, putting up with them is a small price to pay.
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A small price to pay indeed. But hey, if they told people to not buy this game, then their "Buy from GameStop" button, along with their 9.5 score "Editors Choice" would be rather hypocritical, no?
 
Had another 2 hour Skyrim session last night and it is getting worse by the hour now on my PS3. 8.8MB save file, 85 hours in running on an SSD with all auto saves off and game data routinely cleared.

This game is unplayable no matter what your setup is and how many bullshit "troubleshooting" steps you follow posted on Bethesda forum.

Do not waste your money on an SSD just for this game. This thread needs to constantly be at the top of Gaming. It is fucking nuts. This isn't "oh typical Bethesda bugs, lol" type shit, this game is 100% broken. It grinds to a halt, not "glitches" it just stops working.
 
railGUN said:
For fun, I just went to IGN.com. I clicked on PS3 -> Reviews & Top Games.

The first game on the list is The Elder Scrolls: Skyrim, it has a score of 9.5 and is an Editors Choice. It says the game is also available for 360 and PC, all three share the same score. I click on Review.

On the third page of their review they say this:



A small price to pay indeed. But hey, if they told people to not buy this game, then their "Buy from GameStop" button, along with their 9.5 score "Editors Choice" would be rather hypocritical, no?
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In an old thread some of us discussed what we'd like to see in reviews. Some suggested that they'd like to see reviewers include the amount of time that they played a game if there's in-game clock and an estimation if there isn't. That would not only be helpful here but also in the case of the GTA4 reviews where there were reports that reviewers were only putting in a few hours before reviewing the game. I get the feeling that IGN only played about 5-10 hours of Skyrim PS3 before declaring that the faults were a "small price to pay".

I give them credit for being one of the few sites to actually call Bethesda out, but really should've removed their PS3 review once this issue was out there. Any time you click on one of their negative articles about that version you'll see a big 9.5 for its review score. On one hand they're telling people about how unplayable the PS3 version is for a large portion of buyers and on the other you see that score and wonder how they could give a broken game that score.
 
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