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Dota 2 Beta Thread: [Brewmaster]
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carbonbased
Member
http://i.imgur.com/YU9pR.jpg
Not sure if this is a bug, but isn't that rock supposed to block sight for the ward?
Not sure if this is a bug, but isn't that rock supposed to block sight for the ward?
Ok I can see this but my question is shouldn't denying still be worth the risk because you would want to take away there gold and exp to shut them down there farm? Also I would think you would want to push your creeps ahead so you can get to the towers and take them down quickly. Thus you should be fighting with your creeps.
Apparently not high enough for DOTA according to some people in HoN that we played.
Playing against that guy and his stomp squad is so annoying, they always run strats that just annoy you.
I don't think that it works the same way as it does in HoN, ward spots seem to be different in regards to what terrain blocks them and what doesn't. For example the ward in top lane that is supposed to show the hellbourne ramp going towards the two pull camps, can't be warded in DOTA, but it can be in HoN.
not surprised as he is a well known player in dota
Yeah, he's a pretty chill guy though when I get him on my team, we always end up singing Land Down Under by Men at Work at some point during the match.
Great debate on smart casting... I'm glad we're entertaining it.
I think we're going a little off track when I said "outdated." Again... what I meant to say was that considering there is something else available, another method, it seems a bit dated just to stick with simply one option. In my heart of hearts (and, yes, this is just an opinion), if smart casting was available upon DOTA's inception... it would have been in the game.
And this is coming from a guy who hated smart casting when I first learned of it. But... look... I gave it a try and I think that there are applications of it that could work with certain spells. That said... I can also see me NEEDING the "click-to-activate" for certain spells. There are pluses and minuses... but I'd just love to see what the minds of DOTA would do with it if they chose.
I think we're going a little off track when I said "outdated." Again... what I meant to say was that considering there is something else available, another method, it seems a bit dated just to stick with simply one option. In my heart of hearts (and, yes, this is just an opinion), if smart casting was available upon DOTA's inception... it would have been in the game.
And this is coming from a guy who hated smart casting when I first learned of it. But... look... I gave it a try and I think that there are applications of it that could work with certain spells. That said... I can also see me NEEDING the "click-to-activate" for certain spells. There are pluses and minuses... but I'd just love to see what the minds of DOTA would do with it if they chose.
LoftyTheMetroid
Member
Without wanting to start a tangent/argument about it, I think there's a tendency for competitive players intimately familiar with a particular metagame to become somewhat mentally committed to that metagame. (I hope that doesn't sound offensive...)
For example, just like I hear from Dota players now, I used to consistently hear hardcore Brood War players describe any changes in SCII as being gamebreaking. The suggestion of removing Guardians might be met with claims of Zerg being "completely broken without any means of long-range siege support", or the idea of warping in Protoss units to any pylon on the field being "absolutely OP, not to mention taking away skill and pandering to casuals". The thought was that StarCraft was perfectly balanced, and SCII would ruin it by making improvements that some might consider "change for the sake of change".
I think competitive players are very passionate about the metagames they play, and this passion may sometimes prevent them from envisioning a metagame different from the one they play being balanced. (I think this is also related to the typical feedback one receives during playtesting, as noted by David Sirlin in this article.) Change, whether good or bad, almost always seems to be received negatively.
Is Dota's metagame balanced? Absolutely. Do last-hitting and other Dota mechanics contribute to this balance? Absolutely. If Dota remained exactly as it was with the sole removal of last-hitting, would it become unbalanced? Absolutely.
However, when contemplating metagame changes, it's important to keep an open mind and look at the bigger picture. Like SCII, changes shouldn't be viewed in an isolated manner and be so quickly dismissed. In the context of a new metagame with new mechanics, last-hitting might not be so integral to the balance.
I think there's often a mistake made that only a single permutation of rules can be "balanced" with an appropriate amount of depth. However, I would submit that there are actually multiple permutations, multiple sets of rules/mechanics that can still maintain a high level of depth/balance. With this in mind, one can select which permutation has, say, the lowest accessibility barrier, or the one that emphasizes the type of gameplay one might find most desirable. The removal of last-hitting might be replaced by deeper, direct player vs. player mechanics, for example. Tower ammo might also add a layer of depth unseen in Dota.
Of all the developers in the industry, I think Blizzard understands this best. That's why I don't think you should be so quick to dismiss their ideas.
Honey, the Dota players here can't even agree on whether enemy mana bars should be displayed. I wouldn't expect Dota 2 to add/change all that much. (Which, like I said, isn't necessarily bad.)
For example, just like I hear from Dota players now, I used to consistently hear hardcore Brood War players describe any changes in SCII as being gamebreaking. The suggestion of removing Guardians might be met with claims of Zerg being "completely broken without any means of long-range siege support", or the idea of warping in Protoss units to any pylon on the field being "absolutely OP, not to mention taking away skill and pandering to casuals". The thought was that StarCraft was perfectly balanced, and SCII would ruin it by making improvements that some might consider "change for the sake of change".
I think competitive players are very passionate about the metagames they play, and this passion may sometimes prevent them from envisioning a metagame different from the one they play being balanced. (I think this is also related to the typical feedback one receives during playtesting, as noted by David Sirlin in this article.) Change, whether good or bad, almost always seems to be received negatively.
Is Dota's metagame balanced? Absolutely. Do last-hitting and other Dota mechanics contribute to this balance? Absolutely. If Dota remained exactly as it was with the sole removal of last-hitting, would it become unbalanced? Absolutely.
However, when contemplating metagame changes, it's important to keep an open mind and look at the bigger picture. Like SCII, changes shouldn't be viewed in an isolated manner and be so quickly dismissed. In the context of a new metagame with new mechanics, last-hitting might not be so integral to the balance.
I think there's often a mistake made that only a single permutation of rules can be "balanced" with an appropriate amount of depth. However, I would submit that there are actually multiple permutations, multiple sets of rules/mechanics that can still maintain a high level of depth/balance. With this in mind, one can select which permutation has, say, the lowest accessibility barrier, or the one that emphasizes the type of gameplay one might find most desirable. The removal of last-hitting might be replaced by deeper, direct player vs. player mechanics, for example. Tower ammo might also add a layer of depth unseen in Dota.
Of all the developers in the industry, I think Blizzard understands this best. That's why I don't think you should be so quick to dismiss their ideas.
Honey, the Dota players here can't even agree on whether enemy mana bars should be displayed. I wouldn't expect Dota 2 to add/change all that much. (Which, like I said, isn't necessarily bad.)
Uphill miss. I think I agree with this. It's an annoying mechanic that only seems to serve a defensive purpose (mainly helping people who run away up hills [who already have the benefit of fog] and helping mid lane farm safer). Or maybe I just find miss chance irritating in general (I'M LOOKING AT YOU, FACELESS VOID).
Line of sight issues due to hills. Are you trying to indirectly nerf Pudge?
Day/night system. ARE YOU TRYING TO INDIRECTLY NERF PUDGE?!
Tower behavior. It's a bit strange, but it isn't that confusing. What about it needs to change? I agree with the general premise that using skills under the tower won't aggro it, but autoattacking a hero will. Do you mean the logic it uses to choose who to attack?
Pathing. Can you elaborate, I've had zero issues with the pathing in this game.
General unit control. I've actually already posted on the dev forums concerning control over more than one unit at a time. It's really ugly and crappy right now, although they're constantly making improvements to it (like not putting raised skeletons before Troll Warlords through tabbing, thank god).
Issues with heroes such as Invoker. Can you elaborate? If you could, how would you change Invoker's invoking mechanic? What are the consequences and negatives to his system?
More dynamic skill control. I don't see a reason not to have the option for smart casting available. I wouldn't use it personally, but I don't see how it would encourage bad behavior for new or ex-league players.
Line of sight issues due to hills. Are you trying to indirectly nerf Pudge?
Day/night system. ARE YOU TRYING TO INDIRECTLY NERF PUDGE?!
Tower behavior. It's a bit strange, but it isn't that confusing. What about it needs to change? I agree with the general premise that using skills under the tower won't aggro it, but autoattacking a hero will. Do you mean the logic it uses to choose who to attack?
Pathing. Can you elaborate, I've had zero issues with the pathing in this game.
General unit control. I've actually already posted on the dev forums concerning control over more than one unit at a time. It's really ugly and crappy right now, although they're constantly making improvements to it (like not putting raised skeletons before Troll Warlords through tabbing, thank god).
Issues with heroes such as Invoker. Can you elaborate? If you could, how would you change Invoker's invoking mechanic? What are the consequences and negatives to his system?
More dynamic skill control. I don't see a reason not to have the option for smart casting available. I wouldn't use it personally, but I don't see how it would encourage bad behavior for new or ex-league players.
Initially I thought this was really fucken stupid, but then I realised it's not that bad of an idea, prevents heroes getting free kills blinking into areas they've never been in an attempt to kill someone at low health, as well as adding a risk factor to blinking onto ledges in order to counter ward instead of using the chicken.
I think that mid lane would be boring if it wasn't for having to worry about creep positioning due to miss chance, or standing on enemy hill in order to avoid missing at the risk of bad positioning. The only hero you play is Pudge though, WHY YOU CARE
Lactose_Intolerant
Member
they pretty much rolled mtw. MTW must have spent all their teamwork on the epic match yesterday.
Last hitting is a huge determinant of skill up there with positioning and game sense; also I don't see how removing it would be plausible in any way. What would ranged heroes do lol? You can't harass anymore because melee heroes will just walk close enough to get gold from creeps, and YOU have to walk up in range of creeps to get gold??? If the range on the gold is the same as a ranged attack, then melee heroes can just sit at the tower. Hell, a 1v2 (a huge skill/patience matchup) would become a joke. Sit at tower, get free gold.
In a 1v1 situation at mid, last hitting is just as important as harassing, just as important as killing, just as important as positioning to win the lane. The game would become extremely boring to watch and play without it; heroes just sitting there collecting free gold, until they decide they have enough 45 minutes in to team fight. I mean with supports getting every single creep wave, what incentive is left to team fight? One and a half waves = one hero kill; there would be little reason to roam or set up ganks (and it would become harder to do so with heroes not coming up to last hit--many ganks are based around catching a carry as he desperately tries to come up and get that one creep kill).
Is that enough negative xD?
It sounds like people are mis-interpreting the Smart Casting thing.
This is whats its like right?;
SC = mouse over + hotkey
No SC = mouse over + hotkey + mouse click
The extra time for hotkey + mouse click if you know you want to cast the skills must be like 10ms, if that. Its not like there is a lot of moving around to be done. You could pretty much press them simultaneously and it would work.
The time for an extra click seems negligible.
Does smart casting do some kind of auto aiming or something? Like if you dont click directly on the target it re-targets for you? I could see it being both useful and maybe annoying if this happened.
Also the way towers act in Dota2 seems insanely inconsistent. In HoN you always knew exactly what a tower would do, not so much in Dota2
This is whats its like right?;
SC = mouse over + hotkey
No SC = mouse over + hotkey + mouse click
The extra time for hotkey + mouse click if you know you want to cast the skills must be like 10ms, if that. Its not like there is a lot of moving around to be done. You could pretty much press them simultaneously and it would work.
The time for an extra click seems negligible.
Does smart casting do some kind of auto aiming or something? Like if you dont click directly on the target it re-targets for you? I could see it being both useful and maybe annoying if this happened.
Also the way towers act in Dota2 seems insanely inconsistent. In HoN you always knew exactly what a tower would do, not so much in Dota2
FlutterPuffs
Member
In the best of times, Dota 2 is like sex. In the worst of times, Dota 2 is like prison sex.
The way you described it is correct. It doesn't target anything for you, it just negates the need to add in that click.
what part of it encouraging spammy play aren't you understanding?
Togglesworlh
Banned
All this conversation about changes and WC3 engine limitations vs Dota 2 wild west just make me excited for whatever NEW SHIT Valve is gonna throw at us in the future, once they have the full hero list implemented.
Kapura, just because some players are shitty and would use smartcasting in a shitty way doesn't mean they shouldn't implement it. Your logic is horrendous. I hesitate to even call it logic.
Kapura, just because some players are shitty and would use smartcasting in a shitty way doesn't mean they shouldn't implement it. Your logic is horrendous. I hesitate to even call it logic.
carbonbased
Member
yeah i am done arguing with the brick wall. smartcasting will be implemented sooner or later and i will laugh gleefully as i "spam" my way to victory.
Go to Community, on the right sidebar click "View Inventory".
It should be under Steam and you can gift it from there.
Not sure if they're still doing that but open up steam's main window, click "Games" at the top and then click Manage gifts and guest passes (I think) and there should/hopefully be two invites there for you.
I hate smartcasting. Especially when certain champions *COUGHRIVENCOUGH* mix smart casting and unsmart casting in the same move. If it's implemented, I hope it is completely optional. For me, it's actually a loss of precision because it gets harder to make split second decisions to cancel a skill. In LoL this doesn't matter because all skills are spammable anyway but in DOTA? Accidentally hitting R as Lina while my courser is over a creep is not something I want to deal with.
I like clicking just fine, thanks.
Also the pathing thing. If they made the pathing more efficient (as in, using decent algorithms), creep blocking would be impossible. Or else they'd have to spend more manpower just to get creep blocking working again with a new pathing scheme.
I really hate it when people toss this argument around but those changes put me in mind of what Riot did with LoL. If you want to remove all this stuff from DOTA you might as well play LoL, which is designed and balanced on the assumption that these things don't and won't exist.
I like clicking just fine, thanks.
Also the pathing thing. If they made the pathing more efficient (as in, using decent algorithms), creep blocking would be impossible. Or else they'd have to spend more manpower just to get creep blocking working again with a new pathing scheme.
I really hate it when people toss this argument around but those changes put me in mind of what Riot did with LoL. If you want to remove all this stuff from DOTA you might as well play LoL, which is designed and balanced on the assumption that these things don't and won't exist.
I don't care either way for smartcasting since i never used it in LoL, but i hate these type of arguments for same reason people say no to a 5 out of 5 surrender vote that 'It encourages a defeatist attitute'.
The way i see it, don't like it, don't use it, but don't stop other people from using it though.
So the update is out early, and again Archie, it isn't Invoker.
Notable changelog stuff
Arta update your avatar please
Notable changelog stuff
Change Log said:
Change Log said:
Change Log said:
Arta update your avatar please
You could do this before, their usually on the last page of the list. Sadly their still delayed I think with the spectate option, so you can't talk to anyone in spec chat that was their on creation of the lobby.
I know that feeling man, on vacation for the next 3 weeks, and I only brought my macbook with me. No Mac client yet, wtf.Too bad I'm gonna go brb afk from dota 2 for a week starting from tomorrow
For some reason, our games only get 64 spectators when we're doing really really badly.
Gondar!!
Too bad I'm gonna go brb afk from dota 2 for a week starting from tomorrow
you know what's worse? after new years, i only get to play during the weekends
Only an elitist dota purist would complain on the lack of a mac client! Go back to your blizzard games!
and I just learned that HoN has a native OSX client and LoL doesn't seem to have one.
They should really hurry up and get the Dota 2 OSX client out imo.
They should really hurry up and get the Dota 2 OSX client out imo.
RIP!
LOL, sorry I love my mouse gestures! I can kind of understand why they don't have the Mac client out though, probably have their hands full getting rid of all the windows bugs.
You keep sippin that Kool-Aid.
Too casual, I think we need to add experience loss on death.
They should also add a free teleport home and remove TP scrolls.....oh wait LoL already did that. ZING
I'd buy a NintenDOTA. The Wii U controller can be a mini map or something.
If you wanna make it some next level hardcore shit, add down leveling Final Fantasy XI style.
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