Support NeoGAF

[The Technomancer]

Yes! Yes! Kill jaggies! Kill them with with fire!

 

[Y2Kev]

Reach is gorgeous apart from the weird ghosting, which I assume is a byproduct of the post-processing AA. The game had awesome particle effects, though, and tons of stuff going on at once.

It's some kind of temporal AA. It's in Crysis 2, too, effectively. It's AWFUL. Jaggies > ghosting. It doesn't even work that well, IMO.

 

[Zabka]

Game in development: We're going to eliminate jaggies, have crisp shadows and improve texture filtering/loading. Image Quality is very important to us!

Two weeks before game's release: Oh shit TURN ON THE MOTION BLUR!

 

[Cow Mengde]

Rare used fur shading for the grass in Star Fox Adventures.

 

[vumpler]

They're saying you can improve detail in the simulation, but as you do that, you need even greater image quality to discern that detail. That's why something like Crysis with no AA at all looks far more jaggy than the average console game with no AA. You have lots of sub-pixel size geometry that's still being displayed as some ugly jaggy mess.

Virtualized geometry would allow for more resources to be spent on image quality, but that technology as it stands could only really be used as a skin on top of a game. For example those fancy trees, if you actually built a tree from a billion voxels, when you hit it, you need to calculate the trajectory of a billion voxels, which isn't going to happen. So you'd still need the same technology under the fancy little balls.

I thought that was a polygon rendering limitation? They talk about eliminating that. *dunno*

 

[evilalien]

It's some kind of temporal AA. It's in Crysis 2, too, effectively. It's AWFUL. Jaggies > ghosting. It doesn't even work that well, IMO.

Yes, the blurring is because of the temporal AA that Reach uses. It is essentially blending the current frame with some of the previous frame which is why it looks like total shit during fast motion.

 

[soldat7]

Reach is a beast of a game considering the console it runs on, the recording features of the engine, the size of the levels, the complex encounters, and just how dang good it looks compared to other shooters on the system. Forge World is insane.

And Halo 3 still has the best lighting of any 360 game, bar none. I can't wait to see Bungie's multi-platform efforts. I think we'll be blown away.

 

[Somnid]

Never understood the obsession with AA. On PC I often turn it off just because I don't like the blurring. Considering the cost it just doesn't seem worth it much of the time. I'd rather that power go to framerate first and foremost, then draw distance and then if there's cycles to burn AA/AF.

 

[Hermit the Krog]

Never understood the obsession with AA. On PC I often turn it off just because I don't like the blurring. Considering the cost it just doesn't seem worth it much of the time. I'd rather that power go to framerate first and foremost, then draw distance and then if there's cycles to burn AA/AF.

Huh? MSAA doesn't cause any blurring and properly implemented post processing AA (e.g. FXAA with subpixel smoothing turned off) shouldn't either.

 

[inky]

...and 16x AF is rather cheap so that should be always on anyways.

 

[Hermit the Krog]

...and 16x AF is rather cheap so that should be always on anyways.

It definitely will be next gen as modern GPUs handle it with no problem at all, in fact it shouldn't shift your framerate at all.

 

[legacyzero]

Halo 4 confirmed for Next Gen Xbox?

 

[soldat7]

Halo 4 confirmed for Next Gen Xbox?

Bungie is done with Halo.

 

[AcceptableGhost]

The ghosting in Reach is absolutely horrendous.

 

[op_ivy]

Halo 4 confirmed for Next Gen Xbox?

halo 4 is confirmed for 2012. on 360. by 343i.

bungie is working on an entirely new ip

 

[benzy]

FF xiii-2's grass is nice.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5S6DaeHB-B4&list&t=2m23s

 

[Gravijah]

Out of curiosity, how do you feel about these two?


2.) In terms of animation: http://i.imgur.com/YmA5r.gif

am i the only one who doesn't really like the hair physics in alice 2? i suppose they fit the world, but they're so... floaty. (yes, i understand there is air lifting her up there. i'm not just talking about that.)

 

[burgerdog]

We better get 16xAF next gen. Could anyone explain why current gen consoles can't do it?

 

[Somnid]

Huh? MSAA doesn't cause any blurring and properly implemented post processing AA (e.g. FXAA with subpixel smoothing turned off) shouldn't either.

The entire point is to average a bunch of samples for a pixel. Your black becomes a shade of grey. It blurs regardless of the type and where the sample came from. This blur is exactly what people like about it because it reduces hard edges.

 

[racerx77]

For those hoping for 60fps on the next consoles (I am too), I think we are going to be let down. Most developers will, I'm sure, go for more detail and 30fps. I would love to see otherwise, but..

 

[skyfinch]

Fix shadows, damn it. They are so ugly this generation.

 

[Stallion Free]

It definitely will be next gen as modern GPUs handle it with no problem at all, in fact it shouldn't shift your framerate at all.

Modern GPUs.... as in any GPU released in the last 15 years, right?

We better get 16xAF next gen. Could anyone explain why current gen consoles can't do it?

I think devs think people won't notice since their game is running at 720p.

 

[Angelus Errare]

We better get 16xAF next gen. Could anyone explain why current gen consoles can't do it?

lack of ROPs and not enough bandwidth

 

[elsk]

Bungie talking about graphics, quite ironic. This thread just made me feel bad about Rare now making Kinect games

 

[AlStrong]

lack of ROPs and not enough bandwidth

TMUs (texture addressing/filtering units), not ROPs

 

[Randy Lanzarote]

Damnit, after seeing those Kameo, Viva Pinata and Banjo shots I'm even more sad about what Rare has become. I'd love to see what they could be pushing on the 360 now :-(

ah well, i'll always have the memories.

 

[Hero of Legend]

Fix shadows, damn it. They are so ugly this generation.

I said it before and I'll say it again, I think Wii U has done away with ugly shadows going by the Bird demo and Lego City Stories:

 

[Binabik15]

I just started Skyrim maxed with a couple of mods and the pixilated foliage and trees make my eyes water. Blergh. Crysis 1 was gorgeous, but the palm trees were super aliased, shattering the illusion and killing the look. In a lot of pc games grass often looks like PS1 sprites or maybe PS2 sprites photoshopped next to super smooth, awesomly lighted, highly detailed characters and great textures. The only thing worse than super fake looking and aliased to hell vegetation is when.it.doesn't.move. And edge shimmering, but with a lot of AA you can get that down.

That MGS3 pic is shaming a lot of devs.

PS: I still want 60 fps, though.

Edit: Oh god, I totally blanked out the shadows in Skyrim. I had to check if they were set to (super) low.

 

[Orayn]

Halo: Reach had some of the worst post-process AA induced ghosting I have ever seen.

Hopefully this means they picked up on that.

The ghosting came from weirdly implemented object motion blur as well.

 

[Hermit the Krog]

I said it before and I'll say it again, I think Wii U has done away with ugly shadows going by the Bird demo and Lego City Stories:

Lol wut? Wii U doesn't contain some magic shadowing hardware that modern PCs don't have and if they still face shadowing problems, so will Wii U. Even the Bungie graphics guy says that shadows probably won't be 'solved' even by the end of next gen and that we'll have to wait longer. It's a shame since realtime lighting is advancing ridiculously quickly and you need good shadows to back that up.

 

[Future PhaZe]

I just want great A.I. It's the elephant in the room these days in a world where nearly every game released on next gen platforms looks acceptable visually.

You look at a game like Skyrim where you break into a dudes house, kill his wife then cast invisible...dude looks at his wife dead on the ground, shrugs and goes back to bed.

SMH

 

[skyfinch]

I said it before and I'll say it again, I think Wii U has done away with ugly shadows going by the Bird demo and Lego City Stories:

Tech demos do nothing for me. I have to see in game.

 

[zoukka]

I just want great A.I. It's the elephant in the room these days in a world where nearly every game released on next gen platforms looks acceptable visually.

You look at a game like Skyrim where you break into a dudes house, kill his wife then cast invisible...dude looks at his wife dead on the ground, shrugs and goes back to bed.

SMH

That shit can be done already.

 

[RooMHM]

Here's what Bungie needs to solve :
-making a good graphics engine
-making good looking games
-Try not to be 3 years late in terms of graphics technology

They have failed horribly so far.

 

[Dennis]

Here's what Bungie needs to solve :
-making a good graphics engine
-making good looking games
-Try not to be 3 years late in terms of graphics technology

They have failed horribly so far.

Worst post of 2012, so far.....

 

[Future PhaZe]

That shit can be done already.

wat

 

[Blizzard]

Thanks for the link. That was an interesting article. Personally I would rather have great image quality and hardly any aliasing, with hardly any shadows, than mediocre image quality/aliasing/blur/bloom and better shadows.

 

[Tain]

A modern 60fps Halo game would be pretty cool.

Not that I'll ever get to play one. :|

 

[Gravijah]

wat

i assume he means ai can be improved greatly, it's just that devs see no reason to spend money on it.

 

[Walshicus]

Bungie talking about graphics, quite ironic.

Not ironic at all?

If you're used to playing set-piece a-to-b-to-c FPS on consoles then yeah, I guess some of the design decisions made with the graphics in Halo games might seem "poor". But when you compare what Halo actually does as a game; compare the attention to detail in lighting, combat effects and so forth... well, it's ridiculous to doubt their pedigree.

 

[Tashi]

A modern 60fps Halo game would be pretty cool.

Not that I'll ever get to play one. :|

I can see 343 being graphics whores about Halo 4.

 

[Gravijah]

I can see 343 being graphics whores about Halo 4.

so 30 fps?

 

[Special J]

bungie is approaching this in the wrong way.

these problems are fixed by having more powerful hardware. they need to focus on the much bigger picture like refining their art, and color tone.

their engine isnt cutting edge in visuals but they do have different priorities like control response and large scale sandbox environments and excellent dynamic a.i.

 

[op_ivy]

those doubting reach's technological achievements should read digital foundry's article on the matter.

Halo: Reach is that game, an enormous technical leap over its predecessors and competitors on 360 and an exciting example of a first-party exclusive that genuinely pushes the console into new technological territory - something we don't see so often on the Microsoft platform.

 

[Ranger X]

Those aren't true problems to me. If there's pretty much only jaggies and shadows in order to "solve" graphical problems we are in the god damned golden age of gaming!

What would wow more next gen in my opinion is if devs would actually focus to pull off 1080p native games at 60fps. They wouldn't even NEED soft shadows if normal shadows simply were 1080p. Jaggies would also be a story or the past.

 

[Special J]

The guys at Sony Santa Monica had a specific code/engine for shadows in GOWIII, and I haven't seen anything come close to that on consoles since. Wish they'd share the love.

looks precalculated, what happens when you move kratos over the shadows, do the shadows from the chains actually cast on kratos character model?

 

[StuBurns]

those doubting reach's technological achievements should read digital foundry's article on the matter.

I don't see how the game is pushing any boundaries. It can't possible be the scope that's hurting the IQ. GTA4 was 720p with decent AA, considerably better than Halo Reach, and it's open world, it has to be more than twenty times the size of any level in Reach.

 

[Gravijah]

I don't see how the game is pushing any boundaries. It can't possible by scope that's hurting the IQ. GTA4 was 720p with decent AA, considerably better than Halo Reach, and it's open world, it has to be more than twenty times the size of any level in Reach.

you brought your face back!

edit: god damn it

 

[benzy]

looks precalculated, what happens when you move kratos over the shadows, do the shadows from the chains actually cast on kratos character model?

You can still have baked-in environmental shadows look like they're casting over moving object models. Forza does it.

 

[Togglesworlh]

looks precalculated, what happens when you move kratos over the shadows, do the shadows from the chains actually cast on kratos character model?

I hope those aren't pre-baked. They look like utter shit if they're pre-baked. You can see the fucking aliasing in the shadows. This does not (or at least, should not) happen with pre-baked shadows.

Also the chain shadow looks identical in quality to the enemy's shadow, so I really doubt it's pre-baked.