Callibretto
Member
Rush Hour reference? or this is just a common US jokes?
(I first hear it in Rush Hour, one of my fave movies)
(I first hear it in Rush Hour, one of my fave movies)
PSM: PS4 specs more powerful than Xbox 720
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bgassassin
Member
This is where it first started.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=26392219#post26392219
Then go to post #464.
Then a few months later came that HardOCP article you discredited.
ViewtifulJC
Banned
Combichristoffersen
Combovers don't work when there is no hair
haha... it'll come in time, prob by E3 time
E3 is gonna be glorious, my body is so ready for the gifs
I wonder if there are going to be changes now on PS4 and it's spec/tech when Vita underperformed in Japan, and will most likely do the same in the west...
I personally believe Vita results will scare them. I do not see PS4 being more then 349 at most, with one SKU being 299$ on launch day
I personally believe Vita results will scare them. I do not see PS4 being more then 349 at most, with one SKU being 299$ on launch day
343i is a subsidiary of Microsoft, created solely to oversee the Halo franchise after Bungie left the nest.
A small oversight. Nonetheless, my point still stands.
jeff_rigby
Banned
Followed your cite and looked at all posts by the IBM employee and one stuck me....IBM is working on (Console) projects out to 2014 release. (paraphrased)
So more support for 2014 and PS4 and that puts the rumored next gen Xbox release at least 6 months before the PS4 (or whatever it will be called) and PS4 in the sub 28nm die size which would support a more powerful GPU or CPU at a reasonable console power envelope.
Khronos PDF from Nov 2011 outlining plans for HTML5 WebGL features and Augmented Reality both inside and outside a browser. It's mostly a slideshow with pictures so it's easy to follow. What I take from this and the PS3 HMD (head mounted display) and Samsung Glasses demoed at CES is that CE companies are gearing up for AR (September 2012 mentioned). PS4 feature?
I certenly hope so. If those predictions of mobile devices getting freaking powerful in a few years are to be believed, I think it would be a good strategy for home console manufactures to differentiate the home experience from the mobile one more profoundly than in terms of prettier graphics.
jeff_rigby
Banned
I'm completely fine with that. With my backlog of 5 games, plus ME3 and Halo 4 coming out this year, I can easily & happily wait until Q4 2013 for a new console.
Cygnus X-1
Member
Let's hope that the price will not be as high as a certain PS3 at launch.....
bgassassin
Member
Not if the CPU is from AMD. Sony was the only one linked to AMD.
Castor Krieg
Banned
More importantly: why does it even matter? X360 is also less powerful than PS3, that doesn't stop it from selling better.
Deus Ex Machina
Member
Two stories here... The GPU in 360 is far more advance than the off the self 7800 series from Nvidia in PS3.. just as the CELL to 360 CPU.
one would argue GPU is more important nowadays
iamshadowlark
Banned
Due to recent developments, its pretty safe to assume that Sony won't go with AMD for the CPU.
Why is this? Apologies but I missed this one.
Also if Sony is arriving late to the party they had better have a better console, higher specs that's more dev friendly would be wonderful.
bgassassin
Member
What recent developments? By the way, that post he responded to was in response to a question you made.
but blu ray!
I would guess bulldozer failing to match expectations.
Bulldozer fails to compete with Sandy Bridge, but I'd say that Bulldozer should have a lot less to worry about when competing with IBM's rumoured new PowerPC for the Wii U/other consoles (probably a POWER7 derivative) and when code is specifically written for it. In fact, I'd not even rule out the next Xbox going for Xenon cores again.
CadetMahoney
Member
I'd posit blu-ray helped movies more than it did the PS3.
iamshadowlark
Banned
Well thats half of it. Sony has already stated that they are looking for a 28nm SOC and if im not mistaken AMD skipped that entirely with Bulldozer? Also factor in that they want DSPs with programmable logic and IBM looks like their guy, as they already have multiple architectures with these features.
AMD cancelled their planned 28nm APUs in November, but it is expected that they will be going for 28nm again some time in 2013, because apparently they had issues with TSMC and not with 28nm.
Also: where did Sony say anything about the PS4 at all? Did I miss something?
bgassassin
Member
Considering they helped design Cell, it's not like they'd have to go through IBM to make an SoC with DSPs. They could just as easily do the same thing through AMD. Especially if the GPU is coming from AMD as well. That's fewer "moving parts" unlike last time where you're essentially looking at Sony, Toshiba, IBM, and nVidia. This time would just be Sony and AMD.
Yeah I'm curious to see how bulldozer would perform in a closed box environment.
Why would they do that when the architecture is ancient by today's standards?
Where did you read on what Sony wants for the PS4? Honest question as I'd be interested to read it.
Edit:
Joke post right?
So all the games that performed better on the 360 was due to MS being a bully? I'd love to have what you're smoking.
bgassassin
Member
This thread.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=458527
As for Bulldozer, if that were the one the CPU is based on I'd also expect some kind of cut-down version since it has eight-cores.
microsoft always bullying poor sony
sony are just a small tiny everyman corporation, they don't deserve this!Ze_Pershing
Member
People who argue this point forget that on the gaming level it's much closer between these two procs.. It's on application level where BD fails when compared to SB.. SB is a better chip no doubt, but tweaked BD for consoles could yield good gaming performance for cheaper price.. If that's the path Sony wants to take.
I'm not referring to you specifically but you're just the last dude talking about SB vs BD
I come in peace.ps. damn this forum moves fast.
Death Dealer
Member
Why would third parties feel bullied by MS ? What is the leverage ?
If PS4 is more powerful, and not any harder to program, it stands to reason the multiplatform ports will run/look better, without extra effort on the part of developers.
Now if a third party game already runs at a perfect 60fps 1080p on the new Xbox, there may not be an obvious advantage to the PS4 version, but I suspect next gen, just like this one, developers will push as hard as they can, so many 60fps games won't stay locked at 60fps, same with 30fps.
If that's the case that PS4 launches later but is more powerful, I think it would turn out like PS2 and Xbox. Third parties didn't really bother to push the Xbox over and beyond the PS2, simply because of the market share. But multi-platform games still looked better on Xbox because it was more powerful, more overhead for higher image quality, less frame drops etc.
iamshadowlark
Banned
You believe that they would go into all that trouble and waste all that money to design a chip when IBM has stuff ready to go? I also can't remember AMD doing anything meaningful with programmable logic unlike IBM.
DCKing said:
The SCE CTO recently laid a roadmap for future tech. I don't have the thread and search is broken on my phone. Look it up.
Edit: Cool bg posted the thread.
Because games are getting to the point where the CPU frankly doesn't matter at all - it's all about the GPU. Xenon is a simple design that does what it needs to do quite well for a remarkably small amount of silicon. This is an important feature for a console architecture, but very important if the chip is going to be part of a SoC, and using less space for the processor means that they're able to use more die size for GPU silicon. As far as I know the Xbox 360 CPU has never been a limitation for any games - all bottlenecks were in the memory and the GPU - and I doubt you could imagine a CPU workload that's going to be too much for it next gen (if I'm wrong about this I'd love to hear though). Importantly, reusing the Xenon cores is going to guarantee backwards compatibility with Xbox 360 code. Of course they wouldn't use the exact same triple core - for example more cores, more cache and clocking it at 4 GHz should definitely make for a difference with the 360.
I'm not arguing that the next Xbox will definitely use Xenon. But I do see it as being a realistic option for Microsoft.
In that case, using Bulldozer will definitely give Sony and edge over the next Xbox, although a CPU advantage will probably be quite useless.
bgassassin
Member
What does IBM have that's ready to go for an SoC with DSPs that will still need the GPU logic from another vendor? I also think you're kind of being unfair to Sony and their technical capabilities.
iamshadowlark
Banned
Cell? I also don't see what the big hassle would be for them to contract a separate vendor for a GPU. Its standard practice.
Also I'm not underestimating sony at all. They're the most capable hardware company of the Big 3 easily.
Why exactly do you feel the CPU is becoming less important?
SpinningBirdKick
Banned
The console with the least horsepower won this generation.
So I'm guessing that Sony won't be trying to compete on price next generation by having weaker hardware.
Instead playing the big power for a high price marketing angle that the core day 1 crowd will fall for hook, line and sinker... again.
Yay! Disappointments all round!
$699 confirmed.
So I'm guessing that Sony won't be trying to compete on price next generation by having weaker hardware.
Instead playing the big power for a high price marketing angle that the core day 1 crowd will fall for hook, line and sinker... again.
Yay! Disappointments all round!
$699 confirmed.
Admiral Bone to Pick
Banned
Not that I think this sort of approach is the wrong way to go, but I hope Sony learned their lesson from this generation that a high-end, expensive console isn't going to do well in the mass market.
Umm it doesn't sell better. The ps3 has sold more units WW on a yearly basis since it released than the 360. I believe it will overtake the 360 sometime this year?
bgassassin
Member
I figured Cell would be your answer. But from the way the man from Sony described the application of the DSPs, that doesn't sound like how I envision Cell. And yes that is standard practice, but not for an SoC. Not saying it's impossible, just that it would be more logical to use one company that can provide both the CPU and GPU.
And the reason why I said you seem to be kind of underestimating them is because you made it sound like they'd have to use IBM to implement DSPs. AMD may or may not have a history with DSPs and/or programmable logic, but I'd like to think Sony could make up that difference for them to propose it.
It's more of an empiric observation from PC benchmarks. It makes sense though - although games are getting prettier, their complexity doesn't grow quite as much. Furthermore, graphics chips have taken over pretty much all graphics processing. Again:
I mean, I know you like your Cell, but that's a whole different thing as it is allowed to function (by its specialistic design) as secondary GPU because of the limitations of the GPU it is combined with.me said:
iamshadowlark
Banned
Well the 360 CPU is far from perfect and is poor at a lot of things. Both Cell and Xenon suffer from lack of branch prediction which developers probably have found ways around, but still must induce large headaches. Xenons small ass cache probably makes cache misses a pain to deal with too. A proper CPU with branch prediction and out-of-order execution will do wonders for next-gens AI and physics.
Cool thanks, I read that thread but completely forgot about it for some reason =p
You're right that the GPU is becoming more important, but the CPU should still be a priority as well.
Instantly off the top of my head I can think of one game that was CPU bound on the 360. IIRC the issue was resolved for the follow up game, but that doesn't change the fact that it can and has happened. Optimization and tricks will only get you so far.
MS would be incredibly stupid to use Xenon cores for the next xbox, it's in no way a realistic option really.
Sure, branch prediction (MS/IBM might improve on that) and out-of-order execution will be helpful to programmers but wat:
And that one game would be interesting as well.
What games have AI and/or physics systems that are even considered 'heavy' for a CPU? Especially AI isn't taxing in most games at all!
Please do tell me why, though
And that one game would be interesting as well.iamshadowlark
Banned
Sure, branch prediction (MS/IBM might improve on that) and out-of-order execution will be helpful to programmers but wat:
What games have AI and/or physics systems that are even considered 'heavy' for a CPU? Especially AI isn't taxing in most games at all!
Please do tell me why, though
None this gen because of how branch-intensive the code is. A few branch mispredicts could stall the whole pipeline in these CPUs, so most developers redesigned AI and Physics routines but hardly improved, if anything they took a step back. Cell was able to shine in physics because of the raw number crunching power but still it could be alot better. You need logic hardware for games.
Also next-gen as you could imagine you're gonna have a larger number of infinitely more complex objects to run your physics on so the CPU will be more important than ever.
TheLegendOfMart
Banned
Playstation Magazine says PS4 will be faster than Xbox 720?
The fact it is an old design born on 90nm and already shrinked to 45 and likely to move to 32/28nm before the next MS platform is released is a good enough reason.Please do tell me why, though
They have likely a design in production that better suits current node size - frequency, yelds, die size, thermal envelope, etc - and will better translate to smaller, future processes. It's a key point to reduce manufacturing costs down the life of the console.
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