Support NeoGAF

[bengraven]

Very few people seemed to agree with that and instead argued that sports are genuinely meaningful. I supposed I thought GAF was above such silliness, but clearly I was wrong. Many GAF members correctly understand that video games are trivial as well, for example, but I suppose there are likely more members who think games are genuinely meaningful than I anticipate, too.

I saw this just now as a response to what I said, but you basically covered it as you usually do and everyone responded to you the way they would have for me. ha

I think it's fair that they find meaning in their sport, but it seems like sports people look down on non-sports people as if they don't get the meaning and can never understand it.

 

[tranciful]

The anniversary dinner is at least as important to her as his love of football. She also believes they are better when done on the actual date, just as he feels sports are best watched live.

The caveat of if his preferred team makes it there the game comes first also shows she does understand the importance of the game. She is saying this:
1 - Your team making it to the superbowl would be more important than the one-year anniversary of our wedding
2 - Any team but your team making it to the superbowl wouldn't.

I'd call that an absolutely fair compromise.

It isn't going to be every year she makes it a choice, either; she just felt first year was a particular milestone. I'm sure she'll feel the same about the fifth and tenth etc. Why not?

Moreoever, she has absolutely no investment in the football, whereas he shares an investment in the anniversary dinner. While the specific timings of the dinner might not matter to him as much, the dinner still does. He has more reason for allowing the dinner to take precedence over the superbowl than she does letting the superbowl take precedence over the dinner.

Or she could have scheduled the wedding so there's no conflicts and everybody wins every year for the rest of their happy marriage.

 

[WanderingWind]

Okay. Why is that? Explain why these are different and hold no analogous value.



Correct. That's why I enjoy baseball, but fully admit that it is meaningless.

The final arbiter of importance is objectivity. If something is valid, functional and important whether I happen to care about it or not, it has real meaning. Medicine fits this definition, for example: even if I am a rabid anti-vaccine advocate, vaccines still work and hold value.

Sports fit none of these definitions.

You want me to explain to you how inflicting torture and watching football are different? What, are from Cleveland or something?

But no. No, I won't do that.

 

[SuperSonic1305]

I don't see what the problem would be doing both. He can watch the 20 minutes of actual football being played while they celebrate their anniversary during the 4 hours that they don't do shit.

 

[Yaboosh]

I was legitimately shocked to see how many people in the MLB/NFL/NHL/etc. threads actually felt that sports were meaningful and important activities.

I don't mean you can't enjoy them, mind you; I enjoy baseball personally, for example. I just fully recognize that it is ultimately trivial and silly, no different than a person who enjoys shoe shopping or going to romantic comedy films.

Very few people seemed to agree with that and instead argued that sports are genuinely meaningful. I supposed I thought GAF was above such silliness, but clearly I was wrong. Many GAF members correctly understand that video games are trivial as well, for example, but I suppose there are likely more members who think games are genuinely meaningful than I anticipate, too.

The pomposity of this post is astounding.

 

[tak]

I think both sides of this story are a little silly.

 

[bengraven]

Wow, so liking sports makes me a Dude-Bro now?

Dude-bro I am.

..and sports is different since it's scheduled events. Most other hobbies, barring events like conventions, can be put off rather easily. Scheduled sporting events, are.. wait for.. it already scheduled at a set time.

My other hobbies, like gaming and painting can be moved around freely whenever I want. Watching the game? It's on at one set time. It's an aspect of being a sports fan that's appealing, it's an event.

I said the party was the typical dudebro stereotype. I said nothing about sports types being all dudebros. I thought there being sports types on a gaming website nullified that. Don't put words in my mouth.

 

[SuperBonk]

Not to mention that nobody here gives a crap about what is objectively meaningful.

Saying something is meaningless about something that millions of people find meaningful is hilarious.

Saying something is meaningless that anybody at all finds meaning in is ridiculous.

It might be meaningless to you, but who cares?

Objective meaningfulness is a moronic idea that Opiate seems to have introduced to "win" some internet argument.

Agreed

Again, we need to separate causes from effects. It is perfectly possible for someone to derive something meaningful from something meaningless. I may, for example, kill a person over a shoe. That doesn't mean that shoe fashion is now objectively meaningful; just that something silly and trivial produced a tragic and very real result.

Why does that person's life have objective meaning?

 

[BronzeWolf]

He is "legitimately shocked" that people find the celebration of physical perfection meaningful...

Let that sink in

 

[Diprosalic]

The anniversary dinner is at least as important to her as his love of football. She also believes they are better when done on the actual date, just as he feels sports are best watched live.

i'm not saying she shouldn't get an anniversary dinner but having it on a day that just happens to have the same number as the day you were married is stupid. this day is in no way similar to the day they got married. it just happens to be 365 days later. this holds no value what so ever. take her out to a fancy dinner on saturday have the day be all about her and let him have his sunday.

 

[Opiate]

Man, watching you try to define objective value is a little depressing. By your logic, if we wanted to anything (objectively) meaningful in life we would have to be scientists.

Mostly yes. I'm not sure why that is bad.

And even then it's flawed because we need to take the idea that human life has any sort of meaning as axiomatic.

Not necessarily. All you need to show is that:

1) You have a specific goal
2) That goal is accomplished by following those steps.

So, for example, medicine is objectively meaningful because it works whether you happen to believe in medicine or not, and also whether you happen to value human life or not. Regardless of your personal preferences, medicine attempts to extend the lifespan of humans, and it accomplishes that task, even if you hate humanity with every fiber of your being.

Does literature inherently hold meaning for you, Opiate?

No.

You want me to explain to you how inflicting torture and watching football are different? What, are from Cleveland or something?

But no. No, I won't do that.

I don't think you understand analogues if this is your mindset.

 

[eznark]

Some people like books, some people like sports, some people like to pretend to be Internet intellectuals with rose smelling shits.

If it gives you pleasure, it's meaningful.

 

[The_Hitcher89]

People apply meaning to sports, therefore its meaningful imo. Only two things bring the entire nation of England, or the vast majority at least, together as far as I know. Those two things are the country coming under attack, be that via terrorism/crime or verbal criticism by prominent politicians/intellectuals/celebrites, and when England are playing in a high-profile sport.

At the end of the day for me, if it makes you proud, its meaningful to a degree

 

[gatti-man]

ITT We find out who has never been good at/ never played competitive sports.

 

[bengraven]

Some people like books, some people like sports, some people like to pretend to be Internet intellectuals with rose smelling shits.

If it gives you pleasure, it's meaningful.

ITT We find out who has never been good at/ never played competitive sports.

Um, I played quite a few sports in my youth. I had fun, actually doing it, and would probably play it now. But watching it is bland and boring.

 

[NervousXtian]

I said the party was the typical dudebro stereotype. I said nothing about sports types being all dudebros. I thought there being sports types on a gaming website nullified that. Don't put words in my mouth.

Proud to be a dudebro if having chips, dip, beer and lots of screaming and fun makes it a dudebro party.

Sounds like a good time. Let loose a little, have a few beers and try to enjoy yourself. In the end, look around at everyone else having fun and wonder why the heck you can't just enjoy yourself.

 

[BronzeWolf]

Medicine

Sports make humans fitter.
Watching sports gives humans something to strive for and reasons to exercise besides just getting fitter.

 

[Opiate]

Some people like books, some people like sports, some people like to pretend to be Internet intellectuals with rose smelling shits.

If it gives you pleasure, it's meaningful.

Just be glad I work hard to be a level headed person, and that I haven't banned people for extremely rude comments which are obviously directed at me even if they aren't explicitly stated as such (that is not exclusively directed at you).

If you have a position you'd like to put forth, support it with reason and evidence. That is how discussion functions. I've certainly done my best to do so in this thread.

 

[bengraven]

Proud to be a dudebro if having chips, dip, beer and lots of screaming and fun makes it a dudebro party.

Sounds like a good time. Let loose a little, have a few beers and try to enjoy yourself. In the end, look around at everyone else having fun and wonder why the heck you can't just enjoy yourself.

That's your thing, bro. Not mine. I've been doing this kind of party for decades, literally and I tried to enjoy myself for a long time. Just not my thing at all.

 

[ShinAmano]

Just be glad I work hard to be a level headed person, and that I haven't banned people for extremely rude comments which are obviously directed at me even if they aren't explicitly stated as such (that is not exclusively directed at you).

If you have a position you'd like to put forth, support it with reason and evidence. That is how discussion functions. I've certainly done my best to do so in this thread.

He did. He said if it gives you pleasure it is meaningful. That is an argument ender.

 

[NervousXtian]

That's your thing, bro. Not mine. I've been doing this kind of party for decades, literally and I tried to enjoy myself for a long time. Just not my thing at all.

Well, stop going. Tossing insults at the people who go and actually enjoy themselves doesn't make me feel sympathy for you.

 

[BronzeWolf]

That's your thing, bro. Not mine. I've been doing this kind of party for decades, literally and I tried to enjoy myself for a long time. Just not my thing at all.

So you don't enjoy it? Is someone forcing you to go?

 

[Forceatowulf]

Pretty god damn obvious who's the alpha in that relationship....

Bu that being said, the dude signed on to this shit so.. i mean... I can't feel too bad for him. You chose to be with this chick and now you will suffer the consequences.

 

[Opiate]

He did. He said if it gives you pleasure it is meaningful. That is an argument ender.

It really is not. I've made a concise and (I feel) quite reasonable counter argument repeatedly, just in this very thread.

Virtually everything gives pleasure to at least someone, so we would have to conclude that literally everything has "meaning" by this definition of the word. That is a useless and non-functional definition; if everything has meaning, then it is useless to say that something is "meaningful" -- of course it's meaningful, everything is meaningful!

 

[Ripclawe]

And yet I wasn't going to let a football game -- even the football game -- get in the way. We went ahead with that plan, he watched the game at my parents' house the next day and life was (and is) beautiful.

I know people who have changed their wedding date because its on superbowl weekend and the fact she knew about it and still went ahead(what the week before or after would have been worse?) shows it was done out of spite.

 

[Greg]

The final arbiter of importance is objectivity. If something is valid, functional and important whether I happen to care about it or not, it has real meaning. Medicine fits this definition, for example: even if I am a rabid anti-vaccine advocate, vaccines still work and hold value.

Sports fit none of these definitions.

And these vaccines are created by people that are passionate about what they do despite you having no stock in them.

I guess all of the failed medical experiments along the way that didn't lead to a cure were just meaningless and trivial?

Just be glad I work hard to be a level headed person, and that I haven't banned people for extremely rude comments which are obviously directed at me even if they aren't explicitly stated as such (that is not exclusively directed at you).

I haven't read a single thing in this topic directed towards you that's more offensive than your initial comments.

 

[Hasphat'sAnts]

Short of going to the army and fighting in wars. Sports is the best way to learn about people management and leadership.

 

[Slayven]

Powerplay, and can't wait until her life after divorce article.

 

[gatti-man]

Um, I played quite a few sports in my youth. I had fun, actually doing it, and would probably play it now. But watching it is bland and boring.

Did i quote you? Watching sports is a world pass time so your opinion is in the vast minority however that wasnt even my point. Sports have value and anyone who says otherwise just is being bitter about having no athletic ability or is simply unable to distance themselves from their own personal dislike of sports.

Edit: playing sports is important for yourth structure. Many peoples first taste of failure is sports. Sports brings people together and forges youth friendships that can last a long time. So many things in our world culture isolate but sports can bring people together on a local level. It has tremendous value.

 

[brucewaynegretzky]

Just be glad I work hard to be a level headed person, and that I haven't banned people for extremely rude comments which are obviously directed at me even if they aren't explicitly stated as such (that is not exclusively directed at you).

If you have a position you'd like to put forth, support it with reason and evidence. That is how discussion functions. I've certainly done my best to do so in this thread.

Yeah because discussion being level headed all the time is always the preferred method.... :/ You really think that type of objective, analytical analysis is always preferable? (Mind you this is coming from a logic geek/law student.)

GAF is sorta weird that way. Sometimes insults just belong. I've been saying moderation here is a little too prude for a while. Opiate I'll ask that you please stay away from NHL-GAF. Bish takes care of us just fine.

 

[dream]

Mostly yes. I'm not sure why that is bad.

I think it's the tone. Whether it's intentional or not, marginalizing things that hold value for others as "objectively meaningless and silly" is incredibly derisive.

 

[apana]

Something is meaningful because it is a physical phenomenon? Play counts in that too, animals are programmed to use playing as a way to learn and interact and sports arises from those instincts.

 

[Suairyu]

i'm not saying she shouldn't get an anniversary dinner but having it on a day that just happens to have the same number as the day you were married is stupid.

I can just as easily saying having to watch sports live is stupid.

Anniversaries are celebrated in terms of number years after the fact. So they fall on the same day. That's the point. It is an intrinsic quality of their definition. It easily conceivable why someone would think it is as important that an anniversary be celebrated on the actual anniversary as it is a sports fan think a game is best watched live.

They both agreed on the terms and (some of the people who replied to me seem to forget) the wedding date. She even left in a caveat for if his team got into the superbowl.

Given that they both agreed to the terms, any arguments that the wife are wrong are also arguments that the husband is wrong. They are both saying their first-year anniversary is more important to them than a superbowl game where their favoured team does not feature. This is their choice. By continuing to argue that she (and thus, he) is wrong, you are trying to make some case for the superbowl being an objectively more important event than a first-year wedding anniversary, which I think you'll struggle with.

 

[Dead Man]

Okay. Why is that? Explain why these are different and hold no analogous value.



Correct. That's why I enjoy baseball, but fully admit that it is meaningless.

The final arbiter of importance is objectivity. If something is valid, functional and important whether I happen to care about it or not, it has real meaning. Medicine fits this definition, for example: even if I am a rabid anti-vaccine advocate, vaccines still work and hold value.

Sports fit none of these definitions.

I don't agree with your definition of meaning or importance (not sure which you are actually defining at the moment), but even if I did, sports can still be meaningful. Feelings of social inclusion and belonging are important to people, and these are facilitated by being a memeber of a team or following a team. There are objective benefits to it. Any particular sport may have no inherent meaning, but sport as a concept certainly does.

 

[WanderingWind]

Mostly yes. I'm not sure why that is bad.



Not necessarily. All you need to show is that:

1) You have a specific goal
2) That goal is accomplished by following those steps.

So, for example, medicine is objectively meaningful because it works whether you happen to believe in medicine or not, and also whether you happen to value human life or not. Regardless of your personal preferences, medicine attempts to extend the lifespan of humans, and it accomplishes that task, even if you hate humanity with every fiber of your being.



No.



I don't think you understand analogues if this is your mindset.

Ah, this old chestnut. No, you just made a terrible, terrible analogy. If you are truly confused as to why, here is a little hint. One is a highly illegal, harmful activity. The other is not.

 

[Yaboosh]

Just be glad I work hard to be a level headed person, and that I haven't banned people for extremely rude comments which are obviously directed at me even if they aren't explicitly stated as such (that is not exclusively directed at you).

If you have a position you'd like to put forth, support it with reason and evidence. That is how discussion functions. I've certainly done my best to do so in this thread.

Ok, my position is that "objective meaningfulness" is an idea you have introduced that is irrelevant, to justify you or somebody else saying that something is meaningless when it clearly has meaning to lots and lots of people.

 

[ShinAmano]

It really is not. I've made a concise and (I feel) quite reasonable counter argument repeatedly, just in this very thread.

Virtually everything gives pleasure to at least someone, so we would have to conclude that literally everything has meaning. Which is a useless and non-functional definition of the word. If everything has meaning, then it is useless to say that something is "meaningful" -- of course it's meaningful, everything is meaningful!

Something can be meaningful if it give pleasure to only one person. That means you are right and everything is meaningful. Whether or not it is meaningful to everyone is where the disconnect is. There is nothing that is meaningful to everyone...nothing.

 

[Emitan]

Sounds like a good time.

Yes, if you enjoy that sort of party is sounds like a good time. And if you don't?

Let loose a little, have a few beers and try to enjoy yourself. In the end, look around at everyone else having fun and wonder why the heck you can't just enjoy yourself.

I don't have to wonder why I'm not enjoying myself. It's because I don't like parties, don't like drinking, and don't like screaming at a TV about groups of people I have never met or have no connection to.

 

[Dr. Malik]

For one she should have picked a better date knowing that her husband is a football fan for the wedding. Her husband also shouldn't have succumbed to her if he wanted to enjoy the Super Bowl for the rest of his life. But in this case it is their first year anniversary which imo should be held to a higher priority than a game where your favorite team isn't even playing. Either way its a lose-lose scenario knowing he is going to miss out on some games and she is going to feel guilty about it by making him so, their anniversary will always be clouded when it lands on Super Bowl Sunday as long her husband enjoys his football.

 

[Deleted member 8095]

I wouldn't marry someone that wouldn't let me enjoy things that are meaningful and enjoyable to me. Thankfully, my fiancee is awesome and if we ever had a conflict like this she would be perfectly fine celebrating a day early or a day late like a normal, rational person.

 

[eznark]

Just be glad I work hard to be a level headed person, and that I haven't banned people for extremely rude comments which are obviously directed at me even if they aren't explicitly stated as such (that is not exclusively directed at you).

If you have a position you'd like to put forth, support it with reason and evidence. That is how discussion functions. I've certainly done my best to do so in this thread.

My last sentence is my stance. I'm not interested in navel gazing over the relative importance you personally hold for other peoples hobbies or even engaging you in conversation on the topic. If you think I was directing my comment at you, thats a you problem.

Trying to judge and rate the inherent importance or value of what people do to make themselves happy seems like a great discussion for a GOP debate.

 

[CrocMother]

It really is not. I've made a concise and (I feel) quite reasonable counter argument repeatedly, just in this very thread.

Virtually everything gives pleasure to at least someone, so we would have to conclude that literally everything has "meaning" by this definition of the word. That is a useless and non-functional definition; if everything has meaning, then it is useless to say that something is "meaningful" -- of course it's meaningful, everything is meaningful!

Sports is an incredibly social activity, and achieves higher meaning through social reinforcement.

It's different than an individual activity in that way. You mentioned video games earlier, for those that play them competitively, who have social reinforcement accompanying their hobby, it achieves a higher emotional meaning.

When people make a collective emotional investment in a team, it increases the emotional consequences for the individual.

 

[Opiate]

And these vaccines are created by people that are passionate about what they do despite you having no stock in them.

I guess all of the failed medical experiments along the way that didn't lead to a cure were just meaningless and trivial?

They certainly can be, yes. In other cases, that is not necessarily true. For example, a "failed" experiment to find the Higgs Boson at the LHC would in fact be extremely meaningful, as it would dramatically change our basic model of the functional universe.

I haven't read a single thing in this topic directed towards you that's more offensive than your initial comments.

I'm sorry you feel that way, as it certainly is not my intention. What comments are those? Who did I direct these comments towards, specifically?

 

[syllogism]

So, for example, medicine is objectively meaningful because it works whether you happen to believe in medicine or not, and also whether you happen to value human life or not. Regardless of your personal preferences, medicine attempts to extend the lifespan of humans, and it accomplishes that task, even if you hate humanity with every fiber of your being.

This seems to imply that for something to be objectively meaningful, it just has to accomplish something even if what is being accomplished has no "objective value". Is this what you are saying here?

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

Mostly yes. I'm not sure why that is bad.



Not necessarily. All you need to show is that:

1) You have a specific goal
2) That goal is accomplished by following those steps.

So, for example, medicine is objectively meaningful because it works whether you happen to believe in medicine or not, and also whether you happen to value human life or not. Regardless of your personal preferences, medicine attempts to extend the lifespan of humans, and it accomplishes that task, even if you hate humanity with every fiber of your being.



No.



I don't think you understand analogues if this is your mindset.

I don't know what you want exactly then. Your mindset of what you want to call meaningful and how you determine meaningful is extremely narrow. It seems you agree with others you just word/represent it in a different way. People see sports meaningful because of what they gain from it. You see that as separate and only the outcome is meaningful in that case, not the means of achieving it. They just like the whole thing because yes they outcome they want is meaningful (obviously the reason they value it) but they don't find that outcome except in the activities they deem meaningful which is why they classify the means of achieving that outcome also as meaningful.

Again, it's different wording to a concept you all seem to agree on, there's really nothing to argue about. The only argument you get from "sports fans" is when you call it meaningless because they classify it differently from you. I doubt many would if you would have explained the parameters for your judgment. Most people do not think like you do that 99% of activities are meaningless and so when you just so around saying something they find value in is completely meaningless it comes off as condescending. I'm not sure why you wouldn't explain your parameters for judging meaningless when I refuse to believe that you don't think the way you mean "meaningless" is the same as most other people do. That just seems like you're trying to bait people and in your initial statement seemingly attempting to be condescending.

 

[The_Hitcher89]

Is the SuperBowl on the same day every year ike Christmas? Or is it on a certain weekday every year like Easter?

 

[Randolph Freelander]

What's a Super Bowl?

 

[Suairyu]

I don't have to wonder why I'm not enjoying myself. It's because I don't like parties, don't like drinking, and don't like screaming at a TV about groups of people I have never met or have no connection to.

I don't have any connection to the teams in the Superbowl. I live in the UK and the Superbowl is the only American Football event the BBC thinks is important enough to buy the rights to. So it is my sole dose of American Football a year.

I watch it not because I have a connection to anyone on the field, but because I have a huge appreciation of the athletic and strategic ability being demonstrated. There is an intrinsic enjoyment to seeing the mechanics of the game and the players make it all happen.

Same with tennis, boxing, proper football (;p) and the Olympics for me - I don't give a shit who wins, I just want to see something spectacular that inspires awe in me.

 

[Emitan]

Is the SuperBowl on the same day every year ike Christmas? Or is it on a certain weekday every year like Easter?

Always on a Sunday

 

[FOOTE]

Anniversaries triumph over the Superbowl. Sorry brother.

Although, this reminds me that my uncle watched the Superbowl (one of the Cowboys vs Bills games) instead of being in the room with my aunt as his 7th child was born. Happy wife, happy life.

Spoiler

They are very happy, so ehhh.