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[Mengy]

If that is the case, that certain runes are better than others, then that leads to a lessening of diversity of builds since players will naturally flock to the "better" runes and ignore the weaker ones. This is a flaw that I feel will be present in the new system.

And THIS is what scares me the most. I fear that Blizzard is locking rune progression simply because the later runes are better, and the early ones are weaker. And that is what I really don't want, because that is not a system where "every rune is viable and relatively equal". I don't want certain builds being mandatory to play in inferno, I want choices and variety. If all the runes were truly equal then there would be no reason whatsoever to prevent the player from choosing which runes to unlock. None.

 

[forrest]

Well we can hope that Blizzard is internally balancing the rune effects to be more equal in value and effectiveness. It doesn't change the fact that some of the effects themselves will be more desirable just based on what the abilities do. I imagine tons of people playing the demon hunter would rather call down a swarm of demon beasts as opposed to just a volley of arrows.

I think this is what was meant when Bashiok claimed some of the more impressive rune effects will be saved for a late unlock. Not due to the strength but rather just the graphic.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Blizzard's path also limits low level pvp builds substantially.

Blizzard has already almost entirely removed PvP from D3, so this point is substantially moot. I never even knew anyone who did PvP in D2 outside of trying to kill people while their inventories were full so all their stuff falls on the ground and you can steal it. It's funny that Blizzard had to patch that later on so that multiple deaths when inventory was full created multiple corpses of you just to work around this exploit.

And THIS is what scares me the most. I fear that Blizzard is locking rune progression simply because the later runes are better, and the early ones are weaker. And that is what I really don't want, because that is not a system where "every rune is viable and relatively equal". I don't want certain builds being mandatory to play in inferno, I want choices and variety. If all the runes were truly equal then there would be no reason whatsoever to prevent the player from choosing which runes to unlock. None.

There are already way fewer skills and runes combinations than were possible in D2, it's basically inevitable that there will be fewer viable builds in Inferno.

 

[ElyrionX]

And THIS is what scares me the most. I fear that Blizzard is locking rune progression simply because the later runes are better, and the early ones are weaker. And that is what I really don't want, because that is not a system where "every rune is viable and relatively equal". I don't want certain builds being mandatory to play in inferno, I want choices and variety. If all the runes were truly equal then there would be no reason whatsoever to prevent the player from choosing which runes to unlock. None.

I think it's a giant pipe dream to expect variety when it comes to Inferno-viable builds.

 

[ElyrionX]

I remember seeing a video saying that they expect a player to be around 25 at the end of normal and 45-50 after nightmare. I can't find it but I am almost positive that is correct but maybe they have changed that too. Not as relevant to the discussion at hand, but I remember them saying that once you hit 60 you aren't going to be ready for inferno most likely and will need to find better gear.

So level cap is 60 in this game? Any word on the scaling of exp needed to reach max level? Going from 90 to 99 in D2 was a huge grind.

 

[Rentahamster]

So level cap is 60 in this game? Any word on the scaling of exp needed to reach max level? Going from 90 to 99 in D2 was a huge grind.

IIRC, they've stated that the general progression will be something like:

1-30 normal
30-50 nightmare
50-60 hell

So that by the time you beat hell, you're already 60, or pretty close to it.



There will definitely be more possible combinations of skills in D3.

The number of unique skills available to a wizard and sorceress are different, so of course there are going to be more Wizard builds since the number of possible permutations of combinations of skills is vastly larger.

Diablo II Sorceress: 30 unique skills and passives.

Diablo III Wizard: (25 skills x 5 runes) + 15 passives = 140 unique skills and passives

It's just a question of how many of those builds are truly viable and unique.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

It's just a question of how many of those builds are truly viable and unique.

This depends a lot on whether Blizzard intended the runes you get early to be useful later on, or just replaced by the next rune you unlock.

 

[Zzoram]

I think that the best fix to runes is to have many types of them, and then have many degrees of power for those types. That way you can still have run progression without losing variety.

 

[n3ss]

Anyone here still looking for a Beta Key?

 

[Rentahamster]

I know a guy who would love one.

 

[Artanisix]

It's just a question of how many of those builds are truly viable and unique.

One thing I'm excited to see is how Blizzard does their itemization. In Diablo 2, we had builds that would normally suck or impossible, but were made POSSIBLE and AMAZING through the power of items, like Werebear Assassins, Werebears in general :lol (6 shael phase blades represent), Werewolf Barbs, Whirlwind Assassins, Aura Paladins, etc. etc. It'll be really interesting to see if Diablo 3 will introduce wacky items like that.

 

[Zzoram]

Anyone here still looking for a Beta Key?

I am. Are they still even giving them out? This beta is going to be the longest video game beta ever if they're really pushing this game back to 2013.

 

[Rentahamster]

One thing I'm excited to see is how Blizzard does their itemization. In Diablo 2, we had builds that would normally suck or impossible, but were made POSSIBLE and AMAZING through the power of items, like Werebear Assassins, Werebears in general :lol (6 shael phase blades represent), Werewolf Barbs, Whirlwind Assassins, Aura Paladins, etc. etc. It'll be really interesting to see if Diablo 3 will introduce wacky items like that.

They've said that there won't be items that grant one class' skills to a different class. Nevertheless, there are still really cool affixes that can be possible, like +piercing, or +AOE size or "shoots exploding arrows" or "chance to cast 'X' on hit/kill", or "chance to summon pet skeleton on kill" or something.

 

[John_B]

Seriously, is there any reason to argue AGAINST this?

Edit: Also, you might not want to insult people by going "they should just ignore the fanbase because they know better and everyone will be owned". That is rude and it is not an argument. It is dismissive and non-contributive.

People were mixing Diablo 2 into the arguments, and it some times feels like people remember games as how they want to remember them (Diablo 2 is still awesome).

Blizzard has two issues - They want to award you with something every time you level up, and they want to teach you more than a hundred skills through 60 levels. I didn't feel like system wasn't throwing new stuff at me quick enough through the beta, but the low levels do come pretty quickly. Going from level 58 to 59 and just unlocking 1 new rune might not feel so satisfying.

Surely there are feedback from the community that should be listened to. Blizzard wants to know the issues that are affecting the game, but people confuse that with telling Blizzard how they think the game should be.

 

[Scalemail Ted]

Anyone here still looking for a Beta Key?

I am, I'd love to try out the game

 

[John_B]

This depends a lot on whether Blizzard intended the runes you get early to be useful later on, or just replaced by the next rune you unlock.

Magic Missile - Charged Blast
Unlocked at level 6
Increases the damage of Magic Missile to 143% weapon damage as Arcane.

Magic Missile - Seeker
Unlocked at level 35
Missiles track the nearest enemy and their damage is increased to 121% weapon damage as Arcane.

The trade-off does not seem unfair or unbalanced. I would say for Seeker would be much better for killing players, and Charged Blast better for killing monsters.

 

[duckroll]

The question is why one unlocks at lvl6 and one unlocks at lvl35. If they are both balanced to have trade offs and have different functions, why not let a lvl6 player decide which rune enhancement he wants to try out first?

 

[NG28]

Anyone here still looking for a Beta Key?

yes

 

[Rentahamster]

As to the problem of runes being a "binary experience", there are ways to design the game so that runes are always in demand. For example, have runes be an ingredient used in crafting, too. Furthermore, to max out his character, a player under my system needs to eat 400 runes. That's kind of a lot. He won't be using up 400 runes anytime soon.

I'll address some further points of yours in a later post after I think about it for a bit.

Forgot to elaborate on this, but better late than never.

Ok, so as to the "binary experience" of "either you need them or you don't":

I already suggested they be used as an ingredient in crafting, so there's one way to always keep them in demand.

Another way would be to have level 4 runes come in different "flavors", i.e. let level 4 runes drop with random modifiers. This would allow more depth for end-game runes since there's always the possibility of having a better one drop.

And not just plain boring affixes like +damage or +stats or whatever. I'm talking REAL affixes like +# of projectiles, or +%piercing, or + range, or procs explosion, or procs poison nova, or +% to spawn a skeleton to fight for you when killing an enemy with that skill. You know, crazy stuff that will make end-game build diversity explode. They're also still consumable, so if you have a super rare level 4 rune and want to replace it with an even better one, you can't just unsocket the old rune and sell it. You gotta delete it. This keeps inflation down.

Now of course, I wouldn't want the number of random level 4 runes to get out of hand. Then we get back to the inventory bloat problem of the old system.

The affixes would be either

a) somewhat standardized so that they can still stack
b) rare enough that you wouldn't be able to amass that many at once anyway
c) some combination of the above.

 

[Rentahamster]

The question is why one unlocks at lvl6 and one unlocks at lvl35. If they are both balanced to have trade offs and have different functions, why not let a lvl6 player decide which rune enhancement he wants to try out first?

Indeed.

I still don't buy Blizzard's reasoning.

 

[Tremis]

I am also looking for a key.

 

[John_B]

The question is why one unlocks at lvl6 and one unlocks at lvl35. If they are both balanced to have trade offs and have different functions, why not let a lvl6 player decide which rune enhancement he wants to try out first?

You hit level 9 here are 5 new skills and 30 runes? It's a balance between giving the player something new to learn and play with, but not so much it becomes overwhelming.

 

[Rentahamster]

You hit level 9 here are 5 new skills and 30 runes? It's a balance between giving the player something new to learn and play with, but not so much it becomes overwhelming.

I don't think he would have wanted 5 skills and 30 runes unlocked all at once. You're taking his premise to an unreasonable conclusion.

 

[Not a Jellyfish]

I would love a key as well, the wait is unbearable.

Been playing Torchlight, Bastion and League of Legends to hold me over.

 

[V_Arnold]

I don't even know what you are arguing anymore. It seems that at this point you're just going on and on about how while you don't disagree with my point, you don't care about it personally and you feel that how I want to play my games is pointless and stupid and there is no place for it in the market today so you don't care. That's basically what it sounds like, and if that's what you think I really don't see a point in replying seriously to it.

If I did not care, I would not have replied in such length to those posts.
I do not feel that it is pointless. Of course we can simplify every opinion to the point where it seems like that, but feeling that arbitrary restrictions are really in these kind of games because of the sake of it, not because they really are key to enjoying the experience.

"I'm sure there are players who are okay with this, but it is pretty disappointing to me the amount of "streamlining" they are doing, which is in reality simply removing options instead of improving them."

This was the point which "aggroed" me, basically what I am really arguing about (and many others in this thread too) that if you give TONS of options per character and steadily increase all those options across the levelling experience, you are not removing options, you are ADDING options without any restriction. If you remove restrictions and you make all choices possible to play with, you are not stripping people away from freedom, but you are giving it.

There is this devil trap in the mindset where some people go "oh, if everything is possible, than no choice is worth a crap"... well, it worths as much as you enjoy actually killing monsters with it. And that is what Diablo is all about, at the end of the day, for me.

I don't think he would have wanted 5 skills and 30 runes unlocked all at once. You're taking his premise to an unreasonable conclusion.

I am pretty sure he meant that you need to offer ALL runes to lv9-10 players to choose from if we go with that system. Which is a lot of unneccessary staring at a screen without actually knowing how the skill will fare in the gameplay department. It not only could confuse people, it would reintroduce the problem of "messing up" by going for something that does not actually improve on your current build, unless these rune choices are reversible for free, but then why would one need to choose in the first place? o_o

 

[Chemo]

I am definitely looking for a key, though I've been pretty unlucky in this regard thus far! The wait is unbearable... a friend of mine just got in, and I'm so jealous, hah.

 

[Brick]

Anyone here still looking for a Beta Key?

I absolutely am!

 

[jersoc]

I am also looking for a key.

i don't know if anything would come of this, but i would love a key.

 

[duckroll]

You hit level 9 here are 5 new skills and 30 runes? It's a balance between giving the player something new to learn and play with, but not so much it becomes overwhelming.

No. You hit level 3 and you get to choose between Shock Pulse, Spectral Blade, or Electrocute. You hit level 6 and you get to choose between one of the 5 runes for Primary attacks. How is that overwhelming? If you really think that is so overwhelming that it is too complicated for gamers, then I will bow out of this conversation because it would mean I am talking to someone who is not interested in games with any amount of leveling choice at all.

I am pretty sure he meant that you need to offer ALL runes to lv9-10 players to choose from if we go with that system. Which is a lot of unneccessary staring at a screen without actually knowing how the skill will fare in the gameplay department. It not only could confuse people, it would reintroduce the problem of "messing up" by going for something that does not actually improve on your current build, unless these rune choices are reversible for free, but then why would one need to choose in the first place? o_o

Oh please. If you don't even bother to read my posts to see what I am suggesting, then don't bother trying to put words in my mouth. There are 5 runes per skill category. If picking one out of five is "unneccessary staring at a screen" then maybe we should stop playing RPGs entirely and just stick to stuff like Mario Galaxy.

 

[Rentahamster]

If I did not care, I would not have replied in such length to those posts.
I do not feel that it is pointless. Of course we can simplify every opinion to the point where it seems like that, but feeling that arbitrary restrictions are really in these kind of games because of the sake of it, not because they really are key to enjoying the experience.

"I'm sure there are players who are okay with this, but it is pretty disappointing to me the amount of "streamlining" they are doing, which is in reality simply removing options instead of improving them."

This was the point which "aggroed" me, basically what I am really arguing about (and many others in this thread too) that if you give TONS of options per character and steadily increase all those options across the levelling experience, you are not removing options, you are ADDING options without any restriction. If you remove restrictions and you make all choices possible to play with, you are not stripping people away from freedom, but you are giving it.

There is this devil trap in the mindset where some people go "oh, if everything is possible, than no choice is worth a crap"... well, it worths as much as you enjoy actually killing monsters with it. And that is what Diablo is all about, at the end of the day, for me.



I am pretty sure he meant that you need to offer ALL runes to lv9-10 players to choose from if we go with that system. Which is a lot of unneccessary staring at a screen without actually knowing how the skill will fare in the gameplay department. It not only could confuse people, it would reintroduce the problem of "messing up" by going for something that does not actually improve on your current build, unless these rune choices are reversible for free, but then why would one need to choose in the first place? o_o

Could you try and rephrase your thoughts here? I'm reading it over and over, but I'm not quite sure as to what your main point is. Also, I think you are misunderstanding duckroll's position.

 

[V_Arnold]

Let me make a coffee first and then I will come back to this thread. I have got a nice Path of Exile analogy in the making, but deleted the wall of text right now as it made no sense even to myself

 

[duckroll]

Let me make a coffee first and then I will come back to this thread. I have got a nice Path of Exile analogy in the making, but deleted the wall of text right now as it made no sense even to myself

Thank you for protecting us from having to read it. Lol. At least you're considerate!

 

[John_B]

No. You hit level 3 and you get to choose between Shock Pulse, Spectral Blade, or Electrocute. You hit level 6 and you get to choose between one of the 5 runes for Primary attacks. How is that overwhelming? If you really think that is so overwhelming that it is too complicated for gamers, then I will bow out of this conversation because it would mean I am talking to someone who is not interested in games with any amount of leveling choice at all.

Isn't this way just giving larger doses of skills over larger intervals of levels? It has the downside of making some levels rather insignificant.

I'm not saying how Blizzard balanced it is the perfect way for everyone, but it does have some balance between easing players in and giving them something at every level.

How you and others want it to be and how Blizzard currently set it to be is not a huge difference, and (not saying these are your words) does not warrant all this "Blizzard is catering to softcore/console players".

 

[DreamMachine]

Anyone here still looking for a Beta Key?

Been dying to play read up on everything d3, still not in the beta

Totally looking for a key

 

[Fallout-NL]

Isn't this way just giving larger doses of skills over larger intervals of levels? It has the downside of making some levels rather insignificant.

I'm not saying how Blizzard balanced it is the perfect way for everyone, but it does have some balance between easing players in and giving them something at every level.

How you and others want it to be and how Blizzard currently set it to be is not a huge difference, and (not saying these are your words) does not warrant all this "Blizzard is catering to softcore/console players".

Oh they are, that's plain as day.

 

[duckroll]

Isn't this way just giving larger doses of skills over larger intervals of levels? It has the downside of making some levels rather insignificant.

I'm not saying how Blizzard balanced it is the perfect way for everyone, but it does have some balance between easing players in and giving them something at every level.

How you and others want it to be and how Blizzard currently set it to be is not a huge difference, and (not saying these are your words) does not warrant all this "Blizzard is catering to softcore/console players".

Maybe you don't really understand what I'm saying. I'm not suggesting that at a given level they unlock all the skills and let the player choose which one to equip. I'm saying they should give the player a choice of which skill to unlock first (and then you can equip it after that). Same with Runes.

You will still gain something at every level, but you get to make a decision at every level. At lvl3 you pick a Primary Attack to unlock, at lvl4 you pick a Defensive Skill to unlock, at lvl5, you pick a Secondary Attack to unlock, at lvl6 you pick a Primary Attack Rune to unlock, etc.

Right now what Blizzard is doing is building a theme park, and then forcing every player to go through a strict guided tour of all the attractions before letting anyone explore the entire park on their own. What I would prefer would be that players who wish to do so can simply plan their own journey through the park from the start.

 

[Rentahamster]

Right now what Blizzard is doing is building a theme park, and then forcing every player to go through a strict guided tour of all the attractions before letting anyone explore the entire park on their own. What I would prefer would be that players who wish to do so can simply plan their own journey through the park from the start.

And once you finally are able to explore the whole park, the only thing that's left to explore are the roller coasters of doom (Hell and Inferno) because you've already grown too big to ride the magic teacups (Normal).

 

[Svafnir]

I agree that which runes are unlocked should be your decision, but in uh... "aim" of making the game friendly I feel this should become available at say level 10. Just like how WoW does it, that way you have a basic feel of the game and can begin to make simple choices.

I think someone brand new to the diablo franchise and having a huge list in front of them may not work. A lot of my friends who want to play diablo 3 have no idea what "dps" means, I feel we forget not everyone plays as much video games as us.

But in all honesty I never care about leveling up in games anyways, I don't worry about gear or anything on WoW till max level. Anything before max level feels pointless to me, so in the end... Choosing what rune or just having it given to me really makes no difference to me.

 

[Rentahamster]

I think someone brand new to the diablo franchise and having a huge list in front of them may not work. A lot of my friends who want to play diablo 3 have no idea what "dps" means, I feel we forget not everyone plays as much video games as us.

Which is why a newbie mode that has on-rails auto selection and obnoxious tooltips can be enabled for the casuals who need hand holding.

No reason they have to force all of us into doing it.

 

[maharg]

I agree that which runes are unlocked should be your decision, but in uh... "aim" of making the game friendly I feel this should become available at say level 10. Just like how WoW does it, that way you have a basic feel of the game and can begin to make simple choices.

I think someone brand new to the diablo franchise and having a huge list in front of them may not work. A lot of my friends who want to play diablo 3 have no idea what "dps" means, I feel we forget not everyone plays as much video games as us.

But in all honesty I never care about leveling up in games anyways, I don't worry about gear or anything on WoW till max level. Anything before max level feels pointless to me, so in the end... Choosing what rune or just having it given to me really makes no difference to me.

You know, I find this idea that the way Diablo *was* was somehow exclusively catering to spreadsheet limit break obsessed hardcore gamers to be kind of ridiculous.

Ignoring the fact that Diablo 2 is probably among the highest selling PC games ever, and 12 years after release *still* sells well enough to justify having boxed copies in video game stores, do you know what some of the most popular games are right now? Micromanaging farm and animal sims on facebook. People *like* having control over games, even ones that are pick up and play.

Diablo 2 managed to appeal to both types of players by having really low barriers to entry while still having a relatively deep and addictive long game with character investment.

Every now and then people pop in to this thread to say that people who don't want D3 to lose that second part are blinded by nostalgia or a desire to play the game in some horribly hardcore kind of way. But that's bullshit. D2 is a game I *still* play on a semi-regular basis and I've never even had a character over maybe level 55 or so in it. I am, in general, what most people would consider a casual gamer (the most recent two console Zelda games have literally been too long for me to bother finishing), and the handholding aspect of D3 really feels wrong to me.

 

[V_Arnold]

Diablo III is not a theme park with a forced ride. You will constantly KEEP your accumulated skills and decide what to use from a constantly growing repertoire. That is not a forced, guided ride.

Guided tour is "here, use this. Now, you can only use tool 2. Now, here is tool 3. Use it for a while. Now, here is tool 4 - you got it right, you can only use it until tool 5. Good luck!"

This is not a guided tour. This is a constant unlocking of new abilities and new runes in what counts as an early game (a maximum of 30-40 hours until lv60, realistically). At which point everyone will have access to everything.

While Diablo III breaks out of a lot of RPG preconceptions, it keeps one: the highest level characters will always have more options, tools at their disposals than the lower levels have. That is a natural thing in RPG's, and I do not see why suddenly Diablo III should be the one who breaks this, where it already breaks a lot of other conventions.

 

[maharg]

Diablo III is not a theme park with a forced ride. You will constantly KEEP your accumulated skills and decide what to use from a constantly growing repertoire. That is not a forced, guided ride.

Guided is "here, use this. Now, you can only use tool 2. Now, here is tool 3. Use it for a while. Now, here is tool 4 - you got it right, you can only use it until tool 5. Good luck!"

Yes, if you use the narrowest possible definition of the analogy you're entirely right, it's wrong. Fortunately, no one else needs to do that and we can have a meaningful discourse about it.

It's a forced ride because it makes every important choice for you. The only choice left to you is keybindings.

 

[Svafnir]

Getting max level in D3 looks like it will take a lot less time than D2. Inferno and endgame seems to be the main focus of the game.

In all options it will end the same, all skills available at 60. How we get there does not matter too much, sure I would like to pick runes I think sound fun quicker - but whatever. I will probably hit 60 in a few week then spend months running inferno etc with friends, and never think about how I unlocked runes again.

(yes I know some people like leveling up, and will make alts and do that)

Anyways... I feel like blizzard will change it up a bit before release to allow rune unlocks to be chosen. But having thought about it, meh. 60 is all I care about

Disclaimer: This is coming from the guy who leveld a rogue to 85 in wrath of the lich king, and hit level 60 while wearing some level 20 gear, at 85 I still had a level 71 piece! 2 weeks later I was doing heroic plague wing, I am really a endgame only player. So my "sure rune unlock choice would be nice, but makes no difference in end" may not be shared by everyone.

 

[V_Arnold]

Yes, if you use the narrowest possible definition of the analogy you're entirely right, it's wrong. Fortunately, no one else needs to do that and we can have a meaningful discourse about it.

It's a forced ride because it makes every important choice for you. The only choice left to you is keybindings.

I surely do not perceive it that way, sorry.
No choice has been done to me. When leveling up in Diablo III, I constantly have access to more and more tools, from which I can choose what to use in the battlefield - in the gameplay where I spend the most of my time.

I really do not like the idea of getting stuck in the "Blizzard is guiding me, Blizzard is taking away my choices" mindset. The only thing it does is to make yourself bitter when literally every single other game out there does not allow the strongest spell and the coolest stuff to be used by a low level character. For everyone else, the people will enjoy trying out new skills constantly until lv60, when they will have even more options than before, and settle in for the tools that they feel comfortable using in battle, and that is it.

And the most interesting thing is that even those that feel bitter by the no manual skill/rune unlocks will get to D3 lv60 in a matter of weeks, from that point only the sad - and manually made - memory of guidance will exist. Why not embrace this then and just explore what is given to you (which is quite a lot, new abilities/runes every single level, sometimes more than one...) instead of expecting something totally different out of it?

 

[Fallout-NL]

The only choice left to you is keybindings.

And even there, your options are severely limited.

You know, I find this idea that the way Diablo *was* was somehow exclusively catering to spreadsheet limit break obsessed hardcore gamers to be kind of ridiculous.

Ignoring the fact that Diablo 2 is probably among the highest selling PC games ever, and 12 years after release *still* sells well enough to justify having boxed copies in video game stores, do you know what some of the most popular games are right now? Micromanaging farm and animal sims on facebook. People *like* having control over games, even ones that are pick up and play.

Diablo 2 managed to appeal to both types of players by having really low barriers to entry while still having a relatively deep and addictive long game with character investment.

Every now and then people pop in to this thread to say that people who don't want D3 to lose that second part are blinded by nostalgia or a desire to play the game in some horribly hardcore kind of way. But that's bullshit. D2 is a game I *still* play on a semi-regular basis and I've never even had a character over maybe level 55 or so in it. I am, in general, what most people would consider a casual gamer (the most recent two console Zelda games have literally been too long for me to bother finishing), and the handholding aspect of D3 really feels wrong to me.

Yes, that's true. There must be some kind of middle ground here. And this franchise used to walk that line fairly well.

 

[Svafnir]

Oh I just thought of another thing, back when you had to learn new each new spell rank in WoW I had friends that went like 20 levels and never once went back to learn spells.

Or say after grinding levels for a while, would go to town and all a sudden have 7 new skills use the 2 they thought they were cool and never touch the others. It's crazy to me how many people I know at level 85 that never used all there class skills.

So maybe it's beneficial to lock them out, so players can experiment and see things as they go. Instead of ignoring some runes/skills entirely. I know in beta I never used deadly reach, and instead would use crippling wave because from reading tooltips I preferred the aoe/slow effect. However since this last patch, crip wave level was changed and is no longer in beta content, I found myself loving deadly reach and it's rune effect makes it awesome. Something I may have ignored playing otherwise.

Edit: I guess I'm pretty on the fence about the whole thing.

 

[alba]

*Gets into Beta by checking Battle.net*

*starts up beta*

*Gets login error 315300*


FFFUFFFUFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

Anyone know a fix for this. Blizzard is still looking into it but if they are on Blizzard time who knows how long it's gonna take...

Such trolls.

I'm still having this issue and it's driving me crazy

 

[V_Arnold]

Oh I just thought of another thing, back when you had to learn new each new spell rank in WoW I had friends that went like 20 levels and never once went back to learn spells.

Or say after grinding levels for a while, would go to town and all a sudden have 7 new skills use the 2 they thought they were cool and never touch the others. It's crazy to me how many people I know at level 85 that never used all there class skills.

So maybe it's beneficial to lock them out, so players can experiment and see things as they go. Instead of ignoring some runes/skills entirely. I know in beta I never used deadly reach, and instead would use crippling wave because from reading tooltips I preferred the aoe/slow effect. However since this last patch, crip wave level was changed and is no longer in beta content, I found myself loving deadly reach and it's rune effect makes it awesome. Something I may have ignored playing otherwise.

Yep, I agree with you on this, the World of Warcraft experience definitely shows in the development part - even if the development team is not directly responsible for that, as far as I know

 

[duckroll]

I really do not like the idea of getting stuck in the "Blizzard is guiding me, Blizzard is taking away my choices" mindset. The only thing it does is to make yourself bitter when literally every single other game out there does not allow the strongest spell and the coolest stuff to be used by a low level character.

The problem is that you are perceiving that anyone who is saying anything negative is some bitter person who wants to complain for the sake of complaining. It sounds more like you are somehow deathly afraid that if someone has an opinion which is different from yours gets hurt, you will have to suffer some terrible fate of a game that is improved for someone else.

Your example here is totally flawed. If the skills and rune effects in Diablo 3 were designed to be a completely linear experience where later skills are clearly stronger and more powerful than lower level ones, then I think people would simply see it as a very different sort of design, and be more accepting that is it a linear progression where you get stronger skills as you level up.

BUT DIABLO 3 IS NOT DESIGNED LIKE THIS. It is designed such that skills in each category are equal and comparable with each other, and there are trade offs and draw backs for each type of skill. A skill you learn at lvl11 is not better than the one you learn at lvl3, it simply has a different application. Depending on your play style, the lvl11 skill that unlocks right now might actually be less effective. The rune you unlock for your lvl1 skill at lvl26 is not automatically better than the rune you unlock for your lvl1 skill at lvl6 either. It simply offers different effects and properties.

This is why people are frustrated, because the skill design favors equal importance, while the level progression design is guided.

And the most interesting thing is that even those that feel bitter by the no manual skill/rune unlocks will get to D3 lv60 in a matter of weeks, from that point only the sad - and manually made - memory of guidance will exist. Why not embrace this then and just explore what is given to you (which is quite a lot, new abilities/runes every single level, sometimes more than one...) instead of expecting something totally different out of it?

You seem very, very sure of this. Yet unless you are a Blizzard employee who has been playing the full game for months, how can you even make such a definitive statement? You are basically dismissing the opinions of others by hand waving and saying "haters going to hate, whatever you'll buy it and end up loving it".

But without having played anything more than an hour long beta, how can you be so sure that everyone is going to play all the way to lvl60 in a matter of weeks and be fine with how the game is designed? It sounds more like you don't want to dislike the game no matter what, and want others to agree. Yet there are valid complains being discussed here which you don't seem to want to tackle head on.

 

[V_Arnold]

Deathly afraid? That is an interesting thing to interpret from my posts, Duckroll, really. It is also not true.

I will stop arguing with you if that is what you want. I am not planning of winning you or others over, but I am expressing my own opinions on this matter just like everyone else.

Did you not enjoy the beta? Was the gameplay not fun? Seriously.