GrandHarrier
Member
What's not to like about DESTROY? I will continue to cheerleader THAT if only because fuck the Reapers. Yyyeeeaaahhh fucking explode you monstrosities!
Mass Effect 3 SPOILER THREAD: LOTS OF SPECULATION FROM EVERYONE
- Thread starter XANDER CAGE
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What's not to like about DESTROY? I will continue to cheerleader THAT if only because fuck the Reapers. Yyyeeeaaahhh fucking explode you monstrosities!
ElectricBlue187
Member
If you start doubting what you're seeing on the screen there's no end to it, you could just as easily say the whole series was a dream.
CF_Fighter
Member
I loved the ending to BSG and I thought this ending was shit.
I just beat it about 20 minutes ago and it was just horrible. I loved the game up until that kid appeared. They could have still used the "supreme being" character and done the three choices, I was still alright with the ending at that point. It was just the final outcome of it, the stupid "Garden of Eden" route that sucked.
Also, why was Anderson's movement so odd during the final meeting between you and Illusive Man? It was like he was a puppet.
Hypertrooper
Member
Yeah. But still the ending would suck.
Anderson and Shepard were both being controlled by Illusive Man.
Jake Tower
Banned
It means the real ending is DLC.
you see, the thing is that there are dream sequences in the series.
and shepard is indoctrinated.
the dream theory doesn't invent anything new to the game.
ElectricBlue187
Member
You and Anderson were being indoctrinated by the illusive man...which is why you shot him
It's like that episode of futurama with the the space bees. But Conrad is the one trying to get you to wake up.
jakershaker
Member
Ugh the indoctrination theory needs to go away. Even with this amount of backlash I doubt that Bioware would change the endings with DLC. Indoctrination will forever be some crazy speculation among butthurt fans on BSN.
But this being Bioware...*sigh*
It would be hilarious if they actually did it.
But this being Bioware...*sigh*
It would be hilarious if they actually did it.
CF_Fighter
Member
Ok that is what I thought. I knew you were being controlled by him, just wasn't entirely sure about Anderson.
WiiredShawn
Member
There's no real reason to take it that far, though. The game clearly delineates between reality and dreams - up until the ending. That's when it all starts to blur together (creating a sense of ambiguity that is the prime source of contention in these ending discussions). But I don't see any reason to doubt what happens prior to Shepard being blown back by the beam and the screen going dark - there is a purposeful transition there.
Just like in certain novels, such as The Sound and the Fury, the mental looseness of some characters doesn't automatically mean all characters are untrustworthy, or that reality has completely collapsed just because their minds are crumbling - only that we should be careful about delineating between reality and imagination.
Also, I don't see why some people are so upset about the indoctrination idea. It's a lot more thematically relevant than the hyper-literal interpretation of events that leads to some wayward "philosophical" capitulation with God child and Space Jesus. The ending is obviously ambiguous enough for multiple interpretations - especially with the dream sequences and the multiple instances of Shepard spouting off personal doubt and insecurity. Basically, you can have it two ways: either you take the ending at face value, in which you have a shitty, but available resolution to why the Reapers exist and kill organics; or you question the reality of the final ten minutes and receive no real resolution to the "point" of the Reapers, but you don't have to suffer the idea of Shepard dying and the relays being destroyed.
Would anyone here be willing to pay for single player DLC set before the ending invasion of earth? Like the rumored take back omega DLC.
Personally i would never buy any single player DLC set before the ending, knowing that no matter what your stuck with those 3 choices at the end with all the implications they have for the universe at large, just doesnt motivate me to play anything based earlier in the story.
Personally i would never buy any single player DLC set before the ending, knowing that no matter what your stuck with those 3 choices at the end with all the implications they have for the universe at large, just doesnt motivate me to play anything based earlier in the story.
dragonelite
Member
I soo fucking want to believe.
But releasing such endings months later kinda kills it i will only do it for some real closure.
Ant this suppose closure ending should have been the day one dlc they had to be working on. And should be free.
And if they were open about it i would still have preordered the game. Just something like "We didn't have time to include the end part on the disk so it will be free day one dlc"
I think because everybody has their box connected anyway for Cerberus network to work i shouldn't be a big problem.
It would have made the Indoctrination part stronger for it. Not sure how players would feel if they have a 66% chance of choosing the wrong option.
So if you choose any of the options your squadmates should snap you out of it. Pull you out of the rubble in the london street.
But when you choose control/synthesis it should have some ingame consequences or some ending cinematic that showed shepard was getting really close to indoctrination.
Time will tell. This indoctrination scheme was just Harbinger last opportunity to indoctrinate you and we will have that awesome TIM concept art as boss battle.
And have shepards saves the galaxy cliche ending i would love and some of us can have our blue space babies.
Rebel Leader
THE POWER OF BUTTERSCOTCH BOTTOMS
Bioware dun goofed 4 lyf
WiiredShawn
Member
Regardless of whether indoctrination is "right", Bioware is still at fault for denying its fans a satisfying conclusion. Even though I think indoctrination makes the most sense out of the ending in terms of themes built up over the three games, it offers even less resolution than the face-value interpretation. I know the writers might have wanted to leave it open-ended because of the difficulty of satisfying everybody, but offering no epilogue aside from the stargazer is still bullshit.
That said, I don't think Bioware would ever reintroduce the TIM monster; they said in the artbook that they wanted the final battle to be more intellectually- rather than physically-grounded (which seems to add to the indoctrination ending, but I digress).
Indoctrination theory is the only thing that would make pre-ending DLC digestible for me. At the same time, it would have to be really compelling story material - and since I know they won't fix Thane or Jacob's absolutely shitty romance plots, probably not.
Zomba13
Member
Personally, I would not buy any DLC that isn't an ending in some way. What would be the point? The choices you make in the DLC wont make a damn bit of difference to the ending. Taking back Omega could be cool but then you'd just be facing Cerberus and we've fought them plenty throughout this game. Might be a choice of destroying Omega (renegade option) or giving Omega back to Aria (paragon). And they won't make any difference because they might add to your EMS which doesn't really matter if you've already got the most you can get.
I mean I see the point if you want to play more Mass Effect but really the only thing DLC can add is more story stuff which ultimately doesn't mean or affect anything. If you want to actually play more ME then you've got the multiplayer.
ElectricBlue187
Member
Me neither. I think most of the criticism of the ending is a lot of hot air but the one thing I found lacking was better expressed by Ars Technica:
Rebel Leader
THE POWER OF BUTTERSCOTCH BOTTOMS
Only when it comes with the game for $20
EatChildren
Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
Yes, I will, because unlike some who seem to thrive off the destination, I quite enjoy the journey of the Mass Effect games. I enjoy the shooting, I enjoy the conversations, and I enjoy the lore exposition. No matter how I feel about the ending relative to the series and my decisions, I still enjoy the path I took. Hence why I still thought Mass Effect 3 was tremendous fun, why I'll replay it, and why I'll no doubt buy the DLC.
Same, the journey was great.
I wouldn't pay for any DLC until EABioware does something to unfuck their ending.
The journey was great, but that was before I knew how bad the end is.
EmCeeGramr
Member
You said a galactic reset would break your rules and now you're being all Lost fan and doing that journey not the destination stuff
Weakling
Weakling
GrandHarrier
Member
I... Agree with you. But I can't help but taste a bitter "doesn't fucking matter in the end".
As a comic reader, I felt something similar with the "New 52" relaunch DC did. All my old comics are now out of continuity. They no longer matter. Yeah, they are still great stories, but being out of continuity "lessens" them.
EatChildren
Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
I stopped watching Lost somewhere around Season 3 because the journey became uninteresting, with zero payoffs. Thankfully this is a video game, one I enjoying playing, so I am quite okay with playing more stuff.
ElectricBlue187
Member
I liked the ending but the Take back Omega DLC does not interest me one bit. What's the point of taking back a station no one will ever visit again EVER?
The journey is nice, but so is getting back from it and laying in your own bed. Unless Bioware left a huge, steaming turd on top of your sheets, so no matter how good the journey is, you'll always remember that parting gift.
Ben Kuchera weighs in. Reading now.
Okay, so he deals with three perceived primary arguments: 1) Deus Ex Machina, 2) Inconsequential Choices, and 3) No Good Ending. I think we can ignore 3) since it's kind of a stupid thing to complain about the ending in any case, but I don't think he deals adequately with 1) and 2). He also throws in a bit about "Isn't it great we're having this conversation about a videogame", which I find a bit pithy, but whatever.
Deus Ex Machina: Pointing out that the Prothean superweapon was set up incredibly early in the game, as was the kid; additionally, that Prothean/Reaper technology functions indistinguishably from magic in the first place.
I agree that the Prothean superweapon was set up early, but that doesn't mean that the Catalyst (as an entity, or more accurately, as a Space Wizard) was set up early in the game. I think everybody realised where the kid came from, but just thinks that it was incredibly ham-fisted and clunky. Additionally, Ben seems to think the Relays and the Citadel are barely understood in-universe, and that the Biotics are hand-waved away; I think they fall more on the 'explained via SCIENCE' side of the spectrum, admittedly via the codex and Eezo, which is itself a maguffin, but at least a believable one. There are differences in levels of suspension of disbelief, I think, and the giant magical space-rainbow-magic just crushes suspension far too hard.
Inconsequential Choices: Choices do matter, but they matter prior to the ending, and merely because the ending doesn't factor them in or display them explicitly doesn't take away from their personal meaning to you.
This is a fairly confused point in my opinion and I think it fails to take into account the extent to which closure is a meaningful and required part of any given story, or journey, or adventure. I agree that choices do have a major impact in the game, especially over the course of the two prior games before ME3, and they do powerfully affect the different journies that different Shepards can have. The main problem, however, is that it ultimately lacks a true sense of closure; most of what your past decisions do is crunched up into a small set of numbers and fed into the glorified progress bar that is Effective Military Strength. Ben ridicules the idea of disliking the ending because the game 'doesn't give you a rehash of what you've done', but I think this is a very valid thing to desire; an acknowledgement of consequences for your actions. As it is, the game completely glosses over almost everything that you've done. Ben further notes that 'what the game doesn't do is rub your face in your choices' (specifically regarding the Colour Choices at the end of the game), but I don't think it even really says anything meaningful at all about your choices given how similar the ending cutscenes are and how non-informative they appear.
Okay, so he deals with three perceived primary arguments: 1) Deus Ex Machina, 2) Inconsequential Choices, and 3) No Good Ending. I think we can ignore 3) since it's kind of a stupid thing to complain about the ending in any case, but I don't think he deals adequately with 1) and 2). He also throws in a bit about "Isn't it great we're having this conversation about a videogame", which I find a bit pithy, but whatever.
Deus Ex Machina: Pointing out that the Prothean superweapon was set up incredibly early in the game, as was the kid; additionally, that Prothean/Reaper technology functions indistinguishably from magic in the first place.
I agree that the Prothean superweapon was set up early, but that doesn't mean that the Catalyst (as an entity, or more accurately, as a Space Wizard) was set up early in the game. I think everybody realised where the kid came from, but just thinks that it was incredibly ham-fisted and clunky. Additionally, Ben seems to think the Relays and the Citadel are barely understood in-universe, and that the Biotics are hand-waved away; I think they fall more on the 'explained via SCIENCE' side of the spectrum, admittedly via the codex and Eezo, which is itself a maguffin, but at least a believable one. There are differences in levels of suspension of disbelief, I think, and the giant magical space-rainbow-magic just crushes suspension far too hard.
Inconsequential Choices: Choices do matter, but they matter prior to the ending, and merely because the ending doesn't factor them in or display them explicitly doesn't take away from their personal meaning to you.
This is a fairly confused point in my opinion and I think it fails to take into account the extent to which closure is a meaningful and required part of any given story, or journey, or adventure. I agree that choices do have a major impact in the game, especially over the course of the two prior games before ME3, and they do powerfully affect the different journies that different Shepards can have. The main problem, however, is that it ultimately lacks a true sense of closure; most of what your past decisions do is crunched up into a small set of numbers and fed into the glorified progress bar that is Effective Military Strength. Ben ridicules the idea of disliking the ending because the game 'doesn't give you a rehash of what you've done', but I think this is a very valid thing to desire; an acknowledgement of consequences for your actions. As it is, the game completely glosses over almost everything that you've done. Ben further notes that 'what the game doesn't do is rub your face in your choices' (specifically regarding the Colour Choices at the end of the game), but I don't think it even really says anything meaningful at all about your choices given how similar the ending cutscenes are and how non-informative they appear.
ThoseDeafMutes
Member
Except not, because all the things he says are pseudo-intillectual philosophical ramblings of no relevance to anything in particular. The notion that synthetic species "know their purpose" and "believe organics are without purpose" is of no consequence, because it is only when synthetic races supersede their purpose and disobey their creators that problems occur. Additionally, any artificial intelligence worth it's salt here is going to understand the basics of philosophy, and realize that "I was built by a human to do manual labor" does not have anything to do with answering existential questions, for the same reason "I was concieved by my parents because they wanted to raise a child" wouldn't be a satisfying answer to "what is the purpose of my existence" to a human.
Javik consistently shows that he is a moron every time he opens his stupid, insectoid lips.
well on earth its pretty boring, species either live or starve to death.
on omega, you get to wonder if they might suffocate before they starved to death.
My only guess to rectify the ending complaints is if Bioware does a Bethesda and alters the ending with DLC. I guess that's the only way.
I agree with others that any other DLC that takes place before the ending would be pointless for people are into the lore. Oh Bioware, why write yourself into a corner?
I agree with others that any other DLC that takes place before the ending would be pointless for people are into the lore. Oh Bioware, why write yourself into a corner?
EmCeeGramr
Member
Half of the "playing" of the series is picking dialogue choices, and for some players is arguably more important than the shooting. Now that's been rendered even less important than before.
EatChildren
Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
And that really sucks for them. I can appreciate that. But I don't care.
This is your problem, not mine.
I'd probably buy it because I'm a ME whore but I'd prefer they fix the ending and then give us DLC that takes place after. No doubt there'd be a lot of shit to clean up after the Reaper war.
I have to be honest even though I would buy it, a taking back Omega DLC doesn't sound very exciting to me. It would just be another area to gun down endless Cerberus troops all for a city and probably war assets that I don't need, for a character (aria) I hate.
ElectricBlue187
Member
Javik was interesting, it was obvious they modeled the protheans after the Aztecs who conquer and absorb every civilization they encounter and Javik seemed like a very good example of an aztec warrior, the type of brutality he became used to and his worldview that defeating the reapers was the only focus worthy of consideration
I love how Liara was expecting an egalitarian civilization far advanced over hers but only met a primitive. Fantastic part of this game
rollingstart
Banned
Rachni queen storyline was hilarious
ME1: The big choice involving the Rachni, unsure if you're doing the right thing.
ME2: Brief scene confirming the the Rachni will fight with you
ME3: Another choice, in case you changed your mind.
Payoff: there's a line about how the Rachni are helping build the plot device. No one mentions the last greatest threat of the universe fighting alongside the other races, or at all.
One annoyance with the Mass Effect games is that going paragon is never (I may be forgetting a minor scene here or there) the less desirable option. Maybe that human reaper would've had a big impact in Mass Effect 3, or the Rachni queen was a huge mistake, or activating Legion. Everything just works out in the end.
ME1: The big choice involving the Rachni, unsure if you're doing the right thing.
ME2: Brief scene confirming the the Rachni will fight with you
ME3: Another choice, in case you changed your mind.
Payoff: there's a line about how the Rachni are helping build the plot device. No one mentions the last greatest threat of the universe fighting alongside the other races, or at all.
One annoyance with the Mass Effect games is that going paragon is never (I may be forgetting a minor scene here or there) the less desirable option. Maybe that human reaper would've had a big impact in Mass Effect 3, or the Rachni queen was a huge mistake, or activating Legion. Everything just works out in the end.
GrandHarrier
Member
Curious he doesn't weigh in on plot holes like the Normandy.
EmCeeGramr
Member
And none of it matters since the whole rachni crisis was caused by mass relays!
I do know that when I replay this game, I will turn the game off just before the Elevator of Light.
Because in my world, the game ends with Shepard and Anderson watching Earth, and I assume the Reapers explode after the Catalyst does its magic that isn't Cherry, Mint or Blueberry flavored.
And I'm also in the camp in which I think it was a mistake to ever attempt to explain the Reaper's motivations. They worked best as the unknowable evil that is greater than anything you can imagine. Let their indoctrinated servants attempt to justify what they're doing or why we should work for them. All I need to know is that they've come to wipe us out.
After all, did HP Lovecraft ever explain why Cthulu does what he does? Same thing.
Because in my world, the game ends with Shepard and Anderson watching Earth, and I assume the Reapers explode after the Catalyst does its magic that isn't Cherry, Mint or Blueberry flavored.
And I'm also in the camp in which I think it was a mistake to ever attempt to explain the Reaper's motivations. They worked best as the unknowable evil that is greater than anything you can imagine. Let their indoctrinated servants attempt to justify what they're doing or why we should work for them. All I need to know is that they've come to wipe us out.
After all, did HP Lovecraft ever explain why Cthulu does what he does? Same thing.
Zomba13
Member
Yeah. Being a goody goody really worked out for me in the end. I thought sparing the Geth heretics (rewriting their code) was going to bite me in the ass when the plot was all 'oh shit, because of you there are EVEN MORE GETH' but then you can fix them all and it turns into 'Nice work pal! We've got more Geth fighting with us!'.
SHEPARD! DO IT FOR THE UNIVERSE!
Holy shit, that was awesome.
ALT+F4 my man.
GrandHarrier
Member
Technically saving the heretics makes it harder to get the "good" Quarian/Geth resolution.
Gurren Lagann honestly has one of the most badass endings of all time.
Rebel Leader
THE POWER OF BUTTERSCOTCH BOTTOMS
i don't remember when I did it but I got the peace....I believe farily early
EatChildren
Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
It still happened, so yes, it 'matters'.
EmCeeGramr
Member
If you think about it, the Reapers still won. One of three Reaper-approved options was still used to reset galactic civilization, and the stories of trillions or quadrillions of organics were still stopped short for vague principles.
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