The Catalyst's space magic turned him into a deity. What's not to get about that? There's no indoctrination, just ascension into the celestial.
I always viewed Harbinger as a scout.
Mass Effect 3 SPOILER THREAD: LOTS OF SPECULATION FROM EVERYONE
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Apophenia Overload
Member
He didn't have to bang one of the Normandy crew. Or wait, he totally could, even if she was just a background crew member. If Jacob could hook up with some random scientist, Joker could find love from someone else besides a machine.
I just find it dumb that their relationship in ME 2 is one of building interspecies trust and overcoming prejudice to yet another shoehorned romance. What was an inspiring story about bridging xenophobia ends up as an excuse for them to bone, which just feels cheap. Why, Joker? Are you that lonely?!?
Canonically he is a loser with too much porn so I guess it does fit his character. I still don't like how they turned EDI into an anime-type character. "I have the body of a hottie but feelings are new to me. Teach me what you call... love."
BabeSlayer
Member
War assets?......Ya ok nothing..it is entertaining though...
Could have been fantastic...instead it is great bordering on good much like the life cycle of this once beloved series.....
That's true. But I have a feeling that this will be a series that I'll be replaying, and if I can get a better ending for that, I'll take it.
Rebel Leader
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I saved big Ben with out MP so HA
Glad I never heard of them
EatChildren
Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
The Last Hours app, insight into the development process, sent people into a rage, because it refuted their deluded hopes of the indoctrination theory, and because it showed Walters and Hudson's intentions for the end game and the franchise as a whole. Or more specifically, they didn't want to answer any questions or give any closure and wanted to end on a whole bunch of whimsical, vague bullshit.
It's more like a plague on the world.
Karak
Member
Thanks for being my test participants, everyone. I knew I wasn't going to be onboard until it was 20$ after ME2.
I...never said it was. I'm just explaining my own personal perceptive of it. If you value the author's intentions so highly that they override any interpretation that you or any other fan put forth, do so. But I evaluate the product itself. If a fan's interpretation of it is more in line with the product than the author's, then I will go with the fan's. The only advantage of siding with the author is that you have a better idea of what will come next, because they are the ones making the next installment. You can do what you want. I'm going with what works.
PsychoSoldier
Banned
I did, emphasis on did.
Shake Appeal
Member
Robot Pants
Member
Here's why the indoctrination theory doesn't make sense.
What purpose does it serve the Reapers to have Shepard indoctrinated? Do you honestly think they needed him to get the job done? That they needed him to get the galaxy in one central location? They had that. Called the Citadel. They could have taken the Citadel in 20 minutes if they wanted, and with it cut off the mass relays and everyone would have been fucked.
But we are supposed to believe they were leading Shepard to do what he did all this time? Come on. That's a big stretch even for BioWare.
And how did he get indoctrinated? He was on a derelict Reaper for about 15 minutes.
What purpose does it serve the Reapers to have Shepard indoctrinated? Do you honestly think they needed him to get the job done? That they needed him to get the galaxy in one central location? They had that. Called the Citadel. They could have taken the Citadel in 20 minutes if they wanted, and with it cut off the mass relays and everyone would have been fucked.
But we are supposed to believe they were leading Shepard to do what he did all this time? Come on. That's a big stretch even for BioWare.
And how did he get indoctrinated? He was on a derelict Reaper for about 15 minutes.
She was near Object Rho for several hours.
I think an expansion pack is out of the question since the last one BW released was Awakening, wasn't it? After that it's been all about DLC.
However, since Harbinger's story gets stranded on that DLC, it kinda makes it pointless.
I've never played those games because I know nothing about D&D, but I really want to play them.
That DLC actually had one of the most fun battles in the game. I never care for achievement, but when I outlasted all of the soldiers, and the little icon poped-up, I felt good.
However, since Harbinger's story gets stranded on that DLC, it kinda makes it pointless.
Rebel Leader
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Dude.. OT died.. get over it
Latvian Hitman
Member
Sorry, this makes no sense to me. The theory hinges completely on Bioware's intent. It's Bioware's game. If they never intended for the ending of the game to be what the indoctrination theory says it is, then the theory is incorrect. Period. Plain and simple.
Brawndo Addict
Banned
I edited in some further explanation before you posted which I think puts us on the same relative footing, though I would still disagree on an academic level. EDIT: Actually, in response to your edits, it's clear we are not in relative agreement. That's perfectly fine, it just means we're proponents of two different theories of literary criticism. Agree to disagree basically.
The common argument is that the Catalyst merely made the relays explode in a non-lethal fashion due to Space Magic.
Still doesn't change how the galaxy is effectively screwed due to a lack of fuel and resources.
Dragon Age Origins Lead designer speaks about endings (former bioware employee)
http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/10087809
Interesting read very favorable for the fans
http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/10087809
Interesting read very favorable for the fans
Pollux
Member
It's just so fucking depressing to see how far Bioware has fallen.
EatChildren
Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
No. The indoctrination theory mostly revolves around stopping Shepard from reaching the Citadel to activate the Catalyst. Everything in the game is supposed to have 'happened' until Harbinger's laser knocks her down, causing the entire Citadel sequence to be a hallucination.
No, it doesn't really make any sense and yes it is reaching.
Complistic
Member
Object rho in the arrival dlc. He was in contact with that thing for a few days. And that other stuff sounds like more of a general plot hole and not one against the indoctrination theory.
Why do people always pick on me for simple comments? First that guy who got banned, now you.
Zomba13
Member
The ability to play as a Salarian.
Shake Appeal
Member
Probably the most perfect trilogy (well, two games and a goliath expansion pack) any videogame developer has put out. However Mass Effect's legacy shakes out, Bioware's should be secure.
Feel the matrix sequels (which are layered with meaning) have the main problem in the the "exterior" movies aren't that great. Like all the thought was put into it's "interiors." I do have an appreciation for matrix sequels but it wasn't till I took philosophy in college.
I think the indoctrination theory is cool as heck but I can say that the Mass effect 3 ending should have worked better at the "exterior" level.
Until she chooses to break the bonds of indoctrination by fighting back by choosing to destroy the reapers!!
And when she wakes up!!!
the reapers are actually destroyed
but
i
pants
Apophenia Overload
Member
I agree the Indoctrination theory is reaching. However, it may be Bioware's way out- they can take credit that for it and claim it was their plan all along, and retcon the ending. Just do it Fallout 3: Broken Steel style with a new expansion pack/DLC. Easy peasy.
PsychoSoldier
Banned
Based on what your co-caster said, I think it's likely to piss him off too.
Rebel Leader
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It'll still piss off a lot of people
Brawndo Addict
Banned
Ah, I didn't even notice the point when we eclipsed the OT. I was hoping for some clever posts and quips. The only one I remember was that this is actually the real OT, what twist, you're indoctrinated, etc.
Apophenia Overload
Member
Honestly, the Indoctrination theory is looking at evidence that simply isn't there. It is literally a case of apophenia overload.
EmCeeGramr
Member
Pick which is the funnier outcome of the "theory"
A) Shepard destroys the Reapers in his/her mind and then falls back to Earth and survives un-burnt-to-a-crisp
B) Shepard just shook off indoctrination and woke up in London and then ??? because we never see he/she actually going to the Crucible and stopping TIM and the Reapers
I doubt they'd go as far as claiming that was the 'plan all along'... but yeah, I would accept some kind of 'true' ending DLC. It had better be free, or that would be the end of the BSN as we know it (a bad thing?).
It's a shame that 99% of ME3 was such a beautiful game. It was everything the fans asked for, and then BioWare just set fire to it.
Is there a guide for people who know nothing about DD?
People are indoctrinated into believing there's a better explanation.
It would be great if s/he wakes and goes to the Citadel where the whole thing happens exactly as the game.
They have far more people pissed off and disenfranchised as it stands currently.
gaheris
Member
my thoughts upon finishing the game were "so....they just destroyed the universe I love?"
I don't complain about the way people take their stories too much. I generally just enjoy the journey for what it is, and don't get me wrong I absolutely love Mass Effect 3, however all that being said I am disappointing in the ending just like so many others.
It isn't even that I am upset that the reapers had some purpose that was circular logic at best. It was that the entire universe was changed in the blink of an eye. It was huge huge build up, pulling forces together, setting aside old grudges to...have everything not really matter because well...everything changed.
I guess it just irritates me that there wont be any future ME games, books, movies, comics, etc, because well if that stays as cannon than that universe is straight up gone.
There was just so much they could have done, so many different directions they could have taken it. Just sad to see such a promising universe destroyed in such a manner. I still love bioware, I still will play their games, I still support them creating more games. I just as a fan of the series am sad to see such a promising universe be so completely obliterated.
My hope is that the success of the ME franchise will spur other developers to tackle sci-fi opera type settings, and result in us having the Star Trek/Star Wars experience of this generation. Hopefully someone (and maybe it will be bioware) will create something where our choices are not just window dressing, where the characters are all memorable, and with so many story arches that it will live on like some of the other sci fi greats of yesteryear.
Now I'm going to play some more Mass Effect
Totally agree with you on what they did to the Mass Effect Universe.
Rebel Leader
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Ahhhh, too much logic.
I think we have enough evidence to establish that logic cannot be applied to Mass Effect 3.
Well, even if I disagreed entirely with what you said, it really is a matter of pure opinion. You can continue believing that and I can continue believing what I believe.
But I do agree that we OUGHT to take the things you mentioned into consideration. But what happens when the author's opinion comes into direct conflict with what happens with the story? Do you let the author ruin the story, or do you choose to interpret it in such a way that the story quality remains intact. So, yes, I do think those things should be taken into consideration when analyzing the story, but that doesn't mean they are the final word on it by a long shot. The work itself is more important than the author. So, when needed, what the author says can be disregarded.
Besides, he never said "This is the correct interpretation" He just said he didn't intend it that way, which doesn't even come into conflict with the indoctrination theory. It just says that the way it happened was an accident rather than a conscious effort.
In what way does it hinge on biowares intent? The future content of the theory hinges on their intent. The game we have does not.
And it's always the "it's all a dream // hallucination" etc. theory when fans want a better explanation. It's freshman year introduction to philosophy levels of profundity.
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