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[Dreams-Visions]

The problem isn't the law. It's the police. Last I read, that law is null and void if the person claiming self defense was the aggressor. There is no doubt in the 911 tape, witnesses and what not that Zimmerman *WAS* the aggressor. Without HIS direct aggressive action there could NOT have been any confrontation.

http://statutes.laws.com/florida/TitleXLVI/chapter776

with special attention here:

776.041 Use of force by aggressor.

The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:

(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or

(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:

(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or

(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.​

No way he will get to claim self-defense in a trial. No way in hell. Justified use of force defense will NOT be available to him.

 

[levious]

I think he intended to inflict bodily harm on him, and figured he could shoot him if he felt compelled to/deemed it necessary (otherwise he wouldn't have left the vehicle). I think the attitude he left the call with, the pursuit and cornering of a running soon-to-be-victim, then unloading on him despite the screams for help.

I think he left the car feeling shooting him could be a reasonable and good option, believing he was following a criminal that he could finally bring to justice (to make up for all the ones who get away).

I think there is a good argument for First Degree. I will accept that Second Degree would be easier to establish.

I believe that's more of a standard for common-law murder. In most US jurisdictions, I doubt this could be considered higher than second-degree.

 

[Korey]

Not only that, but from the phone calls you can hear Trayvon plead for his life before he was killed right? Which implies that Zimmerman was not in danger at the moment of the shooting. Basically parts 2a and 2b of the above. He was not in imminent danger nor did he withdraw in good faith.


Anyways, is this new? What's a grand jury?

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/21/u...y-in-killing-of-trayvon-martin.html?_r=1&hp#h

Grand Jury in Florida Will Examine Death of Teenager

MIAMI — A grand jury will hear evidence next month in the fatal shooting of an unarmed black Florida teenager by a neighborhood watch volunteer, the state attorney’s office for Brevard and Seminole Counties announced on Tuesday.

The shooting last month of the teenager, Trayvon Martin, which has set off a national outcry, is also being investigated by the Justice Department.

On Tuesday, the state attorney for Brevard and Seminole, Norman R. Wolfinger, released a statement saying that a Seminole grand jury would examine the episode beginning on April 10. He asked for the public’s patience while law enforcement officials continue to investigate.

“I share in the desire of the family and the community to accurately collect and evaluate all the facts surrounding the tragic death of Trayvon Martin,” Mr. Wolfinger’s statement said. “I respectfully request that the public remain patient as this process continues forward.”

Trayvon, 17, was shot as he was walking to the home of his father’s girlfriend from a convenience store in Sanford, just north of Orlando, on Feb. 26. George Zimmerman, 28, the neighborhood watch volunteer who killed Trayvon, has told the police that he shot the teenager in self-defense.

On Monday night, the Justice Department said its Civil Rights Division, in conjunction with the Federal Bureau of Investigation, would investigate Trayvon’s death.

“The department will conduct a thorough and independent review of all of the evidence and take appropriate action at the conclusion of the investigation,” Xochitl Hinojosa, a Justice Department spokeswoman, said in a statement. “The department also is providing assistance to and cooperating with the state officials in their investigation into the incident.”

The Justice Department said it was also dispatching members of its Community Relations Service to Sanford to try to defuse tensions. The Rev. Al Sharpton was scheduled to attend a town-hall-style meeting in Sanford on Tuesday evening.

The announcement of the grand jury inquiry and the federal investigation came after demonstrations outside the Seminole County courthouse by college students and a growing number of complaints that the Sanford Police Department had mishandled the case. By Tuesday morning, more than 500,000 people had signed an online petition seeking the prosecution of Mr. Zimmerman.

The shooting has also raised new questions about Florida’s “Stand Your Ground” law, which was approved in 2005. The law does not require a person who is threatened to retreat in order to claim self-defense, and Mr. Zimmerman has claimed he fired his weapon while defending himself.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

I believe that's more of a standard for common-law murder. In most US jurisdictions, I doubt this could be considered higher than second-degree.

I see.

25-life works for me, so I'm fine with Second.

Not only that, but from the phone calls you can hear Trayvon plead for his life before he was killed right? Which implies that Zimmerman was not in danger at the moment of the shooting. Basically parts 2a and 2b of the above. He was not in imminent danger nor did he withdraw in good faith.


Anyways, is this new? What's a grand jury?

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/21/u...y-in-killing-of-trayvon-martin.html?_r=1&hp#h

yes, that's today's development. State moving swiftly.

 

[empty vessel]

What's a grand jury?

It's how ham sandwiches get indicted.

Or where cases go to get whitewashed.

Depending on the whim of the prosecutor.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

http://statutes.laws.com/florida/TitleXLVI/chapter776

with special attention here:

776.041 Use of force by aggressor.

The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:

(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or

(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:

(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or

(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.​

No way he will get to claim self-defense in a trial. No way in hell. Justified use of force defense will NOT be available to him.

That right there is the problem. Every reasonable means would have been:

-Not to approach him in the first place
-Don't enter into physical range if you wanted to speak to him
-Don't get out of your car
-Withdraw when the conversation got heated.
-Obey the 911 operator to NOT follow him.



On a personal note: I'm very angry at Florida right now. Growing up I was always told by my parents that I have to be "careful" around white people that didn't know me because I'm black and "many just see the color of your skin and not *you*" and blah blah blah. I always HATED when my parents would say that because it just felt fucking unfair as shit. I felt I was just like everyone else. But god damn if it didn't turn out to be true as I got older. It's a god damn shame it cost this kid his life just for walking while black.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

I see.

25-life works for me, so I'm fine with Second.



yes, that's today's development. State moving swiftly.

Can't Zimmerman just leave the country right now if he wanted to and drop off the grid?

 

[jorma]

It's how ham sandwiches get indicted.

Could you please elaborate, this sounds intriguing..

 

[empty vessel]

Could you please elaborate, this sounds intriguing..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ham_sandwich#Cultural_impact

A grand jury is an entirely secret proceeding in which a prosecutor tries to persuade (or, in rare cases, fail to persuade) a citizen panel to indict somebody, i.e., institute formal criminal proceedings against them. Neither the defendant nor any defense counsel can have any input into the proceeding, e.g., questioning witnesses, etc.. In fact, no outside counsel other than a prosecutor is even allowed to observe the proceeding. Basically, it's a free for all for the prosecutor (no evidentiary rules apply), and the standard for indictment is low (probable cause in Florida).

 

[K.Jack]

According to Chris Tutko, the director of the National Neighborhood Watch program, there are about 22,000 registered watch groups nationwide, and Zimmerman was not part of a registered group, which police were not aware of at the time of the incident.

Okay this shit is getting more fucking ridiculous by the day.

 

[KHarvey16]

http://statutes.laws.com/florida/TitleXLVI/chapter776

with special attention here:

776.041 Use of force by aggressor.

The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:

(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or

(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:

(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or

(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.​

No way he will get to claim self-defense in a trial. No way in hell. Justified use of force defense will NOT be available to him.

2a and 2b make it more difficult to get a pre-trial motion barring the use of a self defense defense. If the defense's argument includes the voice on the 911 tapes belonging to Zimmerman(which I'm sure it will if there is a trial) that may actually satisfy one of those exceptions.

 

[David Incorporated Esq.]

2a and 2b make it more difficult to get a pre-trial motion barring the use of a self defense defense. If the defense's argument includes the voice on the 911 tapes belonging to Zimmerman(which I'm sure it will if there is a trial) that may actually satisfy one of those exceptions.

It's possible, but the way it plays out on the tape--"*pained cries for help* BANG *silence*" will be hard to play off as Zimmerman's cries.

 

[KHarvey16]

It's possible, but the way it plays out on the tape--"*pained cries for help* BANG *silence*" will be hard to play off as Zimmerman's cries.

I'm sure both sides will have experts at the ready. If the judge feels the question is better answered during the trial I think it's unlikely the pre trial motion would be granted.

 

[sangreal]

No way he will get to claim self-defense in a trial. No way in hell. Justified use of force defense will NOT be available to him.

I don't think it is even important whether or not he will be able to make that claim at trial. The point is that it is a defense available at trial. That is why we have trials. It shouldn't be for the police to determine.

 

[jorma]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ham_sandwich#Cultural_impact

A grand jury is an entirely secret proceeding in which a prosecutor tries to persuade (or, in rare cases, fail to persuade) a citizen panel to indict somebody, i.e., institute formal criminal proceedings against them. Neither the defendant nor any defense counsel can have any input into the proceeding, e.g., questioning witnesses, etc.. In fact, no outside counsel other than a prosecutor is even allowed to observe the proceeding. Basically, it's a free for all for the prosecutor (no evidentiary rules apply), and the standard for indictment is low (probable cause in Florida).

Huh ok. Well i figure there wont be a whitewash since (as i understand it) public outcry demanding satisfaction is the reason for this grand jury and a secret "no indictment" verdict would hardly satisfy anyone.

 

[GhaleonEB]

Justice department and FBI getting involved. I do hope justice is done. That entire POS police department should be turned upside down.

I don't think it is even important whether or not he will be able to make that claim at trial. The point is that it is a defense available at trial. That is why we have trials. It shouldn't be for the police to determine.

I'm anxious to see Zimmerman brought to justice, but I'm just as anxious to see if the feds will tackle the clearly broken police department. Their handling of the case is absurd.

 

[Suikoguy]

Thankfully not many states use a Grand Jury anymore...
I think the system has some merit, assuming someone was there to act on behalf of the person being indicted. As it stands now...

 

[empty vessel]

Thankfully not many states use a Grand Jury anymore...
I think the system has some merit, assuming someone was there to act on behalf of the person being indicted. As it stands now...

Well, the truth is that it affords more protection than the mere filing of a criminal complaint by law enforcement or a district attorney, decisions left up to the judgment of a single person. It's just that it's really not that hard for a prosecutor to obtain an indictment from a grand jury.

 

[Haint]

Zimmerman's father is white and his mother is Hispanic. Why is this important though? I think you were flamed because you brought up some gang banger nonsense that had nothing to do with this story.

It's important because the overwhelming sentiment early on was that Zimmerman was some (presumed) white bigot out to purge his neighborhood of black hoodlums. It was also implied several times that the (inferred racist) police failed to arrest and let the case slide because they were supposedly siding with a white guy in the death of the black guy. This guy is clearly Hispanic, unless you want to label President Obama white as well just because it happens to suite someone's (or the media's) racism angle. Unfortunate as this is to say, I do have to wonder if it were obvious from the get go that this were a Hispanic on black case--whether the story would have blown up as it did. Racism was the only angle most of the early articles approached it from, with many referring to or implying Zimmerman was white. This is not to say that minority on minority racism doesn't matter or doesn't exist (it's probably more prevalent and a bigger issue than white on minority to be honest), but the media generally doesn't care about it--or rather doesn't care about it as much as the over sensationalized white on minority pieces (I don't think anyone being honest with themselves would try to argue otherwise). The fact that he has apparently had a history of accosting a variety of people (not just blacks) also further muddies the waters, suggesting that the early pile on the racist bandwagon was either dead wrong, or did not take the clear cut, black and white path (pun intended) people were hoping for back when details were still sketchy.

 

[spermatic cord]

Anyone see this? Martin was running AWAY from Zimmerman. I'm sure we all suspected it but this really confirms it:

"He said this man was watching him, so he put his hoodie on. He said he lost the man," the girl told ABC News. "I asked Trayvon to run, and he said he was going to walk fast. I told him to run but he said he was not going to run."

According to accounts gleaned from 911 audio recordings made the night of the killing and the teenage girl's statements, Martin eventually did run. But Zimmerman wasn't far behind, and soon the two would be face to face. Zimmerman, the self-appointed captain of the neighborhood watch, was armed with a 9mm pistol. Trayvon had little more than a bag of candy in his pocket.

"Trayvon said, 'What are you following me for?' and the man said, 'What are you doing here?' Next thing I hear is somebody pushing, and somebody pushed Trayvon because the headset just fell. I called him again and he didn't answer the phone."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/20/trayvon-martin-final-moments_n_1366697.html?ref=topbar

 

[SirButterstick]

This is why people should need to pass some form of IQ test if they want to own a firearm. This story is really heartbreaking.

 

[Cuban Legend]

Anyone see this? Martin was running AWAY from Zimmerman. I'm sure we all suspected it but this really confirms it:



http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/20/trayvon-martin-final-moments_n_1366697.html?ref=topbar

Well then, with this I hope they throw the book at him. Murder 1, Life without parole and no less than that. That'll learn em.

 

[Korey]

Anyone see this? Martin was running AWAY from Zimmerman. I'm sure we all suspected it but this really confirms it:



http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/20/trayvon-martin-final-moments_n_1366697.html?ref=topbar

Boom.

I mean, I don't think this case could be any more clear. Jesus.

 

[Foxy Fox 39]

Well then, with this I hope they throw the book at him. Murder 1, Life without parole and no less than that. That'll learn em.

Interesting. I was doubtful initially but they say Treyvons phone records show he was on the phone with the girl.

Every new piece of info just shows how shady the PD is down there.

 

[JCX]

The more that is revealed, the more insane it is that Zimmerman has not been arrested yet. Dude was raging and looking to pick a fight, and he didn't care about anything else.

 

[DY_nasty]

It's important because the overwhelming sentiment early on was that Zimmerman was some (presumed) white bigot out to purge his neighborhood of black hoodlums. It was also implied several times that the (inferred racist) police failed to arrest and let the case slide because they were supposedly siding with a white guy in the death of the black guy. This guy is clearly Hispanic, unless you want to label President Obama white as well just because it happens to suite someone's (or the media's) racism angle. Unfortunate as this is to say, I do have to wonder if it were obvious from the get go that this were a Hispanic on black case--whether the story would have blown up as it did. Racism was the only angle most of the early articles approached it from, with many referring to or implying Zimmerman was white. This is not to say that minority on minority racism doesn't matter or doesn't exist (it's probably more prevalent and a bigger issue than white on minority to be honest), but the media generally doesn't care about it--or rather doesn't care about it as much as the over sensationalized white on minority pieces (I don't think anyone being honest with themselves would try to argue otherwise). The fact that he has apparently had a history of accosting a variety of people (not just blacks) also further muddies the waters, suggesting that the early pile on the racist bandwagon was either dead wrong, or did not take the clear cut, black and white path (pun intended) people were hoping for back when details were still sketchy.

There's a massive perception issue that you're missing. It's not so much the (obvious) "I'm a minority too! I have tons of minority friends and family!" as it is the fact that he doesn't have the strong features of a hispanic male. He is, and has probably always been, perceived as "white". There are tons of people who have hispanic heritage that are labeled as white and identify themselves as white.

If you're black - you're black. And what comes with being black? or any readily and easily identifiable minority? The stereotyping and casual racism that comes along with it.

Nothing has changed because Zimmerman has identified himself as a minority.

 

[devildog820]

Interesting. I was doubtful initially but they say Treyvons phone records show he was on the phone with the girl.

Every new piece of info just shows how shady the PD is down there.

Sanford is shady as all hell. It's in Central Florida and that area is fairly racist once you get outside of Orlando/Tampa. Those gated communities contain a lot of donors, connected people, influential people, etc. Plus, I would bet $10 that the police were lazy and not wanted to disrupt the town over an outsider who also happened to be black.

 

[B!TCH]

Anyone see this? Martin was running AWAY from Zimmerman. I'm sure we all suspected it but this really confirms it:



http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/20/trayvon-martin-final-moments_n_1366697.html?ref=topbar

Who are the posters here still defending Zimmerman?

Reallink
Enron

Who else?

 

[Zoe]

Okay this shit is getting more fucking ridiculous by the day.

I wouldn't say that's ridiculous. There are only 22,000 registered groups out of how many communities in the entire country?

A Neighborhood Watch isn't a legal authority no matter how "official" it is.

 

[Aeonin]

There's a massive perception issue that you're missing. It's not so much the (obvious) "I'm a minority too! I have tons of minority friends and family!" as it is the fact that he doesn't have the strong features of a hispanic male. He is, and has probably always been, perceived as "white". There are tons of people who have hispanic heritage that are labeled as white and identify themselves as white.

If you're black - you're black. And what comes with being black? or any readily and easily identifiable minority? The stereotyping and casual racism that comes along with it.

Nothing has changed because Zimmerman has identified himself as a minority.

Being a white-looking hispanic like you described myself - I can tell you for sure that Zimmerman looks hella hispanic and not white at all really.

But I agree, nothing has changed because of the identification.

 

[levious]

There's a massive perception issue that you're missing. It's not so much the (obvious) "I'm a minority too! I have tons of minority friends and family!" as it is the fact that he doesn't have the strong features of a hispanic male. He is, and has probably always been, perceived as "white". There are tons of people who have hispanic heritage that are labeled as white and identify themselves as white.

If you're black - you're black. And what comes with being black? or any readily and easily identifiable minority? The stereotyping and casual racism that comes along with it.

Nothing has changed because Zimmerman has identified himself as a minority.

a number of hispanics consider themselves racially white, and not only those who have direct european lineage. Like this social security form I recently filled out. Asked me (optional) for an ethnicity and race. There was no option in the race section that made sense for me. I could have selected white and American Indian I suppose, but american indian implies something more specific than my mesoamerican lineage.

 

[Particle Physicist]

It's important because the overwhelming sentiment early on was that Zimmerman was some (presumed) white bigot out to purge his neighborhood of black hoodlums. It was also implied several times that the (inferred racist) police failed to arrest and let the case slide because they were supposedly siding with a white guy in the death of the black guy. This guy is clearly Hispanic, unless you want to label President Obama white as well just because it happens to suite someone's (or the media's) racism angle. Unfortunate as this is to say, I do have to wonder if it were obvious from the get go that this were a Hispanic on black case--whether the story would have blown up as it did. Racism was the only angle most of the early articles approached it from, with many referring to or implying Zimmerman was white. This is not to say that minority on minority racism doesn't matter or doesn't exist (it's probably more prevalent and a bigger issue than white on minority to be honest), but the media generally doesn't care about it--or rather doesn't care about it as much as the over sensationalized white on minority pieces (I don't think anyone being honest with themselves would try to argue otherwise). The fact that he has apparently had a history of accosting a variety of people (not just blacks) also further muddies the waters, suggesting that the early pile on the racist bandwagon was either dead wrong, or did not take the clear cut, black and white path (pun intended) people were hoping for back when details were still sketchy.

FYI, as a hispanic that grew up in Florida, racism is pretty rampant (i.e. hispanics not liking black people just because they are black). I tended to see it more from older Cuban americans though.

 

[Foxy Fox 39]

Why is being Hispanic considered as an indicator to whether or not he's racist against blacks?

 

[Particle Physicist]

Why is being Hispanic considered as an indicator to whether or not he's racist against blacks?

It shouldn't matter at all, but some people have it in their minds that one minority can't really be racist against another minority.

 

[CrazyDude]

Why is being Hispanic considered as an indicator to whether or not he's racist against blacks?

Because only white people can be racist.

 

[marathonfool]

The word is prejudice. Zimmerman exhibited racial prejudice no matter how he identifies himself. The Sanford police department is good old institutional racism.

 

[Zoe]

While Zimmerman is clearly a racist, I don't think it's fair to say that the police department's handling of this specific incident is racist. There's something fishy in their relation to Zimmerman.

 

[Haint]

There's a massive perception issue that you're missing. It's not so much the (obvious) "I'm a minority too! I have tons of minority friends and family!" as it is the fact that he doesn't have the strong features of a hispanic male. He is, and has probably always been, perceived as "white". There are tons of people who have hispanic heritage that are labeled as white and identify themselves as white.

If you're black - you're black. And what comes with being black? or any readily and easily identifiable minority? The stereotyping and casual racism that comes along with it.

Nothing has changed because Zimmerman has identified himself as a minority.

Personally, I don't see too many people perceiving this guy to be white, regardless of how loose their interpretation. Even from the poor quality mug shots, he very obviously of Hispanic descent. Maybe other Hispanics and Hispanic mixes have a tilted view, but I'm pretty confident most people would describe him as Hispanic.

Why is being Hispanic considered as an indicator to whether or not he's racist against blacks?

It's not an indicator of anything, but it has historically effected what stories the media chooses to push with a racism angle. How often do minority on minority crimes make national news in America with a decided racist spin? Not many, despite the fact that they're probably very common. Meanwhile it seems like there's a new white on minority piece almost every week. The point was this story probably gained most of it's traction on the (mistaken) assumption that Zimmerman was white. He's clearly not by most people's metric. This doesn't change anything about the case at all, but it does change how the media (and most people, see the first half of this thread) present it and perceive it. The fact that he apparently does have a history of doing the same thing to other people (not just blacks) is an indicator that perhaps this wasn't entirely racially motivated, or at least not to the degree as some would have liked.

 

[Particle Physicist]

I see what you are saying. Yeah.

 

[Measley]

Chasing down someone and killing them is against the law.

Walking down the street as an African American with a hoodie on is not.

 

[MWS Natural]

Because only white people can be racist.

And there is no reason for people to feel this way.

 

[DY_nasty]

Personally, I don't see too many people perceiving this guy to be white, regardless of how loose their interpretation. Even from the poor quality mug shots, he very obviously of Hispanic descent. Maybe other Hispanics and Hispanic mixes have a tilted view, but I'm pretty confident most people would describe him as Hispanic.

Not with a name like Zimmerman... as another guy said, plenty of hispanic people identify themselves as white. Hell, a lot of minorities would if they could.

Still doesn't change the real issue at hand though.

 

[Haint]

Who are the posters here still defending Zimmerman?

Reallink
Enron

Who else?

Nope, I'm not defending anyone. I haven't look at any of the new details about the case, beyond where I commented back on the earlier pages (which was all purely hypothetical as almost every detail was unknown). I wasn't even defending him back then, I was just trying to get people slow their roll, consider the actual evidence (at the time), and quit convicting the guy based on the media's sensationalism or their preconceived notions about whatever type of skinhead supremacist boogeyman they had concocted in their heads.

 

[sangreal]

Chasing down someone and killing them is against the law.

Walking down the street as an African American with a hoodie on is not.

I don't think a hoodie is required to be considered suspect. I've had 'concerned neighbors' call the police on me for:
-hanging out outside of a church in a boy scout uniform
-kicking around a soccer ball in the park with some friends (not playing soccer)
-spending too long saying goodnight to a girl outside of her house

 

[Big Baybee]

Nope, I'm not defending anyone. I haven't look at any of the new details about the case, beyond where I commented back on the earlier pages (which was all purely hypothetical as almost every detail was unknown). I wasn't even defending him back then, I was just trying to get people slow their roll, consider the actual evidence, and quit convicting the guy based on the media's sensationalism or their preconceived notions about whatever type of skinhead supremacist boogeyman they had concocted in their heads.

So..................you are just going to ignore all the new evidence or what?

 

[Enzom21]

Nope, I'm not defending anyone. I haven't look at any of the new details about the case, beyond where I commented back on the earlier pages (which was all purely hypothetical as almost every detail was unknown). I wasn't even defending him back then, I was just trying to get people slow their roll, consider the actual evidence, and quit convicting the guy based on the media's sensationalism or their preconceived notions about whatever type of skinhead supremacist boogeyman they had concocted in their heads.

You seem more concerned with people thinking the guy is white and a racist than the fact that he murdered a 17 kid. By the way, there is a video on the previous page where you can hear Zimmerman say "fucking coons" during his 911 call. So race is most certainly a factor in this case.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

Nope, I'm not defending anyone. I haven't look at any of the new details about the case, beyond where I commented back on the earlier pages (which was all purely hypothetical as almost every detail was unknown). I wasn't even defending him back then, I was just trying to get people slow their roll, consider the actual evidence (at the time), and quit convicting the guy based on the media's sensationalism or their preconceived notions about whatever type of skinhead supremacist boogeyman they had concocted in their heads.

The shit isn't unknown now, is it? And people aren't concocting anything. These are facts and witnesses. Period.

If you feel threatened you don't approach a guy with your gun. You stay in your car and wait for the police where you're safe.

Is there ONE person here would thinks if this was a white kid that it would have went down this way? Please speak up. I'll wait.

 

[Haint]

You seem more concerned with people thinking the guy is white and a racist than the fact that he murdered a 17 kid. By the way, there is a video on the previous page where you can hear Zimmerman say "fucking coons" during his 911 call. So race is most certainly a factor in this case.

Thanks, that has been the whole point of my recent postings. You just described virtually every poster in the first part of this thread with that comment. Everybody was more concerned by the idea that the guy was white and racist--the media, commenters, everyone--evidence and facts be damned. The fact that he killed a 17 year old kid was nothing but a foot note that allowed them to push their racism agenda.

 

[Wolfe]

Being a white-looking hispanic like you described myself - I can tell you for sure that Zimmerman looks hella hispanic and not white at all really.

But I agree, nothing has changed because of the identification.

Ok but as a straight up white male, he looked white when I saw his mug on the news this morning, I was not surprised to read that he is hispanic but it definitely didn't stick out when I first saw his face.

Works both ways

You said "hella" though which means we can be friends forever.

 

[LosDaddie]

Sanford is shady as all hell. It's in Central Florida and that area is fairly racist once you get outside of Orlando/Tampa. Those gated communities contain a lot of donors, connected people, influential people, etc. Plus, I would bet $10 that the police were lazy and not wanted to disrupt the town over an outsider who also happened to be black.

Sanford is a shithole compared to the rest of Central FL. Only place worse is Apopka

Spoiler

I live in Longwood