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[ratcliffja]

Did this thread get replaced by a Monty Python sketch?

 

[commedieu]

Considering no one knows who actually started the physical contact between the two. Or if there even was any. Your statement is loaded with assumptions.

Are you seriously saying that IF Martin starting hitting Zimmerman first it's irrelevant?

What I am saying is that Trayvon was a kid walking down the street who was shot by Zimmerman. Him defending himself against a strange man following him with a gun, and a police record, doesn't change that story. Apparently it wouldn't be illegal either, as it is his right defend himself, if he felt his life was in danger. It doesn't change the situation, as he is innocent of any crime didn't have drugs in his system. He was profiled for walking and his attire. Which is what the story has been.

I am not playing devils advocate. I was just arguing against the simplification of the event. I am not arguing for Zimmerman. I am just arguing the facts given, or the lack of them.

Shit, I.. I just can't. I have to go to sleep. Same time tomorrow Xenon... also pm'd u.

[punches timecard]

I see where you're coming from, but people also seem to be forgettingt:

1) Zimmerman was not an official member of the neighborhood watch.

2) Zimmerman has a past history of aggression, including a domestic dispute with his ex-fiance which resulted in a restraining order being placed on him.

3) A history of calling 911 (46 calls during the course of a single year), with more than just a few of those calls specifically targeting young black males or "strange vehicles" driven by "suspicious" looking people.

4) That Zimmerman's 911 call firmly establishes his confrontational mood. Comments like, "These assholes always get away," and "Fucking >blank<" definitely say to me that he wasn't in the mood to rationally, and reasonably talk this situation out with Trayvon.

5) Zimmerman isn't psychic. He couldn't have possibly known about Trayvon's past any more than Trayvon could have known about Zimmerman being a part of the neighborhood watch.

6) Zimmerman didn't listen to the 911 dispatcher when they told him not to follow the "suspicious" person, and to just meet up with the police. Instead, Zimmerman told them to "have them call me, and I'll tell them where I'm at." Why didn't he stay where he was? Why didn't he just wait until the police showed up, and then pointed in the direction the "suspicious" person went when they arrived?

7) By Zimmerman's own admission, the "suspicious" black kid that "looks like he is up to no good. He is on drugs or something," noticed Zimmerman following him in an SUV and started to run away. I don't know about you, but I've been walking down the street at night on my way home, and I've been unnerved by slowmoving vehicles riding up along beside me while I was walking. It's fricking scary. Thinking back to when I was 17, I would have been scared shitless and apprehensive, and maybe even bolted myself. When you are being followed by a complete stranger, it's completely reasonable for you to flee if you are uncomfortable. That's not the fault of the person being followed. Just because Zimmerman's racial bias made him interpret Trayvon's fleeing as a sign of guilt isn't Trayvon's fault, nor is it justification for Zimmerman pursuing him with his firearm.

8) For a man that felt his life was in danger enough to pull out his gun and shoot an unarmed kid, and that his bloody nose and scratched head were enough to warrant pulling out the gun, he refrained from being admitted to the hospital.

9) Neighborhood Watch members are prohibited from carrying firearms. Even so, Zimmerman was the type who felt the need to be armed at all times. This is, in my opinion, a recipe for trouble. Paranoia and firearms simply don't mix, no matter what side of the gun debate you reside on.

10) If it's true that the fatal altercation happened in between houses, that completely refutes Zimmerman's claim that he was "jumped from behind" by Trayvon while going back to his car. It implies that Zimmerman chased Trayvon through the buildings, and an altercation broke out.

11) Trayvon's girlfriend, who was talking to Trayvon at the time of the incident, claims she heard Zimmerman ask him what he "was doing here," then the call abruptly ended. She called him back, but got no answer. This claim also contradicts Zimmerman's claim of being jumped. He can't be jumped if he was talking to Trayvon.

I think there has been plenty of information concerning the beginning and end of the incident. Some of the in between events are muddied, but that's what a proper police investigation would have uncovered, if the Sandford PD wasn't so quick to chalk it up to "self defense," run drug tests on Trayvon (and not he shooter who killed him), and call it an open and shut case, not even bringing in Zimmerman for questioning.

I may be upset by this situation, but I'm certainly not calling for blood. I think there's plenty for us to go on to draw some reasonable, non-emotionally, or even racially motivated conclusions here. It's ultimately not up for us to decide the fate of Zimmerman, but it's pretty clear where his mindset was at that night (looking at his prior interactions with the police).

Again, I understand what you're saying, but I don't think those that are calling foul on Zimmerman are doing so without plenty of information from various sources (one being Zimmerman himself on the 911 call).

What I'm interested in is learning what Trayvon's 911 call contained. Just the fact that he called 911 himself calls into question Zimmerman's "self defense" claim. I can't remember a time when the aggressor, the person that jumps you from behind to get into a fight, would call 911 before hand...

 

[Oblivion]

 

[Xenon]

Figboy79 thanks for the post, I agree with what you have said.

I will say this Zimmerman should at a minimum get manslaughter. He brought deadly force into the situation he created so Martin's death falls on him.

 

[SmokyDave]

Trayvon Martin, White America and the Return of Dred Scott

For a while now we’ve known that there were significant numbers of white Americans who wanted to “take their country back” to some mythical period of the nation’s hagiographic past. We’ve known it because they’ve told us so, as often and endlessly as their lungs will allow.

Little did we realize, however, that for at least some in the white community that prior era of glory was not merely the too-often-nostalgized 1950s — with its misremembered innocence still fresh in their minds — but rather, the 1850‘s. Not 1957, the year in which the CBS television network gave us Leave it to Beaver, but instead, 1857, the year in which the Supreme Court gave us its decision in Dred Scott.

But now we know.

It was there, after all, that the nation’s brightest, most accomplished and yet most ethically decrepit jurists reminded the nation that blacks “had no rights which the white man was bound to respect.” They could never be citizens, “entitled to all the rights, and privileges, and immunities, guaranteed by (the Constitution),” because the framers of that document (to whom the Court referred as “great men,” “high in their sense of honor”) had never intended them such. And much like today’s conservative theorists, who are equally enamored of the so-called “jurisprudence of original intent,” the highest court, beholden as it was to the insipid moral views of 18th century white supremacists, insisted things must stay that way.

As the decision noted:

“[T]he legislation and histories of the times, and the language used in the Declaration of Independence, show, that neither the class of persons who had been imported as slaves, nor their descendants, whether they had become free or not, were then acknowledged as a part of the people, nor intended to be included in the general words used in that memorable instrument (the Constitution).

They had for more than a century before been regarded as beings of an inferior order, and altogether unfit to associate with the white race, either in social or political relations; and so far inferior, that they had no rights which the white man was bound to respect…This opinion was at that time fixed and universal in the civilized portion of the white race. It was regarded as an axiom in morals as well as in politics, which no one thought of disputing, or supposed to be open to dispute; and men in every grade and position in society daily and habitually acted upon it in their private pursuits, as well as in matters of public concern, without doubting for a moment the correctness of this opinion.”​

Importantly, and this is what is particularly relevant for our current discussion, the Court opined that blacks were clearly never intended to be considered citizens, for had they been so, such designation would have extended to such individuals the unacceptable right “to go where they pleased at every hour of the day or night without molestation, unless they committed some violation of law…”

And this is what brings us to the terrifying present, a period some 155 years later, but during which time it appears there are still far too many in the white community (and even some among persons of color) who would return us to the logic of Dred Scott. This they make clear from their hateful and bigoted musings about Trayvon Martin, a 17-year old black male who made the mistake, in their mind, of forgetting that he had no rights which white men (or even Latino white-male-wannabes like George Zimmerman) need respect. No right to go where he pleased, “without molestation,” no right to be treated like a citizen, indeed like a human being. No rights to due process, to peaceably assemble on a public street, to free speech (which he foolishly tried to exercise by asking his pursuer, Zimmerman, why he was following him), to be free from cruel and unusual punishment (such as extra-judicial execution for being black in a hoodie and thus arousing the suspicions of a paranoid negrophobe). No rights at all.

And not even the well-established right to self-defense — the very right Zimmerman would now claim for himself, but which apparently did not extend to the young man whose life he ended. And so we hear (whether true or not — it remains to be seen) that Zimmerman had a broken nose and head injuries, that Martin attacked him: never mind that Zimmerman took out after Martin, that Zimmerman accosted Martin and asked him what he was doing in the neighborhood, that, according to witnesses, it was Zimmerman who pinned Martin down. We are supposed to feel sorry for the shooter because even in the light most favorable to him, his victim might have actually fought back! Imagine that, fighting back against a total stranger who attacks you. That Martin would still be alive and Zimmerman would never have suffered the indignity of a broken septum, nor the anger of millions aimed in his direction had he just kept his stupid ass in his SUV like the police told him to do apparently matters not. Because, as some wish to remind us, Trayvon Martin had been suspended for school on suspicion of marijuana possession (an allegation so weak that he received no citation for the incident); and because Trayvon didn’t have a receipt for those Skittles he had in his possession when he was murdered (as if any 17 year old asks for a receipt when they purchase candy like they were going to need it for an expense report); and because Trayvon posed like a gangster on Facebook. Oh no, sorry, wrong Trayvon, but racists are like the Honey Badger–they don’t give a shit.

The active and putrescent campaign of defamation now in full swing against this dead child is a reminder of just how little black life matters to some. No matter the facts, their deaths are always justified.

These are the ideological soul mates of those who insisted Emmett Till really did say “Bye Baby” to that white woman, as if such an offense could even theoretically justify shooting him, tying a cotton gin fan to his neck with barbed wire, and tossing him in the Tallahatchie River.

No rights which the white man is bound to respect.

They are the iniquitous heirs of the white reprobates who insisted against all logic and evidence that Dick Rowland really did attack Sarah Page in that Tulsa elevator, and thus, it was necessary to burn the black Greenwood district of the city to the ground in retaliation.

No rights which the white man is bound to respect.

They are the fetid philosophical offspring of those whites who stood beneath the swinging bodies of Thomas Shipp and Abram Smith, whom they had lynched, content in their own certitude that they had — again, evidence be damned — raped a white woman.

No rights which the white man is bound to respect.

They are the vile and reeking progeny of those who insisted that even disrespecting white people was sufficient justification to affix black bodies to short ropes dangling from tall trees, to burn them with blowtorches, chop off body parts and sell them — or pictures of the carnage — as souvenirs.

No rights which the white man is bound to respect.

They are the odious inheritors of a time-honored and dreadful tradition, in which virtually no misdeed the target of which is black can simply be condemned for what it is, and then have such condemnation followed by a period at the end of the sentence. No, it is forever and always the case that such condemnations, when and if they issue at all, will inevitably be followed by a comma, and the word “but,” and the attempt, however clumsy and craven, to all but erase the condemnation in a word salad of imbecilic rhetoric and exculpatory exhortation.

They are the carelessly cogitating companions of those who seek to brush aside the killings of Amadou Diallo, Patrick Dorismond, or any of the hundreds of other folks of color, who comprise the disproportionate share of unarmed persons killed by law enforcement in city after city across America over the years. They are always to blame for their own deaths.

If they had just put their hands up, like they were asked.

If they had just not run.

If they had just answered the questions put to them politely and quickly.

If they had just not grabbed for their keys or wallet.

If they had just understood that the men dressed in plainclothes, pointing guns at them were police.

If they had just not worn those clothes, or that hairstyle.

If they just hadn’t seemed nervous.

If they just hadn’t fit the description of some criminal the police were looking for, and by “fit the description” we mean had they not been black or brown, between 5 foot 8 and 6 foot 6, walking upright.

Nothing is unacceptable to these people. Nothing. Their fear of blacks allows them to smooth over every bigoted crease in their racialized narrative, to make the indefensible defensible, in the name of their own perceived safety. Their pathological inability to look at black people as anything other than an undifferentiated mass of criminals, rather than encouraging us to condemn them for their utterly stupefying lack of discernment, and mentally diseased dysfunction, is to serve as a defense to every racist act. Black people are to bear the burden of everyone else’s mendacious and morally supine stupidity. Black people are to continue being profiled, suspected, and occasionally killed, so long as those conditioned by white supremacy are afraid of them. And that, we are to believe, is the fault of black people, not the rest of us.

Because black people have no rights that the white man is bound to respect.

A black president will have to prove, again and again, to the utter dissatisfaction of cretinous bottom-feeders, that he is really an American.

A black college student will have to prove, again and again, to the utter amazement of benighted white undergrads that he or she really does belong in the University community to which his or her entrance was secured.

A black teenager will have to prove that he isn’t a criminal, to the satisfaction of anyone who might think otherwise, lest they be tackled and shot.

And some of us will continue trying to prove — as if there could, any longer, be a question about it — that white privilege is real. That any feeling, remotely thinking person could dispute it, when no white mother is having to have the talk with their sons that black mothers across America are routinely having with theirs (both before and after the killing of Trayvon Martin) tells you all you need to know about denial and its impermeability. It tells you all you need to know about the America of 2012, relative to that of 1857. For however much things have changed since then, one thing remains the same.

Black people still have no rights which the white man is bound to respect.​

That was a great read. Intelligence and passion make a fearsome combination.

 

[MightyHealthy]

I know I'm probably late, but more details:

On February 26th, the night Martin was killed, police questioned Zimmerman for five hours at police headquarters. The police report noted Zimmerman was "bleeding from the nose and the back of the head."

Police did not administer a drug and alcohol test or an immediate background check on Zimmerman, although they did both on Martin.

The next day, detectives re-enacted the shooting with Zimmerman at the scene. They also discovered Zimmerman had two prior arrests: one for assaulting a cop, the other for domestic abuse.

For the next two weeks, lead investigator Chris Serino pursued a manslaughter charge against Zimmerman.

Police interviewed at least six witnesses. But none of them saw how the confrontation began or the shooting that ended it.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18563_162-57405476/what-happened-right-after-trayvon-martins-shooting/

 

[ShinNL]

For someone with such a weird username, Figboy79's post sure is amazing. This man oozes common sense, I love it.

I'm wondering a bit about this part:
"On February 26th, the night Martin was killed, police questioned Zimmerman for five hours at police headquarters. The police report noted Zimmerman was "bleeding from the nose and the back of the head.""

One witness stated that Zimmerman was walking confused back and forth when Trayvon died. He put both his hands on his head wondering what to do. Since his head was bleeding, doesn't that mean his hands should be covered in blood then?

 

[The Incarnation]

I am not playing devils advocate. I was just arguing against the simplification of the event. I am not arguing for Zimmerman. I am just arguing the facts given, or the lack of them.

Why?

When others have clearly done the same..

You think you'll be more successful or something?

 

[neojubei]

AND, it made it more suspicious when he ran away.

I think this is pointless... people only want to see this from one point of view.

ONE POINT OF VIEW!!!


WTH, so what you are saying is that Black people walking down the street that seem suspicious to any random person should stop and give up all their info and lie face down on the street to seem less suspicious than say someone following them in a car then jumping out and conforting them? I do not care if the person is Black, White, Asian whatever, if they are following me in their car at night I will run. I could give a damn if that made me more suspicious, why is it any business to anyone else. Trayvon had a right to live and protect himself.

 

[Enron]

I know I'm probably late, but more details:



http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18563_162-57405476/what-happened-right-after-trayvon-martins-shooting/

CNN has an article comparing witness statements - and some of them contradict one another. I remember saying witness testimony was notoriously unreliable and getting buried for it earlier in this thread.

 

[empty vessel]

That information seems irrelevant to your conclusion. I'm guessing white people are more likely to kill white people. Black people are more likely to kill black people. You do say regardless of the perpetraters race, but i can't tell if that information is simply lumped together or true for all races.

Empirical studies overwhelmingly show that homicidal violence inflicted upon black persons is treated less seriously by law enforcement authorities than homicidal violence inflicted upon white persons. This case concerns homicidal violence inflicted upon a black person. Ergo, it is taken less seriously by law enforcement authorities.

CNN has an article comparing witness statements - and some of them contradict one another. I remember saying witness testimony was notoriously unreliable and getting buried for it earlier in this thread.

There is no doubt that eyewitness testimony is unreliable. That doesn't affect whether probable cause to charge exists. Authorities do not have to satisfy themselves that Zimmerman committed a crime beyond a reasonable doubt. There only has to be evidence from which a reasonable person could believe a crime was committed and that Zimmerman committed it. Conflicting witness statements do not prevent criminal charges.

 

[Cousteau]

Has the Skittles angle been explored yet? I mean , the kid had not 1 but 2 bags.

 

[Particle Physicist]

From the conservatives I've talked to they think Democrats are going to use Martin's death to somehow take away their guns.

And so they have decided to push back greatly against Trayvon, including a smear campaign. I think I've decided to label every single Republican I meet a racist until proven otherwise. I'm sick of hearing excuses for this widespread behavior that seems to permeate the party.

 

[CrazyDogg77]

And so they have decided to push back greatly against Trayvon, including a smear campaign. I think I've decided to label every single Republican I meet a racist until proven otherwise. I'm sick of hearing excuses for this widespread behavior that seems to permeate the party.

At least your black father isn't a Republican.

 

[fastford58]

And so they have decided to push back greatly against Trayvon, including a smear campaign. I think I've decided to label every single Republican I meet a racist until proven otherwise. I'm sick of hearing excuses for this widespread behavior that seems to permeate the party.

Heh.

 

[Megidolaon]

I can't speak for anyone else, but I certainly was not just "playing devil's advocate". And I don't think everyone "defending" Zimmerman is trolling or views this as a game.

Wanting to know if the guy murdered in cold blood or reluctantly shot in self defense is a big difference and if I were a potential juror, I would want to know every last detail of how the situation went down to determine culpability.

What happened is a tragedy, but Zimmerman is still a human being and deserves to have his chance to tell his side of the story before getting threats against him and his family.

That's the reason I've been posting. I'm not saying Zimmerman acted perfectly or was an angel (nobody is), but the media and public seems like it won't allow any chance to humanize him, and that's not fair. Like when his friends defend him, assuming they must be paid off or have ulterior motives. That's pretty nasty. Distorting his 911 calls, like the 7-9 year old kid, wasn't he just concerned for the kid's safety? Or him mentoring black children. Oh, but that wouldn't fit with the caricature of the psycho racist, so let's just ignore that. Nasty.

And I feel the same way about the folks have been trying to smear Trayvon's character as well. That's awful. So what if he got suspended for pot or had tattoos or whatever? Makes no difference. He's a human being and was loved by his family and friends. Digging up his Twitter posts and showing his "thug" pictures is mean and nasty. Nothing I;ve heard makes him seem like a bad person.

Both sides are being ridiculously nasty about this whole thing. Whether the police investigation was done competently or not, the way people are reacting to this situation is nasty and unbecoming.

And the nastiness is fueling the hatred. Blacks vs. whites, right vs. left, republicans vs. democrats. It's sad.

 

[BruiserBear]

And so they have decided to push back greatly against Trayvon, including a smear campaign. I think I've decided to label every single Republican I meet a racist until proven otherwise. I'm sick of hearing excuses for this widespread behavior that seems to permeate the party.

Well that's certainly an original idea.

 

[Dash27]

Empirical studies overwhelmingly show that homicidal violence inflicted upon black persons is treated less seriously by law enforcement authorities than homicidal violence inflicted upon white persons. This case concerns homicidal violence inflicted upon a black person. Ergo, it is taken less seriously by law enforcement authorities.

*facepalm*

 

[Mortrialus]

*facepalm*

Nothing he said there was wrong.

 

[Particle Physicist]

Well that's certainly an original idea.

Until there is a big push within the Republican party against those that so vocally use racially charged language, that won't change.

 

[dark_chris]

i've been outta the loop for days now...
has this asshole been taken in yet?

 

[Figboy79]

For someone with such a weird username, Figboy79's post sure is amazing. This man oozes common sense, I love it.

I'm wondering a bit about this part:
"On February 26th, the night Martin was killed, police questioned Zimmerman for five hours at police headquarters. The police report noted Zimmerman was "bleeding from the nose and the back of the head.""

One witness stated that Zimmerman was walking confused back and forth when Trayvon died. He put both his hands on his head wondering what to do. Since his head was bleeding, doesn't that mean his hands should be covered in blood then?

Lol. Thanks! My user name is a relic from my high school days and the comic books i drew then (and still draw now). It has sentimental value for me. Lol (well, not the 79, as that's just the year I was born, of course.).

Anyway, thanks for the kind words about my posts! I had promised myself and my wife I wouldn't get involved in ths thread, but we've both been obsessively reading it all week, and some of the amazingly bigoted, ingnorant, and racist comments I've seen spurred me to break that promise.

I do think Zimmerman should, based off of what we know, face manslaughter charges. There was simply no reason for him to disobey 911's orders and pursue Trayvon, which ultimately resulted in his death. Why didn't he leave his gun in the car anyway? Because he expected an altercation, and wanted to be on the winning side of it. It's pretty much undeniable that his claims of fearing for his safety are sketchy when you remember he had a gun, and was the one who initiated this encounter with Trayvon.

I mean, was Zimmerman so insecure that not even possessing a firearm was sufficient enough to give him the confidence to live out his wanna be cop fantasy? I'm fricking ecstatic that he was scrubbed from the police force. I mean, man it would have only been a matter of time betore that fear and insecurity led him to hurt somebod- oh. Whoops.

 

[Princess Carl]

*facepalm*

data doesn't lie

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

Nothing he said there was wrong.

He's probably right that the matter was treated less seriously because Tayvon was black, but let's hope he never teaches a logic or science class.

 

[Xenon]

ONE POINT OF VIEW!!!


WTH, so what you are saying is that Black people walking down the street that seem suspicious to any random person should stop and give up all their info and lie face down on the street to seem less suspicious than say someone following them in a car then jumping out and conforting them? I do not care if the person is Black, White, Asian whatever, if they are following me in their car at night I will run. I could give a damn if that made me more suspicious, why is it any business to anyone else. Trayvon had a right to live and protect himself.

I was commenting on what happened, and speculating on what was going on in Zimmerman's mind, nothing more. Please quote where I said it was ok or acceptable to do what you are trying to imply I said.

 

[Baconsammy]

I do think Zimmerman should, based off of what we know, face manslaughter charges. There was simply no reason for him to disobey 911's orders and pursue Trayvon, which ultimately resulted in his death. Why didn't he leave his gun in the car anyway? Because he expected an altercation, and wanted to be on the winning side of it. It's pretty much undeniable that his claims of fearing for his safety are sketchy when you remember he had a gun, and was the one who initiated this encounter with Trayvon.

One would logically assume because he didn't know if the person he originally thought was a threat was still a threat. Putting the gun away would have been stupid in that case.

 

[Onemic]

I can't speak for anyone else, but I certainly was not just "playing devil's advocate". And I don't think everyone "defending" Zimmerman is trolling or views this as a game.

Wanting to know if the guy murdered in cold blood or reluctantly shot in self defense is a big difference and if I were a potential juror, I would want to know every last detail of how the situation went down to determine culpability.

What happened is a tragedy, but Zimmerman is still a human being and deserves to have his chance to tell his side of the story before getting threats against him and his family.

That's the reason I've been posting. I'm not saying Zimmerman acted perfectly or was an angel (nobody is), but the media and public seems like it won't allow any chance to humanize him, and that's not fair. Like when his friends defend him, assuming they must be paid off or have ulterior motives. That's pretty nasty. Distorting his 911 calls, like the 7-9 year old kid, wasn't he just concerned for the kid's safety? Or him mentoring black children. Oh, but that wouldn't fit with the caricature of the psycho racist, so let's just ignore that. Nasty.

And I feel the same way about the folks have been trying to smear Trayvon's character as well. That's awful. So what if he got suspended for pot or had tattoos or whatever? Makes no difference. He's a human being and was loved by his family and friends. Digging up his Twitter posts and showing his "thug" pictures is mean and nasty. Nothing I;ve heard makes him seem like a bad person.

Both sides are being ridiculously nasty about this whole thing. Whether the police investigation was done competently or not, the way people are reacting to this situation is nasty and unbecoming.

And the nastiness is fueling the hatred. Blacks vs. whites, right vs. left, republicans vs. democrats. It's sad.

Not to take away from your post, but didn't the 911 call about the 7 year old kid just say he was suspicious? When I read the log it didn't say anything about him fearing for the childs safety.

 

[Figboy79]

One would logically assume because he didn't know if the person he originally thought was a threat was still a threat. Putting the gun away would have been stupid in that case.

I understand that, but then that also begs the question: Why pursue a potentially dangerous threat when you are not law enforcement? Especially when you have already contacted law enforcement to handle the situation?

It seems pretty clear that Zimmerman wanted to play hero again, and calling 911 was simply a courtesy so they could arrive, and he'd have the situation firmly under control, and receive pats on the back and kudos. Of course, that fantasy didn't play out that way in the real world, as most fantasies tend to do.

I apologize, I was letting my irritation with this whole situation lead me to speculate, but it's not hard to piece together a guy like Zimmerman's mindset after reading up on his 46 previous 911 calls, and learning that he had already helped to foil a burglary before. He really does seem to have delusions of grandeur, or a desire to be what he was denied.

There's a reason why people are scrubbed from the police academy. I'm actually kind of curious as to the results of Zimmerman's psyche evaluation, and what let to him being denied admission to pursue a path in law enforcement.

I have friends that are cops, and it certainly isn't easy to get in. Since Zimmerman is responsible for taking another man's life (something even police don't do on a regular basis), I think the information is kind of relevant/important to this case.

 

[Zoe]

Not to take away from your post, but didn't the 911 call about the 7 year old kid just say he was suspicious? When I read the log it didn't say anything about him fearing for the childs safety.

http://www.documentcloud.org/documents/327330-george-zimmerrman-911-call-history.html, Page 37

IS WALKING ALONE & IS NOT SUPERVISED ON BUSY STREET // COMPL CONCERNED FOR WELL BEING

 

[KHarvey16]

Not to take away from your post, but didn't the 911 call about the 7 year old kid just say he was suspicious? When I read the log it didn't say anything about him fearing for the childs safety.

The event report specifies very clearly why he called. The summary presented by some media did not provide this important context.

 

[Baconsammy]

Zimmerman deserves the benefit of the doubt. So arrest him and give him his day in court.

 

[empty vessel]

He's probably right that the matter was treated less seriously because Tayvon was black, but let's hope he never teaches a logic or science class.

I agree that people who use the word "ergo" in a post simplifying a concept for another person ought to be barred from teaching science and logic courses. Let's start a movement.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

I agree that people who use the word "ergo" in a post simplifying a concept for another person ought to be barred from teaching science and logic courses. Let's start a movement.

It's not the word that was the issue, it was the logic of your statement.

 

[Xcellere]

Trayvon Martin. 27 feet tall, 4000 pounds, his skin hardened into a thick 2-inch-thick carapace of pure crack cocaine.

He rampages down the streets, picking up houses and pouring their TVs and jewelry into his mouth. All the while purple clouds of pure marijuana issue from his snorting nostrils, making him look like a mighty weed-dragon. No school or prison or school bus can contain him.

Enter expert marksman George Zimmerman, proud Mayan warrior. Attempting to peacefully stop the dark goliath from his pillaging with vis-a-vis discourse, Zimmerman is grabbed and squeezed to within an inch of his life. Spying a crack in the... crack (like the hole in the armor of the fiendish wyrm Smaug), Zimmerman takes aim and enters history.

Quoted for awesomeness.

 

[mckmas8808]

Man this whole thing is a mess.

 

[DrForester]

Considering no one knows who actually started the physical contact between the two. Or if there even was any. Your statement is loaded with assumptions.

Are you seriously saying that IF Martin starting hitting Zimmerman first it's irrelevant?

It's totally irrelevant since Zimmerman got out of the car to track the kid. His actions led to the altercation. Kid was being tracked by a guy with a gun, he was standing ground.

You can't track someone with a gun and then cry self defense when that person tries to stop you.

 

[AiTM]

I thought I read Zimmerman said he was walking back to his car after asking Trayvon what he was doing, and Trayvon went up to him and hit him. Could be bullshit but isnt he saying that? If that did happen then Trayvon would be the aggressor.

 

[Timedog]

Has the Skittles angle been explored yet? I mean , the kid had not 1 but 2 bags.

Kid was double fisting like a real gangster, obviously Zimmerman had probable cause to fire on him. The evidence that the left wing media doesn't want you to see is that Zimmerman worked for Starburst.

 

[Gorechylde]

Can anyone post a link to Trayvon's 911 call? I've been digging on google and youtube, but can't seem to find one. They are all tapes of Zimmerman's call or calls from the witnesses.

 

[Megidolaon]

I thought I read Zimmerman said he was walking back to his car after asking Trayvon what he was doing, and Trayvon went up to him and hit him. Could be bullshit but isnt he saying that? If that did happen then Trayvon would be the aggressor.

Yep, there are two very different stories circulating around. All the evidence should be revealed when the Grand Jury convenes, so until then the argument about this story is just gonna keep going around in circles with both sides arguing two different stories!

There is a lot of things that are suppsoedly not revealed yet, like Trayvon's 911 tape and such.

 

[Neuromancer]

I thought this was interesting, probably old by now though:

Former NAACP leader C.L. Bryant is accusing Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton of “exploiting” the Trayvon Martin tragedy to “racially divide this country.”

Bryant...said people like Jackson and Sharpton are being misleading to suggest there is an epidemic of “white men killing black young men.”

“The epidemic is truly black on black crime,” Bryant said. “The greatest danger to the lives of young black men are young black men.”

Bryant said he wishes civil rights leaders were protesting those problems.

“Why not be angry about the wholesale murder that goes on in the streets of Newark and Chicago?” he asked. “Why isn’t somebody angry about that six-year-old girl who was killed on her steps last weekend in a cross fire when two gang members in Chicago start shooting at each other? Why is there no outrage about that?”

He also criticized President Obama for his “nebulous statement” responding to Martin’s death that “if I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon.”

“What does that mean?” Bryant asked. “What was the purpose in that?

http://news.yahoo.com/former-naacp-leader-accuses-sharpton-jackson-exploiting-trayvon-182013430.html

 

[MightyHealthy]

Thinking about it: how often do police re-enact shootings with the person that lived? That basically prepped a possible defendant.

I thought I read Zimmerman said he was walking back to his car after asking Trayvon what he was doing, and Trayvon went up to him and hit him. Could be bullshit but isnt he saying that? If that did happen then Trayvon would be the aggressor.

That's what Zimmerman is saying, although I'm pretty sure his story is changing a lot, and is probably bullshit.

I mean, why else would his father declare to the media that George never exited his vehicle? Dude was even lying to his dad (who was probably trying to use his pull to get him out of another "incident")

 

[BobLoblaw]

I thought I read Zimmerman said he was walking back to his car after asking Trayvon what he was doing, and Trayvon went up to him and hit him. Could be bullshit but isnt he saying that? If that did happen then Trayvon would be the aggressor.

Because a kid that weights 100 pounds less, has no history of violence, armed only with candy/tea would obviously be the aggressor instead of a man that was 100 pounds heavier, has a history of violence, paranoia, carries a gun and racially profiles. Gotcha.

 

[Baconsammy]

It's sad that cops require gun training, but Florida allows, and encourages, any idiot with a gun to go out and play Clint Eastwood. Require a couple weeks of small arms training before someone's allowed to buy and carry a concealed weapon and maybe there will be fewer "accidents". Gun nuts are against that though. They want their guns and they want them now dammit.

 

[empty vessel]

It's not the word that was the issue, it was the logic of your statement.

The logic that a widely and robustly observed phenomenon occurring within the criminal justice system is at work in this case? You might need to explain your objection, because it doesn't make any sense at all to me. Especially in light of your already expressed agreement with the conclusion that Martin's race matters.

I thought this was interesting, probably old by now though:

http://news.yahoo.com/former-naacp-leader-accuses-sharpton-jackson-exploiting-trayvon-182013430.html

CL Bryant is not a former leader of the NAACP. He was the former president of the NAACP&#8217;s Garland, Texas Chapter. And he's a right-wing nut job.

"Reverend C L Bryant says that Rush Limbaugh facilitated his conversion from NAACP leadership to a pro active-tea party- right wing conservative position"

http://www.holeinthehull.com/2011/10/rev-cl-bryants-conversion-from-the-naacp-to-the-right.html

 

[Open Source]

Empirical studies overwhelmingly show that homicidal violence inflicted upon black persons is treated less seriously by law enforcement authorities than homicidal violence inflicted upon white persons. This case concerns homicidal violence inflicted upon a black person. Ergo, it is taken less seriously by law enforcement authorities.

Is the data controlled for other factors beyond ethnicity? I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'd be interested in seeing the data myself.

 

[empty vessel]

Is the data controlled for other factors beyond ethnicity? I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'd be interested in seeing the data myself.

Yes, this is a robust, and repeatedly verified phenomenon.

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/race-and-death-penalty-north-carolina
http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/editorials/2003-04-28-our-view_x.htm

I am not aware of a single study--and there have been many--that has failed to find a statistically significant link between the race of the victim and the result produced by the criminal justice system. Specifically, that perpetrators of crimes against blacks are treated more leniently by the system than perpetrators of crimes against whites. The race of the victim matters much more than the race of the alleged perpetrator in terms of outcomes.

 

[AiTM]

Because a kid that weights 100 pounds less, has no history of violence, armed only with candy/tea would obviously be the aggressor instead of a man that was 100 pounds heavier, has a history of violence, paranoia, carries a gun and racially profiles. Gotcha.

I know he has no history of violence, but what about that tweet posted a while back where his brother posted something about him hitting a bus driver?

That 100 pounds means nothing when you are talking about fat. A 150 pound man in shape who regularly works out against a 250 pound man who has all fat and sits around all day doesn't mean one has the advantage. I wish people would stop saying this argument. Anyone who has ever had any physical altercation knows this.

Obviously it could be murder, but people need to stop ignoring that this could have went down a multitude of ways, and not all of them mean Zimmerman murdered Martin. You cant deny the possibility that he defended himself.

I should stay out of this thread because anytime you bring up these points you just get called a racist and put on a path to being banned, but people are pushing race so hard here they just want to ignore that this isn't as cut and dry as everyone makes it out to be.

Has Zimmerman ever jumped or pulled a gun on any black people in his past? Or was it all just following people he thought suspicious in his neighborhood? He has to have followed people before, did he ever confront any of them? Why is Martin the first one he fought with?

 

[BruiserBear]

Until there is a big push within the Republican party against those that so vocally use racially charged language, that won't change.

Hmm. I've seen plenty of racially charged language on both sides of this topic.

But then again I don't affiliate myself with a political party or ideology. So that might explain why.

 

[Baconsammy]

Congressman thrown out of House for wearing hoodie.

The floor of the House is renowned for being the forum for stunts like this, but the Republican Speaker wasn't having any of it. Republicans, always on the wrong side of everything it seems.