Family of Florida boy killed by Neighborhood Watch seeks arrest
- Thread starter Dram
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slidewinder
Banned
As far as I can tell, it's fairly unlikely that the grand jury will even be persuaded to indict the guy given the immunity he has under the law. This thing was dead if not for the popular outrage and media attention it has gotten in recent weeks, and it's only because of that the State's Attorney is even bringing it in front of the grand jury; not because they think they have a case, but because this will be a way of diffusing the flak they have (understandably) taken.
TL;DR: I think the grand jury is going to decline to indict him, and Zimmerman will never go to criminal trial at all.
TL;DR: I think the grand jury is going to decline to indict him, and Zimmerman will never go to criminal trial at all.
DrForester
Kills Photobucket
With the public outrage, I find it very unlikely the prosecution will allow a plea bargain. they're already going to be in enough trouble when they charge Zimmerman with Manslaughter and not Murder like many are calling for.
Depends on a lot of things, and it's not always like in the movies. We know it was a small caliber round (9mm) and he could have been using full jackets that would leave a smaller entry wound.
With that said, I would expect there to be some obvious blood stains if Trayvon was on top of him, but it is possible that blood would not start coming out of the possibly small wound. Again though, we just don't know enough about the confrontation.
Do you know what you are saying? So if i follow you at night armed and you fight me I can shoot you and claim self defense? What did you expect to happen when Zimmerman followed and confronted Trayvon? Should all kids now stop for totally strangers if they are being followed? Really?
That's not the problem (I'm against death penalty). The problem is that he isn't even charged and brought to trial right now.
If Florida's self-defence law allows for killing somebody without the deed being subject to a thorough investigation and a trial then that's just fucked up and needs to be changed. By the evil Feds, if they don't do it on their own.
Forceatowulf
G***n S**n*bi
It really is absurd on so many god damn levels.
I mean, imagine a girl noticing a guy stalking her while she's on a jog alone, then suddenly the guy approaches her, she tries to flee, a struggle begins, the guy ends up shooting her in the chest. Guy claims self defense.
An utterly In-fucking-conceivable defense.
Oh and the girl is nearly 100 pounds lighter than the guy and is armed with a bottle of water and a granola bar.
What does that have to do with what he just posted? They were discussing what Zimmerman told the cops about the struggle.
Why was there a struggle if there was? Oh because Zimmerman took it upon himself to follow a kid in the street. Heck i could follow someone shoot them and say there was a struggle. What in the world did Zimmerman or even you expect to have happened when he got out his car and followed the kid?
I like how you're so willing to believe someone whos story has changed multiple times now(Does the struggle for the gun now make it the 3rd or 4th time hes changed a significant part of his story?), has a history of violence and recorded criminal behaviour, and whos story has several holes, and not believe an unarmed kid whos story so far has been totally consistent, and was stalked, chased down and eventually killed. Bravo sir. I don't think you're being contrarian, I think you straight up want zimmerman to go free.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
I said this before-- from my time on a Grand Jury, if they don't indict him it will only be because the State's Attorney is throwing the case. It's remarkably easy to get an indictment, since the burdens of proof are lax and only the prosecution makes a case.
Megidolaon
Member
You're still assuming that Zimmerman initiated the confrontation.
The 911 dispatcher said they didn't need him to follow, he said "ok."
IF Trayvon came back and confronted Zimmerman who at that point was retreating, assaulted him, and then the struggle ensued, then that changed the dynamics of self-defense.
I'm not even saying whether that happened or not. Just that it's possible.
EDIT: And who said Zimmerman changed his story? The media reporting bits and pieces or misinterpreting his story doesn't mean HE changed the story. The media gets shit wrong all the time about this stuff. I'm surprised so many people trust them at face value.
slidewinder
Banned
That's normally how it goes. But did you have any cases before you where the accused had immunity from prosecution?
Martins body was found over 100 yards away from zimmermans suv.
FrontalMonk
Banned
uh, but didn't he NOT just say "ok"? I thought the whole point was that he DID follow Martin. Everyone is assuming Zimmerman initiated the confrontation because that's what every piece of evidence points to. Every phone call, even Zimmerman's own account was that he got off the phone with 911 and then left his vehicle.
What the hell.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
Not sure exactly what "immunity from prosecution" means, but assuming you mean people with influence in the system, then yes. One fairly high-profile case. I can't go into specifics, but the charged was a police officer. We indicted him. Eventually, much later, the case was thrown out by a judge, which is pretty BS.
Zimmerman's statement to police, reportedly, is that he left his car and then lost sight of him. As he was headed back Trayvon met him.
Blackace
if you see me in a fight with a bear, don't help me fool, help the bear!
Make sure to have a father who was a judge
Ah yes, now the media is reporting his story wrong! Zimmerman is just an angel looking to protect the community. You do know the initial statement he gave was reported by police right? You do know it didn't say anything about their being a struggle for the gun right? You do know if you listen to the 911 tapes it is clear he has been stalking Trayvon and then leaves his car to go chase him right? And you do know that he later changed his story he initially told police about him talking to the boy before he assaulted him, to him being jumped from behind, back to him talking to the boy(coming from his dad)?
Don't try to play up the reasonable voice shtick when it's so clear what your agenda is. At least just be truthful with what your intentions are as it makes you look a lot worse when you try to play that game and fail miserably at it. I may have had serious arguments with reallink but at least he was able to state his intentions without having to hide behind some devils advocate or reasonable voice bullshit, which is much more respectable than what you're doing.
The Incarnation
Member
*Rolls eyes*
Trayvon on phone with girlfriend, Girlfriend tells Trayvon to run way, Trayvon says no, I'll just walk real fast.
Zimmerman catches upto Trayvon, girlfriend hears Zimmerman ask Trayvon what he is doing here, Girlfriend hears the sound of someone then being pushed down into the grass,
Girlfriend cut off from Trayvon.
Cue other witness on the phone to the police.
Where you can clearly hear Trayvon screaming and begging for help, and then gunshot...silence.
And to plant deadly bags of skittles and cans ice tea on the 'crooks'.
BattleMonkey
Member
I served on the grand jury in Florida, not sure what you are trying to say here. State attorney's also have very little power or influence on the grand jury. A grand jury panel is largely run by the Jury itself as the state attorney simply presents the case, while ALL questions and such are up to the Jury to ask on their own. Grand Jury panel is also selected for a term, and not for a particular case. The Grand Jury that will be presented with this case will have been chosen before this ever have happened.
The grand jury panel is where the case will get the most fair presentation. At actual trial, you have both sides controlling the whole presentation to a jury that just sits and watches, and you have alot of tactics such as character assassination at trial, that is not allowed in the grand jury panel.
Forceatowulf
G***n S**n*bi
Amazing.
You make up wild ass scenarios that all evidence points to the contrary, and we're the ones not being objective. Simply amazing.
Isn't the joke here that a grand jury will indict a ham sandwich if given the opportunity?
slidewinder
Banned
No, I mean that under Florida's law, Zimmerman possesses a "true immunity" from criminal and civil prosecution, a special, particular, legal status, and that the standards to overcome that immunity in order to issue an indictment aren't going to be like those normally presented to a grand jury at all.
Even if Trayvon "confronted" him, there was no reason for Zimmerman to shot.
There was no assault. You can see no injuries on Zimmerman. The funeral home guy saw no injuries on Trayvon's hands. Unless you are arguing he attacked Zimmerman with the bag of skittles.
People will find a way to blame the victim no matter what.
Blackace
if you see me in a fight with a bear, don't help me fool, help the bear!
fixed
BattleMonkey
Member
What are you talking about?
Megidolaon
Member
I didn't make it up. I'm saying what Zimmerman's story is.
It sounds like most of you haven't read much on his side of the story, since you seem so confused by my posts.
I am trying to be objective. I've searched for both sides of the story and both could be possible. ive made no assumptions. If I look like I want Zimmerman free then it's only becasue the arguments here against him are bad.
EDIT: Anyways I have to go to work and I'm getting sick of this case anyways. I'm not gonna post anymore until the Grand Jury convenes because it's just going around in circles so nobody should bother quoting me anymore :/
empty vessel
Member
Because police routinely violate people's constitutional rights. It's like air to them. The video shows that Zimmerman actually was under arrest (per the Fourth Amendment). He was clearly not free to leave.
Police routinely assert that people have not been arrested when they have been. They usually lie about this because whether a person is in custody can have relevance to the admissibility of statements they make. The longer the police can say a person was not detained, the more legal advantage they gain. So the default for the police is to say that a person at any given time was not under arrest.
Before being charged, his "immunity" only extends to not being arrested unless police have probable cause to believe the use of force was unlawful (which they asserted here, but still did not arrest him). After being charged, his "immunity" extends to a judicial determination of whether his use of force was justified. It really shouldn't affect the charging process much.
soundscream
Member
And Zimmermans story is believable with martin saying "Your going to die now" like some B movie villain.
So you believe the third story where zimmerman was assaulted by Trayvon and then struggled for his gun, eventually ending up in a justified killing? And I guess before that video came out you believed in the second story where Trayvon beat him up so badly that he had no choice but to use his gun? Very objective thinking sir.
I'm not sure if that's the third story or the fourth story. Oh wait, the media is just out to get Zimmerman and they keep misinterpreting what he means! Trayvon is just a hoodlum out to mess with a great guy that just wants to badly protect the community.
Most aren't supporting Zimmerman, but a lot of the "smoking gun evidence" that keeps coming out can be easily written off. The recent video doesn't necessarily prove anything to me, bruising may not appear for almost 24 hours on a face and not all broken noses bleed like a faucet. He could also have been cleaned up at the scene, which the responding EMT could shed light on.
To myself the racist "coon" comment he made sounds like he said "cold" and looking at the historical data it was 60 degrees at the time the incident occurred (which is cold in Florida, being a Florida boy myself).
Depending on what happened during those last few minutes of Trayvon's life (I think) will decide what sort of charges Zimmerman receives. He will be punished, but possibly not to the extent a lot of people want.
I haven't followed the "he said, she said" stuff coming out, but if it didn't come from an officer I would take it with a grain of salt until more reliable evidence surfaces.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
I'm interested in your experience. Were there any cases you did not indict? We indicted 100% of the cases brought to us for indictment. (The rest of the time was spend getting sworn testimony on record and authorizing subpoenas and such.
Also, I don't know if I'd say fair-- not like prosecution-friendly.
The Incarnation
Member
Oh so he really is being a contrarian? Or he was just using that as a front to say what he really means. This is worse than baconsammy.
Taking a purely objectivist approach to any case like this is a fool's errand. No one should have to be implied to be naive or ignorant because they make educated assumptions based on information we've actually been given. Otherwise the entire argument starts to revolve around unprovable theoreticals, in which case, why even bother with an argument at all.
Many people here believe the currently available evidence points to Zimmerman committing a crime. They are not necessarily stupid for thinking this. You are not necessarily intelligent for giving him the benefit of the doubt.
Megidolaon
Member
Actually that was when I only heard one side of the story. After hearing both I changed my mind. Now I'm not sure. Also, I'm a "she" not a "he"
BattleMonkey
Member
Our final count at the end of my nearly 7 month term was about 27 cases I believe. There was 2 cases I know we did not indict on, and they both were "self defense" shooting cases. One was a police shooting which we determined was justified. The other was a road rage incident in which self defense was claimed, we did no indict based on the evidence and witnesses provided to us which made it clear to us at least that it was justified.
Not sure where you served, but mine was in the South Florida area, so about 90% of what was presented to our grand jury panel were murder cases, mostly potential first degree cases. One of the cases we did indict on was a big story here a few years ago, and it was a self defense claim that just seemed completely bogus to us.
In the poster's defense I was all for locking Zimmerman up and throwing the key away too when the story first broke.
Too much misinformation has come out from both sides of the fence that I don't think I can objectively (with current info) "pick a side". I'm waiting to see more compelling evidence surface that Zimmerman intended to shoot Trayvon or what happened in the altercation between Zimmerman and Trayvon (was Zimmerman actually walking away like he claimed or did Zimmerman attack Trayvon?).
slidewinder
Banned
But the grand jury exists TO (potentially) charge him. As an alternative to other avenues. And as such, it'll still have to judge against the same, greatly elevated standards that those avenues do.
"Indict a ham sandwich"? Yes. Ham sandwiches rarely have immunity from prosecution. Zimmerman does, and that's why he hasn't been charged yet. The grand jury may yet indict him, but it will not be by deliberating about the same kind of standards that BattleMonkey and Ignatz are talking about; if it were, and he went to trial and were convicted, the conviction would be thrown out like nothing on appeal.
MightyHealthy
Banned
You're omitting the part where he:
- says that Trayvon is running away
- clearly is heard getting out of his vehicle
- tells the operator to have the police call him back
OK, now you're just trolling.
If anything, people are confused about Zimmerman's story because he keeps changing it.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
I was in IL. I served a month straight (that's how they do it on our county) and I think we saw 700-ish cases, but not all were for indictments. We never failed to indict. We had everything from retail theft to fraud to murder.
BattleMonkey
Member
Same standards as I'm talking about? You must have missed that I served for 7 months in FLORIDA. Zimmerman has no "immunity" that you keep talking about. There is no protection from being indicted for Zimmerman, his only "protection" is the Florida self defense laws, which it is up the grand jury to determine if those even apply to him and that he was justified.
Ah yea, grand jury's work differently depending on state. Theft and such does not go before a grand jury here in FL.
Probably because Swiss cheese has less holes in it. To be honest I am surprised Zimmerman isn't charged yet. The autopsy, phone calls, and witness testimony would be enough to get nearly anyone else charged (ignoring the fact he really should have been charged the night of the incident).
Objectively from my point of view:
- Clearly Zimmerman was the initiator. I have very little problem with him calling the police. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt that seeing a kid you dont know, wandering around in the rain, in a place there has been break ins etc. Fine, whatever. However getting out of his car and chasing him? No way. Right there he crosses the line.
- Seems that Zimmerman didnt listen to the dispatcher when they said dont chase him.
- The "coons" thing is retarded, sounds more like "fucking punks". Not sure how anyone got coons from that but ok.
- Also looks to me like the police investigated this. It's unclear what they need for an arrest but that seems to lay with the prosecutor, not the cops. I dont know if it's the laws or the circumstances or what, but you'd think an armed man chasing and ultimately killing an unarmed guy would warrant a trial.
- Finally, we dont know enough. So much has changed and come out on this story, both critical and totally irrelevant, that what is needed is another thorough investigation. It looks like that's what's happening.
People get really emotional over this, understandably. Personally, that picture of Trayvon's dad kissing him on the head get's me. It also annoys me when everyone assumes everyone involved not fully on "their side" is either a racist or an idiot.
- Clearly Zimmerman was the initiator. I have very little problem with him calling the police. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt that seeing a kid you dont know, wandering around in the rain, in a place there has been break ins etc. Fine, whatever. However getting out of his car and chasing him? No way. Right there he crosses the line.
- Seems that Zimmerman didnt listen to the dispatcher when they said dont chase him.
- The "coons" thing is retarded, sounds more like "fucking punks". Not sure how anyone got coons from that but ok.
- Also looks to me like the police investigated this. It's unclear what they need for an arrest but that seems to lay with the prosecutor, not the cops. I dont know if it's the laws or the circumstances or what, but you'd think an armed man chasing and ultimately killing an unarmed guy would warrant a trial.
- Finally, we dont know enough. So much has changed and come out on this story, both critical and totally irrelevant, that what is needed is another thorough investigation. It looks like that's what's happening.
People get really emotional over this, understandably. Personally, that picture of Trayvon's dad kissing him on the head get's me. It also annoys me when everyone assumes everyone involved not fully on "their side" is either a racist or an idiot.
Angry Fork
Member
Just saw the video of Zimmerman with no injuries.
No words. When is this shit going to be settled already? What the hell is going on where is Zimmerman now and what legal proceedings are going on at the moment?
No words. When is this shit going to be settled already? What the hell is going on where is Zimmerman now and what legal proceedings are going on at the moment?
Zoe
Member
Grand Jury isn't until the 10th, I believe.
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