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[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

Can some answer two questions I have?

#1: Can you choose monsters with hex proof for phantasmal image or phyrexian metamorph?

#2: Someone told me that planes walker's abilities always resolve? So like if my opponent plays tezzeret and then I lightning bolt him, can he use tezz's ability? Or is tezz's ability sorcery speed so my lightning bolt should kill him before he can use the ability?

Thanks.

 

[An-Det]

Can some answer two questions I have?

#1: Can you choose monsters with hex proof for phantasmal image or phyrexian metamorph?

#2: Someone told me that planes walker's abilities always resolve? So like if my opponent plays tezzeret and then I lightning bolt him, can he use tezz's ability? Or is tezz's ability sorcery speed so my lightning bolt should kill him before he can use the ability?

Thanks.

#1: yes, neither say target, so they ignore hexproof. Image is nice between of the illusion clause, so hexproof effectively negates that drawback of that copy.

#2: the opponent retains priority after Tezz resolves and the stack empties, so you have no opportunity to bolt it before he can use Tezz's ability, unless he passes priority (say to move to the next step).

 

[The Technomancer]

Yes, Phantasmal Image and the Metamorph can copy creatures with Hexproof because the ability isn't targeted

 

[echoshifting]

Can some answer two questions I have?

#1: Can you choose monsters with hex proof for phantasmal image or phyrexian metamorph?

Yes, because they both enter the battlefield as a copy of a creature; they never target a creature.

#2: Someone told me that planes walker's abilities always resolve? So like if my opponent plays tezzeret and then I lightning bolt him, can he use tezz's ability? Or is tezz's ability sorcery speed so my lightning bolt should kill him before he can use the ability?

No, they go on the stack like anything else. Also, they can only be played when a player could play a sorcery so they can't be activated as a response to a spell (like lightning bolt) under any circumstances.

 

[zethren]

Can some answer two questions I have?

#1: Can you choose monsters with hex proof for phantasmal image or phyrexian metamorph?

#2: Someone told me that planes walker's abilities always resolve? So like if my opponent plays tezzeret and then I lightning bolt him, can he use tezz's ability? Or is tezz's ability sorcery speed so my lightning bolt should kill him before he can use the ability?

Thanks.

1. Phantasmal Image: Yes.
1.2 Phyrexian Metamorph: Yes, it can target even an opponent's hexproof creature because Phyrexian Metamorph's ability does not actually target the creature.

2. The person who told you that is correct. When a player plays a planeswalker, unless the planeswalker is countered while still a spell being cast from his or her hand, they will have priority within the game to use the planeswalker's ability. Once that ability has been used, you may hit the planeswalker with whatever instant you have, but yes the walker's ability will always resolve first.

No, they go on the stack like anything else. Also, they can only be played when a player could play a sorcery so they can't be activated as a response to a spell (like lightning bolt) under any circumstances.

Are you sure? I'm fairly certain that if the planeswalker card (as a spell) is allowed to resolve and comes into play, the player with the walker has priority and the ability will resolve. I'll look further into this real quickly.

 

[dschalter]

1. Phantasmal Image: Yes, but only if you control the hexproof creature in question.
1.2 Phyrexian Metamorph: Yes, it can target even an opponent's hexproof creature because Phyrexian Metamorph's ability does not actually target the creature.

2. The person who told you that is correct. When a player plays a planeswalker, unless the planeswalker is countered while still a spell being cast from his or her hand, they will have priority within the game to use the planeswalker's ability. Once that ability has been used, you may hit the planeswalker with whatever instant you have, but yes the walker's ability will always resolve first.

Phantasmal Image's ability is not targeted either. The explanation of priority is spot on though.

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

Ok, that's what I thought of both. Someone was trying to tell me otherwise this past FNM. So you definitely get the ability at least once unless you pass priority but if they do it the next turn and say bolt it before you say you're activating the ability, it dies without the ability?

 

[zethren]

Phantasmal Image's ability is not targeted either.

Yeah, realized it a bit late. (Don't actually use Image personally, so for whatever reason assumed it was targeted.)

Ok, that's what I thought of both. Someone was trying to tell me otherwise this past FNM. So you definitely get the ability at least once unless you pass priority but if they do it the next turn and say bolt it before you say you're activating the ability, it dies without the ability?

Well now I'm questioning that ruling, but I'm researching what I can of it.

 

[An-Det]

Are you sure? I'm fairly certain that if the planeswalker card (as a spell) is allowed to resolve and comes into play, the player with the walker has priority and the ability will resolve. I'll look further into this real quickly.

Their abilities are activated abilities, so they use they stack and using the ability can be responded to. But you can't stop them from putting it onto the stack in the first place.

 

[echoshifting]

Ah, I had assumed lightning bolt was a legal cast when he played it. To clarify, you cannot lightning bolt a planeswalker until it has left the stack and entered the battleground, at which point the player who played the planeswalker will have priority. So, what happens next depends on who plays what when, depending on which player has priority.

Scenario A: The planeswalker leaves the stack, and the controlling player immediately activates one of the planewalker's abilities. You may respond to that by casting lightning bolt, but the planeswalker's ability will still resolve.

Scenario B: The planeswalker leaves the stack. The controlling player passes you priority, and you cast lightning bolt. The controlling player cannot legally activate the planeswalker's ability, because the stack is not empty and he may not play a sorcery at this time.

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

Their abilities are activated abilities, so they use they stack and can be responded to.

So if it's the middle of the second turn, tezz is still at 3 and it's the middle of my main phase and the person remembers they have a bolt and bolts at tezz, can I activate the ability or because they decided to bolt before I said to use the ability I can't use it? I'm just confused when nothing's happening if it still resolves.

Ah, I had assumed lightning bolt was a legal cast when he played it. To clarify, you cannot lightning bolt a planeswalker until it has left the stack and entered the battleground, at which point the player who played the planeswalker will have priority. So, what happens next depends on who plays what when, depending on which player has priority.

Scenario A: The planeswalker leaves the stack, and the controlling player immediately activates one of the planewalker's abilities. You may respond to that by casting lightning bolt, but the planeswalker's ability will still resolve.

Scenario B: The planeswalker leaves the stack. The controlling player passes you priority, and you cast lightning bolt. The controlling player cannot legally activate the planeswalker's ability, because the stack is not empty and he may not play a sorcery at this time.

So in Scenario A, tezz starts at 3, I +1 him, does he die or does he +1 before the bolt can hit him? He dies right? But his ability is still completed?

 

[zethren]

Okay, here is the ruling on activated abilities (which applies to Planeswalker loyalty abilities):

112.7a Once activated or triggered, an ability exists on the stack independently of its source. Destruction or removal of the source after that time won’t affect the ability. Note that some abilities cause a source to do something (for example, “Prodigal Pyromancer deals 1 damage to target creature or player”) rather than the ability doing anything directly. In these cases, any activated or triggered ability that references information about the source because the effect needs to be divided checks that information when the ability is put onto the stack. Otherwise, it will check that information when it resolves. In both instances, if the source is no longer in the zone it’s expected to be in at that time, its last known information is used. The source can still perform the action even though it no longer exists.

 

[echoshifting]

So in Scenario A, tezz starts at 3, I +1 him, does he die or does he +1 before the bolt can hit him? He dies right? But his ability is still completed?

He doesn't die because nothing leaves the battlefield until the stack is empty.

I'm...80% on this one. Hopefully others agree. I think that's how it would go.

 

[zethren]

So in Scenario A, tezz starts at 3, I +1 him, does he die or does he +1 before the bolt can hit him? He dies right? But his ability is still completed?

1. You play Tezz. Opponent allows him to resolve to the battlefield.
2. You activate his +1 ability, it goes on the stack.
3. Your opponent responds with a lightening bolt, it goes on the stack.
4. Your Tezz's +1 ability resolves.
5. Your opponent's bolt resolves.
6. Tezz is at 1 loyalty counter.

I believe is how it would go.

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

1. You play Tezz. Opponent allows him to resolve to the battlefield.
2. You activate his +1 ability, it goes on the stack.
3. Your opponent responds with a lightening bolt, it goes on the stack.
4. Your Tezz's +1 ability resolves.
5. Your opponent's bolt resolves.
6. Tezz is at 1 loyalty counter.

I believe is how it would go.

Ok, I knew about the ability always resolving, I wasn't sure when the counter gets added for whether it kills him or not.

How does priority work if it's a later turn and he's at 3 and the opponent randomly bolts during my main phase? I can't activate in response right? Am I allowed to activate it as long as it's the first thing on my turn? Would I have priority then once my main phase starts but lose it if I play a creature and then he bolts tezz?

 

[echoshifting]

I think zeth's explanation is more accurate.

How does priority work if it's a later turn and he's at 3 and the opponent randomly bolts during my main phase? I can't activate in response right? Am I allowed to activate it as long as it's the first thing on my turn? Would I have priority then once my main phase starts but lose it if I play a creature and then he bolts tezz?

This is basically scenario B from my post above. You always start each phase of your own turn with priority, though.

 

[ultron87]

So if it's the middle of the second turn, tezz is still at 3 and it's the middle of my main phase and the person remembers they have a bolt and bolts at tezz, can I activate the ability or because they decided to bolt before I said to use the ability I can't use it? I'm just confused when nothing's happening if it still resolves.

They can't bolt until you give them priority. So if you're in the middle of your main phase they can't just be like "bolt on Tezz!" out of the blue. Technically you have to say that you are done with your first main phase and say you are moving onto Declare Attackers before they can actually cast their spell.

They can however bolt him during your upkeep where you won't get any chance to use his ability.

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

I think zeth's explanation is more accurate.



This is basically scenario B from my post above.

So when do you lose priority? If it's say 3 turns later and he's at 3 and my main phase begins, I should be able to activate him right away without risking a bolt since I should have priority then right? Only after that I lose priority and he dies without the ability being activated?

They can't bolt until you give them priority. So if you're in the middle of your main phase they can't just be like "bolt on Tezz!" out of the blue. Technically you have to say that you are done with your first main phase and say you are moving onto Declare Attackers before they can actually cast their spell.

They can however bolt him during your upkeep where you won't get any chance to use his ability.

Really? Interesting. That changes how people told me it worked.

 

[zethren]

Ok, I knew about the ability always resolving, I wasn't sure when the counter gets added for whether it kills him or not.

How does priority work if it's a later turn and he's at 3 and the opponent randomly bolts during my main phase? I can't activate in response right? Am I allowed to activate it as long as it's the first thing on my turn? Would I have priority then once my main phase starts but lose it if I play a creature and then he bolts tezz?

You cannot activate a planeswalker's ability in response to a spell your opponent is casting.

If it is during one of your mainphases, you may activate a walker's ability. Your opponent may then cast an instant in response (like said above, when you pass priority), which would then become the scenario we were talking about (essentially, disregarding the casting of the walker bit).

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

You cannot activate a planeswalker's ability in response to a spell your opponent is casting.

If it is during one of your mainphases, you may activate a walker's ability. Your opponent may then cast an instant in response (like said above, when you pass priority), which would then become the scenario we were talking about (essentially, disregarding the casting of the walker bit).

So, they can't just randomly bolt during a main phase? I thought an instant can be cast anytime?

 

[divisionbyzorro]

1. You play Tezz. Opponent allows him to resolve to the battlefield.
2. You activate his +1 ability, it goes on the stack.
3. Your opponent responds with a lightening bolt, it goes on the stack.
4. Your Tezz's +1 ability resolves.
5. Your opponent's bolt resolves.
6. Tezz is at 1 loyalty counter.

I believe is how it would go.

I believe you got 4 and 5 backwards. Lightning Bolt resolves before the ability; but since the loyalty ticks up as the ability goes on the stack, Tezzeret still survives.

So, they can't just randomly bolt during a main phase? I thought an instant can be cast anytime?

Nope. This is actually one of my main frustrations with Duels of the Planeswalkers. Many plays end up hinging on players racing to mash the "cast" button.

 

[dschalter]

So, they can't just randomly bolt during a main phase? I thought an instant can be cast anytime?

you can only cast a spell or activate an ability when you have priority.

 

[ultron87]

So, they can't just randomly bolt during a main phase? I thought an instant can be cast anytime?

Yeah, nothing in Magic ever going to comes down to "who said they were casting a spell first". Someone always has priority and the other player can't do anything until they pass their priority by saying they either aren't doing anything or by casting a spell or using an ability.

A lot of this just gets shortcutted in normal games however.

The thing that actually taught me the way the rules actually work is by playing a few matches in Magic Online where priority passing is very clearly layed out for you.

I believe you got 4 and 5 backwards. Lightning Bolt resolves before the ability; but since the loyalty ticks up as the ability goes on the stack, Tezzeret still survives.

The +1 loyalty is technically a cost effect, so it happens immediately. It is the same as not being able to kill a creature before it gets sacced to pay for something or other similar type effects.

 

[echoshifting]

So, they can't just randomly bolt during a main phase? I thought an instant can be cast anytime?

It can be, but when you're playing Magic you basically have two options to keep track of priority:

1) Painstakingly pass a priority token or hit a chess timer every time you concede priority to the other player for some reason. Pain in the ass, don't do it.

2) If you intend to play something on your opponent's turn, ask "are you finished with this phase/action?"...and if you don't ask that, your opponent gets to respond by doing whatever they could have done had you not "stolen" priority. Also, when it's your turn, just as a matter of etiquette it's nice to let your opponent(s) know when you are preparing to move on to the next part of your turn. This will also prevent you from accidentally revealing your next play when your opponent says "woah, hold on, before you attack I want to play an instant."

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

you can only cast a spell or activate an ability when you have priority.

Ah, ok. That makes sense.

It can be, but when you're playing Magic you basically have two options to keep track of priority:

1) Painstakingly pass a priority token or hit a chess timer every time you concede priority to the other player for some reason. Pain in the ass, don't do it.

2) If you intend to play something on your opponent's turn, ask "are you finished with this phase/action?"...and if you don't ask that, your opponent gets to respond by doing whatever they could have done had you not "stolen" priority.

Ok, that was what I was kind of alluding to with "still activating the ability in response" since you never had a chance to do it yet so you can retroactively do something that you should have been able to.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

The +1 loyalty is technically a cost effect, so it happens immediately. It is the same as not being able to kill a creature before it gets sacced to pay for something or other similar type effects.

That's a much better way of explaining it. I was just clarifying that the lightning bolt resolves before the tutor effect.

 

[echoshifting]

Hey guys remember how much fun figuring out interrupt priority was

That was quite literally the sort of "random fuck you out of the blue nothing you can do about it" timing zaraki is describing here

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

Hey guys remember how much fun figuring out interrupt priority was

That was quite literally the sort of "random fuck you out of the blue nothing you can do about it" timing zaraki is describing here

:lol I forgot about those. I think they should bring those back!

 

[cooltrainer]

Adding or subtracting loyalty from planeswalkers is like paying a cost. It happens immediately and doesn't use the stack. So in your scenario, you activate Tezzeret +1, he is pushed up to 4 loyalty, opponent responds with bolt, bringing him down to 1, then his ability resolves. You retain priority basically anytime nothing is happening on your turn. Your opponent can't do anything unless you do something first. You pass priority when you play a spell/ability and you regain it after they resolve.

 

[echoshifting]

You also pass it at the end of each phase/step of your turn, and regain it at the beginning of the next phase/step (unless the last one was your end step of course).

 

[zethren]

His wording is this:

When Demon of Ashmouth enters the battlefield, exile it unless you sacrifice another creature.

The card does not specify any particular number of creatures, only that another creature must be sacrificed to prevent him from becoming exiled by entering the battlefield.

If you are worried about your opponent using targeted removal on whatever creature you plan to sac for the Demon, I would imagine that you could sacrifice multiple creatures and not have to worry about your opponent targeting your sac. If they then do use up two removal spells on the two creatures you sac for the Demon, then I'm cool with that too: They just used up 2 of their removal spells which will make me more comfortable when casting any of my bigger creatures later down the road.

Of course, to be comfortable saccing multiple creatures for the Demon you'd probably have to be playing a token based deck or a deck built specifically around the Demon of Ashmouth. But hey, I had a Demon of Death's Gate deck for a while so a deck around this new guy isn't too farfetched.

 

[cooltrainer]

If your opponent kills the creature you intend to sacrifice you can just choose another one (assuming you have one). You choose which one to sacrifice when the ability resolves; it's not a targeted effect.

 

[echoshifting]

Of course, to be comfortable saccing multiple creatures for the Demon you'd probably have to be playing a token based deck or a deck built specifically around the Demon of Ashmouth. But hey, I had a Demon of Death's Gate deck for a while so a deck around this new guy isn't too farfetched.

I think you'd just want to have a deck filled with undying creatures. Your opponent targeting your (undying) sac just means another (undying) sac.

 

[Pandaman]

So, they can't just randomly bolt during a main phase? I thought an instant can be cast anytime?

word of law vs how the game is played by 99% of the base.

 

[WanderingWind]

I think you'd just want to have a deck filled with undying creatures. Your opponent targeting your (undying) sac just means another (undying) sac.

Yup. Undying anything, Gravecrawlers and Motarpod seem great for him. I'm definitely going to use him and take out Mikaeus in my B/U Xombie deck.

 

[echoshifting]

There is simply no good way to use removal in that situation. Saving it for the demon is the worst possible thing you could do and yet I suspect what many will do anyway (at least, the first time they play the deck). The best you can hope for is that the player using the demon doesn't have two counter-free undying creatures out when he plays it, but if he doesn't he is a huge scrub anyway and doesn't deserve the demon's greatness.

 

[zethren]

There is simply no good way to use removal in that situation. Saving it for the demon is the worst possible thing you could do and yet I suspect what many will do anyway (at least, the first time they play the deck). The best you can hope for is that the player using the demon doesn't have two token-free undying creatures out when he plays it, but if he doesn't he is a huge scrub anyway and doesn't deserve the demon's greatness.

Lol
I fully intend to be sacking some Geralf's Messengers with this guy.

 

[The Technomancer]

I think you can use removal effectively if they only have one other creature, right?

 

[suffah]

Had a fun moment with the GF who despises magic, but loves to crack my boosters.

I had 4 packs and she knows which card is the rare.

Pack #1 - "Zombie Apocalypse, is that any good?" "Bah, awful awful awful. Open the next one."

Pack #2 - Random red junk rare.

Pack #3 - She's laughing and laughing. "What is it???" "ZOMBIE APOCALYPSE!" "..."

As she's opening pack #4, I pick up a wrapper with Sorin's picture on it and say "I want this guy!" She looks at the rare, does a double take on the wrapper I'm holding and says "Yep, you got him." I grab it out of her hands - Whoohoo! Sorin!

Thought the whole thing was damn funny. 2x Zombie Apocalypse...

 

[Type2]

So my roommates and I used to play edh/commander just about everyday. I ended up selling off my collection and just hanging on to key edh cards as well as two decks. It seems like we are losing interest in the format, and im not fond of innastrad at all. I may still draft when the new core set comes out and there is a cube in the house as well. Point is I feel like I may sell of the rest of my cards, anyone have experience with this(selling cards off)? Is ebay the best option? I only ask because I don't ever feel like I make a great sale compared to the value the other person is getting.

 

[Ravager61]

His wording is this:

When Demon of Ashmouth enters the battlefield, exile it unless you sacrifice another creature.

The card does not specify any particular number of creatures, only that another creature must be sacrificed to prevent him from becoming exiled by entering the battlefield.

If you are worried about your opponent using targeted removal on whatever creature you plan to sac for the Demon, I would imagine that you could sacrifice multiple creatures and not have to worry about your opponent targeting your sac. If they then do use up two removal spells on the two creatures you sac for the Demon, then I'm cool with that too: They just used up 2 of their removal spells which will make me more comfortable when casting any of my bigger creatures later down the road.

Of course, to be comfortable saccing multiple creatures for the Demon you'd probably have to be playing a token based deck or a deck built specifically around the Demon of Ashmouth. But hey, I had a Demon of Death's Gate deck for a while so a deck around this new guy isn't too farfetched.

You cannot sacrifice multiple creatures to the demon. "Another creature" implies 1 creature. It's basically the exact same wording as the "Champion a creature" mechanic from Lorwyn.

You can however, choose a new creature to sacrifice to the demon should your opponent target your original sacrifice. Basically, the Demon's triggered ability goes on the stack. The opponent can respond by using a removal spell. The removal spell resolves, your creature dies, and then the Demon's triggered ability resolves and you then just sacrifice a different creature.

 

[WanderingWind]

I may do up a couple of proxies of demon dude and try him out.

 

[Haly]

You can only counter a PW ability using something that counters "activated abilities", or Time Stop. When the PW resolves, the controller has priority, at which point they proceed to use one of the abilities if they're smart. Someone really stupid would cast something else first, giving his opponent the chance to Burn/Beast Within the PW.

 

[Ravager61]

Currently there is no way to counter planeswalker abilities. When the PW resolves, the controller has priority, at which point they proceed to use one of the abilities if they're smart. Someone really stupid would cast something else first, giving his opponent the chance to Burn/Beast Within the PW.

Stifle

 

[Haly]

Ninja'd :3

 

[Sinatar]

I did a DII draft yesterday and a DII today, got Hunstmasters in both.

1 more and I'll have a full 4.

 

[Haly]

I sold mine before it drops any lower.

I have no intention of building a RG deck, seems like it would cost me another $60-$100 just to get it up to par.

 

[WanderingWind]

I sold mine before it drops any lower.

I have no intention of building a RG deck, seems like it would cost me another $60-$100 just to get it up to par.

I'm hoping after AVR comes out he takes a nose dive. I would like a set myself.

 

[Sinatar]

Yea that's my debate I can trade the 3 I have for 60 tickets but then again it's an awesome card that I definitely would use.

EDIT: LOOOOOL!!

That makes 4.

 

[WanderingWind]

Yea that's my debate I can trade the 3 I have for 60 tickets but then again it's an awesome card that I definitely would use.

Eh. My thought is if you're going to use it, keep it. Bottom line is MTG is still a game we play to have fun (and frustrate ourselves), so regardless of the price, if it's fun to use, play with it until it's not.

Unless werewolfs come out crazy strong in AVR, it's going to go down in price though. It doesn't seem to have a place in anywhere but standard, so if that set doesn't give out some power werewolfs, I don't see it being much in demand for too long.