close to the edge
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Awesome game again on Purge's stream (WW vs Fnatic)
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Dota 2 Beta Thread: [Brewmaster]
- Thread starter Swag
- Start date
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It was disbanded due to salary issues apparently. If these guys aren't asking for much, they'll probably last unless they suck pretty bad.
Dreams-Visions
Member
Just a couple of quick thoughts:
1.) *and semicarries. I wasn't counting "semi-carries" or "people who can be built like a carry". That should have been obvious to you. Jugg and Clinkz are defined, actual *carries*, whether you like them or not. Adding in gankers and support to the discussion is disingenuous to the spirit and premise of the conversation.
2.) With bullet point #1 in mind, you're left with...Riki, Spectre and Weaver? Riki doesn't have an escape before level 6, brah. Not a legit one, anyway. Neither does Spectre, who can't teleport to one of his illusions until his haunt is up at level 6. In summary, you didn't double my collection of carries; you added one: Weaver, who I forgot about. And so my point remains: before level 6, most carries have the exact same problems that Drow has: almost all are susceptible to ganks before level 6 and need wards to be safe. Drow's chances of surviving a gank are actually better than several other heros because her silence can shut down the primary source of early gank success--chain skills/casting--for some period of time while she retreats to the safety of the t1 tower. Only 7 of the 25 or so carries have a real escape mechanism before level 6...and 4 of those mechanisms are completely shut down by early sentry wards, which any intelligent team should have up against Clinkz/Brood/Weaver/Riki when appropriate.
3.) The only other carry I haven't covered that you listed is Destroyer, who doesn't have an escape from a 3-man gank that's any better than Drow's in the early game (which was part of my overall point about singling out Drow as weak because she's supposedly more easily ganked than other carries)...in fact, i'd argue that his escapability is decidedly worse that Drow's early...and I'm pretty sure he's squishier than Drow throughout. OD's level 1 astral mine as well not even exist it's so short.
If it works like Dota 1, Mana Burn overrides skadi until they have 0 mana.
Dreams-Visions
Member
I'm simply going by their technical definitions. No more or less in this conversation, as you can build damn near anyone in the game into a "semi-carry". I've seen carry Omniknights for fucks sake.
You can remove Jugg if you like and my point remains. My thoughts certainly are not dependent upon Jugg, who is actually one of the few defined carries who DOES have a legit escape. There are only so many bonafied carries that have a legit escape before level 6 which, again, is why I'm not ready to buy the criticism that there are tons of carries* that are so much better and less prone to ganks than Drow in the early game. Her range keeps her safer than most, her silence gives her early survivability, and wards--a requirement for any side-laning carry--are a must any way you slice it for the overwhelming majority of carries* in this game. And she's a monster mid/late game.*as defined by their primary role in the game
Sadly we're already at this point, although they haven't revealed who the 5th person is on the roster, I'm sure Jeyo isn't about to leave CoL to go play on SK, given their recent successes. Need to drop Sayuri and maybe get some of the ItsGosu guys when that team eventually disbands, which should be pretty soon.
I think redundancy won this game for fnatic. WW pinned all of its hopes onto the ridiculously farmed Antimage (at least in practice), whereas fnatic's Morphling had a farmed Tinker and Queen of Pain backing him up with their own sheepsticks. Even if WW somehow brought the Morphling down, fnatic was still capable of sidelining the AM and winning a teamfight.
Slesh saying what I was thinking throughout the entire endgame. BKB for AM!
Slesh saying what I was thinking throughout the entire endgame. BKB for AM!
I'm simply going by their technical definitions. No more or less in this conversation, as you can build damn near anyone in the game into a carry. I've seen carry Omniknights for fucks sake.
*as defined by their primary role in the game
Well your definition of carry is terrible then, because I'll take Mirana/Slardar/Bounty Hunter over your definition of a "real carry" any day of the week.
Only the spin doesn't scale: the crits obviously gets better with damage, the healing ward heals a percentage of your max hp (ok, this is debatable) and the ult gets better with AS.
He's still not that good but yeah.
Dreams-Visions
Member
"your definition"? So now I created the definition? lol ok. If we can't work with a premise as basic as "primary character role = carry"--which has been my context since I first posed the question--then what's the point? Otherwise, it's just moving the goal posts and changing the context of the discussion in the middle of it. I'll take this to mean I'm right in the context of pre-defined carries and be done with this side conversation. It's fine if there are others whose primary roles are gankers or support or whatever that you prefer to build into semi-carries for the team (hell, I build quasi-carry Sven, Wind, Lina and Invoker all the time), but that wasn't the premise of this discussion in the first place.
Yes, you're quite correct that there are lots of characters in the game that have an escape mechanism, many of which can be built into quasi/pseudo-carries to fill a role on the team similar to Drow's. But that was never the context of the of discussion, though. Sorry if that wasn't clear to you from the beginning, but it certainly was to me when I posed the question.
Like I said, until you give me a concrete definition of a carry, your pre-defined definition is nothing but smoke and mirrors because you refuse to specify why I should classify Anti-Mage as a carry, but not Mirana. Mirana's primary role is a carry, Slardar's primary role is a carry, Furion's primary role is a carry. If you refuse to tell me why these characters are not carries, then we really can't have an argument about escape mechanisms for carries because you can't even define what it means to be a carry.
close to the edge
Member
That is pretty awesome. Need to try this some time with Prophet.
He's really flexible in that regard, can fill the role the team needs (and in the case of competitive play, he has).
He can, but Slardar is very strong as a carry because of his stuns and amp damage.
Well yeah but I would classify him as a semi-carry specifically because carrying is not his main role even if it's one he fulfills very well.
For me, the difference between hard carry and semi-carry is how versatile a hero is. If hero X cannot do anything without farm, and if he can only kill with farm, then that says Hard carry to me. If a hero is a ganker/initiator/support/pusher, but with a moderate amount of farm can assume a carry role, then that says semi-carry.
For me, the difference between hard carry and semi-carry is how versatile a hero is. If hero X cannot do anything without farm, and if he can only kill with farm, then that says Hard carry to me. If a hero is a ganker/initiator/support/pusher, but with a moderate amount of farm can assume a carry role, then that says semi-carry.
Would just like to point out that all the 3 heroes you pointed out have great escape mechanics even before they hit level 6.
Riki can blink strike to other ally heroes and has a Smoke Screen giving an AOE silence and Attack, Movement Speed Slow and Miss Chance which is annoying as fuck.
Weaver, Shukuchi? I don't even know.
Spectral Dagger, you go into trees and hide where a lot of heroes can't follow you.
Ganking these heroes are a pain the arse even before they hit level 6.
Schweinehund
Member
I don't think I've ever played game as slar where I had blink and succeeded. Maybe I'm doing it wrong.
In hon it seemed to work better because his aoe stun seems to do way more in that game.
close to the edge
Member
LOL AM blinks into the Black Hole. Holy shit.
Empire's Chen is playing an incredible game.
Empire's Chen is playing an incredible game.
Your original argument is for the viability of Drow as a carry supported by the questionable viability of a level 1 or 2 silence as a situational escape skill while you are low-leveled that you are able to consistently land.
At this point I think you are arguing for the sake of arguing and winning a written argument. I don't think your intent is to enrich yourself with knowledge from other people's opinions or experience, nor foster discussion of the different carry heroes at all. I would suggest you actually try the other heroes out too, as you might enjoy even more success with them, especially with all the recent good advice in the thread.
At this point I think you are arguing for the sake of arguing and winning a written argument. I don't think your intent is to enrich yourself with knowledge from other people's opinions or experience, nor foster discussion of the different carry heroes at all. I would suggest you actually try the other heroes out too, as you might enjoy even more success with them, especially with all the recent good advice in the thread.
IHeartTSwift
Member
Stick with your solo mid CM without MIDAS. That was really good last night.
close to the edge
Member
Wow, what a Black Hole. So good.
Only because WR was trash.
Also I could've went Midas and not hurt my game at all!
I didn't because I was really tired that night and wanted to play safe.
He can provide great single-target initiation, especially against slippery targets like Weaver, Riki, Bounty Hunter, Clinkz, etc. Not the same kind of initiation provided by an Earthshaker or a Sand King, but it can be a great way to find an opening for a push (especially if you kill a support with a big item like a Mekansm or Pipe).
Slardar, thanks to his MS buff, doesn't actually need Blink to initiate. Sure it helps a lot, especially in certain situations, but most of the time I just pop it, loop around, then BKB and laugh as they scatter like pigeons.
Earthstrike
Member
When I hover over my gold when I'm dead, I have reliable and unreliable gold. What is the difference between the two?
Banning 4 HoNGaf people damn, Ksan, Kap, Seb & bzm. All lanes lost but where is the 5th carry? invis no doubt Riki player.
Freakinchair
Member
oh shit time to lay low guyz
The twist is that you're Riki and late to the teamfight (as usual).
The twist is that you're Riki and late to the teamfight (as usual).
Unreliable gold is deducted when you died, whereas reliable gold isn't.
When you buy items, unreliable gold is deducted before reliable gold.
When you buy back, reliable gold is deducted before unreliable gold (I think)
Unreliable gold is attained from neutrals, creeps, towers kills.
Reliable gold is from bounties on heroes, and from Hand of Midas.
Unreliable gold is spent first when buying items, and can be lost when you die.
Reliable gold can never be lost from deaths, and is used last when buying items.
http://www.playdota.com/mechanics/Gold
How is such a rude, immature, and condescending post not bannable?
Brewmaster seems like my kind of character, I can't wait to try him out.
He's definitely a fast mofo, but the element of surprise a Blink Dagger offers can be pretty huge (being that it offers the victim and his team very little time to react).
That fight after taking the mid barracks really cost them, really hangs in the balance.
It's not significant. You need a LOT of attack speed to really make it work. So technically you're right, crit isn't his only scaling skill, but they both scale very poorly.
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The problem really is that IceFrog is slowly phasing out hard carries that just farm all game and contribute nothing until late (which is a good thing). There are very, very, very few of these left. You can argue that a lot of "carries" are actually "semi-carries" and the other way around, too. This is awesome, because the route you take will depend on your chosen skill build and item build. Diversity is great. Some carries have dual purposes, such as tanking, aoe damage, initiation, pushing, etc.
Just gonna browse through Playdota real quick and write down every hero that has consistently been played as an >AUTOATTACK< carry (note that there are heroes that could be considered carries such as Death Prophet and Necrolyte who use their spells to carry) (Bolded are what I consider "hard" carries, that is, they contribute nothing else other than autoattack carrying and also desperately need farm)...
[Tank]Alchemist
[Push/Tank]Dragon Knight
[Tank]Bristleback
[Gank]Legion Commander
[Gank]Chaos Knight
[Gank]Slardar
[Hard]Naix
[Push]Lycanthrope
[Tank]Skeleton King
[Hard]Antimage
[Hard]Sniper
[Gank]Juggernaut
[Push/Tank]Lone Druid
[AOE]Luna
[Hard]Morphling
[Push/Anti-BKB]Naga Siren
[Hard]Phantom Lancer
[Gank]Mirana
[Gank]Stealth Assassin
[Hard/Anti-Carry]Troll Warlord
[Hard]Drow Ranger
[Gank]Ursa Warrior
[Gank]Bounty Hunter
[Gank]Templar Assassin
[Gank]Bloodseeker
[Gank/Push]Clinkz
[Push]Broodmother
[Hard]Weaver
[Hard]Phantom Assassin
[AOE]Shadow Fiend
[Push]Terrorblade
[Hard]Spectre
[Gank]Viper
[Push/Gank/Outlevel]Meepo
[Tank]Razor
[Gank]Slark
[Hard]Faceless Void
[Hard]Medusa
[Anti-Spell]Silencer
[Hard]Outworld Destroyer
Okay, look at how FEW hard carries are left in the game. How many of them have escape mechanisms?
Naix - Magic immunity, Slow
Antimage - Blink
Sniper - Weak slow
Morphling - Pseudo-Blink
Phantom Lancer - Invis
Drow Ranger - Silence
Troll Warlord - Miss Chance, Slow
Weaver - Invis, speed boost
Phantom Assassin - Blink Strike, Slow, Gank Alert
Spectre - Spectral Dagger
Faceless Void - Blink
Medusa - Mana Shield
Outworld Destroyer - Pseudo-Stun
Okay... Let's remove all the carries with true escape mechanisms. That leaves us with...
Sniper
Drow
Troll Warlord
Medusa
Outworld Destroyer
I see a common thread between these 5 carries. They're almost never picked.
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Also because Swag is banned, I will be posting the OT2.
Schweinehund
Member
Ouch, them bans.
I'm assuming they're temporary, if not, who is going to take over the OT?
Oh, didn't see milkman's last line.
I'm assuming they're temporary, if not, who is going to take over the OT?
I nominate duesy
Oh, didn't see milkman's last line.
It all looks the same to me.- Status