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Dota 2 Beta Thread: [Brewmaster]

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finalozzo said:
I don't know, probably they missed it. = (

very nice game btw, still it's not over.
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LOL. I just read the post. How sad... So much hate over such silly things.

Anyway, this game is turning out to be great! Tobi makes everything so much better as usual.

edit: AND a shitty way to finish. Hate these finishes....... :\
 
Really close game, mtw would have been in better shape had they slowed down the rate at which they lost towers and avoided some needless Spectre deaths. She wasn't even insanely farmed, but Ravage and Black Hole gave her a lot to work with.
 
Uh, did I just end up causing a 4th of HoN GAF to get banned? I left to pick up my car from work (Battery died, Had to walk for 2 hours to get home last night :/), and now I see quiet a few people banned. Did they do something else?

Onto matters of the game, on of the Volunteer Mod on the Dota Dev fourm is backing me up with how the Haste rune should work, saying he agrees wtih Haste Rune giving you unimpeded max move speed is a bug, and you should be able to get slowed while having it. But we could just both be wrong, I'm checking though patch notes now to see if there was a change.

On the other side of the coin, the Dota 2 Wiki is wrong with how Diffusal Blade's Slow Works (Saying it just 15%). Its actually far more complex and I am glad I asked.

How Purge Abilities Work (Really, it is likely one of the more convoluted abilities that is never explained fully in game):
http://www.playdota.com/forums/showthread.php?t=406048
 
Drkirby said:
Uh, did I just end up causing a 4th of HoN GAF to get banned? I left to pick up my car from work (Battery died, Had to walk for 2 hours to get home last night :/), and now I see quiet a few people banned. Did they do something else?

Onto matters of the game, on of the Volunteer Mod on the Dota Dev fourm is backing me up with how the Haste rune should work, saying he agrees wtih Haste Rune giving you unimpeded max move speed is a bug, and you should be able to get slowed while having it. But we could just both be wrong, I'm checking though patch notes now to see if there was a change.

On the other side of the coin, the Dota 2 Wiki is wrong with how Diffusal Blade's Slow Works (Saying it just 15%). Its actually far more complex and I am glad I asked.

How Purge Abilities Work (Really, it is likely one of the more convoluted abilities that is never explained fully in game):
http://www.playdota.com/forums/showthread.php?t=406048
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The thread even says that haste should be purgeable. As in, just takes it off completely. The last time I tried that as shadow demon it didn't remove the haste rune at all.
 
They have absolute faith in their teamfight, I suppose. Like just then. Might be looking at Kunkka + Enchantress handling dps going into lategame?
 
Artanisix said:
*snip*

Okay... Let's remove all the carries with true escape mechanisms. That leaves us with...
Sniper
Drow
Troll Warlord
Medusa
Outworld Destroyer


I see a common thread between these 5 carries. They're almost never picked.

.
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Excellent post btw, hurt to snip it. However, just wanted to comment on Medusa. Isnt she still one of the common DotA1 carry picks? I could be wrong, but I remember watching pre-DotA2 and most carries picked were AM, Morphling, Medusa.
 
She's fallen out of favor recently, not sure why though.
 
SaberVulcan said:
Excellent post btw, hurt to snip it. However, just wanted to comment on Medusa. Isnt she still one of the common DotA1 carry picks? I could be wrong, but I remember watching pre-DotA2 and most carries picked were AM, Morphling, Medusa.
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nope. Medusa was good when trilanes were still delicious. Nowadays she's not even considered in ban/picks. Most popular carries in dota1 are ck, naga in terms of "hard carries", but even these are played like semi-carries, alongside heroes like slardar, tinker, qop
 
1.09 said:
nope. Medusa was good when trilanes were still delicious. Nowadays she's not even considered in ban/picks. Most popular carries in dota1 are ck, naga in terms of "hard carries", but even these are played like semi-carries, alongside heroes like slardar, tinker, qop
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Ah interesting. I did see the rise of CK (which is awesome, as hes one of my favorites), and Siren (which tbh I don't really understand) but didnt realize Medusa fell out of favor.

With the recent minor buff to Morphling and him going back into favor on teams, I wonder if Medusa will get some love too. I still think she will be the best counter to Phantom Lancer and other illusion-dependent heroes. IMO they should just rework/remove Split Shot into something more useful.
 
Dreams-Visions said:
Just a couple of quick thoughts:

1.) *and semicarries. I wasn't counting "semi-carries" or "people who can be built like a carry". That should have been obvious to you. Jugg and Clinkz are defined, actual *carries*, whether you like them or not. Adding in gankers and support to the discussion is disingenuous to the spirit and premise of the conversation.

2.) With bullet point #1 in mind, you're left with...Riki, Spectre and Weaver? Riki doesn't have an escape before level 6, brah. Not a legit one, anyway. Neither does Spectre, who can't teleport to one of his illusions until his haunt is up at level 6. In summary, you didn't double my collection of carries; you added one: Weaver, who I forgot about. And so my point remains: before level 6, most carries have the exact same problems that Drow has: almost all are susceptible to ganks before level 6 and need wards to be safe. Drow's chances of surviving a gank are actually better than several other heros because her silence can shut down the primary source of early gank success--chain skills/casting--for some period of time while she retreats to the safety of the t1 tower. Only 7 of the 25 or so carries have a real escape mechanism before level 6...and 4 of those mechanisms are completely shut down by early sentry wards, which any intelligent team should have up against Clinkz/Brood/Weaver/Riki when appropriate.

3.) The only other carry I haven't covered that you listed is Destroyer, who doesn't have an escape from a 3-man gank that's any better than Drow's in the early game (which was part of my overall point about singling out Drow as weak because she's supposedly more easily ganked than other carries)...in fact, i'd argue that his escapability is decidedly worse that Drow's early...and I'm pretty sure he's squishier than Drow throughout. OD's level 1 astral mine as well not even exist it's so short.
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1.By including juggernaut, clinkz and brood you were including semicarries in your original post. Brood is a pusher primarily, and a semi-carry secondarily, and is the hardest carry of the three. Clinkz is a ganker/pusher and then a semicarry, juggernaut is pretty much just a semicarry and nothing else. All of the characters I listed in my first category except for bounty hunter, and most of the ones I listed in the others are harder carries than those three. You can't define one level of carry and then go back on it because you don't like the word for them.

2. Spectre's dagger is an escape. There are very few characters that can cut down enough trees to make it meaningless. (Beastmaster, Enigma, Batrider, Windrunner) Riki has a 40% miss chance and 6 second silence that also slows as well as a 700 range blink by level 2-3, both of those are good escapes if played right. You can easily force any would be gankers to walk through the smoke which is more than enough time to get out of their stun ranges once they get out of the silence.

3. Except for a level 1 first blood attempt, your point is pretty much invalid. OD will always max his banish first, not only does that mean he can use it to banish a potential ganker, more importantly he can use it to dodge stuns (which is still viable level 1), and the opponent he has been laning against will have a significantly diminished mana pool because of constant int steal as well as a lower level than the destroyer.
 
Great game for mtw. Even though they didn't end it early, they amassed quite a hoard of gold and put it to devastating use.


Artanisix said:
The problem really is that IceFrog is slowly phasing out hard carries that just farm all game and contribute nothing until late (which is a good thing). There are very, very, very few of these left. You can argue that a lot of "carries" are actually "semi-carries" and the other way around, too. This is awesome, because the route you take will depend on your chosen skill build and item build. Diversity is great. Some carries have dual purposes, such as tanking, aoe damage, initiation, pushing, etc.
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Meant to comment on this last page, but got distracted by awesome dota. I agree, it's great that there are so many heroes who can wear different hats, depending on a team's need and objectives.
 
SaberVulcan said:
Shadow Demon and Kunkka lanes is a recent trend. Also, Kunkka just got several buffs to pretty much everything.
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But why Kunkka specifically? Couldn't any carry synergize well with Shadow Demon? Banish does allow Kunkka to hit his Torrent, but the damage amplification could help any carry with some sort of cc - say Skeleton King's stun or Lifestealer's slow. Is his popularity solely due to the preference of whoever first used the combo with Shadow Demon?
 
BeesEight said:
But why Kunkka specifically? Couldn't any carry synergize well with Shadow Demon? Banish does allow Kunkka to hit his Torrent, but the damage amplification could help any carry with some sort of cc - say Skeleton King's stun or Lifestealer's slow. Is his popularity solely due to the preference of whoever first used the combo with Shadow Demon?
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My guess is that Torrent is just so much better then a lot of other spells out there on a carry, including Hellfire Blast and Open Wounds. Kunkka also provides the role of great AOE damage in a team fight with 3 of his spells, something that no other carry-like hero possesses, and X is a great counter to blinking heroes.

Kunkka was in favor for a very long time, I am guessing that the buffs he got just made teams take a second look at him and realized his potential. I don't think he will be a cookie cutter hero just yet, but he has the tools to be great in this push/AOE style-meta. His biggest problem is just that Kunkka relies on other heroes to be 100% effective, such as Shadow Demon, Enigma, Darkseer, and so on.

Also: Zeus is being played right now http://www.joindota.com/en/live/tobiwan I can't remember the last time I saw him outside of pugs.
 
BeesEight said:
But why Kunkka specifically? Couldn't any carry synergize well with Shadow Demon? Banish does allow Kunkka to hit his Torrent, but the damage amplification could help any carry with some sort of cc - say Skeleton King's stun or Lifestealer's slow. Is his popularity solely due to the preference of whoever first used the combo with Shadow Demon?
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Supports with actual stuns and slows work better with other carries, because they do their damage mostly through constant autoattacks, and during the whole banish those characters are protected from autoattack damage. A VS with damage aura and stun or a Crystal Maiden with both an ensnare and a slow, along with many other support heroes would allow the examples you mentioned to deal far more damage. Kunkka does huge burst damage with tidebringer and torrent, and a correctly timed Banish + torrent also allows for enough leadup to hit kunkka's ult as well.
 
Viper is so weird (and cyclical). Appears prominently at a big competition, vanishes, appears again at another big competition, rinse, repeat.
 
I'm still unsure of what even went down. Did it have to do with stuff outside of this thread or just the last few pages in general?

Anyway, I really need to try out some melee heroes, but I am really afraid to use them. I just feel so ineffectual without the range to do the harass/lh/denies that I am used to doing.
 
Irish said:
I'm still unsure of what even went down. Did it have to do with stuff outside of this thread or just the last few pages in general?

Anyway, I really need to try out some melee heroes, but I am really afraid to use them. I just feel so ineffectual without the range to do the harass/lh/denies that I am used to doing.
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I think calling someone autistic and unnecessarily insulting people is enough to get banned.

Even though its a dota/arts/moba thread and their game communities are terrible, it doesn't give people a free pass to do whatever they want on gaf.
 
Drkirby said:
And if you read it, now you know how Purge fully works.

Actually, I could just sum it up quickly. "Removes all buff, reduces movement speed to 100, you gradually regain it."
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Yes I read it and your previous thread link. Yours is much more succinct. I do have one question about purge though.

The Diffusal Blade Purge lasts for 4 seconds and has an update frequency of 5, right? During those 4 seconds, they slowly regain their full movement speed, right? I think I got that, but What does the update frequency portion of this mean in real time? Does it mean that over 5 equal intervals over that 4 second Purge duration (every .8 seconds) they will recover a portion of their movement and attack speed? Or does the recovery begin AFTER the 4 second Purge duration where the update frequency is something different entirely? What is a "tick" (you said the word but left it kinda ambiguous)?

I guess I'm not really following the "frequency duration" formula and when it begins. Too many undefined measures of time. Help!

And related: can a Diffusal Blade Purge be cancelled by another Diffusal Blade Purge?
 
Dreams-Visions said:
Yes I read it and your previous thread link. Yours is much more succinct. I do have one question about purge though.

The Diffusal Blade Purge lasts for 4 seconds and has an update frequency of 5, right? During those 4 seconds, they slowly regain their full movement speed, right? I think I got that, but What does the update frequency portion of this mean in real time? Does it mean that over 5 equal intervals over that 4 second Purge duration (every .8 seconds) they will recover a portion of their movement and attack speed? Or does the recovery begin AFTER the 4 second Purge duration where the update frequency is something different entirely? What is a "tick" (you said the word but left it kinda ambiguous)?

I guess I'm not really following the "frequency duration" formula and when it begins. Too many undefined measures of time. Help!

And related: can a Diffusal Blade Purge be cancelled by another Diffusal Blade Purge?
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Actually, I think you could cancel the Purge by Purging your self.


Here is how the Frequency related into movement speed
1: 0%/100%
2: 0%/50%/100%
3: 0%/33%/66%/100%
4: 0%/25%/50%/75%/100%
5: 0%/20%/40%/60%/80%/100%

The length of the ticks is determined by the duration divided by the frequency number. For example, Diffusal blade slow ticks every .8 seconds. The reason you can still move during 0% speed is that the lower bound of movement is capped at 100.
 
Drkirby said:
Actually, I think you could cancel the Purge by Purging your self.


Here is how the Frequency related into movement speed
1: 0%/100%
2: 0%/50%/100%
3: 0%/33%/66%/100%
4: 0%/25%/50%/75%/100%
5: 0%/20%/40%/60%/80%/100%

The length of the ticks is determined by the duration divided by the frequency number. For example, Diffusal blade slow ticks every .8 seconds. The reason you can still move during 0% speed is that the lower bound of movement is capped at 100.
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(Score:5, Insightful)



Artanisix said:
[long post]

Okay, look at how FEW hard carries are left in the game. How many of them have escape mechanisms?

Naix - Magic immunity, Slow
Antimage - Blink
Sniper - Weak slow
Morphling - Pseudo-Blink
Phantom Lancer - Invis
Drow Ranger - Silence
Troll Warlord - Miss Chance, Slow
Weaver - Invis, speed boost
Phantom Assassin - Blink Strike, Slow, Gank Alert
Spectre - Spectral Dagger
Faceless Void - Blink
Medusa - Mana Shield
Outworld Destroyer - Pseudo-Stun

Okay... Let's remove all the carries with true escape mechanisms. That leaves us with...
Sniper
Drow
Troll Warlord
Medusa
Outworld Destroyer


I see a common thread between these 5 carries. They're almost never picked.
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Excellent insight. Definitely the clarification/rationale I was looking for. Thanks for that.
 
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