tkscz
Member
I was looking for this earlier.
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I was looking for this earlier.
Is it his outfit, or the old computer monitor?
-Pyromaniac-
Member
or the fact that it has been used a zillion times the past week
Everything. Who is this? Why the smug face? Where does it come from? Why does this represent NeoGAF!?
Just... why!?
shadyspace
Banned
It's ridiculous. Just like GAF.
TheGreatMightyPoo
Banned
GameplayWhore
Member
It's more than that. I'm not just talking about diminishing returns in terms of how much people notice improvements. I'm also talking about the diminishing returns of technology. In order to make the expected huge jump in performance for the current generation, the Xbox 360 had to draw roughly twice as much as the original Xbox did, and the Playstation 3 used something like four times the power of the Playstation 2. The problem is that they can't go around with consoles next generation that draw 400W or more, and beyond that, it'd get even sillier. So they'll have to start making the choice of waiting longer and longer per generation or living with smaller and smaller boosts in performance.
* caveat: The hard drive makes up for some of the difference in power, though not most of it.
lordfroakie
Member
You young ins need to watch his mob movies
Maybe when you only look at racing games.
But when you look at fps, the leap this gen is probably the biggest:
Gone from this:
To this:
To this:
Which is why I personally believe the gap between Wii U and XB3/PS4 is going to be much smaller than PS2 vs Xbox, that sort of difference was not only performance based (xbox being ~2X the specs) but PS2 couldn't do lighting effects, and the texture effects that made xbox games like Halo and Halo 2 stand out so well.
I really think not bringing GCN to the Wii U can also shrink the chip drastically, which is what I've been talking about with GCN being a heavy architecture, a smaller chip can run at higher clocks without taking a large hit to the TDP... Something greater than 640sp @ 600Mhz should be completely possible.
bgassassin
Member
I guess for me it's the context of how you're saying it that's throwing me off. As I said before I don't see AMD making a non-GCN GPU at 28nm. At the same time I don't see a similar philosophy to CUDA by "stripping away GCN". VLIW4 didn't show it. At the same "stripping away GCN" the ALUs wouldn't/shouldn't change meaning their performance should still be the same making there be no gain from taking that away. IMO this is where the flaw seems to be coming from and is working more off of assumption. I mean VLIW5 sounds like what you are talking about and it saw poor ALU utilization after the change to DX10. I guess we are saying the same thing in different words as the GPU as I see it would have the "GCN cut out", but I don't see some kind of performance gain because of it.
See above.
No, I gave a reason you're clearly ignoring. As I said, I gave it that clock based on the fact that Nintendo doesn't use high clock speeds. That's not just a random assumption I made. And while it would be nice for them to push for a higher speed while using a smaller process, there's nothing there to say they will other than hope.
I'm assuming you didn't mean to quote EC as he wasn't the one I responded to. That said I don't see how you got that from DC's post. He focused more on cost, heat, and size. Not graphical abilities.
This suggests you didn't see some of my other posts while still assuming some kind of performance gain just from taking away GCN's compute functionality. Although my assumed max gap range would be 1080p on high settings vs 720p on low settings. But it seems you're trying to create a max gap that will be much smaller than what it will be and I'm not seeing the logic behind your support for that.
See, if most Wii U games were to look like that, I'd be satisfied.
Portugeezer
Member
I agree, on PC in terms of visuals there is a noticeable difference but nothing that looks major enough to warrant new expensive hardware, nothing that would seem like PS2 to PS3 even.
However PC games are limited themselves by older hardware, most PC games are made to run on older hardware, especially if it's a console port/multiplatform game; you can't hide low polygons. When console generation leaps, then PC usually follows and ups it's lowest common denominator in hardware. Of course there will always be games which require the latest and greatest on PC. but these are never the norm, mostly exceptions.
SolidSnakex
Member
Even if you only use racing games you can still see huge leaps forward with visuals
I also think Coolwhip's argument about PC games is off. Those devs rarely have the budget that console devs have and they also work on constantly evolving hardware. Console devs are able to sit on the exact same hardware over a 5-6 year period where they're really able to exploit what it's capable doing.
GameplayWhore
Member
What's your idea of a reasonable upper limit to TDP in a console (or particularly in the expected Wii U form factor)?
I'd be satisfied if they looked like the first one but were insanely good games.
Gahiggidy
My aunt & uncle run a Mom & Pop store, "The Gamecube Hut", and sold 80k WiiU within minutes of opening.
The next person who interviews Reggie or someone else from Nintendo really needs to ask them flat out what the power draw from Wii U will be. Tell him that people like to plan ahead for their electricity budget and with the system launching to year they have to have the tdp figure. American families struggling to get by will appreciate this info.
Spieler Eins
Member
GameplayWhore
Member
I'm embarrassed that that's all you know him from.
Give some respect for Leo Getz!
this is a troll for all the Goodfellas fans
TheGreatMightyPoo
Banned
No you wouldn't.
-Pyromaniac-
Member
reggie has no idea I bet. The only thing he seems to know is the buzzword "1080p".
EatChildren
Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
This was the generation of shaders coming into thier own, and a tremendous leap over the last.
GameplayWhore
Member
You wouldn't.
edit: For clarification, if all Wii U games looked like the first pic, even if they were each the GOTY, I admit I would be disappointed at all the bitching on forums and among my friends and such. So that is, in effect, a lack of complete satisfaction.
-Pyromaniac-
Member
indeed. As for next generation....
TheGreatMightyPoo
Banned
Gameplay and design matters most but no way in this fucking HD age and this year would I be happy with games that looked like THAT.
Gahiggidy
My aunt & uncle run a Mom & Pop store, "The Gamecube Hut", and sold 80k WiiU within minutes of opening.
...will be known for gpus with advanced fixed-function lighting.
Metroid Hunter
Banned
I'm so hungry for news...
TheGreatMightyPoo
Banned
And since we're on the topic of graphical leaps.
Can't wait to find out.
It'll probably be hard to compare as the style will be totally different than the tech demo.
However, maybe they will see how much praise the demo got and make it resemble that art but I doubt they care what we like nor should they really.
Hero of Legend
Member
If only, if only.
-Pyromaniac-
Member
which apparently the wiiU should do a lot better in. But yeah I see the upcoming generation as the "polishing" generation. Better/cleaner textures, better lighting, etc...
yeah like they did last time
GameplayWhore
Member
Aye. Maybe when I get a flat panel television set in a few years, my impression of such things will change.
I do respect and appreciate changes in horsepower that actually do add to the fun of games, mind you. I just don't really care about it that much on a gut level. I'm probably going to be going back to Nethack a couple times a year until the day that I die.
TheGreatMightyPoo
Banned
Aye. Maybe when I get a flat panel television set in a few years, my impression of such things will change.
I do respect and appreciate changes in horsepower that actually do add to the fun of games, mind you. I just don't really care about it that much on a gut level. I'm probably going to be going back to Nethack a couple times a year until the day that I die.
I still only own a SD set myself.
I know what you are saying but I expect some bells and whistles all the same but if Pikmin 3 looks similar to the older games but is the best in mechanics and concepts, I'll be more than happy.
I guess it depends on the developer and game.
I expect Retro's game to set a new standard for Nintendo games visually.
Where were you at E3 last year?
The performance gain comes from an assumption that the compute hardware in GCN takes away from it's overall performance, I base this on 680GTX which is much faster than 580GTX thanks in large part to shedding it's compute performance.
The other, much more noticeable performance gain that is correct, is in smaller size of chip, the die size would be much smaller than if they used GCN, for instance, a similar performing 6000 series to the HD7770, would as DCking said, be under 100mm^2 while the HD7770 is 123mm^2, that means higher clock speeds at the same TDP.
You are also wrong about Nintendo not using higher clock speeds to gain performance in the past... The Wii's GPU is clocked something like 50% faster than Gamecube's, and other than memory sizes, the GPU didn't change with more TEV units right? so the assumption that Nintendo wouldn't do that with the Wii U, is a pretty big assumption indeed, especially when it is basically free performance.
And yes I did mean to quote EC, though I thought he was saying that the Xbox had effects that PS2 did not, which added to the distance between them, and that is my point, Wii U has the same effects as Xbox3 and if there is fixed function components, that distance should be much more superficial.
The only real way you are going to have the distance you are describing is if they do actually have separate GPGPU chips so that they can do much higher physics allowing for stuff like individual hair movement, particle effects, and just a more lively world.
Also, I am assuming that Nintendo will use a 28nm/32nm GPU, either should be enough to break the 600mhz you are assuming without raising the TDP very much at all...
Having said all of this, I don't know if they will, this is speculation on what they COULD do with the Wii U casing, I do believe that they will target the highest GFLOPs they can from the GPU without pushing the TDP higher than half for GPU.
bgassassin
Member
Haha.
This reminds me. Does anyone have that Iwata LOLNO.gif? I've been looking for it off and on the last few years and I can't seem to find it.
The reason why I don't focus too much on that shrinking the gap is because exclusives for PS4 and Xbox 3 would essentially negate that since Wii U exclusives are going to be the main, if not only, games to use that extra power.
Bgassassin's awkward non-response response to my post just confirms he is Wii U insider. Thanks!
I still don't know anything. >_>
You should be satisfied then.
He knows something.
I said it as soon as I discovered Nintendo was releasing a HD console: If the games look at least as good as Dolphin Wind Waker, I'm good.
ShockingAlberto
Member
God the Gamecube Zelda tech demo was ugly.
What an awful art style.
What an awful art style.
It would be great if the rumor that Nintendo was looking to revive dormant third party franchises was true, but with the idea of releasing them as $20 games on the eShop. There are so many properties that publishers would never want to risk at retail, but a game like a Billy Hatcher sequel could do alright for itself through eShop.
We'll be saying the same thing about the E3 2011 Zelda tech demo in 12 years.
ShockingAlberto
Member
I was saying that at the time!
The tech demos I loved for the GC were the 100 Marios and Metroid ones.
JoshuaJSlone
Member
I realize mixing partial information from Ideaman and bgassassin is kind of like mixing numbers from Famitsu and Media Create BUT. What's confusing me right now is it sounds like it isn't easy to take a 720p game from X360 and make it 1080p on Wii U, but it should be easy to take a 720p game from Wii U and make it 1080p with even better image quality on Future Xbox. That makes the latter gap seem much larger than the former, though most other things we hear wouldn't indicate that. Does Wii U have some sort of resolution bottleneck?
I love this man.Gahiggidy said:
Portugeezer
Member
And since we're on the topic of graphical leaps.
Can't wait to find out.
N64 is the biggest difference, damn that tech demo looks like PS1 compared to how the games turned out.
Maybe we will be saying the Zelda tech demo looked like an Xbox 360 game by the time the real Zelda game comes out for Wii U?
I think the big difference there is that Wii U exclusives running in 720p will look a great deal better than multiplatform games on the system because BG assumes that the automatic fixed functionality that doesn't decrease performance that we keep hearing about, will be ignored by third parties making ports... I somewhat doubt this, I think if it's so easy to do, that any team that works with the system in the next 2 years, will know how to easily use the fixed functionality of the gpu to produce those visuals... I mean just look at the bird demo that was made in a few weeks, even a week before the event or so, they changed it so drastically, that the floor demo was literally almost a generation beyond what they showed in the conference video.
So 360 games built today can't be uprezed to 1080p on Wii U in some cases, because the extra umph of the system is in fixed functions, though I think for the most part, the devs just aren't trying to run it at higher resolutions, and I sort of expect aliens to actually run at a higher resolution than the consoles, maybe as much as 1080p.
bgassassin
Member
I understood the basis for your assumption.
It's just that there was nothing logical to me that said it would work. nVidia uses a totally different architecture so it can't be used as a comparison. And to give tangible proof of that on the AMD side here are some benchmarks of a 7870 (1Ghz, 1280 ALUs, 2560 GFLOPs) vs a 6970 (880Mhz, 1536 ALUs, 2703 GFLOPs). As you'll see there's not only no gains, the 7870 has better performance in a lot of benchmarks.
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/radeon-hd-7870-review-benchmark,3148-5.html
You're also taking what I said out of context again. I said "high clocks" not "higher clocks". I tend to be very deliberate in my word choices when discussing things. Knowing about the GC's clock changes helped me make sure of that in this case.
And again it's not about the GPU being able to be clocked higher as I agree it could and would be a non-issue for the case. It's about Nintendo's philosophy that suggests it won't happen.
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