I'd say Fish pissed away all the potential for goodwill on the matter back at GDC. Jonathon Blow has also chimed in with inane comments too, hence my complete lack of respect for the man. They are functionally equivalent to the Houser brothers imo. Abrasive, arrogant and in the end, not all that good at making games as they would like to think they are.
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I'd say Fish pissed away all the potential for goodwill on the matter back at GDC. Jonathon Blow has also chimed in with inane comments too, hence my complete lack of respect for the man. They are functionally equivalent to the Houser brothers imo. Abrasive, arrogant and in the end, not all that good at making games as they would like to think they are.
Don't know about Fez, but those other two are great examples in their respective genres and regardless of my my own opinions of them were generally well received for gameplay reasons. So basically I think you're listing these games because you've got a beef with the developers, and if this is the best you can come up with for a list of bad indie games you've obviously played fuck all. Genuinely shit indie games are everywhere.
Nah. SMB is genuinely bad. Unless youre a masochist.
Braid plays alright, but it is derivative and this is an issue when the developer professes to be all for originality.
Ive played them both (finished Braid) so I dont know why you feel happy to make such baseless assumptions.
Braid plays alright, but it is derivative and this is an issue when the developer professes to be all for originality.
Ive played them both (finished Braid) so I dont know why you feel happy to make such baseless assumptions.
Difficult 2D platformers are a sub genre that a lot of people were happy to see make a small comeback between that and VVVVVV and probably others. SMB is polished and has a tonne of content for the low price. Agreed it's for masochists.
It was baseless, but now that you've admitted it, it isn't.
EatChildren
Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
I can't fault Super Meat Boy. Tight controls, great difficulty curve, challenging and varied level design, and overall design that understands what twitch platformer players appreciate (eg: instant, fast respawn).
Brilliant game.
Brilliant game.
Baseless assumption or not, you're still wrong. Braid is entirely derivative. It's Sands of Time meets Blinx meets Mario Bros. Blow has the temerity to lambast Japanese developers for having no ideas, yet he borrows all his ideas from French, Canadian and Japanese developed games. A slight case of do as I say, not as I do, no?
Super Meat Boy is not a good game. It's hard, its unbalanced, it has impossible jumps and exists for no other reason than to kick you in the balls repeatedly. Conversely, something like Bit.Trip Runner is hard but you can at least learn how to do it in the same vein as a traditional 2D sidescroller like Contra or Ghosts'n'Goblins.
My complaints don't have to do with the developers, especially in light of SMB where the developers themselves are actually by all accounts pretty likeable characters. I just strongly dislike their game. Braid was fine in the sense I finished it, but it's not at all original and it's nothing that I would entertain the thought of replaying, unlike something good as per Portal. It's just interesting, given its derivative nature, to see it stated as being incredibly important by its creator. It rings hollow. Or rather, it reeks of hypocrisy.
Super Meat Boy is not a good game. It's hard, its unbalanced, it has impossible jumps and exists for no other reason than to kick you in the balls repeatedly. Conversely, something like Bit.Trip Runner is hard but you can at least learn how to do it in the same vein as a traditional 2D sidescroller like Contra or Ghosts'n'Goblins.
My complaints don't have to do with the developers, especially in light of SMB where the developers themselves are actually by all accounts pretty likeable characters. I just strongly dislike their game. Braid was fine in the sense I finished it, but it's not at all original and it's nothing that I would entertain the thought of replaying, unlike something good as per Portal. It's just interesting, given its derivative nature, to see it stated as being incredibly important by its creator. It rings hollow. Or rather, it reeks of hypocrisy.
EatChildren
Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
What? It's much more a puzzle game than any of those. Whether it's derivative or not, it's not a shit game and by your own words you've based your opinion on the game on something the developer said and not on how the game plays.
reptilescorpio
Member
Oh wait, SMB is a good game. Even though I suck at it I really enjoy it and it is one of the few games I don't throw my hands in the air and say "fuck this, time for a story game instead". See also Trials. See also Binding of Isaac.
I guess people also assume 'indie' games are risky ventures made by people with no money and are hoping to hit it big otherwise it could be their last game before they take that cushy job at the McDonalds drive-thru.
wat?
It's ridiculous. They have stupid falling levels where control input seems like its either not received properly or its ignored. If its not a case of either of those instances, then its simply a game built to be impossible.
The game was fun for a little while, then it became infuriating as there was nothing you could do to beat most of its levels. I'm sure this is where 99% of its fans just say "Its too hard for you", which it is, but that's just bad game design.
Of course its a puzzle game, but like blinx or portal it still has things you need to think your way through. It's not original in that sense, only marginally in terms of its application. My opinion of the game is independent of the developer and his comments. I just make the observation that he is guilty of the same things he accuses other developers of.
EatChildren
Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
Being too hard for you isn't bad game design. It means the game is too hard for you.
I honestly cant think of another platform that has tight, responsive controls like Super Meat Boy. The game is 100% input skill driven. Later levels can be ludicrously hard, but that's the point. Failure is the fault of the player, and the game acknowledges players will likely fail often. If your fingers and mind are fast enough, you will persevere.
It's a twitch platformer.
I honestly cant think of another platform that has tight, responsive controls like Super Meat Boy. The game is 100% input skill driven. Later levels can be ludicrously hard, but that's the point. Failure is the fault of the player, and the game acknowledges players will likely fail often. If your fingers and mind are fast enough, you will persevere.
It's a twitch platformer.
reptilescorpio
Member
I would consider Portal a puzzle game. Portal 2 is basically a story game though, the puzzles are just there so you don't run through the game at full speed.
But it is bad game design. A game should have a learning curve where you are given the skills/tools to pass a level, and the difficulty ramps up at a rate enough to make it a challenge to you to improve. Not every game needs to be completable with 100% success rate, but it should be something you can get a decent way through before you hit a wall.
SMB is basically akin to smashing you into sheer brick wall 1000 feet tall with a completely smooth grip-less surface, and telling you to climb it. No progression, no learning, just instant ballkicking.
In cinematic terms, SMB is something I'd walk out of a theatre over, and Ive seen The Core and Mortal Kombat Annihilation through to the end damnit.
Portal is of course a puzzle game. No argument from me on that. Its arguably part platformer too.
It's not bad game design if that's the actual purpose of the game, Which it was.
SMB was about hard as fuck levels, twitchy gameplay and having to do everything CORRECTLY to actually get through the level. It was essentially trials but with a squishy dude. People love it because it's a challenge compared to the easy-peasy bullshit we get today, It also allows them to attempt to perfect something in a video game.
There's nothing wrong with that. I wouldn't call SMB a bad game, I sure as hell sucked at it. I much prefer my attempt at perfecting "levels" in arcade racers where I can find which car is the fastest, how to drift each corner to perfection and win. The same rules essentially apply in SMB, It's just more brutal about it.
EatChildren
Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
Your argument for bad game design boils down to nothing more than "it was too hard for me". This is literally all you're saying, because the game didn't shape it's experience exclusively to your skill level. As in you, an isolated player, and not the game's intended audience as a whole.
It has a learning curve. It has skills/tools. It has precision, control and responsiveness. The fault of failure is the player, not the game. Brutal, yes, but bad game design? Come on man. Come on.
How can you possibly say that SMB doesn't have a learning curve? It starts at a reasonable level of difficulty and progresses to become more difficult by introducing more elements/challenges. I can't even see how that's subjective. It is fact.
I think if a game doesnt make you want to finish it then its 'bad'.
If I play a game and either dont want to play any more because it gets boring (Enslaved) or is too easy (Nights 2) or the story is shit (Halo 3) or it looks like rubbish and is glitchy unplayable rubbish (Lost World on PS1), those are all reasons to consider such a game as being bad. Being ridiculously difficult also falls in that category.
If a game is good then it should also be reason enough for persevering through faults, trivial or glaring, in order to see it through or at the very least improve at it.
I'm not saying it doesnt have a learning curve. I'm saying that the learning curve is asymptotic and thus vertical. That's not a curve.
It's too hard for me, sure. But its bad because it makes it not worthwhile to even persevere with it. That's the fault of the game designer.
If I play a game and either dont want to play any more because it gets boring (Enslaved) or is too easy (Nights 2) or the story is shit (Halo 3) or it looks like rubbish and is glitchy unplayable rubbish (Lost World on PS1), those are all reasons to consider such a game as being bad. Being ridiculously difficult also falls in that category.
If a game is good then it should also be reason enough for persevering through faults, trivial or glaring, in order to see it through or at the very least improve at it.
I'm not saying it doesnt have a learning curve. I'm saying that the learning curve is asymptotic and thus vertical. That's not a curve.
It's too hard for me, sure. But its bad because it makes it not worthwhile to even persevere with it. That's the fault of the game designer.
FallbackPants
Member
I think you're on your own on this one Vince. And I mean in the world.
EatChildren
Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
I think you disliking a game because your skill level is inadequate and thus lost interest does not make the game 'bad', nor the game have 'bad design', but it simply not a game for you. Personal taste. Yours is not an authority on good game design.
That's kinda the point of the genre. There are a lot of mechanics that get "shared" a hell of a lot more than the time manipulation mechanic, and they can certainly result in very different games (like say, Braid and Sands of Time). Deriding a video game for being "derivative" is a lazy criticism, every game is.
So it's "alright", not "shit"?
When haven't I been stating this as anything other than personal taste? I call SMB bad just as much as a film like Mullholland Drive or that song dont call me baby. People like them, but theyre still bad to me.
An asymptote is a curve. Of infinite curviness. It approaches non-curviness but never reaches it.
Quoting the same post twice but bear with me:
To provide a couple of counterpoints, Contra and Ikaruga. Both are games I find incredibly hard, like SMB. The difference being however that with Contra and Ikaruga at least, there is enough of a carrot to keep trying, keep improving and maybe get a bit further in the game.
I'm probably just as 'good' at all three games, but two of them keep me coming back for more. SMB has no redeeming qualities that make me want to persist with it at all.
To provide a couple of counterpoints, Contra and Ikaruga. Both are games I find incredibly hard, like SMB. The difference being however that with Contra and Ikaruga at least, there is enough of a carrot to keep trying, keep improving and maybe get a bit further in the game.
I'm probably just as 'good' at all three games, but two of them keep me coming back for more. SMB has no redeeming qualities that make me want to persist with it at all.
I was using the term in the engineering context. ie near enough is good enough.
Still not seeing absolutes. Salient (to me) example: I think kit-built homes have bad design too, but I'm sure others don't. I'm arguing my opinion against yours and others. If you like I can go back and edit "imo" into every sentence in my posts this past page or so.
"Bad game design" suggests that it didn't achieve it's design goals, rather than the fact that it didn't set out to make a game that you would like.
Well a different tact would be arguing over whether or not one can see the merits of a game they didn't enjoy at all. Or see why others might enjoy it.
It would obviously be ridiculous to argue that "no-one liked it", but it would not be ridiculous to argue that "it's a bad game" given the latter is a matter of taste and the former is a quantifiable or disputable fact with a definitive answer.
It's just the same as me saying Skyward Sword is my favourite game of all time, yet in the exact same page of the |OT| I posted that in, others are saying its a terrible piece of shit.
In any case, this debate seems to have reached its natural conclusion so I will leave you aficionados of the game alone and change subject somewhat:
WHY IS THERE NO EURO 2012 ON SBS TONIGHT?!
FallbackPants
Member
Bizarrely I found each death in SMB to be a reward in itself. I remember being disappointed when I finished a level after only a few goes and the replay wasn't as ridiculous. Watching myself fail time after time became part of the fun.
And I've never finished dozens of good, hell great games. I've never finished Super Mario Brothers, Super Metroid, you could probably count on one hand the number of people who finished a Battletoads game. That doesn't mean they aren't good though
I find enjoyment in a challenge, even if its insurmountable like in the games I mentioned. But personally I found no interest in staying with SMB and what I saw to be insanely unfair levels. Trials and N+ also have a bit of that about them too I find.
reptilescorpio
Member
Those people are stupid crybabies, even if I didn't like Skyward Sword (which I did indeed not think much of it) I would never say it is terrible or a POS. It just wasn't the kind of game I like to play.
Choc: how was nintendo world leg
legend166: oh crap
legend166: completely forgot
Hamchan: lol
legend166: lol
legend166: i was right there to
legend166: many times
Choc: are you fucking serious
Choc: ARE YOU FUCKING SERIOUS
legend166: i walked past rockefeller plaza
Hamchan: I can only guess it's like that Nintendo EB in Melbourne
Choc: YOU FLEW HALFWAY AROUND THE WORLD
legend166: oh crap
legend166: completely forgot
Hamchan: lol
legend166: lol
legend166: i was right there to
legend166: many times
Choc: are you fucking serious
Choc: ARE YOU FUCKING SERIOUS
legend166: i walked past rockefeller plaza
Hamchan: I can only guess it's like that Nintendo EB in Melbourne
Choc: YOU FLEW HALFWAY AROUND THE WORLD
To me an unfair game is one that has an element of luck or randomness, where even what would normally be perfect play can still result in a loss or death.
SMB is anything but random.
Quick question for ausgaf people:
That new consumer law that came out last year or so about warranties. Whats a reasonable amount of time for which one should be able to get repair/replacements/refunds for broken hardware?
It seems to me that for example, if I bought a $1000 PS3 right now (apart from being a fool) I should expect the thing to last for a good 5 or so years, yes? Not 12 months and then youre on your own, right?
That new consumer law that came out last year or so about warranties. Whats a reasonable amount of time for which one should be able to get repair/replacements/refunds for broken hardware?
It seems to me that for example, if I bought a $1000 PS3 right now (apart from being a fool) I should expect the thing to last for a good 5 or so years, yes? Not 12 months and then youre on your own, right?
There's no statutory time limit... giving a conservative estimate I would put it at about 2-3 years for console hardware, but that's my personal estimate. It would depend on what Sony says is the lifetime for a console, for example. Chasing it would be expensive and time consuming though
/edit Vince are you just bringing threads from gaming into AusGAF
Or animation locking, enemies that ignore hitstun, controls that don't translate properly to your character movement, shit like that.
/edit Vince are you just bringing threads from gaming into AusGAF
Or animation locking, enemies that ignore hitstun, controls that don't translate properly to your character movement, shit like that.
First I've heard of the law, but I just looked it up. There's no set time frame, and it simply specifies it should work for the reasonably expected time after purchase. I really have no idea how to calculate that, but it could be argued that the standard one year warranty that is used industry-wide might be the expected length of time.
Edit: Actually, here's a post where an NZ watchdog says a reasonable time for PS3 is 5 years. This post was made a few years ago, but you might be able to argue this here now too.
reptilescorpio
Member
Here you go Vince!
Also I would expect it would depend on how annoying you are and how long you are willing to annoy them using all possible means of communication (and stuff like Consumer Affairs).
Only 12 months by the look of it as they would say the defect did not exist at purchase.
Also I would expect it would depend on how annoying you are and how long you are willing to annoy them using all possible means of communication (and stuff like Consumer Affairs).
Only 12 months by the look of it as they would say the defect did not exist at purchase.
For things like the RRoD and YLoD, I'd assume they wouldn't be able to claim that, though.
lol, no, just fact checking for once AFTER I make a post.
I wonder how well you could argue that a console should last a console generation? I know more and more systems have more complex issues, but it was never really the case that a system should be 'expected' to maybe fail after only a couple of years.
Since the days of PS1/2, it seems to have been a case of decreasing expectations and 360s brought that down to six months.
I wonder how plausible it would be to argue that Sony's "Ten Year Plan" might be cause to expect a system to last that long? Hell, I expect to still have a working Gamecube after the PS4 generation is over.
haha oh poor Legend
btw choc where can one watch euros on tonight? foxtel only>?
not only fox only, setanta only
so another sub channel on top of fox cost (i have it turned on for euros)
This week could be cool, or the worst of my life. I'll need to wait and see a bit.
No, I don't think a 'console generation' is related to the reasonable expected working length of the hardware, courts would probably look to standards in similar fields (other consoles, consumer electronics involving similar technology, etc) before that kind of thing.
reptilescorpio
Member
Depends on what was refurbished. When I got my 360 back from RROD I got E74 errors right front first hookup that happened every now and then.
Basically fuck being a tester for this shit that is pushed out the door 2 years before it is built effectively. Mobile phones are just as bad now too.
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