Totilo article on Wii U's power. New rumors, analysis of getting PS4/720 ports
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bgassassin
Member
^ Not possible from what I've seen.
I gotcha now. That's how I see it and like with the other consoles would optimize it as time passes.
Wsippel's info was what I was referring to actually.
I gotcha now. That's how I see it and like with the other consoles would optimize it as time passes.
Wsippel's info was what I was referring to actually.
Gahiggidy
My aunt & uncle run a Mom & Pop store, "The Gamecube Hut", and sold 80k WiiU within minutes of opening.
Uhh.. actually very few of us were happy with with wii graphics. Being stuck with GCN level graphics for an another 5 years sucked but we settled with standard definition last generation with the hope that Nintendo's next console would be a return to Nintendo's reputation of making capable yet smart hardware.
iamshadowlark
Banned
Um no.
lwilliams3
Member
Thanks for reminding us about that. Wsippel also considered that the compiler break could to due to using a different CPU too.
Wouldn't Wii U already have a sizeable performance increase even if the CPU is just as powerful as Xenos? From what I understand, the Wii U Will offload the majority of stuff that was donecon Xenos (sound, OS, physics) to other chips. That alone could lead up to a 2-3x performance gain.
Yeah, I thought I'd read people saying it has a dedicated DSP and I/O processor so none of those functions would use the CPU. That alone should give it a boost over the 360/PS3 even if it's only up to par, shouldn't it?
7? 8 SPEs on the Cell with only 7 activated?
And one reserved for the OS, but you can run stuff on the main processor too, so that's back to 7, but then you can schedule all number of threads if you want
But if the question is how many concurrent processes can be handles simultaneously, I'll go for 7. And yes, a slightly irrelevant measure but we don't have much else to go on. Knowing what exact CPU would be more useful
as an aside, I'm happy with approximately 360 level power but more RAM. The only real disappointment these days is texture resolution and sub HD. More RAM should improve the former (and games with PC ports will have textures ready to use), and the improved GPU should at least give us solid 720p - none of this 600p nonsense
Gahiggidy said:
The PS3 supports an astonishing 2 CPU threads, one of which is bogged down with system stuff half the time IIRC.
Edit: SPE jobs are not general purpose CPU threads, which is what everyone is talking about with the WiiU. Only the 2 threads on the PPU can access main memory and work in a way compatible with general purpose multithreaded architecture programming. IE, if you were going to do a direct port from PC or 360 to PS3 you could only use the PPU threads without engine restructuring.
Edit2: Which doesn't mean the PS3 is slow, it means the PS3 has the architecture of a PS3 and you should probably program to that architecture if you care about perf.
PS3 supports 9 hardware threads. 2 on the PPE by means of hardware SMT, 7 on the SPEs. One of the latter is reserved for the OS.
(Of course, like every other architecture, it supports any number of software threads, either OS-level or user level)
What is your definition of "thread" which makes you arrive at this astonishing(ly wrong) conclusion?
Indeed. And in all likelihood, we're talking about a pretty zippy GPU with a 2011 feature set and as much as 2GB of total RAM, which would put its capabilities well beyond those of the HD Bros. How close it is to the Super HD Bros., however, is hard to say.
SPUs can access main memory without involving the PPU in any way. I've written code that does this. It's slightly more involved than reading from a pointer, but hey, that's what makes it exciting.
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
Since they got burned a bit on the N64 design, it appears that Nintendo has always tried to remove programming obstacles in terms of memory latency and bandwidth although they keep favoring low latency solutions first and foremost (see the use of 1-T SRAM on GCN and Wii and the use of FCRAM in the 3DS, but also see the RAM and ROM architecture in the GBA... sure, it had quite a lot of different memory pools, but the memory subsystem did not provide big performance bottlenecks at all). Having a low latency memory helps your machine throughput to be closer to its peak without making your coder's life too difficult or without requiring your HW designers to hide the latency with some other complex measure.
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
Hehe, yeah. I wonder how misconceptions like this are still out there today when the CBE Architecture is quite openly documented.
I remember being quite excited that SPE's DMA also supported Virtual addresses, unlike EE's VU's, and so main memory would be easier to access than it was on PS2.
The same definition that has been used throughout this thread - general purpose CPU threads.
Of course they can access main memory but the distinction between "access" and "read/write" is a little too fine grained for this discussion.
My point is that number of general purpose threads is a pretty poor measure of anything. It sounds like what these devs are saying is they have code where N number of symmetric threads can execute generic jobs and on the WiiU N is 3- half what the 360 has and 50% more than the PS3.
If you have generic multi-threaded code written for a PC and you port it to PS3 you can use the two PPU threads with your code essentially as-is. Using the SPEs is not a quick port, and code that is written like typical loop through a bunch of objects and run a bunch of virtual methods using a million pointers each is not easy to port or the best use of the architecture.
Which, if the WiiU supports GPGPU stuff, would be a similar situation in some ways.
DonMigs85
Member
Still, stuff like audio can be run on an SPE whereas it would also take up one of the 6 threads on Xenon.
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
Some developers probably did exactly like your said, coarsely divided jobs for the CPU's like they used to do on PC and Xbox 360. Instead of jobs systems, and small tasks, they would divide physics, rendering, AI, etc... and assign each main sub-system to a core or a HW thread. The Xbox 360 CPU was happy, not incredibly so, but did not complain. PS3 would be severely underutilized this way.
That was not the best way to use the PS3, but as it turns out, it is not the best way to use your multi-core CPU on your PC either once you go above 2-4 HW threads.
walking fiend
Member
So it means developers can risk making experimental major games on Wii U without going bankrupt if their games don't become a million seller?
I definitely rather see shitty looking titles like The Last Story on Wii U than having Uncharted 'cinematic' experience.
I definitely rather see shitty looking titles like The Last Story on Wii U than having Uncharted 'cinematic' experience.
sakipon
Member
You've found the very essence of Wii U. Now we just need a pile of creative games.
Yes, because hardware power prevents creativity. A great example of this is the PC platform -- it's excessive power means that it's the domain of a small number of AAAA titles exclusively.
Actually, running a bunch of virtual methods following a million pointers isn't the best way to use any computer architecture I know, even with a single thread!
I love this rationale. Nothing but Halo's and Call of Duties on PS3/360, amirite?
walking fiend
Member
Wii and specially DS abound with them.
And people say, so are XLBA/PSN full if creative games. Yes, full of creative games made by small indie devs.
My best games last gen and their status now:
FFX: Became linear this gen
Shadow of the Colossus: Team Ico is dead
Psychonauts: Schaffer still waiting for someone to fund the sequel
Resident Evil 4: 'cinematic'
DMC: Bayonetta 2 got cancelled
MGS3: So far I have seen more cutscenes in MGS4 than actually playing the game.
Splinter Cell: I stopped caring
GT3: GT5 didn't make it like 4 years after PS3 launch
Onimusha: is dead
Jak: Uncharted is obviously not what Jak was to Crash
And then people play Bioshock and think how 'novel' the experience is; lol
What a shitty argument. Unlike consoles, PC users have hardwares with a large variety in terms of power and are not forced to buy $1000 graphic cards; that's why best selling PC games never have graphic fidelity:
StarCraft, Diablo 3, DotA2, WoW, etc. are all 'major' games that run fine on even many laptops with intel graphics.
Unless you mean small indie games, which of course don't replace works of major developers and designers; yes, that's almost what is being pushed on the system.
Unless you missed news like EA wanting Dead Space to sell more, or Black List, etc.
shinra-bansho
Member
Stupid third parties, support Nintendo systems.
Stupid third parties, I don't want those types of games.
Seems awfully bipolar.
walking fiend
Member
Maybe somewhat bipolar, but obviously they are not contradictory or hypocritical demands. 3rd parties may support Nintendo in different ways and obviously not all games on HD consoles are the same.
For example, SE is making the FFX HD for Vita, while is making Theatrhythm for 3DS and FF-XIII for PS3 while DQ for Wii; the same with Atlus which is making Persona for Vita and SMT4 for 3DS; or P-100 from PG is obviously quite different to their works on HD consoles; or how Sakaguchi makes TLS for Wii and also makes. Another interesting example:
I think a lot of Nintendo crowd aren't asking for 3rd party support in the sense of porting whatever shit they make for HD consoles, but rather to see that people are willing to buy their games made not only for Nintendo hardware limitations and capabilities, but also something which fits the demographic demand of the installed based.
iamshadowlark
Banned
Um what the hell do you define as a General Purpose CPU thread? And what significance do you think these "general purpose" threads have in game programming??
blu
Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
I'm not sure what you're arguing here. Of course SPEs have access to main memory. It's neither coherent nor trivial though. GPUs can have a similarly 'slightly more involved' access to mem. So are we throwing openCL into the mix or?
blu
Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
They can access the main mem on UMA just fine, thank you very much.
I'm pretty sure I can access the main memory of your PS3 from an N64 with some lockpicking tools and a screwdriver, and maybe a soldering iron or something.
SPEs cannot directly access main PS3 memory (yes, even though DMA has the word "direct" in it) and you can't write PC-style code that accesses memory willy-nilly and easily port it to the PS3. That was my point. Early in this gen a lot of games performed noticeably worse for PS3 or just didn't come out at all, in part because the way there were written leaned heavily on the performance of the PPU. (How about that Last Remnant PS3 - still coming!!!) But that's less a knock against the power of the PS3 (I suppose it could be a knock on the architecture choice) and more just that the PS3 is a PS3.
On some level it's fair to say the the weak PPU on the PS3 is a bottleneck, but it's also fair to say that if your bottle has 8 necks and you are only using one you are sort of doing it wrong. The fact that the WiiU CPU may have only 3 threads is only particularly relevant if you know the rest of the architecture. If it can run physics code on the GPU and you aren't doing that you are choosing the make the CPU more of a bottleneck than it needs to be.
Edit: If you really want to be pedantic the Memory Flow Controllers in Cell are technically separate from SPEs (in at least some of the documentation), so the statement that SPEs can access main memory on their own is false!
SPEs cannot directly access main PS3 memory (yes, even though DMA has the word "direct" in it) and you can't write PC-style code that accesses memory willy-nilly and easily port it to the PS3. That was my point. Early in this gen a lot of games performed noticeably worse for PS3 or just didn't come out at all, in part because the way there were written leaned heavily on the performance of the PPU. (How about that Last Remnant PS3 - still coming!!!) But that's less a knock against the power of the PS3 (I suppose it could be a knock on the architecture choice) and more just that the PS3 is a PS3.
On some level it's fair to say the the weak PPU on the PS3 is a bottleneck, but it's also fair to say that if your bottle has 8 necks and you are only using one you are sort of doing it wrong. The fact that the WiiU CPU may have only 3 threads is only particularly relevant if you know the rest of the architecture. If it can run physics code on the GPU and you aren't doing that you are choosing the make the CPU more of a bottleneck than it needs to be.
Edit: If you really want to be pedantic the Memory Flow Controllers in Cell are technically separate from SPEs (in at least some of the documentation), so the statement that SPEs can access main memory on their own is false!
iamshadowlark
Banned
So. vague.
What are you even getting at? What "willy nilly pc-style" code do you think you can easily port to the 360? How is the PPU a bottleneck?
Yup Kameo in particular still looks quite amazing in some areas, what has happened to Rare is like one of the worst things in gaming history imo, it's such a waste of pure talent, Rare could've easily become Microsofts's Naughty Dog if they had kept them away from Kinect.
It's the other way around. Naughty Dog was Sony's Rare.
StevePharma
Member
Remember Wii was two Gamecubes duct-taped together?
I was envisioning a 2x better looking RE4-quality like game on Wii.
Yet one of the best looking games on the Wii we got was RE4.
It's all about the devs. Capcom hate these days is somewhat understandable but those guys are wizards with hardware. I hope more devs would acknowledge the relative power a Nintendo console offers, because seeing a 2D-Wii Mario and Dolphin-uprezzed Pikmin on Wii-U makes me kinda sad. Guess it'll be up to Retro to make some good stuff.
I was envisioning a 2x better looking RE4-quality like game on Wii.
Yet one of the best looking games on the Wii we got was RE4.
It's all about the devs. Capcom hate these days is somewhat understandable but those guys are wizards with hardware. I hope more devs would acknowledge the relative power a Nintendo console offers, because seeing a 2D-Wii Mario and Dolphin-uprezzed Pikmin on Wii-U makes me kinda sad. Guess it'll be up to Retro to make some good stuff.
Xdrive05
Member
I'm skeptical that 1st party WiiU games will be that impressive, not unless Ninty hires a bunch of PS360 programmers for their teams. People easily forget the slow upswing in graphics we had early in this current gen.
It wouldn't surprise me if we don't see much SM3/DX9+ shader/feature use at all from 1st party games. Hopefully the Galaxy team takes full advantage... hot damn, that could be outstanding. But, yeah, probably a lot of high poly models and cell shading, etc., at hopefully good framerates, but little in the way of post processing, tesselation and such. Maybe not even HDR.*
*which would be ironic as the GPU is reportetly fully featured. Hopefully that means they're planning on using these features.
It wouldn't surprise me if we don't see much SM3/DX9+ shader/feature use at all from 1st party games. Hopefully the Galaxy team takes full advantage... hot damn, that could be outstanding. But, yeah, probably a lot of high poly models and cell shading, etc., at hopefully good framerates, but little in the way of post processing, tesselation and such. Maybe not even HDR.*
*which would be ironic as the GPU is reportetly fully featured. Hopefully that means they're planning on using these features.
I continue to not be concerned about not playing games that don't exist on an engine nobody but Epic will be able to use for the next two years and with no guarantees that developers and publishers are going to exactly be running to drop their UE3 license. This would be like assuming every 360/PS3 game was going to be running Renderware2. Just like the consoles themselves, the middleware horse everyone rides isn't set in stone before the generation even begins.
Doesn't you argument fall apart considering the Wii U is more powerful and thus more expensive to develop for(nfan logic not mine) then the "stupid dudebro anti ninty 3rd party machines" on the market now.
Unless of course increase in power only is bad when your favorite company doesn't do it.
Unless those people are asking for a sonic or lego game or Just dance, they are asking something that isn't economically viable.
walking fiend
Member
what?M°°nblade;39248969 said:
Not really:
1. Demographic expectations and focus will not force the developers to use very high production value and graphic fidelity.
As I said, the best selling PC games don't require high end hardware at all; while you will have to look hard for even million seller HD console games not with very high graphic fidelity, let alone multi-million sellers.
2. As the technology advances, development costs are also lowered to some extent. Obviously, making a game like FFVII wouldn't cost 45m if it were to be produced now.
The problem is when the increase in cost greatly exceeds the reduction in development costs, like it happened this generation.
For example, SM3DL is made by ~ 45 people despite the jump from DS to 3DS.
Sho_Nuff82
Member
These statements given to Totilo match up with the statements given to CVG a while back. "You don't need complex physics to run Mario I guess" was stated in regards to the CPU. So it's kind of hard to be disappointed when this has been hinted for a while.
majortom1981
Member
They stated they needed more power for more things on screen when they created the new super mario brothers for the wii. They were actually limited by the wiis power. Nintendo also stated they make their hardware based on the games they want to make .
So I am gathering the wii's hardware will have the sound and as much graphics as possible offloaded from the cpu so that the cpu can be used to put more objects on screen at once.
The problem is that 3rd parties do not have the same way of programing and making games as nintendo does.
That is why nintendo usually can get better looking games out of their system then 3rd parties can.
PS this was stated in relation to the 4 players on screen at oince and a limitation they had with it and gameplay on the wii.
Lmao haha That's what I get for posting right before I rush to leave work.
What what?
Basically you're asking something that didn't work on the Wii.
Then why would it suddenly work on the Wii U? Where's the difference?
Due to the focus on specific Wii U capabilities, having a very limited installbase, dealing with limited human resources, and increased development costs, I don't think we'll see large investments in separate Wii U development studios. At least not those kind of games the Nintendo crowd wants. Because it's for the most part not in line with the demographic demand.
And if they do ... remember Haze on PS3? You don't want projects like that.
iamshadowlark
Banned
Are you talking UE4? Epic already has licensees and the first game is coming next year.
Which licensee and which game? Epic has even said that developers should be using UE3 for launch 720/PS4 games. Every realistic date I've heard for a fully delivered UE4 is 2014.
Team Filler
Member
Silicon Knights using UE4 for Eternal Darkness 2. Believe.