Nope, some of the API was ported and only a portion is available for Metro apps.
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/apps/br205757.aspx
Microsoft Surface Tablet announced
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Nope, some of the API was ported and only a portion is available for Metro apps.
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/apps/br205757.aspx
saltywalrus
Member
Not going to happen. Adobe won't want to give MS a 30% cut of sales and allow it to be installed on 5 devices.
That link is regarding Metro apps. Any info about the Win32 API for desktop on ARM devices?
Of course not, as you said you can't develop desktop ARM apps.
You aren't suggesting that Microsoft fully ported all those APIs and are withholding them from developers?
saltywalrus
Member
Yes, that's what I'm suggesting.
Complex Shadow
Cudi Lame
Yea I could see that happening. That would explain word.
The new ipad can use a fan. users report it getting very hot.
Aside from that we are talking sub 18 watts here for the cpu. Remember ivybridge is able to dynamicly clock its gpu/cpu and can switch off cores and use very little power. Alot of the time your going to be no where near that 18w
If you take a look yo ucan put all the way up to a i7 3667u which is a 2/4 (core/thread) 2ghz/3.2/3.0 (base/SC turbo/DC turbo) and gpu of 350/1150(base/max) and its all in a TDP of 17w
the i5 3427u is getting 6-8.5 hours of battery life depending on what your doing with a similar size battery as to what the surface has .
Its also producing about 79/80c in the ultra book format . Consumer reports has said the new ipad hits 116F in tests.
So if the surface is done right it would have a heatsink which would reside under the screen. put a small squirral fan in the center and your good to go. It wont make much noise and the heat will be distributed evenly across the device.
I'm also going to go out on a limb and say in the next 9 months intel will either have a haswel part ready for MS or will have a respin of ivybridge ready for MS that reduces power further
Adobe will make the same photoshop as they have on the ipad with perhaps a few more features if it surves in their best interest.
LukasTaves
Member
I though that was pretty much confirmed by Ms themselves, no?
I remember they saying that Win32 was ported to arm back when desktop on arm was though to be completely absent (explaining why they demoed it back at W8 reveal), but they decided to restrict it to system apps and office because they could be very harmful to arm processor's performance and battery life...
Edit: Back then insiders said the plan was to have desktop support for 3rd parties on Arm, but the apps would have to be signed by Ms for ensuring that the desktop app complied with Ms' security, performance and battery guidelines.
I wonder this as well.
If they got a legit digtizer (do we know yet?) and legit power there, damn, dream machine.
But yeah, after years of dicking around with half-assed tablets and cintiqs, we're almost there, I can feel it - a proper and affordable digital canvas.
If it's not the surface than someone else will make it.
The technology is ready.
The windows api itself isn't really much concerned with what CPU it runs on. A much lower level api, called the Native API, is what cares about that. Porting Windows NT (the basis of all recent windows versions) to new CPUs is mostly a matter of porting those lower layers, with the win32/64 api sitting on top of them. ARM isn't the first non-x86 target of WinNT. There were MIPS, PowerPC, and Itanium builds back in the day. It's built to be ported.
That said, I'm sure there's a bunch of dlls that most people would consider part of the api that just aren't included in winrt. Doesn't mean they've never been compiled for it, though.
I'm aware, I did some development for Alpha back in the day. I really think some people are vastly underestimating just how big and quirky the full Win32 API is. If you look at the very small set of API calls they have for Metro/ARM, they have limited support.
I could agree with this, but I would consider porting actually making it work decently/correctly, not just compiling it.
I find it much more likely that they have a larger set (but still not the full set) of API working, but it has compatibility and performance issues that they don't wish to address or document.
Doesn't matter how big or quirky it is, it's designed to be portable and ARM isn't really special in that regard. The parts of the OS that are concerned with the CPU are extremely limited and have nothing to do with pretty much any win32 api you might ever call. I can't tell if you think this is a WinCE kind of situation, where it was a whole new kernel and environment, or what. But when I say that Windows NT was built to be portable, I mean *all of it*, not just some limited subset.
Limiting WinRT development to Metro was a business decision, not a technical one.
Speaking as a pretty heaven Photoshop user, I just came across a much better solution than the Surface Pro. An Atom W8 Tablet.
Take this Acer Iconia w510 as an example,
http://www.carrypad.com/database/Acer/Iconia Tab W510
It has a 10" 1080p screen, so that matches the Surface Pro,
It has Transformer style dock, which provides 18 hours of run time and an usable keyboard. Weight is unknown, but I assume its comparable to Transformer's 2.6 lb (w/ keyboard)
Now why don't I just buy an Ultrabook? I can't justify an 1000+ purchase. I don't actually use Photoshop to make money, I am just a hobbyist who process photo a lot. Plus if I want to spend that much I would have brought a MBA.
And what about iPad? It doesn't run real Photoshop so its out. An compare to a Netbook? This one has a detachable screen so I can actually use it on a roadtrip. I can maybe dualboot Android and have access to much larger collection of touch screen consumption apps. At night I can boot it in W8 and use Photoshop to process photographs. The more I think about it, the more I like this hardware solution than anything else.
Hopefully Acer will offer a version with better IPS screen. But hey its Acer, I am sure you can get one for under 400 by Black Friday. If its that cheap I can live with a crappier screen.
Scalemail Ted
Member
It lacks an active digitizer
tino you do understand that performance of the atom will be extremely slow compared to the ivybridge in the surface pro.
while it will get some good battery life i'm pretty sure you would need all that battery life to render anything.
The current atoms like the n2800 are weak chips they are on par with the amd e-350
A dual or even quad core ivy bridge will make quick work out of the atom.
while it will get some good battery life i'm pretty sure you would need all that battery life to render anything.
The current atoms like the n2800 are weak chips they are on par with the amd e-350
A dual or even quad core ivy bridge will make quick work out of the atom.
tino you do understand that performance of the atom will be extremely slow compared to the ivybridge in the surface pro.
while it will get some good battery life i'm pretty sure you would need all that battery life to render anything.
The current atoms like the n2800 are weak chips they are on par with the amd e-350
A dual or even quad core ivy bridge will make quick work out of the atom.
I can run Photoshop just fine on single core Atom. I have owned 3 Netbooks so far. You drive it with keyboard shortcuts. Photoshop is actually not very processor intensive. Screen resolution and display quality is more important IMO. There are only two filters I use that demand power. I much prefer a hardware solution that last a whole day than a powerful machine.
what are you looking to do
The Asus zenbook prime ux21a uses an uknown ivybridge but its 17w TDP
I wouldn't make it my primary device for creation but when on the go the i5 chip should do very well esp if we get a quad core in this .
I'll concede that they did a decent job previously, but there were still definite issues moving between the CPUs/Environments back in NT days. I would expect this go around to be very similiar to WinCE. I wouldn't consider WinCE having the full Win32 api either. I guess we will see, as these will probably end up getting hacked.
I believe it was a bit of both, a clean break from the old APIs would greatly increase their freedom to do memory and battery management.
Up to you then , I have an atom netbook and it barely runs windows . I don't really use photoshop though , i mainly edit video
WinCE was a whole new codebase. It didn't even try to have the full api. WinRT is not a new codebase, it's NT with the WinRT/Metro layer on top.
That's a business decision. Closing off APIs that prevent them from doing that, even though they've been implemented, so they can control more of the platform.
Look, I know you have no reason to trust me on this, and that makes it entirely ok if you don't want to believe me. But I'm not talking out my ass on this. If you went into the right places on MS' campus you could almost certainly see a fully booted win7/8 environment on an ARM chip.
what are you looking to do
The Asus zenbook prime ux21a uses an uknown ivybridge but its 17w TDP
I wouldn't make it my primary device for creation but when on the go the i5 chip should do very well esp if we get a quad core in this .
I mostly do compositing work in Nuke. I may take a file into photoshop for matte painting or a face replacement or rig removal. Also work in After Effects and Silhouette FX for rotoscoping and keying. Need something that can do all that and keep up with 4k files.
Shogmaster
Member
The biggest if for Surface Pro doing professional Photoshop work isn't the CPU/GPU. I used a Core 2 Duo Tablet PC until few months ago. Anything Ivy Bridge would crush that, and I used that Tablet PC fine for work.
No the biggest if belongs to the RAM amount. The reason I skipped on Samsung S7 Slate was because it had only 4GB of RAM, and it was soldered on the mobo. Surface Pro will also have it's RAM soldered on the mobo, and if its only 4GB, they don't deserve to put "Pro" in the name IMO. 8GB is a minimum for pro Photoshop work.
No the biggest if belongs to the RAM amount. The reason I skipped on Samsung S7 Slate was because it had only 4GB of RAM, and it was soldered on the mobo. Surface Pro will also have it's RAM soldered on the mobo, and if its only 4GB, they don't deserve to put "Pro" in the name IMO. 8GB is a minimum for pro Photoshop work.
Yeah, exactly.
Al-ibn Kermit
Junior Member
The regular Surface and the Pro version are both being marketed towards people who have laptops and wanted a tablet (due to mobility), but until now were not able to do so because their job requires them to use Windows.
The Pro is obviously aimed at those who need regular Windows to run programs unique to their company's uses. That's it. Processing power, resolution, and storage capacity are nice upgrades over other ARM tablets but it's really just the software that makes the difference.
There are probably tons of people who travel a lot and would appreciate a more mobile computing device. The problem is that iOS doesn't fit their needs and laptops are heavier and can't be used while standing/walking. That's why both versions of the Surface are going to cut into laptop sales, the same way that the iPad has. But where the iPad is converting people who just use computers to web browse ,Facebook and also read some PDFs/do small emails, the Surface tablets are mainly aimed at business users above everybody else.
And lets not forget students. They'll basically see the WinRT version as an iPad with Office. Which is a big deal honestly.
Pretty much any iPad owner will disagree with that statement. I played galaxy on fire two on mine for hours and it was never hot.
79/80C=174/176F which is way hotter than the new ipad will ever get and a safety hazard.
The diffrence is the intel chip has an on board sensor that you can use to determine temp. The ipad does not and the reading will be muddled.
Also the intel cpu will have a heatsink on it thus moving the heat away from the core quickly. I have a brazos e-350 and the heatsink is cool to the touch and the cpu runs at about 70c under full load.
Remember even the ipad has heatsinks on its chips. The intel ones will simply have larger ones with a fan and the problems are solved
It will be interesting to see what they do. I really w ant a surface but might go with a trinity tablet from another maker.
In all honesty i woul duse the tablet for web surfing , video watching , light video editing and video gaming. The trinity would suit me better. I'd also hope other manufacturers have the ability to hot swap batterys or add more ram.
I would expect ram prices to fall even more over the rest of the year so that we might see a model with 4 gigs and one with 8 gigs. it be great if users could order from the website 16 gig verisons.
We will have to see.
I would sugest that anyone who buys a surface to have a decent pc at home and remote desktop into it. Save the edits you did to your video as a project and then load them on your home pc and have the pc start rendering the video.
This would be the ideal usage on the surface I would think
Tablets with active cooling fans that are also much thicker, bulkier, and more expensive than the iPad will never sell in large quantities.
Shogmaster
Member
Define large.
depends. On what u consider large quanitys. Thesntablets can sell millions in the busni as world
Agree with everyone saying that the Pro is in a weird position where it looks like the jack of all trades but master of none. At first I thought it would be perfect for me, but the more I think about it the more it falls short: it's probably too heavy to use as an casual portable web browsing/video watching/reading device, and too lacking in both RAM and screen size for the kind of applications I would want desktop Windows for (mainly video and photo editing). At that price it would make more sense for me to buy a good laptop.
My money to the first OEM that produces a Windows RT slate with a Surface-like cover keyboard and stylus support with a digitizer. That would be my ideal tablet.
My money to the first OEM that produces a Windows RT slate with a Surface-like cover keyboard and stylus support with a digitizer. That would be my ideal tablet.
Sounds made-up to me, or I must have got one of the good ones because mine hardly gets warm with extended gaming. My iPhone 4S gets cooking hot, but not my iPad 3.
Shogmaster
Member
That would probably be Samsung. They can simply take the new Galaxy Note 10.1, install Win8 RT and add a keyboard cover.
Um.... its 30% heavier than the iPad 2lbs vs 1.5 lbs. If you can hold one u can hold the other. The surface also has USB and HDMI so if u need a bigger screen you can plug one in. We still don't know ram amounts so thaw moot for now. A laptop will be heavier and some will have the same problems. A arm tablet won't offer the same functions. A tablet plus laptop will cost a lot more.
Welp take it up with consumer reports
Good point. And knowing Samsung, they'll do it.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-...by-consumer-reports-amid-heating-reports.html
Doesn't sound to me like it needs a fan, they didn't even notice it without a thermal camera.
It's not like an iPad with Office. It's more like a TouchPad with Office. Or a large WP7 Pad with Office, if you prefer.
Depes on what holding it for a brief time amounts too
Let's not go crazy here, the new iPad runs slightly warmer than the older version when running a graphically intense game for almost an hour and most is localized near the GPU. It does not need a fan by any means.
I hope the cooling on the Surface will hold up as well. The second a tablet uses a fan I'm outta there.
I never said it needed a fan. I said it can use a fan. So now an I pads usage is limited to less than an hour while gaming ?
I... Uh... Huh? Wow.
It's more a thing of how solid a product is. The iPad is a super flat, cold piece of aluminium with no gaps, no vents, no noise, no moving parts, nothing. It's a completely inert slab of content.
I can only imagine how it must feel to wield a surface pro that's running some taxing x86 hardware. I don't want a loud, vibrating, blowing hotplate on my lap, it defeats the purpose of it being a tablet because I imagine it's wildly uncomfortable to use like that.
It would be like carrying around the business end of a hot and blowing macbook air.
It's not just the fans persé, it's the things I associate with them, and none of those I want in a tablet.
But who knows, maybe Microsoft has some wizardry going on with their cooling system. I'm just not holding my breath.
More than 5% of iPad sales
I will take sales as an indicator opposed to consumer reports. It wouldn't sell in such large quantities if heat was really a problem.
The iPad shuts down if it gets to hot. The article you linked to states it gets to hot to hold more than briefly and another poster said that happens with less than an hour of game play.
How many cars are sold a year that later are found to have defects and need service for it. How about the antenna problems with the iPhone?
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