yep, and that is my point
Microsoft Surface Tablet announced
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Of course they do. They just want them to make good ones.
At this point, I'm beginning to think MS is doing everything in their power to get out of the consumer OS wars and just move to the cloud altogether.
sidenote: any chance of finding out how much google charges for gaps from your insider?
The massive investment putting NT on ARM and developing WinRT and its brothers (WinRTP, etc) seems to say otherwise.
The entire 3 screens and the cloud strategy is based on cloud services used along with multiple consumer products. I'm not sure I'm following what you said?
It's weird to me that people think the manufacturers have any say in development of Windows RT devices. As if HP or Lenovo have a choice.
Everyone should go back and read this: http://blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/archive/...ndows-for-the-arm-processor-architecture.aspx
If HP was involved in the development of a Windows RT device in the first place, if Microsoft even approached them as a partner, then they wouldn't be saying anything about it, and they certainly wouldn't be acting like they can choose to start building Windows RT devices on a whim whenever they want to.
The investment on NT to ARM, to me, is about flattening the OS and hardware as they become more vertically integrated and take things in house. Rather than continuing a business based on licensed they seem to be converting over to what Apple and gaming consoles do best. Creating appliances with high profit margins. The 3 screen strategy only works with dedicated devices and not flexible computers.
It works fine with Windows 8 as well though.
But that said ... I'm not necessarily arguing against what you stated above. I was confused by what you meant when you stated "consumer OS" in the prior post.
I agree. The days where people buy OS's and hardware separately seem to be numbered. People expect OS as firmware these days, comes with the device and has free updates.
saltywalrus
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Tablet business is going to be the same as the PC business. Ruthless competition and tiny margins. If HP can't hack it then they can keep selling printers and overpriced ink.
I'm not sure if you're intentionally being obtuse or simply haven't been paying attention to the discussing ...
There's a huge difference between 'tiny margins' and zero or negative margins. Google is subsidizing this product - it's a loss leader. They've effectively killed off the market tier they entered.
saltywalrus
Member
Amazon killed it first. Also Samsung sells the Galaxy Tab 2 7.0 for $250 and it's been out for a while, they can probably cut the price. Or they can give up on tablets and rake in cash on phones.
Google doesn't control the market for tablets, they're just one player.
Hasn't Microsoft done the same thing, with the steep cost of the WindowsRT license? Isn't their tablet effectively subsidized as well since they don't have to pay for Windows?
I guess we have to wait to see the actual pricing on Surface, but most people's assumption is that the OS cost is not going to be inclusive in the price.
Quite possibly, though what does that have to do with what is being debated?
Regarding the RT license cost, yeah it seems steep - though it does include Office (it's mandatory). I'm not sure how it compares to Android. Logic says it's more, but I'm not sure by how much (tablet makers do have to pay for inclusion of the Google Play, as well as pay royalties to MS).
That said ...
... exactly. We don't know the price.
All we've heard is that RT will be 'competitive' with ARM devices. If that means iPad pricing, then it's possible even with the licensing costs there is room to compete. iPad has pretty significant margins.
Certainly for Surface Pro though, they're talking 'competitive' with Ultrabooks. Ultrabooks already have OS licensing built into the cost ... so there's obviously room for competition there if MS is to be believed.
Anywho, none of the above is really related to what I was arguing if you read back the discussion.
No. They have not.
As for the reported 85$ per license it's not really a fixed price everyone has to pay. I'll point you towards this article here. There's a paragraph on the 85$.
Of course it's going to cost something and I'd argue that it's worth quite a bit with both Windows and Office, but I wouldn't trust that once 85$ number just yet.
Also, I don't think that Microsoft will sell the Surface cheaper than OEM products just because they can.
Microsoft "has stated that its own hardware group would license Windows on the same terms as other OEM partners," Sherlund says in the note.
If I were an OEM I'd much rather compete with Surface than with the Nexus 7.
While that still doesn't guarantee they are required to actually profit from the device ... that's quite interesting.
Yeah, I'd argue Google has essentially killed off the entry-level tier for Android tablets (and no, I'm not including those $99 and less, shit-ass, 5 year old single-core, tablets running Android 2.x you see at Walgreens).
Actually if you take it a step further, they may have killed off 7" Android for the most part. I'm not sure there's really a market for a 'higher-end' 7" model for most consumers. In order to make a profit and offer enough features/performance to distance itself from the Nexus 7, I think OEM's would be getting too close to the 10" pricing threshold.
Microsoft is apparently only selling the Surface at their Retail stores and Online leaving other OEMs all of their normal retail channels plus AT&T etc... since the surface does not have any data plans that we know of. This is looking more and more like a one time deal to jump start Windows 8 to me. Of course if Microsoft is not satisfied with OEMs they can always continue the program (and even expand it easily since they already have those retail relationships in place with the Xbox, Keyboards etc..), but for now i think its only a one time deal.
They are separate divisions of the company, all with their own business plans, revenue, schedules, etc. ie. horizontally integrated.
This is a common practice in large business. Sometimes there are discounts, but it's not like can give things to each other for free. That would negatively impact the giver's financials.
saltywalrus
Member
At least Android offers more freedom to OEMs than Windows RT.
OEMs could always install BS bloatware like antivirus software or trial software in order to hit a lower price point. They can also install competing stores.
The $99 Xbox 360 w/ contract was also at Microsoft Stores only before expanding to Best Buy and Gamestop. I don't see why they would invest so heavily in the design of the Surface only to sell it at their own stores.
Surface might launch only at Microsoft stores initially but I would expect it to quickly expand to other retail stores if it's successful.
I'm not sure the Windows RT requirements specify what the OEMs can install. I presume the OEMs can still put anything they want on there.
Do any Android OEMs really install competing stores? If they did that google would just take away all the google apps such as maps or mail. Despite Android being free and open-source google has a pretty tight leash on the OEMs. The only way to escape is to completely replace google services like Amazon did when they forked Android for the Kindle Fire.
It may not be possible to replace the Windows market place, but apart from that Microsoft doesn't really try hard to lock everyone into their services. (like e.g. pushing google+ through Android by having it pre-installed and asking the user to log into google+ during the device setup...)
If at first you don't succeed ...
Also I find it amusing you're speaking to the benefits of bloatware. There's a reason why Nexus devices are popular. Though I understand that argument within this context (OEM's).
That said, as far as I know OEM's can install pre-install software. I don't think that has changed. They can still get subsidies from 3rd party software vendors. Regarding competing stores though, I think that's true. While Windows RT and WP8 support secondary stores for enterprise (in-house business software), I don't think companies can make competing public stores? Then again OEM and phone service providers actually can on phone, but I'm not sure if you mean something akin to Amazon or simply a special area for their own apps?
A full sized store really isn't relevant to OEM's though as they aren't the ones doing that on Android anyway. Service providers like Amazon and B&N are the ones doing that, and they end up making loss-leader products that are specifically targeted to forked versions of Android's OS. OEM's simply aren't in that business.
I hope it does. As long as they don't undercut OEMs on price (which they won't) there's not really a reason to complain. Just one more device to compete against that leaves more than enough room to differentiate.
That's my understanding.
Yep. It's not relevant to OEM's at all.
Well ... I'm pretty sure you need some sort of live ID like WP (hotmail, live, etc). MS is moving to a more service-oriented model, but it's not quite clear how that will materialize just yet.
Regardless, saltywalrus has been trolling this stuff up and down. He's now reached the point where he's just making shit up.
Samsung installs their own app store and media content stores on the Galaxy phones alongside the Google Suite of apps.
Google recently certified Kobo Vox, a rival device in the 7" category, to receive the Google Suite of apps.
Microsoft has their services (Bing!) preinstalled on the Windows Phones...
saltywalrus
Member
OEMs cannot create competing stores for Metro apps. I'm assuming they can on desktop Windows 8.
OEMs can preinstall competing stores on Android. Samsung preinstalls an app store, but it's pretty crappy right now. You can the web interface at http://www.samsungapps.com/ I'm not sure if any other OEMs have their own app stores.
What do you mean by a competing app store (as I'm not familiar with the Samsung one)?
Something like the Amazon App Store which is meant to replace Google Play ... or their own app store within the Marketplace?
If it's the former, as far as I know you are right. However the only OEM doing that is Samsung apparently (admittedly I didn't know they had bothered). If you mean the latter, that is supported on Windows RT and WP. The point is, an app store isn't a major concern for OEM's in general.
The important thing is they can pre-install software to lower costs. Also they can offer services if they want (ASUS cloud storage, etc).
saltywalrus
Member
Samsung app store is like the Amazon app store - outside of Google Play.
And your point? We get it ... you hate MS.
At this point your really just throwing shit at wall hoping something will stick, getting shot down, and then throwing more shit. Rinse and repeat. You're making it quite difficult for people to take you seriously when the majority of what you post is either logically or factually incorrect.
Basically you're trying to hard.
At this point your really just throwing shit at wall hoping something will stick, getting shot down, and then throwing more shit. Rinse and repeat. You're making it quite difficult for people to take you seriously when the majority of what you post is either logically or factually incorrect.
Basically you're trying to hard.
You asked him some questions, he answered?
There was that one case where an Android OEM just wanted to use a non-google navigation software (can't remember which exactly) and google wouldn't let them. They wouldn't have been allowed to use any of the other google apps. So they had to drop that app.
Sure, you need a Microsoft account, but they don't push you to use anything else. Setting up a Google Nexus you of course also have to enter a google account, but if you don't have google+ yet it will ask you to create a google+ account and the google+ app will be right on the home screen. (even worse: if you create a google account now you'll automatically also get a google+ account...)
I believe that, if Microsoft used Windows to lock people into their ecosystem in the same way google uses Android, they'd be fucked. It would have bigger consequences than their inclusion of IE, which brought them 10 years of anti-trust issues.
saltywalrus
Member
It was called Skyhook. Some good info was released due to their lawsuit against Google.
http://www.theverge.com/2011/05/12/google-android-skyhook-lawsuit-motorola-samsung/
Really good reading if you want to learn about how Google controls Android devices. Unfortunately there's probably all kinds of shady agreements between Google/carriers/OEMs that we won't ever be able to see unless another lawsuit is filed.
As Raistlin said, that's in line with how Microsoft does it. On Windows Phone ever OEM gets it's own section in the store accessible only from devices of that OEM.
If Samsung wanted to just use their own store or maybe use the Amazon store as a replacement for the play store, they'd lose access to all google apps and services.
Of course they don't want to kill 'competing' products. They want there to be as many Android devices as possible. But if someone want those google apps they have to follow google's rules or they won't get them.
I always hate it when people in reviews (I don't mean you) complain that they are forced to use bing and can't just switch to google. It just doesn't work that way. Bing in WP is not just a website that could easily be exchanged for google. It's deeply integrated into Windows Phone and does things you wouldn't just get by redirecting to google.com. Not only does it offer things like local scout, music search, and visual search, but it is also aware of Windows Phone apps. When you search for certain things it can show you Windows Phone apps that are relevant to the search term. Of course there's also the UI for searches which is a Windows Phone pivot control.
There's no way to just replace it.
People can still use google search via the google search app or the browser...
lol yes ... that's what's going on here ...
The problem with andriod is its fake openess .
up until amazon forked andriod things were good but now you have google who is on andriod 4.1 and you have amazon which is on andriod 2.2. Its not to huge of a diffrence yet as only 2 years of progress seperate them. But now samsung has its own store, what happens when samsung decides its store has enough support and forks andriod again.
When this happens you can have amazon on 2.2 , samsung on 5.2 and google on 7.1 . Don't forget all those on diffrent levels at that point they will prob be on 5.x through 7.x just because they bought a phone at a diffrent time.
Now you have one OS with 3 diffrent levels of advancement each with its own eco system. Obviously targeting for 2.2 will get you the largest customer base. But you'll miss out on advancements in 5.2 and 7.1. Andriod is juts going to get more and more fragmented .
up until amazon forked andriod things were good but now you have google who is on andriod 4.1 and you have amazon which is on andriod 2.2. Its not to huge of a diffrence yet as only 2 years of progress seperate them. But now samsung has its own store, what happens when samsung decides its store has enough support and forks andriod again.
When this happens you can have amazon on 2.2 , samsung on 5.2 and google on 7.1 . Don't forget all those on diffrent levels at that point they will prob be on 5.x through 7.x just because they bought a phone at a diffrent time.
Now you have one OS with 3 diffrent levels of advancement each with its own eco system. Obviously targeting for 2.2 will get you the largest customer base. But you'll miss out on advancements in 5.2 and 7.1. Andriod is juts going to get more and more fragmented .
THe 7 inch nexus exists for a single reason and that is to kill the fire. Google knows that a split base with amazon out on its own will greatly harm andriod
Amazon wasn't the problem, it was already bad. Something like 40% of all Android devices are on GB and it's hard enough to get people to buy Android apps in the first place so you can't just say "screw them." There's also a huge problem getting updates because they are late, incompatible or blocked by carriers/OEMs. Real people aren't going to root their machines either.
I think people are still a bit too caught up in Amazon forking Android. It's not Android anymore, it's the Kindle Fire OS. Some apps do work but it's more likely to become a cleaner split as Amazon updates it. If you are a developer you should target Kindle Fire specifically because much like Apple they'll probably deprecate old devices and push updates to new ones so it should be a pretty stable ecosystem and it's a huge market.
The big problem for Google is that most of their activations are on old, cheap devices. They might get a million a day but it does nothing to further the OS. They will either need to nip that and start deprecating faster or the main Android branch is probably going to become irrelevant outside of the Nexus line.
The thing with that was even with a large % of andriod devices on GB those basicly had a 2 year death clock. Now amazon is going to keep 2.2 or whatever kindle is on alive for years to come and your wrong , it does matter as developers are going to want to exist on both stores . The fire is selling better than any andriod tablet to date and while the nexus may offer it some competition a new kindle fire will be out in the fall taking away any type of spec advantage .
Barnes and noble was smart to go with MS , a windows 8 tablet at 7 inches will most likely have its own niche to fill as it doesn't seem like MS or anyone else wants to make a wart device like that . So barnes and noble can live happly with its windows 8 e-reader / tablet and not have to worry about google directly competing against it.
What the hell? Lol.
They just demoed it four days ago...it hasn't even hit AOSP.
Android hasn't gotten more and more fragmented. The version history split has remained relatively the same throughout.
You're like the MS bizarro version of rezuth.
ICS has been out for what half a year now and its on what less than 8% of andriod devices. Gingerbread is still increasing at a rapid rate and now we have jelly bean launching soon.
Andriod is a huge fragmented mess that will only become more so in the future
windows 8 will stay as windows 8 for the next 3 years
Theres no dispute that android always has various versions out at one time. They are interoperable and not wholy separate versions. Nothing has changed in regards to the incidence of versions so no , Android is not getting "more and more" fragmented. Releae cycles are stil six months apart as they were from the beginning.
Windows spends three+ years in development working hand in hand with OEMS, its no surprise their implementation is smoother. Its also no secret that MS is strong arming them with expensive licenses while turning around and releasing a competing product.
In early 2010 we had andriod 1.1 , 1.5 ,1.6 ,2.0 , 2.0.1 2.1 and they were pretty evenly split
Thats 6 verisons of andriod
Here we go through march of 2012
Here we have 11 verisons and andriod 2.3.3 is the largest verison of andriod at this point in time and its not even counting the break down of all all the diffrent 2.3.x viersons they compress it all into the same one.
Just over 1% of users are still on pre 2.0 andriod and it looks like it will be a long while before 2.2/2.3 goes away if it ever does. Remember the kindle fire is still out there selling
saltywalrus
Member
Adoption of ICS has been much slower than Gingerbread. Android Police has some data on the speed of update adoption. http://www.androidpolice.com/2012/04/27/the-big-android-chart-a-definitive-history-of-android-version-adoption/
According to their data, each update gets slower adoption.
I can't tell if your making an arguement for less or more fragmentation.
In early 2010 we had andriod 1.1 , 1.5 ,1.6 ,2.0 , 2.0.1 2.1 and they were pretty evenly split
Thats 6 verisons of andriod
Here we go through march of 2012
Here we have 11 verisons and andriod 2.3.3 is the largest verison of andriod at this point in time and its not even counting the break down of all all the diffrent 2.3.x viersons they compress it all into the same one.
Just over 1% of users are still on pre 2.0 andriod and it looks like it will be a long while before 2.2/2.3 goes away if it ever does. Remember the kindle fire is still out there selling
Looks to me like everything is consolidated better.
Honeycomb was never availabe on AOSP. ICS was released more than a year apart and was a major OS revamp, hence the slower adoption.
even better data.
The problem with andriod is the shear amount of updates and the unwillingness for device makers to upgrade the phones.
ICS has been out since I believe december in the states and I still only know of the galaxy nexus that has it. We are now all waiting for jelly bean and the question i have to ask is how many devices will have it before we are all waiting on nerds or whatever is after
He is right , just because there is a 10 inch surface doesn't mean that competitors can't sell 7 inch or 12 inch tablets. Or include or exclude certian features.
MS needs to make their own hardware because Windows is an amazing product when its not brought down by the crapp that HP and others put on over windows.
MS needs to make their own hardware because Windows is an amazing product when its not brought down by the crapp that HP and others put on over windows.
They don't have to pay $105 per OS license.
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